go canada!
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The US Should Ban Handguns

Wed Aug 08, 2001 11:32 pm

There seems to be a debate on airlines with regard to gun controls in the USA.

Some people have compared the us to britain and made suggestions that because we have banned hand guns some how our rape statistics have dramatically increased.

this is fundementaley floored, rape is different from shootings, different motives and besides our crime figures are better then they were before banning handguns.

If we transalted population sizes then the usa figures stand at lesser amount and its ture to say that the reason why they have loads more is because of their natural larger population size, yet ten is still ten too many.

How many deaths did the usa have last year caused by handguns?

how many school killings have the usa had that could have been prevented?
how many presidents have been shot?

In britain after the dreadful dunblane shootings of 16 infant schoolchildren and their teacher, we reacted, we banned hand guns.

we now live in a safer society.

a lot of people in the us mention civil liberities and hide behind the constitution.

do you really think your founding fathers want schoolchildren to be mowed down or to have a high murder rate?

no they didnt.they wanted freedom but let me ask you whats more important?

the freedom to kill and main or the freedom to live?

surely the admendment should occur so that the number of murders and deaths are decreased?

if you believe that americans should have handguns then you have blood on your hands at every shooting.

for the sake of humanity and the love of god, ban handguns.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Matt D
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Wed Aug 08, 2001 11:54 pm

With all due respect, your argument is the very crystallization of narrow minded and short sighted thinking. But you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

Most people that stand on your platform IMO are not looking at the whole picture, and argue from an emotional, rather than a logical perspective. They argue that homicides and robberies and so on will go up.

Now granted, I will concede that if we are allowed to carry concealed weapons, there will be some shootings that would otherwise not have taken place, but in the long run, shooting deaths and crimes will plummet. It's kind of like the Cold War Arms Race: The whole purpose of having weapons was to be a deterrent, so we wouldn't HAVE to. But that option was still open if push came to shove. How inclined do you think that thug is going to be to take grannys purse if there's a chance that granny might whip out her Derringer and send some high velocity lead into the thugs skull?
 
Hole_Courtney
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Wed Aug 08, 2001 11:58 pm

You present points that do, indeed make sense. However, there are a few fundamental elements that make hand-guns a nesessity in the U.S.

1. Our own personal protection. The United States was guaranteed personal protection in the Constitution. We have a right to protect ourselves. And, since most criminals have guns, civilians have guns as well. What are you going to do when an armed criminal walks into your house at 2 in the morning? In your gunless country are you going to try to hit him with a golf club? It's a horrible feeling to realise that someone has broken into your home (it's happened to me before.) Do you not want to be protected in the best way that you can? If someone steps into my house uninvited, he is surely going to get a nasty surprise. I want my protection. If criminals are going to have guns, than I want to make sure that I can match his fire power.

2. Believe it or not, there are still some people in america who hunt for their food. These may be back woods people that don't get out much, but they do exist. the United States is a large country, with lots of open space. Some of it is inhabited by Joe Redneck who needs to hunt to feed his family. If you ban handguns, what's next? Of course, shot guns and rifles. You gun-banning people would expect nothing less.

3. The pure principal that people can be allowed to take their government back from the people that run it. Interesting, yousay? The United States looks like a pretty stable country. It's citizens live in freedom, they live well. But, It only takes one person to create mayhem in this country, only one person or body of persons to take away our rights. We have to have a way to rise up against that type of government. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. But in years to come it might. What are you going to do when government soliders start taking your families across the country to prisons in such? Are you going to throw rocks at them? Keeping the populous armed curbs any politician or maniacal person from trying to even think about plunging a country into dictatorship. It's not crazy. People think it can't happen, but that's what people thought about Hitler too. Again, we now live, at this moment in time, a very stable country that's not about to start arresting citizens. but the option for people in power is always there. Citizens must have a way to protect themselves from an overbearing government, and having fire arms is the only way to do it.

You may wonder why I havne't said anything about school shootings and the like. Well, school shootings aren't the cause of guns. Parents and the kids(kids who perpetrated the incident) are the cause of school shootings. Did we ever stop to think that if the parent had maybe been half involved in the child's life? or if the kid was just a ticking time bomb waiting to happen and no one ever did anything about it? Could it just be that this kid was insane in the first place? Not too many people wake up one morning and go "Oh look, it's a gun, i think i'll kill 19 of my classmates."

With all this said there is a huge responsibility to gun ownership. People who own guns and have small or even older children should be care where they put them. I think trigger locks are a good idea. If you're woken up in the middle of the night, a few clicks and the thing is off. If you're a kid, you have no idea how to get it open, and give up. The responsibilty should always be the number one priority so that the gun in your possession is not used in the wrong way.

