Matt D
Topic Author
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

Another Racist Police Shooting

Wed May 09, 2001 4:47 am

Here is a story that the Orange County Register put out. It's just too good to pass up. Here is the story, with my comments afterwards:

By OLIVIA HAWKINSON
The Orange County Register

HUNTINGTON BEACH - Oak View residents marched to the Police Department's front door Monday, screaming for answers about the shooting death of a teen-ager armed with a toy rifle.

Oak View is 98 percent Hispanic and the city's poorest neighborhood. About 200 residents walked several miles from the community of newer immigrants to the Civic Center on Main Street. They marched in packs along Beach Boulevard, waving homemade cardboard signs and chanting, "We want justice."

Police said it was the first time they could remember such a rally on their doorstep. Oak View residents said they were acting on years of frustration over what they called police mistreatment of Hispanic youths.

"That officer needs to explain why he killed Antonio," said friend Anai Aguilara, 16. "Why? Because he's Mexican? He was barely 18. He was starting to live his life."

A police officer shot Antonio H. Saldivar early Saturday after the teen led police on a foot chase to Ash Street and then pointed what appeared to be a rifle at the officer, police said.

The Orange County Sheriff's Department, which investigates officer-involved shootings in Huntington Beach, confirmed Monday that a toy rifle was recovered from the scene of the shooting.

Sheriff's Sgt. Steve Doan described the toy as a 20-inch-long rifle with a wood stock and a blue steel barrel. He said investigators are unsure whether Saldivar carried the toy or grabbed it off the driveway where he was shot.

A neighbor told The Orange County Register on Saturday that her 5-year-old son left a brown toy rifle overnight in their driveway where Saldivar was shot.

Police said Saldivar was seen after 1 a.m. peering into a pickup four blocks from his home. Saldivar ran when officers approached to see what he was doing, police said.

Saldivar's sister and a family friend talked with police for almost an hour inside the department lobby Monday while neighbors and friends rallied outside the locked glass doors. The sister, Susanna Campos, emerged with red eyes and called for change.

"All of us Mexicans are not going to have faith in the police until justice is done," Campos said in Spanish. "That officer needs to look at me. I have a lot of pain. My brother never had a gun."

The Sheriff's Department will gather evidence and present it to the Orange County District Attorney's Office, said Huntington Beach Lt. Chuck Thomas. The city's professional standards department will conduct a separate investigation, Thomas said.

He said the department would work with the Mexican Consulate to try to help Saldivar's family return his body to Puebla, Mexico, for burial.

"His sister stressed to me that the folks out there don't trust the police department," Thomas said, looking out at the crowd. "We have to do our part to repair that. That's the only way we can truly serve the community."


While it's certainly unfortunate that who might be an innocent person was killed, let's take a look at just two things.

First, and I quote:

"Oak View is 98 percent Hispanic and the city's poorest neighborhood."

Exactly how is that relevant to this story? Why is it than whenever someone bites the dust, the press needs to interject with a statistic like that. Is that supposed to convey some kind of sympathy factor from the reader-especially since is seems that the unspoken message here is that "another evil white cop killed a (politically correct and protected) minority"?

Ms Saldivar: You are looking for a reason for the killing of your brother, well you don't need a lengthy investigation. I can tell you right now why he was killed, in just 5 words: HE RAN FROM THE POLICE.

Period. Anyone should know by now that anyone who flees a police officer is immediately labelled as suspicious. Plus, what was he doing lurking behind cars at 1AM?

Ms. Aguilera: Race had little or nothing to do with it. Again, to answer your question: HE RAN FROM THE POLICE.

Second: Now I have a question for all of you:

Exactly what was he running from in the first place at 1AM? If it turns out that he was carrying a toy rifle, can any of you tell me why?

