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LAX
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The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Sun Apr 22, 2001 8:12 pm

If you had to pick just one vehicle for the best in history, what do you think it would be?

Any Edsel fans among us??  Smile/happy/getting dizzy  Wow!  Wink/being sarcastic
 
ryanb741
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Sun Apr 22, 2001 8:16 pm

Thrust SSC.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Superfly
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Sun Apr 22, 2001 8:27 pm

1977 Lincoln Town Car.






I have one!
The best car ever!  Big thumbs up
7.5 liter, 460 cu" V8 engine. 4 barrel carb.
Body on frame construction, rear-wheel drive American luxury sedan.
Seats six passengers very comfortably.
Quadraphonic 8track player AM/FM stereo.
Power everything!
Power glass moonroof.
Cruise control
Automatic headlights.

The bright lights shut off for on coming traffic and resumes once they've passed!
Parts are very cheap and affordable.
Very reliable car.

The best!  Big thumbs up
Bring back the Concorde
 
Superfly
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Sun Apr 22, 2001 8:34 pm



I forgot to include an instrument panel photo of the legendary 1977 Lincoln Town Car!
Bring back the Concorde
 
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LAX
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Sun Apr 22, 2001 8:47 pm

Nice car Superfly!
I'm partial to the Olsmobile Cutlass (1981 thru 1988 versions). Great-looking classic!  Wow!
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Sun Apr 22, 2001 11:32 pm

Henry Ford's Model T...first car for the masses.
It's the DC-3 of the automobile world. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
Thom@s
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Mon Apr 23, 2001 12:17 am

the Mini Morris and the VW Beetle. Big grin

Thom@s
"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
 
Guest

RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Mon Apr 23, 2001 1:41 am

1973 BMW 2002 tii
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Mon Apr 23, 2001 4:38 am

VW Beetle (not the new one!)
 
Guest

RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Mon Apr 23, 2001 8:20 am

Just one? You can't pick just one! There are so many criteria, and you don't want the spirit of (Sir!) Alec Issigonis, Dante Giacosa or Ferry Porsche chasing after you at night.  Big thumbs up
 
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RayChuang
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Mon Apr 23, 2001 8:43 am

When it comes to the most influential automobiles in history, I suggest the following models:

1. The Ford Model T
2. The FIAT 500 Topolino
3. The original Volkswagen Beetle
4. The BMC Mini
5. The first-generation Honda Civic CVCC
6. The first-generation Volkswagen Golf/Rabbit

All of these models are true people's cars that brought automotive ownership to the masses.

The Honda Civic CVCC is included because it was a major breakthrough in terms of engine design, and the Golf defined the modern FWD small car, more so than the Mini.
 
twa
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:49 am

1969 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 427.

-Trans World Airlines
 
tim
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Mon Apr 23, 2001 11:55 am

Definently the FORD T

Tim

 
xtristarx
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Tue Apr 24, 2001 4:15 am

for me it is the between 77 and 84 buildt volvo 264 gl, and all the early 740/760 models.
2. saab 900
3. lexus
 
sccutler
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Tue Apr 24, 2001 7:25 am

Spare me all those lame excuses listed above.

Gotta be the AMC PACER!

Wayne and Garth, Party ON!
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
AgnusBymaster
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Tue Apr 24, 2001 8:21 am

The Yugo!
 
n4khgirl
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Tue Apr 24, 2001 11:24 pm

definately the Mercedes Gelaendewagen

 Smile

*Camille
 
Guest

RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Tue Apr 24, 2001 11:49 pm

Aston Martin DB7-selling cheaply in Saudi Arabia!!!!

My father bought the Vantage Volante in Riyadh for only GPB57k!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy  Smile/happy/getting dizzy  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

(RRP=GBP100K+!!)

*Pure British style*




 
Guest

RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Wed Apr 25, 2001 5:47 am

I'll have to agree with RayChuang on the selections. The names I mentioned (Dante Giacosa, etc.) were tied with these cars. A lot of modern car engineering were pioneered by these cars.

Frankly speaking, very few Japanese vehicles have reached the level of greatness, and that's more so everyday, even with European cars.

Now, regardless of achievement, here's the list of cars that fascinate me:

Citroen DS
Nissan Skyline (R32 only)
Subaru Legacy
Mazda Millenia (R.I.P. Eunos/Amati/Xedos!)
Toyota Vista Ardeo





Probably Cord/Deusenberg/Auburn too? Wonder what if they're still with us today Big grin
 
NKP S2
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:41 am

1964-1972 Pontiac GTO. Any of the big-inch fire breathing GM "A" body cars from that same era really, but goats were always my favorite.
 