So, in conclusion, guns are just a part of life in the United States. We should take more responsibility with our gun ownership, and things like Columbine won't happen again. The key is responsibilty, and not laws banning fire arms.

"If guns are outlawed then only outlaws will have guns."

live forever and stay beautiful,
hole_courtney
"[He] knew everything about literature, except how to enjoy it." - Yossarian, Catch 22
 
go canada!
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Wed Aug 08, 2001 11:59 pm

True if all grannies wanted to do that but killing a person for snatching a pursue is still wrong.

Thats an over reaction.what i am saying is that the fundemental civil freedom of them all is the right to life and that lives are saved if handguns are banned.

i respect your comments, far better to have a civil discussion than the god bless america line.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
go canada!
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 12:10 am

In Britain that argument was used yet our country is now safer because gun onwership is outlawed.
if the usa cant ban guns then the least they can do is toughern gun restrictions.

a scholl kid may shoot because of being bullied but it still wouldnt kill as many people if he didnt have access to the gun in the first place.

our school massacre wasnt done by a schoolchild, it was done by a middle aged man.if he didnt have that gun it wouldnt have happened.

other countries banned handguns let you dont see europe collasping into a army state.
besides if a military force wanted to take over they would do because they would have stronger weapons.

having a hand gun wont save you if that happened.

banning handguns would save you lives.

ps thanks for the comments.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
FlyBoeing
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 12:29 am

Go Canada!

When you think that legal firearms can't be used against a military force, take a look at how the Afghans expelled the Soviets.

Did you know that in the US, homeowners shoot more criminals than police do?

and that aside from killing intruders and justifiable homicide, 6.5 million crimes were prevented through use of a handgun in 1999?

Concealed handguns have never been LEGALLY issued to a criminal, so making handguns illegal would make it difficult for crimes to be prevented.

Why should we prevent good citizens from carrying legal weapons around with them? We should make it nasty for them if they do bad things with their guns and we should make it difficult for the wrong people to have guns.
 
Hole_Courtney
Posts: 549
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 12:32 am

I see your points. And i think they are valid in a sense.

However,
Banning toothpicks will also save our lives. Do you know how many people are killed each year by toothpicks? Hundreds.

Since we're talking about saving lives, why don't we ban the automobile. I read somewhere that thousands of people die in auto accidents every year.

Here's a list of other things that could be banned because they kill people : Airplanes, Trains, Waterbeds, Knives, Forks, Cell Phones (they cause brain cancer, you know), straws. The list can go on and on.

the argument that banning handguns will save your life is very weak. It can be worked into a very valid arguement, but it by itself is weak.

I'm not trying to make this topic silly, but I think that there are a lot more ways to convince people that we should ban handguns. There are a lot more fundamental things than a battle cry of saving lives. Imean, if we let people grow genetically engineered food, we could feed starving people in Africa, but yet we don't allow it. Think of how many lives we could save........


live forever and stay beautiful,
hole_courtney
"[He] knew everything about literature, except how to enjoy it." - Yossarian, Catch 22
 
Superfly
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 1:12 am

FlyBoeing:
>Concealed handguns have never been LEGALLY issued to a criminal, so making handguns illegal would make it difficult for crimes to be prevented.

There was this big a$$hole who used to be the governor of Texas named G.W. Bush who now occupies our White House made it possible for concealed handguns to be LEGALLY issued.

I think handguns should be outlawed and melted down for other uses. There is nothing wrong with hunting rifles and a bow & arrow.
Gun advocates love to hide behind the 2nd. Amendment to justify concealed handguns. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say anything about handguns. If it does, I will pay for all of you guys to go to flight school. Big grin
Using that logic, anybody can own a nuclear bomb and hide behind the 2nd. Amendment.

Bring back the Concorde
 
N400QX
Posts: 1981
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 1:45 am

I think Matt and hole_courtney have presented a very good and valid argument that guns or handguns should NOT be banned.

>Nowhere in the Constitution does it say anything about handguns. If it does, I will pay for all of you guys to go to flight school.

Lets all recite the Constitution, "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." When they are referring to Arms they are obviously referring to weapons with which to fight an enemy force. The whole amendment is primarily about fighting a tyrannical government if that should happen. So, to make a long story short, handguns are arms (ever heard of small arms? the Constitution doesn't make an exception for small arms). To infringe is to transgress or violate the people's right to bear Arms.
I'd like to begin lessons next spring in a Cessna 172 at Crest Airpark (S36)... I'm sure you can work out the arrangements through them... LOL  Big thumbs up
 
tupolev154b2
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 1:49 am

Not another gun debate...
 