As far as I am concerned, this man committed his own suicide. Even though he didn't pull the trigger on the gun that killed him, the facts remain that he DID flee police. He was engaging in suspicious behavior. And he might have been carrying a toy gun. Toy or not, anyone with any ounce of common knows that 1. you don't run away from police 2. at 1AM 3. carrying an object that in the dark (or even the kight for that matter) resembles a weapon. As far as I am concerned, the Huntington Beach police acted exactly as they were trained to.
Why don't all of you protestors stop worrying about the cops for a minute, and go back and teach your people a little common sense and intelligence. Maybe then, senseless shootings like this will finally become a rarity. The police should not have to loosen their standards because of your substandard intellect.
Someone needs to change here, and as far as I'm concerned it will not and should not be the police. This is all especially true in immigrant communities such as this one.

Otherwise, you have no one but yourselved to blame.
 
An-225
Posts: 3859
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RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Wed May 09, 2001 4:54 am

No surprise to hear it from you, Matt D. It's another shoot first - ask questions later. There was a case about a NYC teen who was gunned down because he was flashing a silver object - a wrapper to a 3 musketeers chocolate bar that he was about to eat.
Money does not bring you happiness. But it's better to cry in your own private limo than on a cold bus stop.
 
Matt D
Topic Author
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Wed May 09, 2001 5:01 am

Flashing a candy bar wrapper at a cop and then getting shot IS an abomination, I agree. But that is not what happened here. Again, with all due respect, you are only seeing what you want to see and not looking at the whole picture.

This gentleman fled the police, which as far as I know is a criminal offense in and of itself.
 
JetService
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RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Wed May 09, 2001 5:02 am

Be careful gang. If a crook points objects that resemble a gun, do you think you would 'double-check' before firing? Imagine how scary that is to have what appears to be a weapon pointed at you. You're f#*king life would flash before your eyes. Think about it. Try to avoid the hind-site. That's too easy.

An-225, shoot first, ask questions later. Good advise when a weapon is pointed at you. Excellent advise.
"Shaddap you!"
 
USAirways737
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RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Wed May 09, 2001 5:51 am

What do you expect the cop to do when he was just led on chase and then had a gun (even though it was fake) pointed at you. Admit it, you would not stand there and examine it while the person could possibly shoot you. In my mind the person was asking to be shot (not neccesarily needed to be) when he ran away from the cop.

A word of advice, dont run from the cops, and especially dont point anything that could be presumed to be a gun (even a silver wrapped candy bar) at them. If you follow these two steps, you're guaranteed to not be shot.

 
coboeing777
Posts: 677
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RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Wed May 09, 2001 7:24 am

hey if you don't run from the cops in the first place you have the problem of waking up dead now would you? It really pisses me off how everyone jumps on the cops when something.People seem to act like cops go out everyday with the intent to shoot people. Hey! lets see how many kills we can get today!!! woo hoo. I dont think so. Trust me they don't. that is the last thing they want to do. When you have 2 seconds to react....you do just that...react...and thats what cops are trained to do.They can't say hey, let me hit the pause button, and think for a minute. It doesnt work that way people. I've been considering becoming a police officer but lately have been having second thoughts. Not because I am afraid of the job itself, but more so being afraid of all the legal bullshit I might have to deal with because of events that take place in a matter of seconds. Right away everything is a racial incident. People know nothing about the circumstances but all they know is the cops are wrong. Why? Cause everyone is a freakin lawyer these days. They know EVERYTHING. Give me a break. Well, Im done griping now or else I will be here all day typing....

Joe
 
Matt D
Topic Author
Posts: 8907
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RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Wed May 09, 2001 7:38 am

Agreed COBoeing777.

It's people like An225 that like to stir up trouble by distorting the facts and not showing the whole picture.

Probably the best time this smokescreen diversionary tactic was used was back in 1991 when Rodney King was clubbed like a pinata.

Everyone saw that tape and talked about how "horrible" and "cruel" the LAPD was. The ACLU and other evil organizations did a fantastic job of making the LAPD out to be the bad guys by not showing the whole story.

Of course what none of these people commented on was what led up to the beating in the first place-namely Mr. King taking the police on a high speed goose chase at 1AM while driving on a suspended license while intoxicated. Funny how the ACLU 'failed' to address that. They just put out announcement after announcement about how "racist" the LAPD was for its officers engaging in "racially motivated random beatings" like that.

Yeah, those 4 officers were bored, and had nothing to do that night. So they picked out the first black man they could find, pulled him over, and beat him senselessly for no reason other than the color of his skin.
That's what happened, right?