Adam84
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Wed Apr 25, 2001 8:53 am

It has got to be the Honda Civic. It has survived almost 30 years, while still being a bestseller. Now what other car has been a best seller since it was introduced in the 70's? Honda has pioneered alot of things like the Civic CVCC, VTEC-E, Civic VTEC-E Lean Burn, and the Continuously Variable Transmission. All of these were first introduced in the US on Civics.
 
Guest

RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Wed Apr 25, 2001 9:22 am

Now, I love the Civic for the most part, but let me explain why lean burn is something that's better off left in the laboratories.

The typical fuel-to-air mix ratio for gasoline engines is 1 : 14.7. In other words, you use 14.7 whatever units of air to combust 1 of gasoline. If your foot is heavy on the gas pedal, the amount of gasoline increases sometimes (probably 13 : 1).

Lean burn refers to any fuel-to-air ratio that uses less fuel than 14.7 : 1. However there are problems. At a ratio of 17-18 : 1 there will be excessive nitrous oxides (NOx) made, and if you go up to 22-25 : 1 you'd have trouble igniting the fuel-air mixture. So you've got to find ways to stir up a vortex in the cylinders. Even if you combust very well at a very lean ratio, torque will be relatively thin. Therefore, if the driver's heavy on the gas pedal, you need to be able to shift back to 14.7.

On the way back to 14.7, you'll go through the 17-18 stage all over again. Also, when you shift between ANY fuel-air mix ratios, you will experience changes in engine torque at the same engine speed. It takes an awful lot of fine tuning to make this pleasant and usable in reality.

Mitsubishi developed MVV first, and then based on its work went on to develop GDI as a way of making lean burn work. However, have you noticed how there are no GDI-equipped models in their US lineup? It could be that they couldn't get it to clear the emission laws.

Even Honda itself has benefitted from sticking to 14.7:1. IIRC all their LEV engines don't fiddle around with lean burn at all.

Also, if you recycle too much exhaust into the cylinders hoping to increase efficiency, the torque could suffer. Mazda had a real hard time tuning their diluted burn engines that never made it outside Japan.
 
Adam84
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Wed Apr 25, 2001 10:00 am

Thats where the E in VTEC comes in though, it changes the cam profile to the point where the car is only operating on 3 valves, with the 4th intake valve opening slightly, the result of this 3 valve operation is an excellent swirling effect. I think on the Lean Burn engines, they have a totally differnt catalytic converter to reduce the NOx to acceptable levels, also I think the Lean burn only goes as high as 18:1 and is only in effect during idle situations and when you are driving with a very very light foot. Im not positive but the 3 valve operation is usually only in situations when lean burn is in effect, and maybe in effect longer than lean burn under acceleration. They have reached a milestone with the VTEC-E Lean Burn on the Civic HX, with some 40 some odd mpg all around yet still producing decent HP and Torque. Not something crazy like the Geo Metro and not having to resort to Diesel.
 
Superfly
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Adam84

Wed Apr 25, 2001 10:18 am

Adam84, whats wrong with Diesel?
I used to have a 1981 Volkswagon Rabbit and a 1980 VW Dasher. Both were Diesel powered.
They were great little cars.
50 mpg and exempt from smog/emmissions testing.
They were gutless but reliable and cheap wheels.
Now matter how much engineering you put into a little 4cylinder, you can never achieve the same power and tourque that a V8 can produce.

Bring back the Concorde
 
Adam84
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Wed Apr 25, 2001 10:44 am

I dont know what diesels are like nowadays but from what I have seen (my mother used to drive a 1986 Mercedes 300D) they are very underpowered (her Turbo 300D did 0-60 in about 18 seconds or so), they are impossible in cold climates, they are noisy and they put out quite a few pollutants. The only good thing about them though is the fact that they can actually run on practically anything, my father had some VW diesel way back when and he told me he would carry a jug of vegetable oil around in the trunk for if he ever ran out of gas.

About the thing 4cyl vs. 6 & 8cyl, you may not be able to have as much hp or torque as an 8cyl but you still have a chance of beating them in a race. My b/f's Acura Integra has outrun Mustangs and Camaros many many times, the sad thing though is the fact that he was once outrun by a Cadillac Seville. But I digress.
 