JetService
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 3:12 am

People tend to look at one side of the equation. Matt is exactly right. While gun freedom may cause an otherwise prevented death, they also cause otherwise prevented murder-victims. The simple question is, which number is larger. I think a ban would create more crime and death. Why? Because the killers won't pay attention to mandates. They can get their pistols no matter what. Most of the criminals that carry guns now aren't allowed to have them. They are breaking current gun-laws and bans. A sweeping ban would change nothing for criminals except gaurantee that their victims are defenseless. Sounds more like an incentive than a deterrent, no?
"Shaddap you!"
 
FlyBoeing
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 4:18 am

N400, JetService:

Are you referring to me by my real name (check my profile) or are you referring to Matt D? Because some folks have actually clicked through to my profile and referred to me by my real name not my handle.

This gets complicated since Matt D and I are also on the same side of the guns issue.
 
jaysit
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 4:32 am

We have a Constitutional right to bear arms in the US.

There can be controls as to what kind of guns and where we can carry them and how we can acquire them, but thats about it folks.

We cannot ban a baic right inherent in the Constitution. Hopefully that puts an end to that discussion.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
watewate
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 5:05 am

I don't live in US, so I couldn't care less whether Americans shoot each other til the whole population is wiped out. But has anyone checked watched the news in Canada? Even in a big city like Toronto, a shooting incident involving a cap-gun (yes, CAP-GUN) will grace the lead-in segment of your prime time news. Quite the departure from LA or NY news where the streets look like target ranges.  Smile
 
Enthusiast
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 5:47 am

These pro-gun posters seem to me just a little bit...PARANOID!!! Yes, those nasty robbers are just hiding in wait in the bushes right outside your home...waiting for the perfect time to pounce on your unsuspecting family and steal your babies and sell them on the black market to environmentalists...and, of course, they only break in when you're home...but...your trusty magnum to the rescue! Ending a life...think nothing of it! It's the American Way! After all, on the mean streets of suburbia, one can't be too careful.

I already ranted on this under the "more UN anti-freedom crap...unacceptable" forum. Check my posts there...they say it all...but it may be locked, I'm not sure; if it is, I guess I'll have to repeat the whole goddamned thing.
 
Guest

RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 6:08 am

We cannot ban a ba(s)ic right inherent in the Constitution.

Yes, we can. Ever hear of Prohibition? The 18th amendment made it illegal to sell alcohol. Then the 21st overturned it, therefore banning "a right inherent in the Constitution"

Corey777
 
Superfly
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 6:10 am

The only gun I need is the one I was born with . Big grin
Bring back the Concorde
 
jaysit
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 6:26 am

There is nothing in the Constitution about the right to drink alcohol. For better or for worse, there is a right to bear arms. Thus, what the 18th amendment did viz a viz alcohol could not be done against guns.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Enthusiast
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 6:35 am

OK, I checked...you can see the messages on locked forums; you just can't reply. Well, that "more UN anti-freedom crap...unacceptable" forum has it all; but just to sum up, I'll review some points some posters keep ignoring.

1st, nowhere in the constitution or bill of rights does it say everyone has the right to bear arms...it says TRAINED MILITIA do. Period.

2nd, it's really retarted to point to what our founders said over 200 years ago and try to make it apply today. The U.S.A. was a different country then...people needed guns. Not Anymore! We live in an industrialized society...not Valley Forge. Need food? Go to the market (yes, they exist where Joe Redneck lives). Need target practice? Throw darts.

3rd, saying we need guns to protect ourselves from...guess what?...other guns...is ridiculous. Talk about fighting fire with fire; it'll just make it worse...two guns pointed at each other...I'm sure nobody will get hurt. It's like saying, with all these knives around, I keep getting cut...what's the solution?...add more knives! Please.

4th, look at the stats.- 70% of all guns bought for private use in the U.S.A. each year wind up either used against a loved one, or stolen. That's right; thieves tend to break in when you're NOT there, and then, guess whose hands your gun falls into...so it can be used against somebody! After all, how's one way outlaws get guns? Simply put, whatever the intention of gun ownership (ie.- protection), that's not what they get used for. So, if they cause more harm than good, then they don't fill their purpose anyway. Therefore, instead of protecting you, the guns are hurting you.

5th, look at the basic function of a gun; its purpose is to injure or kill something, whether it be human or any other animal. NOT GOOD.