The ACLU and NAACP would love to have you think so.

The only mistake that the LAPD was not taking him down to the precinct house, and administering justice there.

Once they had ol' Rodney surrounded, they should've given him a cup of coffee, gently assisted him into the backseat of the patrol car, calmy driven down to the police station, taken Mr King into the basement AND THEN beat him to a pulp, and then give him $.20 to call a taxi to get home. No cameras. No subsequent rioting or pillaging. Justice is served.

isn't it interesting how many times the black communities "hero" was arrested since the beating?

Of course, as expected, they have no comment on that.
 
An-225
Posts: 3859
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RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Wed May 09, 2001 8:47 am

All of you racists out there - you definitely will not justify your actions.
Money does not bring you happiness. But it's better to cry in your own private limo than on a cold bus stop.
 
copper1
Posts: 427
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RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Wed May 09, 2001 10:00 am

As someone who has been to the well of making split second shoot/don't shoot decisions I can tell you that no-one else that I am aware of on this site has the slightest idea of what it is like.

While my sympathies go the the family of the deceased man there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this person was shot dead as a result of his own foolish actions.

It would seem to me that if there is a large degree of mistrust of the Police and they are seen to be racist murderers, then one should be 100 times as aware that pointing anything at a Police Officer, especially after being chased, is only going to get you shot.

Again, I feel badly for the family of the man who has been killed but the vast majority of my sympathy and my thoughts go to the Officer who shot this individual. He will no doubt be served up as a Political sacrifice until cleared by a court of law.


" Proud to Wear the Blue, Proud to Serve "


 
Matt D
Topic Author
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RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Wed May 09, 2001 10:03 am

Copper1:

I couldn't agree with you more.
 
coboeing777
Posts: 677
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RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Wed May 09, 2001 10:40 am

copper1, you can't say that no one else here has had to face that decisions. Although I can not say that I have had to make any decisions like that, my dad whose is a 28 yr veteran of the force has, and so has my uncle. Because of them I have much respect for all police. Sure there are dicks out there, but like you said, people look at cops like murderers these days whihc really pisses me off. Especially since I am considering joining the force. I recently took the test and scored a 97.5 so its just a matter of time before I get called. but all this media hoopla over cops doing their jobs is really getting to me. I think I'll just stick to getting my A & P
 
deltaflyertoo
Posts: 1479
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 3:18 pm

RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Wed May 09, 2001 11:58 am

You guys should have seen the tv footage of this. LA's local NBC station, KNBC, goes to the scene and interviews some people in the community. This one woman has the nerve to get on camera and say, "the police around here are always around, they are always harrassing......what happened here was....was....was RACISM! That is what it was, racism, the cops here are racists!" POOOOLLLLEAAAAASSSEEE! I should have remembered....in southern California, if you run from the cops, refuse to surrendor in that they have to jump on you or aim a weapon at them and they defend themselves, the cops will always be racists pigs.
 
VirginA340
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RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Wed May 09, 2001 12:27 pm

Maybe it's about time those protestors should shut the hell up and see how it's like to be in the officers shoes. Hey it's dark tyhere is someone pointing something at you despite yelling "Police; Drop it!!!" more than once but yet the suspect is still pointing the object at you and it looks like he/she is going to fire.

It's either you or the suspect and let me tell you that it's hard for them too but they had a job to execute and they do it; They're job is to take those off the street on who is a danger to themselves and others around them. There is so much one can do. Bear in mind that most police are not trigger happy.
"FUIMUS"
 
copper1
Posts: 427
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 10:26 am

RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Wed May 09, 2001 9:16 pm

Hey Coboeing777, I didn't say no-one has had to face this decision, I said to MY KNOWLEDGE no-one on this site has had to. There may very well have been someone, I'm not sure.

Don't give up on joining the blue. Sure there are shitty days but it is still a great job.


Proud to Wear the Blue, Proud to Serve.
 
Pilot1113
Posts: 2276
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:42 pm

RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Thu May 10, 2001 2:22 am

You folks seem to forget the 500,000 police officers who were killed because they subscribed to your theory of "check first, fire last."

