Guest

Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 8:06 am

Australia's human rights record shot? The below article was taken form the Sydney Morning Herald.

By Andrew Clennell and Tom Allard


"""Norway reported Australia to the United Nations last night and branded it "inhumane" after 50 special forces troops took charge of the freighter carrying 438 asylum seekers.

But the Howard Government insisted that Australia would do "whatever necessary" to remove the Norwegian-registered Tampa, as it stood just four nautical miles off Christmas Island.

The Government was trying to rush through emergency legislation to reinforce its power to forcibly move the ship, which had defied Australia's orders by entering its waters yesterday morning.

But the legislation appeared to be doomed in the Senate because of Labor and Democrat opposition.

The SAS troops raced to the Tampa in Zodiac boats and stormed it after the captain tried to dock at Christmas Island.

Norway said the freighter needed to land because of the sick and exhausted refugees on board and that Australia was in violation of international maritime rules, which allow ships to go to the nearest port in an emergency.

But Mr Howard - who announced the SAS operation to a hushed Parliament House at 2pm - accused the Tampa captain of exaggerating the medical problems. "Nobody , and I repeat nobody, has presented as being in need of urgent medical assistance," he said.

According to a cable, the Tampa moved towards the port after a spokesman for the boat people, Mr Mohammad Wali, said they would "begin jumping overboard if no shore medical assistance was rendered".

Using rapelling equipment, the SAS troops clambered up the side of the Tampa and boarded, meeting no resistance from Captain Arne Rinnan, or crew. The shipping line said the captain was still in charge.

Defence sources said the troops had the capability to steer the ship into international waters, should the captain refuse.

But Captain Rinnan apparently turned off the ship's engines and late last night it had still not budged.

As the drama unfolded, the Norwegian Foreign Minister, Mr Thorbjoern Jagland, said: "Australia's attitude to the refugee incident is unacceptable and inhumane and contravening international law."

The diplomatic crisis worsened when Mr Howard criticised the reaction of the Norwegian Prime Minister, Mr Jens Stoltenberg, to the Australian operation. He had rung his Norwegian counterpart after sending in the SAS troops.

"He expressed the view that the Norwegian Government had no responsibility in the matter, despite the fact it is a Norwegian flagged vessel, it is a Norwegian captain and it is a Norwegian company," Mr Howard said.

But Norway said it was reporting Australia to the UN maritime agency, its refugee agency and also to the International Committee of the Red Cross.

The Opposition Leader, Mr Beazley, attacked Mr Howard for not contacting Mr Stoltenberg much earlier.

Mr Howard said Captain Rinnan had approached Christmas Island despite express orders by Australia not to do so.

Before entering Australian waters, the captain had made three mayday calls, reporting an medical emergency.

But Mr Howard said: "The Government was left with no alternative but to instruct the Chief of the Australian Defence Force to arrange for defence personnel to board and secure the vessel.

"My advice is that units of the Special Air Service under the command of Lieutenant-Colonel Gus Gilmore executed this instruction over an hour ago and that the ship is now in the control of the SAS."

The Immigration Minister, Mr Ruddock, last night accused the captain of "misrepresentation" for trying to come to shore and said the Government's moves were "lawful".

Under international law, the Tampa would have the right to berth in Australian waters if there was a genuine emergency.

Last night's emergency legislation was to give immunity and protection to officers authorised by the Government to use "reasonable means", including "reasonable force", to forcibly remove the ship from Australian waters. It would also forbid the asylum seekers from applying for protection.

The Opposition, while refusing to pass the legislation, said that it had been given just 40 minutes' notice, and Mr Beazley accused the Government of "wedge politics".

At the same time yesterday:

· A spokesman for the Norwegian shipping line, Wallenius Wilmhelmsen, compared Australia to a "banana republic".

· The New Zealand Prime Minister, Ms Helen Clark, said she would probably have allowed the freighter into her country.

· The Government's human rights commissioner, Mr Sev Ozdowski, said the humanitarian issues took precedence over any other issues.

· Police detained 251 refugees on the island of Lombok, with thousands of others scattered throughout Indonesia secretly waiting to sail for Australia, officials reported. """


Our conservative government is showing a distinct lack of humanity in the way it has so far dealt with the issue of these refugees. It appears the Federal Government is pandering to middle Australia (who would prefer the country to be surrounded with barbed wire) in the lead up to a federal election in refusing to allow the Afghani boat people onto Australian shores.

Meanwhile, these poor people who are more than likely not fleeing the wicked Taliban regime are being kept in inhumane conditions on board a Norweigan freighter.

What are your thoughts? I am thoroughly disgusted in our Government and am ashamed how the Australian people have re-acted to this.

mb

 
tupolev154b2
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 8:31 am

Not as bad as when we locked up some Chinese asylum-seekers for up to 4 years.
 