6th, even WITH guns, there's no way citizens could overthrow the government if they wanted to. Mr. and Mrs. Whitetrash aren't going to stop the tanks and 'planes with their shotgun.

7th, in the school shootings, the kids may have been the ones who killed, but if they couldn't have had access to guns to do the killings, they wouldn't have been so successful. Or is one kid going to kill 30 kids with a lead pipe? Trust me, it's a little easier with an Uzi.

8th, here are two true stories of mine:
My uncle bought a handgun; after his Mercedes got stolen, the criminals found it locked in the glove compartment; when my uncle reported the incident and his gun was eventually tracked down, he found out it had been used in two Texas bank robberies. That was the last time he owned a gun.
Last Friday, my sister was driving home and beeped at a guy (in an SUV, no less) for almost causing a three-car accident after failing to use his blinker; he followed her home into her driveway and said, "I'll get you...you're lucky I didn't bring my gun or you'd pay," and this is in a neighborhood of $500,000 houses. I swear, you can't escape these people. And if he had had a gun? My sister could be dead for beeping a horn all because some punk thinks he has the right to carry a deadly weapon. And if she had had a gun, there could possibly be two people dead; more violence; more bloodshed.

9th, what about my rights? How about my right to life? If I get killed because of somebody else's weapon, I had to pay for their responsibility. Why should they get their supposed right to bear arms if my rights are trampled in the process? I have the right to walk down the street and not get threatened by a potentially deadly weapon. Guns have no place in a civilized society. Period.

And for those that are paranoid: yes, the aliens are coming to probe Billy Bob and steal your tobaccy.



 
Enthusiast
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 6:52 am

I was thinking about the whole constitutional right argument...and even though we don't technically have the right to bear arms, let's just assume we do for a moment. With the logic of these posters, as long as something written over 200 years ago was a right, whether it applies today or not, it should never be changed. OK, so if you're using that logic, then if the constitution originally had said men have the right to keep women as, let's say, slaves, then even if we don't believe that today, women should still have to be slaves because we can't change a "right" stated in the constitution? Point is, even if gun ownership was a right 200 years ago, who says that should apply today, especially if society has changed beyond what the founding fathers anticipated?
 
JetService
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 6:55 am

Anti-gun Watewate says:
Quite the departure from LA or NY news where the streets look like target ranges

Anti-gun Enthusiast says:
These pro-gun posters seem to me just a little bit...PARANOID!!!

Well, make up your mind, boys. LMAO!!!!
"Shaddap you!"
 
N400QX
Posts: 1981
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 6:57 am

>nowhere in the constitution or bill of rights does it say everyone has the right to bear arms...it says TRAINED MILITIA do. Period

Wrong. "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." The people is exactly that-- all citizens. "The people" is found in quite a few places in the Constitution. Using your theory, the people don't have the right to peaceably assemle or petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Nor do we have the right to be secure in our persons, houses, papers and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures. Nor do we reserve the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution. Nor do we have the right to vote.

Or does that phrase only apply in the other rights and not for Arms?

>it's really retarted to point to what our founders said over 200 years ago and try to make it apply today. The U.S.A. was a different country then...people needed guns. Not Anymore!

Our Founders were incredibly intelligent and foresaw many of the events up to now. We need civilian weapons now just as much as we did before the revolution. Don't give us this "we're a different country" crap. You're the same people who say the Constitution is a living document, just like China's is. Well heres some news to you-- the Chinese Constitution includes the right of free speech. But since its living, it means whatever the government wants it to mean.

>look at the stats.- 70% of all guns bought for private use in the U.S.A. each year wind up either used against a loved one, or stolen

Not true. Bring me stats and they better not come from HCI.

>even WITH guns, there's no way citizens could overthrow the government if they wanted to

That is what they said in the late 18th century when we were thinking of fighting Britain. Guess who won.

You bring up innocent people shot by guns. They are unfortunate victims, but they are wounded for our liberty. Just as my brother-in-law who was wounded in action, he was fighting to preserve our Great Nation.

"They that would give up essential liberty for some temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
 
Enthusiast
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 6:57 am

Oh, and just so FlyBoeing knows, many more guns were used last year to COMMIT crimes than were used to Prevent them. So the positive is more than cancelled out.
 
Guest

RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 8:22 am

Flyboeing says:
"""Did you know that in the US, homeowners shoot more criminals than police do?"""

Does anyone else who is not from the US find this statement utterly disturbing and quite scary?

Does this not question the type of society where ordinary home owners feel the need to protect themselves with handguns and constantly be on the lookout for criminals?