- Neil Harrison
 
coboeing777
Posts: 677
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RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Thu May 10, 2001 4:57 am

thanks copper, wasn't trying to attack you or anything. Sorry if it came out that way. Anyways, I am still undecided about joining. Debating whether I wanna get shot at and have to deal with all those idiots out there or if I would rather be outside changing the brakes on an MD80 at 3 am on some January night...all this legal BS that cops seem to get involved with these days because of the media that thinks they know everything makes me think that Im better off being a mechanic. It's just like when there is a plane crash or incident. The media jumps all over the story and makes all these speculations even though they know nothing about aviation.
 
Guest

RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Thu May 10, 2001 5:01 am

I agree with all the right-minded post here!
Those liberals are always looking for something to whine about.
The cops do a good job to protect us all.
 
Guest

RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Thu May 10, 2001 9:39 am

I wouldn't have hesitated either to pull the trigger in that situation. Now, had they riddled his body with bullets like Diallo in N.Y. then it might become somewhat suspicious. What's an 18 year old doing with a toy riffle at 01:00am? Looking for trouble!!! Cops have a different approach on situations nowadays and they need to!!! Asking questions first has cost too many lives in the past!!!

I respect the cops decision to open fire on the suspect and the Hispanics have no right to complain or create racial unrest about it. you don't want cops in your neighborhood, fine fence it in and let all hell break out!!! Trust me I've seen it and had to see the National Guard with Hummers, Choppers and demolition tanks raid the neigborhood to re-establish order... 10 cops had been shot in those areas in 2 days (Puerto Rico early 90's in La Perla, Puerta del Sol, Puerta de Tierra etc...)

They found tons of weapons, drugs, stolen cars and god knows what else!!!

These neighborhoods aren't pretty, they aren't safe and if it wouldn't be for brave cops risking their lives to patrol them we would be living in fear...

Just my opinion...

 
copper1
Posts: 427
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RE: Coboeing777

Thu May 10, 2001 10:21 am

No sweat dude.

All I can say is if you want everyone to like you, join the Fire Department, everyone loves a cinder pig.

Proud to Wear the Blue, Proud to Serve.
 
vafi88
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RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Thu May 10, 2001 10:45 am

This was not a friendly situation to be in. I bet those pigs (cops, the fuzz, police) killed him because they were dyeing to get out of there and eat some fat juicy doughnuts. an-225 is correct, shoot first, ask later. hairyass and some other mentally screwed up people think that by killing a guy with a gun is the safe way . Has anyone heard about these 3 kids got shot for having those new water guns with the light up stream of water? They got killed because some pig (cops, the fuzz, police) though it was a "laser gun" eventhough it was only 6 o'clock at that time and it wasn't dark, Has anyone heard of talking to the suspect trying to calm him down before killing him because he loads his gun on weapon (I said load, hehe)? I heard that between 1996 and 2000 there was 23 deaths of hispanics (all killed by redneck kind of cops, by the way) and 19 black people. this world is coming to an end my friends and fellow people.
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
coboeing777
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2001 10:21 am

RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Thu May 10, 2001 11:29 am

Oh my god.....40 minority people dead in a span of 4 yrs by cops. Boy, the 6 billion of us left on this planet sure better watch out. We're probably next. Give me a break.
It's funny how you say to stop and talk to the guy. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, well I hope you're a speed talker because you've got all of about 2 seconds to calm him down before he shoots YOU. Sometimes there is no time for that negtotiating nonsense. And about the guy loading is weapon, do you actually think these morons are actually running around out there with unloaded weapons? Half these criminals out there pack more firepower than the cops do.
 
vafi88
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RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Thu May 10, 2001 11:40 am

Basically what you're saying is that just get it over with, shoot! Who cares? If you want this happening to you, when you're holding a fake gun to give to your son later in your life and being shot by the cops, you better check your sources man. No, we're not gonna die from this, but it's a person's life you're taking away.
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
coboeing777
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2001 10:21 am

RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Thu May 10, 2001 12:15 pm

No, what Im saying is be realistic. A cop has 2.....(maybe 3 if he's lucky) seconds to evaluate the situation and react. Sorry but unlike in your video game fantasy world you probably grew up in, there is no pause button to press so you can sit there and think. By then you are dead. And I'll be damned if Im gonna go before that idiot does. It makes me sick how no one ever defends the cops, and claim that they are useless and crooked and what not. Yet, when you know what hits the fan in their house or whatever, who do they run and call? Those good ole pigs. Just give the cops some credit Of course there are bad ones, but thats in any group. There is no need to crucify the cops because they use deadly force on some screwball that shouldnt have been doing in the first place.
 