SVG
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 8:50 am

I'm shocked by the way the Australian goverment behaves. The situation onboard the ship is very serious and many of the immigrants are in very bad health conditions. They need medical assitance, not heavliy armed troops! It is terrible that a modern and 'civilized' nation like Australia behave in such an inhumane and irresponsable way. I totally agree with the Norwegian Prime Minister on his critisim against the Australian government.
 
watewate
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 9:22 am

What a pleasant way to welcome those seeking a better life in a paradise.
Australian government should have let the ship dock, and have dealt with the asylum seekers on land where their claims can be scruitinized in detail. All should be given fair chance to plead their case, but those not qualifying for asylum should be deported right away.

Canada has had the same problems as of late, with many Chinese migrants being captured off the coast of British Columbia. While I sympathize with those who fled their country to seek a better life, I'm not too pleased to see the bills that these migrants (numbering hundreds- if not thousands) leave behind after they file for asylum.
 
N312RC
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 9:22 am

Flame me all you want, but this is a bunch of bleeding heart liberal drivel. That ship shoulda turned round to Indonesia and let them off. Keep them in their own country, Australia doesnt need them. They would just sit on welfare anyways.
N/A
 
Guest

RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:05 am

N312RC,

Do I take it you put that ridiculous post in there so you would get flamed? (BTW - Get your facts right, the refugees are Afghani nationals from Afghanistan - not Indonesia.)

What makes you think these people would automatically collect welfare?

Whilst the Australian government is well within it's rights to demand the Norwegian ship leave our waters, we contacted the Norwegian ship in the first place and asked them to pick the refugees up from the stricken ship. What is truly disgusting is the blatant politiking by our Government in determining what will happen to these poor people as I stated earlier.

I am far from suggesting these people automatically gain entry to our country, but at the very least they should be given consideration and go through the process like others. Let's face it, they're not likely to survive being sent back into Taliban controlled Afghanistan, we as a nation should accept that and give these poor people a chance.

Our immigration minister in Parliament is the biggest bigot and racist that has ever been in Federal Parliament. He is also the toughest and meanest immigration minister we have ever had. Phillip Ruddock was chosen by our fearless leader to head the immigration department because of those things.

Does everyone know that the immigration department has had television commercials and print ads made up and put on television and newspapers in 3rd world countries in the region? These ads depict Australia as a barren, desolate place where you would not want to land unasisted. Poisoness snakes and crocodiles are featured in these ads as well. They are meant to frighten would be illegal immigrants from trying to enter the country.

No matter what our Government does about the situation now, the damage has been done. Absolutely disgraceful, I am ashamed to be an Australian today.

mb
 
tbar220
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:16 am

Why does the government have such an anti immigration policy? Has it had a bad immigration situation in the past?

If you think that's bad, the United States used to turn away hundreds of refugees that were landing on the coast of southern Florida.

Mb, I also saw in a newsreport online somewhere (don't remember which one) that the boat was from Indonesia. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

 Smile Tzvika  Smile
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Guest

RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:27 am

Tzvika,

Apparently the ship was registered &/or had Indonesian crew. Many ruthless Thai and Indonesian boat owners do a roaring trade in human misery cargo. A lot of the time the refugees pay for safe passage to Australia and never end up getting anywhere except killed for their time and trouble. Thai pirates regularly rape pillage and destroy refugee boats.

It's sickening.

mb
 
tbar220
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:36 am

Why does the Australian government currently have such an anti immigration policy? Has it had a bad immigration experience in the past?
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Guest

RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:56 am

Tzvika,

That's a tricky question mate. Our current prime minister is from the Old School of thought, which carries such things as the "white Australia policy" from the 60's.

The conservatives in this country are generally against widespread immigration in the name of keeping public debt down. To get into Australia now you have to have a fairly good reason, be skilled in something and at least speak reasonable english.

If I am correct I beleive our spending on foreign aid has been cut as well. As far as the general population goes, the 'whites' of Australia seem to blame widespread immigration on a number of problems that we have. Various ethnic crime gangs, drugs, welfare cheats and other societal problems.

This is while these same people enjoy the benifits widespead immigration has brought this country. They want the good but get upset with the bad. They want to keep all the diversity of restaurants, languages, teachers, doctors etc but want to get rid of the nasty elements.

Illegal and poor immigrants are being blamed in these instances. We have recently in Sydney had ethnic crime gangs terrorize south western Sydney suburbs with a string of brutal gang rapes on teenage girls - this is polarising thoughts on such issues within the community as well.

Other instances of this have raised there ugly heads in the community not that long ago too. We had Kosovar refugee's come to Australia to stay for 4 months whilst the UN fixed things in the Balkans. There was a big news story about a alleged rape (amongst the kept Kosovar's) and also a family who left their temporary shelter in disgust and refused to go back because the accomodation wasn't good enough.