Why are there so many criminals? Are there not enough police?

Why do people like me from other western nations consider a statement like that bizarre? No one in my country or most other western nations would tolerate living in such a "violent / scared" society.

It's a unique American thing that seems to be obscured by red necks, constituional pro's and the gun lobby.

mb
 
b757300
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 8:34 am

I doubt a hand gun, rifle, or shotgun has ever killed anyone. The cause of death was the PERSON who pulled trigger. No difference if they knifed them to death or beat them with a baseball bat. Just remember in Japan they have had two mass killings and both were with KNIVES, not hand guns.

Anyone want to see a picture of my newest gun I just ordered?
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Guest

RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 9:10 am

Before I get trampled by my US friends, I am well aware that not all people in the USA feel like they live in violent society nor is most of the USA a gun toters paradise. I am merely pointing out how it appears to people from other western nations.

It's your domestic issue.

mb
 
JetService
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 9:20 am

Oh, and just so FlyBoeing knows, many more guns were used last year to COMMIT crimes than were used to Prevent them. So the positive is more than cancelled out.

Enthusiast, don't tease us! Give us the numbers. I would love to know them. You can round to the nearest thousand. Source also. I'm always looking for new references. Thanks

"Shaddap you!"
 
Twotterwrench
Posts: 1087
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 9:47 am

"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence. From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispenable. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." -George Washington, Commanding General of the Continental Army, Father of Our Country and First President of the United States in a speech to Congress, January 7, 1790.


"(The Constitution preserves) the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." -James Madison.


"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria.


"...arms...discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. ...Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived the use of them." -Thomas Paine.


"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson, proposed Virginia constitution, June 1776. 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C. J. Boyd, Ed., 1950)


"The Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms." -Samuel Adams, debates & Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87.

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." -George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426


"The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age..." -Title 10, Section 311 of the U.S. Code


"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of bearing arms." -Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters from the Federal Farmer (1788) at 169.



"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government..."-Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist (#28).


Scariest on of all:

"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" - Adolf Hitler 1935.


Now, don't give me any crap about the founding fathers not believing in the PEOPLE bearing arms, OR the right to bear small arms, OR that protection from tyrannical government is the main purpose in having an armed citizenry. They understood full well what they were doing whent the Second Amendment was adopted. Furthermore, the Constitution HAS TO BE as relevant today as it was when it was written or else all you have is anarchy. It is the very foundation of our rule of law. By the way, the Constitution does provide a means of changing itself to meet the will of the people. Look it up. You are always free to petition for a Constitutional Amendment if you think you have enough support. Good luck...

 
N400QX
Posts: 1981
Joined: Sun May 06, 2001 9:51 am

RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 9:57 am

>Anyone want to see a picture of my newest gun I just ordered?

Haha, sure! And I'll post the pic of the handgun I want to buy as well...
 
b757300
Posts: 3914
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 10:07 am

Heckler & Kock USC .45 Caliber Carbine.

"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
N400QX
Posts: 1981
Joined: Sun May 06, 2001 9:51 am

RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 10:20 am

That is one nice firearm. Looks like its got the single round/three shot burst/fully auto switch on it.

I'll try to get the photo of the one I want... a Glock subcompact .45 Auto. Mmmmm....
 
Alpha 1
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 12:00 pm

With all due respect, Twotterwrench, those quotes, with the exception of Hitler's, were from at least 200 years ago: this nation isn't the nation it was 200 years ago; handguns and guns in general do not have the same role they had 200 years ago, when there was no standing army; they were made in the shadow of a revolution. The conditions under which the 2nd Amendment were drafted back then are NOT the same, IMHO. Therefor, IMHO, we don't need the flood of handguns in this country like we have now. I believe this flood of guns is a threat to the internal security of the nation.

That's my humble view.
 
Twotterwrench
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 12:11 pm

You don't have to be so humble... but it made me grin. I know you and I aren't going to agree on this, but we shook hands so to speak and can talk about this without treading on eggshells I think. IMHO - I think the points the founding fathers made are still valid. For one, I don't believe the National Guard would fight for long if called up to shoot the citizens of their own nation. I know there are precedents (ie Kent State) that might suggest otherwise, but all in all, I don't think our own military would turn against us. Two- Afghanistan - these people took on the second largest super power in the world and they were nothing more than an almost regulated militia. The price was high, but they won.

I don't want to fall over the edge into the world of the ultra-paranoid.. meaning I don't think that a revolution will be necessary. But, the reason I don't think we will have to have one is because the fact that we could is deterrant enough to keep the tyrants in check. Gotta go eat dinner.. more later...
 