MrFord
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:52 pm

I think the Mustang is one of the best, but the Ford Contour is THE best one !  Smile/happy/getting dizzy





And my mother's car, a '95 Mercury Mystique  Smile


Etienne
"For radar identification throw your jumpseat rider out the window."
 
OO-AOG
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:58 pm

Porsche 911
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
hailstone
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Wed Apr 25, 2001 10:13 pm

for me it is a tossup between

the ford t
the vw beetle
the citroen 2cv
 
cfalk
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Wed Apr 25, 2001 10:27 pm

My Grandmother, who recently died, had a 1961 Facel-Vega HK500 in her garage, which she bought new. I might end up owning it. It's in mint condition, except for a steering mechanism component which we are trying to find.

Facel Vega was a french attempt at Aston-Martin level prestige automobiles. Hand made, very expensive. The engine was a Chrysler 392 Hemi.



I absolutely adored this car since I was a kid.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:16 am

Nice car Cfalk!

My favorite is our 1992 Buick Park Avenue.
 
Guest

RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:20 am

Anything rolling out from Stutgart Germany!!!
 
Guest

The Trabant!

Thu Apr 26, 2001 11:28 am

"Powered by a two-cylinder, two-stroke engine, which produced approximately 28 horsepower, the Trabant's body consisted of compressed plastic and cotton panels attached to a galvanized steel chassis. The citizens of East Berlin often had to wait eight years or more to get one of these small vehicles."

Yeah......buddy!
 
Guest

TRABANT--Maybe I Should Show A Picture

Thu Apr 26, 2001 11:33 am




Nice, huh?
 
Guest

A Real Car!

Thu Apr 26, 2001 11:36 am



69 GOAT.
 
Guest

One Last Real Car

Thu Apr 26, 2001 11:40 am

 
Guest

RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Thu Apr 26, 2001 2:23 pm

Adam84, you're completely relying on what Honda has to say about VTEC-E. If you have seen real life figures in fuel consumption, you will definitely think twice about lean burn.

The technology for catalysts that temporarily absorb NOx are not completely mature yet. Also, with lean burn, car makers usually use low rolling resistance tires that in reality compromise grip severely.

Because of the load issue,

Now, Diesel.

Volkswagen and others have developed Diesel engines that use commonrail injection. This is a very high pressure system that allows for electronic control of fuel injection into the cylinders.

On paper, commonrail has these advantages:
- reduces Diesel-unique "whines" when pilot injection is applied;
- greatly cuts down on black smoke to virtually none;
- Greatly cuts down on NOx

Adam, you gotta realize that by nature, Diesel engines have less horsepower than gasoline but have much better torque, especially at low revs.

In real life, VW's TDI Diesel engines have achieved fuel consumption figures as good as the elaborately hi-tech Toyota Prius. Most of Europe's "3-litre cars" (on average runs 100km on 3 litre fuel) use Diesel engines, because Diesel is in practicality the only usable choice when you want real fuel efficiency.

Up to 50% of European passenger car sales comprise of Diesel-engined cars. These engines are not the ones you recall seeing - these are the latest commonrail Diesel engines that are pretty much as clean as gasoline engines, with better efficiency and torque.
 
Guest

RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Thu Apr 26, 2001 2:33 pm

Adam, in case you are wondering, I have read technical papers on VTEC-E and MVV on the year they were announced - 1991, so I know how they work. I just skipped the part because I assume you know the lowdown on the technology.

The swirling effect is supposed to be enough to make the "thin" fuel/air mixture combust, but in reality it demands a lot of development. Even after thousands of hours of CAE, it's not guaranteed to be very effective.

There are lots of ways to create swirls - closing a valve, "sculpturing" the piston surface or intake port, and so on. But so far they have yielded limited results. Once you need even the slightest, boom - the engine goes back to 14.7 : 1. Very few ordinary drivers have the delicate footwork needed to maximize the benefits of lean burn.

And if your lean burn is only in effect on very light loads or idle, you're not really saving much at all. Might as well install an idle engine shut off system, you'd save more that way.

The latest European Diesel engines are over a decade ahead of Japanese technology in the same field. Now, the current mayor of Tokyo is working on banning and phasing out all Diesel-engined vehicles, based on the same argument you made on Diesel. He certainly hasn't seen TDI at work.
 