These things disgusted just about all Australian's who thought the rape was bad enough but really went against the Kosovar's when this one family decided to act a bit uppity. Cries of "go home" went out obviously.

The media built this up of course.

That kind of thinking is behind the current governments actions and people are not thinking laterally.

mb
 
tbar220
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 11:00 am

Sounds like its a very tricky situation.

And I'm betting that the Australian media isn't helping the situation much either, am I correct?

Tzvika
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tupolev154b2
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 11:07 am

N312RC, if you were being persecuted, would you just sit in "your own country" or would you become one of these refugees?
 
Guest

RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 11:20 am

Tzvika,

People appear to be sidestepping the issue that perhaps these people escaped from the evil, wicked Taliban regime for various reasons. The refugees have not been given an opportunity to air the reasons they were heading here.

The media appears to be a little divisive on the issue. Todays print media is full of different opinions and ideals. Of course not all Aussies are against the Afghans but a poll done on Channel 10 last night indicated 90% of people wanted them out of Australian waters immediately.

The general attitude is "If you want to come here go through the same channels as others." with out thinking the issue through.

Or so it appears to me. But how many times have we seen blinkered public opion? We all know how hard the general populous has become in recent times.

Your probably to young to remember, but do you remember hearing of or seeing the awful devastation in Ethiopea in the 80's? Everyone wanted to lend a hand then did they not? What's happened now?

Cheers,

mb
 
N400QX
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 12:30 pm

Conservative government? LOL... I gotta laugh at that before I give my opinion.

Anyway, I agree with your government-- you don't need illegals and you have the right and responsibility to turn them away! They don't have the right to intrude on you... Send em back. Screw your PC "human rights".
 
tupolev154b2
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 12:49 pm

N400QX, they are seeking asylum.
 
N400QX
Posts: 1981
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 12:53 pm

From what? Sorry-- I dont have a whole lot of time tonight to read the whole story...
 
tbar220
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 1:44 pm

While you don't have to accept them, you can give them medical attention. I certainly don't approve of this raid on their bought with armed personell. Just land a helicopter with medical supplies, how hard is that?

And Mx5, mentioning the problems in Ethiopia in the 80's, I know what you're talking about. The nation that did help (dont anyone dare flame me for mentioning this, it is not political) was Israel. They accepted 100,000 Ethiopians into the country. Today, they are a very large and integral part of the country, and a distinct cultural group in the nation. They were very grateful for the help.

 Smile Tzvika  Smile
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tupolev154b2
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 2:39 pm

N400QX, they are seeking asylum from their government. Zach, it doesn't surprise me that you would again make a whole lot of noise before you think...
 
kevin
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 2:41 pm

There is no way I would have accepted 500 Afghanis into my country. Try to go to Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. They won't care about you!!!
If you let 500 Afghanis into your country , after 10 years you will have around 4000 of them (oh geez these guys know how to multiply). You will have mosques all around your city and very soon they will ask for independance. No way!!!
 
Guest

RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 2:51 pm

Kevin,

Please explain to me what the problem is with having Mosques in your country. I would have thought Canadians would enjoy diversity? Are you scared of them because of their culture? Why on earth would they declare independance? For someone in their early 20's you seem to have a dim view of other cultures. I won't call you a bigot just yet, but your heading in the right direction.

Just put yourself in their situation. They could be 'Christian' Afghans and were fleeing an exceptionally oppressive strict regime who would have probably been executed at some stage during one of the Talibans cleanses.

You need to grow up a bit and look at the big wide world.

mb

***Absolutely Ansett***
 
Guest

RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 3:52 pm

I agree totally with what the Libs have done in this particular case.

A number of points:

* The ship is Norwegian, but with Indonesian crew
* Our country has the right to deny entry to our waters, any ship or aircraft, which we expect is harbouring potential illegal immigrants or cargo
* A military doctor examined the people on board and found that none were in need of urgent medical attention
* The SAS only boarded the ship after the captain of the vessel started to head for Australian waters, and enter those waters ILLEGALLY
* Australia does not have an anti-immigration policy. We still accept thousands of legal immigrants every year, and will accept those immigrants which go thru the necessary processes. We still receive LEGAL migrants from Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan, but these illegals deem it necessary to jump the queues. This is NOT on.

Meanwhile, these poor people who are more than likely not fleeing the wicked Taliban regime are being kept in inhumane conditions on board a Norweigan freighter.

Mikey, whilst you and I agree on many issues, this is one which I resoundly disagree.

It is highly unlikely that these illegals are "poor people" from Afghanistan, but economic refugees from Pakistan. It costs these people upwards of US$10,000 for passage on these ships, and Afghani farmers are going to find it absolutely impossible to raise that kind of money.