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 12:12 pm

I am for a ban of handguns. While it may cause trouble at first, in the long run I think it would be beneficial, although it IS unconstitutional.

Just my view.

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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 12:18 pm

The USC only fires semi-auto. Now its military cousin, the UMP, fires on full automatic, three shot burst, or semi auto. The two fully automatic guns I wish I could afford are the Thompson submachine gun and the Browning Automatic Rifle, better known as the B.A.R. I want those two for their historical value, not because they are a machine gun.
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IMissPiedmont
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Thu Aug 09, 2001 12:30 pm

A couple quick words on guns and crime. Kennesaw, GA, USA. If you don't know what I mean, do some research. I don't like guns at all. They are misunderstood, and, all too often in the hands of idiots that feel they owe their masculinity to a gun. I did not say femininity as all the women I know that own guns do not carry them to appear tough. They do, however know how to use them properly which is a trait I don't see often in men.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Fri Aug 10, 2001 6:17 am

JetService, who says I agree with what watewate said? I was born in New York City; I love it and wouldn't hesitate for a moment to live there without a gun. As a matter of fact, I have at least 20 relatives alone who live in NYC; none of them possess guns- they're doing just fine.

As for the stats., believe me, I do my research. I never could figure out how to add a direct link from a post, but I'm happy to give webpages that I've used. The crime and gun stats. come from gov.org in the crime and stats. sections, and I've also confirmed these figures with some news networks (any nbc, abc, cnn, 20/20, or dateline archives will do). I also occasionally get some gun info. from a NJ state trooper I know.

N400QX and others, "the right of people to keep and bear arms" is true, but if you read further those very people are specified to be trained militia. Plain and simple. I have a lot of experience in gov. related research and schooling and I've confirmed this with many professors. I've read the constitution and bill of rights; don't try to fool me.

Our founders WERE incredibly intelligent, but they were still just human; they just couldn't foresee the changes our country, and the whole world, would go through in the next two hundred years. Apparently you didn't read my post just before yours (or is it the one after) that spells out the whole constitutional right thing in my view. My point was- just because something applied in 1776 doesn't mean it applies today. The constitution and bill of rights gave white men the right to own slaves; so, by your logic, as long as it was allowable then, we should still be allowed to own slaves? Um...no. Some things just change. My stats. are sadly true; I talked to a state trooper about a month ago, and I confirmed his with several websites; they're listed above. As for citizens blowing away the gov., you're right; that's what they did in 1800. But, guess what? It's not 1800 anymore! Then, did they have nukes? long-range missles? rocket flamethrowers? jet helicopters? F-18s? Do citizens possess these? no. Does the gov.? Yes. Mmkay, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't stand a chance. Also, my definition of liberty isn't having my life endangered by a deadly weapon. Like I said before, what about my rights? All my rights are cancelled out because gunowners want one right. Since when is the right to bear arms the most important right, and since when was it allowed to cancel out all my rights?

On another note, some posters say we should have to ban all potentially lethal things, like cars and 'planes, if we ban guns. Um, I think they're a little different. Whereas cars and 'planes, for example, have another purpose (other than to kill), namely to transport people, guns have NO OTHER purpose than to kill something, whether it be human or any other type of animal.
 
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Fri Aug 10, 2001 6:36 am

Whats more improtant the right of freedom and liberity or the right to have a opportunity to murder?

Freedom and liberity means the freedom to love.

The basic fundemental right of every person living on the globe is the right to life.
By having handguns you are infringing that right.

The arguements used in here are the same used by pro-guns in britain but killings of schoolchildren cahnged it.
Can you really square with all you americans values that you are allowing murders to take place that needent have happened.

In the uk,shootings and murders are down.We are safer becasuse of banning guns.Yes hardern crinimals will get guns, we cant stop that, however, we help stop marital or home arguments get out of hand.
We help stop leaders being shot.
We help schoolchildren being shot

Some of you are christains but you cant square the right to own a gun with your faith.

A car has a purpose other than killing, A gun doesnt.

Can you honestly say that george washington if he came back for one day only, would be pleased by the hundreds of shootings?
of course no.

and by the way Zach, the main reason why america won the war of independence is because it was backed by the french as well.You would have got independence for sure, dont blame you, george third was a nutcase but the french helped you, you cant equate that war with the death of innocent lives.
history doesnt lie and history can teach lessons.