Bove
Posts: 248
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RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Thu May 10, 2001 2:09 pm

What a bunch of sick f*cking racist redneck motherf*ckers we have here!
 
Superfly
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Bove

Thu May 10, 2001 2:48 pm

I know, it's a shame.  Sad
Bring back the Concorde
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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Vafi, Bove, An-225

Thu May 10, 2001 2:49 pm

Ok.... so youre saying shooting in this situation was wrong. Put yourself in the cop's shoes. Youre chasing after this person who broke the law and is now running from you. Why would a person run? Because they are also in previous trouble too. People like this have a propensity to respond violently to arrest attempts. This guy pulls out a shiny silver object. Now if you were the cop...would you sit there and ask out loud "Hey, is that shiny silver object you are holding a gun, because it sure does look like one!" From distance, at a high intensity level and at such a fast pace, there is no possible way you would have the time do that while he is possibly pumping lead into you. A shiny object comes out of the pocket, you drop them. This is a very justified case for shooting someone. It sucks the person had to die, but they shouldnt have run in the first place, and they should get the Darwin award for pulling out a metallic wrapper in a police chase and thinking they werent gonna get shot.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
Pilot1113
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RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Fri May 11, 2001 12:53 pm

>>when you're holding a fake gun

It is my understanding that a police officer will not just whip out his pistol and fire to kill.

If (s)he has been pursuing the suspect on foot for a great distence you can be sure (s)he is screaming all the way, "STOP POLICE! STOP OR I'LL SHOOT!"

Then once (s)he has stopped the suspect and has cornered him/her you can wager money on the officer saying (if (s)he has seen a weapon in the hand of the individual), "DROP YOUR WEAPON! DROP IT NOW! GET DOWN ON THE GROUND!"

All the suspect has to do is release his grip on the weapon and drop it to the ground. Is that so difficult?

At 1am, in a dimly lit city street from a few yards away from the suspect you're going to tell me that the officer has to be able to judge whether or not the gun the suspect is holding is real?

What if it isn't? Can an police officer really afford to take that chance?

- Neil Harrison
 
B747-437B
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RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Fri May 11, 2001 5:53 pm

I served 3 years with a police department and during that time was involved with one situation where we had to escalate the use of force against a subject in the interest of public safety. In our case, the subject was unarmed but was trying to go for an officer's gun. He was a black male who had OD'd on crack. Needless to say, we were fortunate enough to escape racism charges (3 out of 4 who responded to the call were minorities), but I can assure you there wasnt a single one of us who didn't second guess the situation later. My personal conclusion (and that of the investigatory panel) was that we acted appropriately (but it took me a few months of counselling to realize this), but at least one of the others was very beaten up about it.

I don't condone police shootings of innocent victims, but I will stand by Copper1's point of view. Until you have been in a potentially hostile situation where you have a split second decision to make, the only thing you can hope for is to let your instinct take over and pray you do the right thing. Unfortunately society has reached the point that incidents like this are inevitable, but lets not blame the poor sod with a badge for everything just because he represents the police.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Another Racist Police Shooting

Fri May 11, 2001 8:01 pm

This incident definatly stinks of the media creating an perception of this incident that should not exist.

I am not going to defend the actions of the police, others are doing it quite well.

But I do want to add these thoughts though.

I grew up around guns, heck, my dad ran a gun store out of our basements. Anyway we never ended up getting any water pistols, cap guns ect as presents or on our own.

The reason why is that he didn't want us to associate weapons with toys.

There have been a couple of movements to ban toys guns or at the very least require them not to look "realistic". I don't think this is a bad idea.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.

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