It is also interesting to note that these people have disposed of all identification, therefore making it impossible to make positive identification. Remember, that Afghanis are for the most-part of the same stock as Pakistanis, and are indistinguishable on looks alone.

If the Norwegians are so intent on making this a big problem, I have a solution.

Get the ship to turn around and head, full-steam, for the nearest Norwegian port, and let them deal with these "Afghanis". We have too many illegals here already, and with the problems with the detention centres as of late (of which I agree with detention), we don't need more problems.
 
N400QX
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 4:33 pm

Am I reading incorrectly, or did I just completely agree with Aviatsiya on this one?  Wow!

Well, all I have to say is, "dittos, Scotty." Pardon me while I regain control of breathing....

But on a more serious note, I agree completely and I do NOT understand why people want to allow illegals to stay (grant amnesty or whatever) when they SHOULD have come in the legal way. There are thousands of people who would love to go to countries like Australia and America and do it the legal way and stand in line. We are slapping them in the face if we let illegals come in without so much as blinking an eye.

I believe in immigration, but controlled and LEGAL immigration.
 
ryanb741
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 4:39 pm

PM John Howard would be well advised to remember that his ancestors were, after all, 'illegal immigrants' to Australia, n'est-ce pas? I cannot see why Australia has a problem with dealing with Asylum claims for people who live a life under the regime of the Taliban. If the overcrowded UK can take hundreds of thousands of asylum seekers annually, I can't see what argument Australia has, with its underpopulated lands. I have observed a worrying tendency for Australian politicians to play the race card which is a shame, as cities like Sydney and Melbourne have clearly benefitted from their multi-cultural diversity.

If Australia fairly processes their claims and finds them to be bogus, then fair's fair, but they surely need to be given the chance to state their claims. I hardly think heading back to Indonesia is the answer - they aren't exactly the best racially integrated society are they?!
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
N400QX
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 4:39 pm

By the way, I know such people-- political refugees from Romania after the 1989 revolution. Hearing their story of getting to America is quite heart-wrenching and makes one appreciate the struggle to get into richer countries.

With a lot of luck and a lot of waiting and tons of paperwork, moving around, and sneaking out of their politically unstable homeland, they finally made it to America. What a story that family has-- it gets me every time...
 
Guest

RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 4:47 pm

Scotty,

As always you make some good points, however until it is determined 'who' 'what' 'when' 'where' and 'why' how do we we judge them?

Note that in my text I have said "they may be X". We don't know.

As for how the Howard government has handled this situation, again I find it disgusting that the lives of people are being toyed with for political point scoring with the middle classes, and don't tell me they are not.

As for Phillip Ruddock and his handling of immigration policy in this country - lets just say a few years ago the ex (Steve) and I had a few drinks with him on several occaisions at the Albury and a charming fellow he was too. (*not*) Leave it at that shall we?

Don't forget though, I am not against our hard line on boat people - it would be an absolute nightmare if we had armada's of crappy ships landing on the northwest. Besides the fact that we would be unable to cope with them all - to many lives would be lost upon them discovering nothing but scrub and no water.

Catch up mate.

Cheers,

mb

 
go canada!
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 9:42 pm

Tupolev154B2-seeking aslyum? yes they may be, but most people in afghanistan wanted those nutcases to take over.

austrialia's right of a nation has been blown away, in fact you could say that the rape of austrialian Sovereignty has occured.

its up to their government to allow these people to dock and frankly i dont blame them.

most aslyum seekers are just seeking a better life than escaping death and i think its good that a liberal government has the nerve to stick upto mary robinson and 'all the worlds at peace' claptrap.

these people have entered austrialian waters illegally when they had no right to.Therefore, their right to assitance has been wavied because they have taken advantage of austrialia.

and yes i wouldnt want a boat of refugees suddenly appearing at the beach at the bottom of my house.

we have the same problem in britain, there is a camp next door to eurotunnel and every night they try to seek on board the trains to espace to britain from far flung parts of the world even though there is at least 20 countries who could take care of them just as well.

then they arrive and are taught english, a good thing and are given vouchers, most are grateful and the british respond to this and both communties live in peace.this happened during and after the gulf war with the kurds, they came through proper channels and were welcomed into britains multi-cultural society.

the same with most kosovans, however a lot decided to run roughshod over our nation and came anyway, promptly causing the system to collaspe and sent it into a tail spin.

because of the illegal immingrants, things changed.they moaned more, they letched and raped women, this was then in the media, prompting race riots in the north and the murder of a kurd in glasgow.

now britain is becoming harder on aslyum seekers, those escaping torture and presecuation must be allowed in and protected, those seeking pleasure must be replelled.

because the illegal immingrants took advantage of britain they recked it for the rest of us.

therefore i dont blame austrialia refusing admission to illegal immingrants who have no thought of the consequences and are out to take take take without giving something back.

unlike those who are genuine seekers and dont enter countries illegally.

these people have raped austrialias Sovereignty .