Learn from your history, save lives.

people have basic right to live and to be free and be safe.Handguns dont allow that.

its far more unconstitutional to allow death, rather than protect your country, after all wasnt that what it was for?

to protect the american people?
and best can they be protected?
by shooting each other?
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
N400QX
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Fri Aug 10, 2001 9:12 am

>I have a lot of experience in gov. related research and schooling and I've confirmed this with many professors. I've read the constitution and bill of rights; don't try to fool me.

I've read the Constitution, too. I've confirmed the fact (like I even need to) that any person can keep and bear Arms. Shall I re-post what I said last time about the usage of the term "the people" in the Constitution?

>- just because something applied in 1776 doesn't mean it applies today

Just because something applied in 1791 doesn't mean that it doesn't apply today. It applies today, just like the rest of the Constitution.

>The constitution and bill of rights gave white men the right to own slaves

I'd like to see the "right to keep slaves" clause, please. No, the Constitution does not give the right to own slaves, it merely facilitates slavery.

>Do citizens possess these? no. Does the gov.? Yes. Mmkay, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't stand a chance

You're proposing a situation in which the WHOLE military is up against the people fighting for freedom and resistance to tyranny (remember, resistance to tyranny is obedience to God). That won't happen. Look at the military. Today, our military is largely conservative, just as our military usually is. It would be more like some of the military and some of the hardware with the civilians fighting against a partial military. Regardless, it doesn't matter whether you say we can win or not-- everyone said the colonists wouldn't win. They did. It was just a lot of civilians with dirty clothes, primitive weapons, and low spirits that defeated the well-armed British.

>Since when is the right to bear arms the most important right, and since when was it allowed to cancel out all my rights?

Your thinking is illogical. As soon as someone shoots you (assuming you're innocent), they have overstepped the bounds of their right to bear Arms and have violated your right to life. Just as all other rights in the Constitution, they end where others' begin.

>Whats more improtant the right of freedom and liberity or the right to have a opportunity to murder?

The right of freedom and liberty, hands down.
"They that would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve NEITHER liberty nor safety."
I've already explained this one, too.

>The basic fundemental right of every person living on the globe is the right to life.
By having handguns you are infringing that right.

That's not true. I have handguns. Am I infringing on your right to life? Of course not. And if you attack me on the street and I pull out a gun, your right to life is gone. You attacked an armed person. You will die. The law backs me up on this one.

>Some of you are christains but you cant square the right to own a gun with your faith

Yes I am Christian. I read the Bible. The Bible tells us that we MUST fight oppression and tyranny. Being armed and believing in God go hand in hand. And how many times must I repeat this? Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God.

>Can you honestly say that george washington if he came back for one day only, would be pleased by the hundreds of shootings?
of course no.

Of course not. I'm not pleased by shootings either. But both he and I would realize that there is a price for freedom.

>You would have got independence for sure, dont blame you, george third was a nutcase but the french helped you

Is someone still bitter about our independence?  Big grin

>history doesnt lie and history can teach lessons

I'm glad you mention history. There is a saying about history-- those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. If we forget about the attempted disarming of colonists by the King (to more easily control them), we can make fools of ourselves and let the Government Almighty (  Insane ) disarm us to more easily control us.

It's true-- I will give up out of frustration on such topics as homosexuality, some foreign policy, and the environment, but I will never give up when it comes to our basic rights as outlined in the Constitution and the perservation of our liberty.

Oh, Eric... If you're still reading this, I finally got the pic of the Glock subcompact .45 Auto (Glock Model 36) that I want to order...



Its got a 96 mm barrel, overall 172 mm long, and weighs 68 g (about 2.4 oz) without the full magazine, 570 g or about 20.1 oz with the magazine.

Its magazine only holds 6 rounds, but its a trade off for having a weapons small enough for a shoulder holster that won't be very noticeable. I guess carrying an extra magazine would be helpful in a situation which would warrant 12 rounds, but how likely is that... Can't wait until I'm eligible for the concealed pistol permit.  Big grin
 
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Fri Aug 10, 2001 5:58 pm

Hey N400QX did you make any decisions on that SKS?
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Fri Aug 10, 2001 9:18 pm

Lessons should be learned from history, next time you have a school massacre prehaps you could learn from it.

you are threaterning human life if you own a gun, that gun could be used in a moment of madness and a person will be shot because of that.

handguns are there to kill people, as for killing me for threaternign to punch you then you should learn from God who wouldnt adovocate you killing me for me punching you.

im not bitter about independence,i said i dont blame america for wanting to be free of george iii, i dont blame any country wanting to be independent.

however, im a historian, im being objective and simply pointing out that the french helped you guys out.

you saying im bitter, isnt being objective.