Superfly
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Stratifier & Adam84

Thu Apr 26, 2001 3:15 pm

You do raise more good points about Diesel engines.
It is a shame that societies attitude towards Diesel is based on sound and appearance of black smoke.
Diesel is the most efficient fuel on the market.
As I stated before, my 1981 VW Rabbit Diesel got 50 mpg! and was exempt from smog.
When your concerned about gas milage, horsepower should be a non-issue. If you want power, V8 or 12 is the only option.
Honda boast about there new little toy that revs up to 9000 rpms!
I think it's a piece of junk! Why would you want to rev your engine that high for marginal hp? An engine can't last that long either reving that high.
I wish Ford, GM or Chrysler would have developed a successful Diesel powered 'small car'. The pick-ups by the 'big 3', Diesels are awsome!

Adam84
About the thing 4cyl vs. 6 & 8cyl, you may not be able to have as much hp or torque as an 8cyl but you still have a chance of beating them in a race. My b/f's Acura Integra has outrun Mustangs and Camaros many many times, the sad thing though is the fact that he was once outrun by a Cadillac Seville. But I digress.

That dosen't suprise me at all. Even though Camaros and Mustangs come with V8s, most are only V6s which put out 200hp, V8s put out 305-320hp. They are a lot heavier than your car and your car puts out close to 200hp. Now for the Cadillac Seville. That car is a monster!
It comes with a 300 hp Northstar V8 engine. Despite the size of the Seville, it's relativly lightweight.
Don't even thinkl about challenging that beauty!  Smile  Smile



Bring back the Concorde
 
JohnFKelly
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Thu Apr 26, 2001 4:30 pm

The BMW Isetta...it's as comfortable as coach class on any major airline!
 
Adam84
Posts: 1368
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 1999 6:10 pm

RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Thu Apr 26, 2001 6:22 pm

Stratifier:

The problem with diesels is the fact that they are pretty much coming nonexistent in the US nowadays. I think the only diesels in cars you can get are in VW/Audi. I dont think Mercedes sells diesels over here anymore. Then there are the Ford and Dodge trucks. Also, if the TDI technology has made diesel emissions comparable to gasoline engines then why cant you get diesels in California still? I know Volkswagen doesnt make their diesels available to California buyers.

Superfly:

The thing about the Integra putting out almost 200hp is b/s. Even Honda knows it. They rate the car 170 net hp which is right off the crankshaft, there is a loss of about 30hp between the engine and the wheel. All because Honda for some reason decided to be rebels and flip the engine around so it faces backwards. I have read many dyno tests on Integra GS-R's that have had many many expensive modifications (more aggresive cams, higher compression ratios, modified exhaust, etc.) that can only produce around 150hp at the wheel and only about 120 lb./ft torque. So I would hate to see what kind of figures his unmodified car would have. But hey, what can you do.


 
portcolumbus
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RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Fri Apr 27, 2001 10:02 am

A NASCAR Chevy Monte Carlo of course. Sleek, fast, good acceleration. 700hp+
 
Guest

RE: The Best Automobile In History; What Would It Be?

Sat Apr 28, 2001 9:39 am

Adam, it happens a lot. The Japanese are often selling technologies that in practice don't work as it should. Often they fall short of comparable technologies from American or European makes.

An issue is that Ferdinand Piech, the current VW group chairman, has been pushing for more superficial values in order to make business work. A lot of critics have pointed out a fall of engineering quality for VW and Audi under his command. Some might say, for VW (I assume you understand what volkswagen means) to become a luxury brand. Isn't it ironic? A little too ironic...

A lot of peeps think those two Dr. Porsches would be so pissed upon seeing what their grandson, Piech, has done to the business. *winks*

The usual power and torque figures are run off a chassis dynamo at full load. You just rev the engine up at 100rpm increments, and plot a graph. This is the performance you get if you floor the gas pedal and use only the brakes to control speed.

In practice, there are the so called "transient" characteristics of an engine's torque curve. You can't see this on a full-power test curve, but these are what determines the actual usable performance.

You know, all other things equal, if you increase the bore of the throttle, you get a larger horsepower figure. But that isn't necessarily related to the real performance on the road.
 
NKP S2
Posts: 1665
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 3:16 am

DC9 Capt

Sat Apr 28, 2001 12:45 pm

Is that your '69 GTO convertable? Is it a Ram Air car? Can't see the decals from the picture. Looks nice...1969 is my favorite year GTO. Is the '70 Boss 429 yours too? Those things are as rare as hen's teeth.

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