It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
wirraway
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Fri Aug 31, 2001 1:32 am

Mx5_boy

I am one of the 90% of Australians that is in favour
of what Howard and Ruddock are doing. These are
NOT refugees they are ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, the
reason you never here of them sinking between
Afganastan and Indonesia is they PAY for commercial
flights to Indonesia than PAY US$10,000 for the
boat to Australia and then dispose of all forms of I.D.
so the Australian govt cannot run a check on them
or verify their bullshit stories, in fact a lot of these
people are Pakistanis pretending to be Afgahns, thank
god Mx_5 you wimps only make 10%.

Wirraway
 
SVG
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Fri Aug 31, 2001 4:18 am

This case cleary shows that Australians are inhumane and barbaric people. By the way, what do you expect the Norwegian vessel to do? What you have done if you were the captain of the "Tampa"?
 
N400QX
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Fri Aug 31, 2001 4:45 am

Inhuman and barbaric for protecting their borders?! You need help, my friend.
 
Guest

RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Fri Aug 31, 2001 2:51 pm

Wirraway,

I am well aware of the many Pakistani's flying to Indonesia and posing as 'fleeing refugees'.

My whole point about this is the way the government handled the whole situation. The rest of the world thinks we are barbarians to say the least. (Except for N400QX of course.)

What is going to make it worse for us is these reports that New Zealand will take some of these boat people.

What do you think of that?

mb
 
kevin
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Fri Aug 31, 2001 2:52 pm

If I was John Howard I would accept them to Australia. Once they arrive I put them into the concetration camp and after I would charter an aircraft and take them back to Agfhanistan. I wouldn't accept any protests. In case someone would disagree with my decision , force will be used.


Mx5boy,

I lived in Lebanon for a while I know who Muslims are and the way they think (I'm not talking about everybody , but about majority). I know what I am talking about. Please do not tell me about cultural diversity and especially human rights. I'm sick of this humanitarian stuff.
Muslim states would never ever accept CHRISTIAN illegal immigtarnts on their territory (I hope no Christian ever will need to go to a Musli state for asylum purpose). Or if they would , they will limit their rights to zero and treat them as third class people. Go to a country with a Muslim population, live among them for a while and speak after.
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Fri Aug 31, 2001 4:34 pm

Following is a list of Muslim States accepting Christian refugees:

Iran
Pakistan
Malaysia
UAE
Bahrain
Egypt
Morocco
Tunisia
Nigeria (partly Muslim)
Bangladesh
Jordan
Kuwait
Qatar
Brunei

Kevin, don't be such an ignoramus. I too have lived extensively in the Middle East and if you knew enough about Islam you would realise that Muslims regard Christians and Jews as belonging to the same family as them - they share many prophets.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
SVG
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RE: N400QX

Fri Aug 31, 2001 6:27 pm

Defending your border????

I don't really understand what you mean. The whole world is shocked by the behavriour of the Australian government and the Australian people. You are actually breaking all international laws. Australia is extremely inhumane! It really surprises me that a nation built by immigrants can behave this way.
 
Guest

RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Fri Aug 31, 2001 7:54 pm

Kevin,

Regardless of how people behave in their own country, our beautiful, plentiful and safe country has been built on various forms of immigration.

Whilst I am proud of our nations achievments and our lifestyle I am again appalled at how our government has handled the situation. Any public servant publicist could have spotted the ramifications of the indecision of the Howard government.

They were only interested in domestic issues when this was plainly an International issue.

Ryanb,

Good post mate. I work directly with many of the muslim faith, trading througout the region and travelling to many muslim countries. For someone to blatantly claim the majority of a population are christian haters is absurd to say the least.

Segregation is where the trouble lies. If you have a diverse population with everything mixed it's far more harmonious than 'slums' or 'enclaves' of different people.

As I stated in an earlier post, the problems with the Australian people is basically how our governments have been changing the way we live and how globalisation, privatisation and the cut back in welfare have affected society. Everyone has become greedy and the 'me' or "NIMBY" society has been allowed to flourish.

Ryan, you should know after having Thatchula in power for yonks. Is the UK any better than it was before? The status quo changes and people are forced to adapt, and when things start being tough people look for scapegoats.

Whilst we don't have the crime rates or violence of the USA - succeptable teenagers are subject to the constant barrage of violent entertainment that comes from the USA. Now I may sound like a religeous zealot, but good family values are out the door these days. To keep up a mortgage for the average Sydneysider usually requires 2 parents to work.

Gone are the days of the big suburban home and 2 cars in the garage as well as mum at home.