you mention government control, buy hey you love george bush so how can such an outstanding president threatern your liberity?


since all us presidents bang on with the god bless america and the forefathers,c an you imagine any of them turning round and employing the military to shoot random people?

dont you think the military have more training, more knowledge and more powerful weapons?

do you think that the men in the military would turn on their countrymen or do you feel that america could be invaded?

by who exactly? the russians, the iraqies, the serbs, bim landen?

america has one of the best militaries of the world and its there to protect the people from invasions.

civilians owning guns is a bad idea because there will never be a time when the government, so upholding of american values will attack their people, their will never be atime when troops will kill their own countrymen and they will never be a time that america will be invaded.

so when are handguns going to come in handy, let me think, oh yes, to kill and main schoolchildren and to shoot others and to commit crimes against the lord, the people and your blessed constitution well yankee-doodle dandy-god bless america for being so upholding citzens!

taking a life is playing God and throwning his work out of the window.

if you take a life then no hiding behind your forefathers is going to help you.

the right to life is the most improtant aspect of the world we live in.you constituion was founded to protect the people of america.

how best can they be protected? by killing each other?

if yo back handguns you have blood on your hands every time a shooting takes place.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Fri Aug 10, 2001 9:23 pm

Go Canada....Seek Help.....

You have a lot of misdirected anger.

Please don't waste your life.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Fri Aug 10, 2001 9:34 pm

im not going to waste my life nor others because im not going to go around and be killing others.

however, america is wasting life every time it doesnt ban handguns.

i notice you avent responded to my comments, prehaps you realise that the right to life must be placed first.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Fri Aug 10, 2001 9:43 pm

No,

I realize that a weapon is just an object. It isn't what causes violence.....Human behavior causes these problems

You don't seem to be aware of that.

So what you suggest won't make the world safer, since it doesn't change human behavior.

Look at Britain. Is it safer now that guns have been banned over there? Based on the news stories that have made it over here about the crime rate in London, I would suggest not.

If memory serves NBC did a story that stated you where more likely to get shot in the bad parts of London then the Bronx.....That ain't saying much.
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Fri Aug 10, 2001 9:49 pm

You also don't seem to be aware of the fact that a weapon is only a tool. It is ment to be used as that.

BTW. A California lawsuit against gun manufacturers was thrown out last week because the court determined that the manufacture couldn't be held responsible for a legal product if it is used illegally.

I'll applaud that.

Nobody would sue Ford or Chevy if they made the car a drunk driver used to run down somebody on the road. Last time I looked it was illegal to drive drunk

Why should the firearms manufacture get sued because somebody uses his product illegaly?
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Fri Aug 10, 2001 10:03 pm

Aaaaaaaaaaarggggghhhhhhh.

I can't believe that civilised people are comparing the benefits of devices whose sole purpose is to kill people.
 
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Fri Aug 10, 2001 10:08 pm

Eg777er

That is not their sole purpose.

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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Fri Aug 10, 2001 10:38 pm

About time you jumped into this one Shawn. Where the hell have you been?
 
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Fri Aug 10, 2001 10:53 pm

Sorry....I was in the phone booth changing cloths..... Big thumbs up

Besides this actually started on the 8th....I think I was still on vacation then....didn't visit this site at all.
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RE: The US Should Ban Handguns

Sat Aug 11, 2001 1:30 am

"Look at Britain. Is it safer now that guns have been banned over there? Based on the news stories that have made it over here about the crime rate in London, I would suggest not. "

News stories? really, how comes our crime rate is falling and how comes our cities dont have parts which the police are too afraid to go into.
(LA according to BBC news)

We have less murders because there a no guns.
Granted a manic will always be a manic but allowing him to have an easily accessibile tool makes it worse.

School children wont be able to carry out massacres if they didnt have access to handguns.They may want to kill but killers only kill if they have the tool as well.

A guns sole purpose is to kill, they isnt any other purpose.But since mr superman thinks there is prehaps he could inform the world, prehaps guns could be handy plant pots and prehaps he could tell the people of america that guns arent there to shot people!

i repeat again, whats more important savings lives or hiding behind your forefathers?

i never said a firearms manufacture should be sued, ive said that if america doesnt ban handguns then it cant go crying next time it has a school killing.

banning handguns wont every life in america but it will cut your crimes rates and will saves lives that needent had been lost.

america is a hypocrite if it complains about murders and shooting, has a go at britain but doesnt ban handguns.

i noticed after the dunblane killings which prompted britain to ban guns, US news networks critised the shooting clubs and supported the ban.

It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit

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