But that is the disintergration of rampant capitalism. If you look at the statistics of most anglo western nations that have trod the 'privatisation' and 'capitalism' paths you will find disturbing trends of rich get richer, poor get poorer and the middle class is divided and split.

Food for thought.

Cheers,

mb
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Fri Aug 31, 2001 8:28 pm


It is certainly unacceptable to let those people boil and be sick on that ship. Can´t they just be receive the emergency medical treatment they need in Australia and then be deported to Norway?
That´s the way it would work out here in Germany - we have a clause in our constitution that says asylum seekers coming from a safe country are automatically turned down, without further examination of their case.
These people are now on Norwegian soil, technically, and could be sent back to Norway then.

Daniel Smile
 
Rickster
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Fri Aug 31, 2001 8:45 pm

Maybe i got something wrong, and maybe I am not really familiar with international asylum rules, but isn´t it so that refugees have to ask for asylum in the next possible "politically stable and safe country" instead of beeing shipped around the world?
Regards Rickster
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Fri Aug 31, 2001 8:56 pm

Well, it depends on the national law of the country where they are applying, and as I´m not really familiar with Australian asylum law I could only refer to the situation here in Germany.
But the thing is, they currently are in Norway - on a Norwegian registered ship.

Daniel Smile
 
SVG
Posts: 277
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 1999 7:15 pm

RE: Airsicknessbag

Sat Sep 01, 2001 12:23 am

They are not on Norwegian soil. You are not on Norwegian soil when you are onboard a Scandinavian Airlines aircraft, and you are not on Norwegian soil when you are on a Norwegian ship. I can't belive you can say something so stupid! If that was the case, then Norway is currently occupied by Australia because they sent armed troops onboard the ship against the will of the captain.

The Norwegian government has said that they are ready to take some of the immigrants, but it is impossible to sail them all the to Norway on that ship! The must first be allowed to enter Christmas Island and then be sent to Norway by plane.
 
airsicknessbag
Posts: 4626
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RE: SVG

Sat Sep 01, 2001 1:09 am

>>>They are not on Norwegian soil. You are not on Norwegian soil when you are onboard a Scandinavian Airlines aircraft, and you are not on Norwegian soil when you are on a Norwegian ship. I can't belive you can say something so stupid!

If you disagree with me, fine. But your last sentence was rather rude and uncalled for.
Now back to the topic, it´s a principle of public international law that BOTH air and seacrafts are technically part of the country whose flag they´re entitled to fly.

>>>it is impossible to sail them all the to Norway on that ship! The must first be allowed to enter Christmas Island and then be sent to Norway by plane.

That´s exactly what I said.
 
Guest

RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Sat Sep 01, 2001 3:18 am

Mx5_boy

Don't forget though, I am not against our hard line on boat people - it would be an absolute nightmare if we had armada's of crappy ships landing on the northwest. Besides the fact that we would be unable to cope with them all - to many lives would be lost upon them discovering nothing but scrub and no water.

Mikey, you have pretty much made my point for me. WE DO have an "armada of crappy ships" heading for our shores every week. I can't find the actual figures, so don't quote me, but isn't the actual "illegal" count upwards of 5,000+ each year? (If not more).

Whilst, I do not like the man who is Ruddick, and have disagreed with many of his policies in the past, I totally agree with his hard-line stance in this instance.

SVG

You are looking like a total tool in your posts here.

Let's look at them shall we?

This case cleary shows that Australians are inhumane and barbaric people.

Oh right.....because Australia takes a higher proportion of refugees per capita than most other OECD countries, we are inhumane and barbaric. We have taken into our country over the years thousands upon thousands of refugees from countries as diverse as Kosovo, Bosnia, Ethiopia, Somalia, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Zimbabwe, South Africa and Sudan, to name but a few.

By the way, what do you expect the Norwegian vessel to do? What you have done if you were the captain of the "Tampa"?

Well, I would expect the captain of the Norwegian "flag" vessel to abide by international laws, and NOT enter Australian waters, after he has been ordered not to. If I was the captain of the Tampa (who is Indonesian correct?) I would turn around and make for Indonesia.

I don't really understand what you mean. The whole world is shocked by the behavriour of the Australian government and the Australian people. You are actually breaking all international laws.

OK...name me ONE international law which my country has broken in refusing a foreign cargo vessel entry into my country's waters. JUST ONE....I wanna hear this one.

Australia is extremely inhumane! It really surprises me that a nation built by immigrants can behave this way.

You are right. To some extent. Australia is a country built on immigrants. HOWEVER, these have been LEGAL immigrants, NOT ILLEGALS!!!! You fail to understand this.

They are not on Norwegian soil. You are not on Norwegian soil when you are onboard a Scandinavian Airlines aircraft, and you are not on Norwegian soil when you are on a Norwegian ship. I can't belive you can say something so stupid!

Actually, you are wrong. Technically, if you are on a vessel with a flag of a particular country on it, you are on the territory of that country. Hence, on the ship in this current case, the people onboard are on Norwegian soil.

If that was the case, then Norway is currently occupied by Australia because they sent armed troops onboard the ship against the will of the captain.

Ahh....the first part you are correct on.

Yes, Australian troops are on the ship. But you have to ask yourself WHY? SAS troops were only airlifted onboard the ship, because the captain of the ship decided it was ok to break the laws of Australia, and attempt to enter Australian waters, after being told that permission to enter our waters was denied. So in actual fact, the troops boarding the ship was not against the will of the captain, because he, and he alone, made the decision to break Australian laws, and by doing so, gave up any right of "sovereignty" upon the entering of Australian waters.

The Norwegian government has said that they are ready to take some of the immigrants, but it is impossible to sail them all the to Norway on that ship!

Good, I am glad that Norway has decided to take some of these refugees. Goodonya!

The must first be allowed to enter Christmas Island and then be sent to Norway by plane.

Ummm....a resounding NO!! If the ship is allowed to enter Australian waters, once the Pakistanis (because I do not believe they are Afghanis) land on Australian soil, they will claim refugee status, which kinda defeats the purpose of the Howard Government refusing entry into our waters in the first place.

-----

Where is Indonesia in all of this? Why does no-one question the routine corruption in that country which actually allows these "Afghanis" to use their territory as a jumping off point to Australia. Shouldn't Indonesia be, therefore, responsible for these people?
 
Rickster
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Sat Sep 01, 2001 3:34 am

Ok Guys you may bash me now, anyway, but reading all this posts about "the world is shocked about how Australia deals with human rights", please, thousands (!)of refugees and "immigration refugees" are sent back daily (!) along European, US or Canadian borders and guys be honest, except churches or social institutions, nobody takes care about this and no media is reporting.

I still did´nt get the point on this story. How does it come that 500 refugees from Afghanistan are on a norwegian containership asking for asylum in Australia. I mean where is Afghanistan and what is the deal with the norwegians. Where is Australia and how and where did they board this ship without any recognition? Did the captain figure out the presence of 500 people on his ship by accident? And why did the captain never contacted or informed his own (norwegian) or any other government in the area about this? I mean It´s a long way from Afghanistan to Australia!
Regards Rickster
 
wirraway
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Sat Sep 01, 2001 3:51 am

It seems some of you don't quite understand who these
ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS are, from this mornings Melbourne
Age:

In July, a group of 250 "boat people" were captured as they sailed from the Cambodian port of Sihanoukville, destined for the northern coast of Australia. During interrogations, it was found that despite claiming to be Afghans in need of asylum, at least half were carrying Pakistani travel documents. Of those who were of Afghan descent, most were born in Pakistan or had lived there for many years.

Australian Federal Police and immigration officers were involved in cracking that particular syndicate. But nobody believes that was the first and last episode. Officials fear the trick of posing as Afghans is fast becoming a well-established pattern of criminal subterfuge.

Such claims are not easily proven. However, in support of their case, officials point to the high costs involved in paying people-smuggling syndicates to arrange an illegal entry into Australia.

The prices range from $1600 to $40,000. Even at the lowest estimate, that is the equivalent of a full year's earnings for the average Afghan. Only a tiny elite within Afghanistan could find the money for the more expensive options.

These prices, though, are not out of reach for Pakistan's middle class.

Moreover, if families are fleeing violent persecution, they would typically leave together, women and children included. Yet three-quarters of those aboard the Tampa are men.

 
SVG
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Joined: Sat Sep 18, 1999 7:15 pm

Dear Aviatsiya

Sat Sep 01, 2001 5:41 am

I do not want to answer your reply. This is not the right place to discuss this very serious issue. I'm horrified by the behaviour of the Australian government and the Australian people. Thank God I live as far away from Australia as possible.
 
tbar220
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Sat Sep 01, 2001 5:50 am

Wow SVG, even I don't know about what's going on. But you say you don't want to answer because its a "very serious issue". But then you go on to make a very odd comment. Disturbed by the behavious of the Australian people? Show where this situation is representative of how the whole Australian people are. I think Australians are very nice and friendly people, and for you to classify them like that is a shame.

And you don't live far enough from Australia, go a little further North, maybe to the north pole. That's farther =P.


 Smile Tzvika  Smile
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Klaus
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Rickster

Sat Sep 01, 2001 6:22 am

Rickster: please, thousands (!)of refugees and "immigration refugees" are sent back daily (!) along European, US or Canadian borders and guys be honest, except churches or social institutions, nobody takes care about this and no media is reporting.

That is not correct. It´s a frequent topic in the german news media. And there is significant (even if not overwhelming) political support in Germany for a stronger emphasis on human rights in that matter.


Rickster: Where is Australia and how and where did they board this ship without any recognition?

As far as I know, the norwegian captain received a request from australian officials to take the refugees on board. If that is true, the current behaviour of the australian government is completely inexcusable.

By the way, they had it in the news that approval numbers in Australia have already dropped to just above 50% - and still falling. I´m not sure if global embarrassment is really the way to go in a re-election campaign...
 
Klaus
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Wirraway

Sat Sep 01, 2001 6:32 am

Wirraway: It seems some of you don't quite understand who these
ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS are,


What you appear to not understand is that this is an emergency.

The australian government is not before the choice between boldly refusing a few impertinent squatters or otherwise being overrun by an uncontrollable mob, as the matter appears to be sold by some.

The current emergency must be solved. I can´t quote the exact paragraph here, but I´m reasonably certain that international naval law binds everyone to help people in immediate danger. It does not say they´ll have to be granted citizenship; In fact, I expect they would be detained and their claims checked on the basis of internationally accepted standards. Those who do not acheive refugee status will be deported.

What makes the australian government look increasingly bad is that they are obviously set to sacrifice lives for a perceived gain in an election campaign.
 
Klaus
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Tbar220

Sat Sep 01, 2001 6:37 am

Tbar220: Show where this situation is representative of how the whole Australian people are. I think Australians are very nice and friendly people, and for you to classify them like that is a shame.

I agree. I don´t believe it´s "the australian people" but instead a misguided government.

When´s the election? Big grin
 
LH423
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RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Sat Sep 01, 2001 10:42 am

First of all, this is not Norway's problem! Let me ask some of the people on here who think that these people should be sent back to Norway: What if they got on the ship registered in your country? In your reasoning, it should automatically be your countries responsibility. These people did not pick and choose the ship they boarded. They probably arranged for this passage and were told where to go. It just so happened that the ship was a Norwegian ship. So what if the ship was Australian registered? Does this automatically mean that they would be Australia's problem? Well, according to you, yes, but it's always easier to colour a problem in a way that it won't affect you.

I am really disheartened by this, because not only was Australia built by immigrants, but they have always considered themselves worldly people, aware of the events and cultures of others around the world.

Australia is doing exactly what the US did in the Elian Gonzales debacle. They are making an example of these people, to send a resounding message. This could all be settled quietly and diplomatically if the Australian government would simply let the boat dock, quarantine the people, and examine the cases case-by-case. There would be no international debate, no potential diplomatic meltdown between Norway and Australia, and for at least some people, the dream of a better life in a democratic society would remain alive.

One other thing. Certain nations have much more lax shipping registration laws than others, Norway being one of them. Companies and organizations often take advantage other the tax exemptions provided by certain nations like Liberia, Costa Rica, and, yes, Norway. I do not know the name of the shipping company that owns the vessel, but it is also quite possible that the company isn't even Norwegian.

I am saddened by the behaviour of the Australian government, and hope that these people will be given the proper care and necessary treatment.

LH423

P.S. Aviasiya: C'mon. Don't you know any Norwegian?  Smile Arne Rinnan is definitely a Norwegian name.
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
cicadajet
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"Primary Responsibility"

Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:13 am

Newly elected Indonesian President Megawati Sukarnoputri has so far refused to take them in either. The sprawling Southeast Asian nation already has 1.3 million of its own people displaced and homeless from communal, religious and separatist conflicts.

U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Mary Robinson said Australia bore ``primary responsibility'' for the migrants and should accept them.
 
cicadajet
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 1:54 am

RE: Australia's Human Rights Record, Shot?

Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:23 am

"sick and tired" of "uncontrollable" illegal immigrants...
???
Nice rhetoric. ..and apparently "popular" too.
no room at the Aussie inn....
what is that? "whinging" ???


<
``I believe it is in Australia's national interest that we draw a line on what is increasingly becoming an uncontrollable number of illegal arrivals in this country,'' he said.

The asylum seekers have been in a diplomatic limbo since they were plucked from a foundering Indonesian ferry by the Norwegian freighter on Monday. Australia, Norway and Indonesia have all refused to take them in.

They're being watched by elite Australian troops with orders to stop them from jumping overboard and to keep the ship from docking on Christmas Island.

On Thursday, Howard told U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan by telephone that he would not allow the vessel to drop off the estimated 460 people aboard, whom he maintained had flouted immigration rules.

His hardline stance appears to have gained him greater popularity domestically as Australia prepares for a general election later this year. Opinion polls say many Australians want growing illegal immigration stopped.

The leader of the right-wing One Nation party, Pauline Hanson, supported Howard's position and said Australians were ``sick and tired'' of illegal immigrants. >>

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