Guest

Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 5:19 pm

What do you think?

I believe we should:

Stop sending money to Israel. I'm really no fan of the PLO ways, but the simple fact of the matter is that the Jews came into the region and just drove out Palestinians.

Get rid of the no-fly zones in Iraq, take out all the bugs placed in Saddam's palace and leave the people alone. Why does the US always preach about national sovereignty when we are violating another's? Abraham Lincoln was just as much a dictator as is Hussein.

Reduce our dependency on foreign oil. When we're not get screwed outselves we are out extorting and screwing other countries.

Not Middle east by while were in the Islamic region, the US should stop sending arms to Pakistan. These arms only end up going to militants out to kill innocent Hindus and nationalist Muslims in India, and also goes to the Talebin.

Overall, I think we should stay away from the region a little bit more. The leaders don't want us telling them how to run their own countries. Although I don't agree with the way most Islamic countries are ruled, they can be ruled however they want. We should definetely maintain ties with Israel, like we shoud with al democracies.
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 5:38 pm

the isolationistst are active again...
I wish I were flying
 
advancedkid
Posts: 740
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 1:27 pm

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Fri Aug 31, 2001 12:40 am

Hi there,
I agree with you Sir. On top of that I would also
slash any kind of aid sent to foreign regimes.
I am afraid our logical proposals will only fall on
deaf ears... because the big boys up there
love to see their businesses thriving.
War and conflict zones are BIG businesses too!!
regards.
Advanced
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Fri Aug 31, 2001 12:50 am

How quickly we forget that isolantionism gets us nowhere in this world. Israel is not a "regime", Advancedkid; they are a Parlimentary Democracy. The are surrounded by terrorists, and countries that have no clue as to what democracy is. You pull support away from Israel, and you'll inviate a major Middle East War, which, if Israel is pushed against the wall, will involve the possible use of nuclear weapons.

Whether we like it or not, the United States is the only stable influence on a good portion of the globe. Russia isn't stable enough, and China's influence is as negative as it can get. Simply pulling away from the world does nothing but make things worse. These idiotic calls for cutting all foreign aid, and to isolate from the world has been proven by history to be more damaging then helpful.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Fri Aug 31, 2001 12:54 am

"because the big boys up there
love to see their businesses thriving.
War and conflict zones are BIG businesses too!! "


Speaking as someone who has done business in such countries, before, during and after conflicts, that's BS! Wars disrupt trade routes and impoverish countries (so they can't buy your goods). The only "businessmen" who gain in such situations are smugglers and mafias.

Teddy Roosevelt said "Speak softly and carry a big stick". I tend to agree with that. The U.S. should try to withdraw itself from the world stage. Every day we (outside the U.S.) hear "The U.S. says X", or "The U.S. demands Y". After a while, it just doesn't mean much anymore. I think the U.S. should back off, but still retain the power to make themselves respected, when needed.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
advancedkid
Posts: 740
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 1:27 pm

RE:Alpha 1 & CfalkOut Of The Middle East?

Fri Aug 31, 2001 1:24 am

Hi there,
Alpha 1, do you fail to see that the very US
grants aid to the regimes of countries surrounding
Israel whom you rightfully descriibe as non-
democratic??
I would like to see no aid to anyone.
Remember much of the arms high-tech that the Iraqi
regime had was US supplied.
And Cfalk, yes the conflict in the ME is big business
for for the weapon industry, most of it based in the US.
Isn't it??
Regards.
Advanced
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Fri Aug 31, 2001 1:29 am

I wholehearted agree with Cfalk, Advancekid and Airic on this one. Unfortunately you (Airic) have opened up another can of worms here and expect the pro-Israel gang to write a chapter in all of their post bashing you for this.
Dwight D. Eisenhower warned us about the "Industrial Military Complex" in his famous last speech as President in 1961.
The United States is now stuck with a leech (Israel) on its neck with the Middle East situation. I wonder if our economy can even survive with out spreading weapons though out unstable governments.



http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html

I am anticipating an 'asswipping' for my remarks here in this forum, but that's OK.
When I return in a few hours once I get out of a meeting, I expect to see post 3-4 paragraphs in length justifying our sick foreign policy.



I'll be back in 3 hours.  Smile

Bring back the Concorde
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Fri Aug 31, 2001 1:31 am

The arms industry is but a fraction of the business in other areas, like consumer goods, automobiles, etc. which would result from a stable environment.

Also, I would not say that most of the arms in the region come from the U.S., which is more particular about who they sell weapons to than other countries like China, Russia and France, who will sell to anybody.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
RealHigh
Posts: 924
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RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Fri Aug 31, 2001 3:30 am

I think the US should stay out of the Middle East. I don't see that happening. It serves the US Gov. interest to continue fighting between Israel and Palestine.

I am really shocked by Alpha1's comments about Israel being surrounded by terrorist! That is some of the most racist comment I heard you ever make! I guess you believe that the lives of Arabs are less important than Israeli's. Is that what you meant to say?
That is certainly was the US propaganda machine is feeding its citizens.
 
Guest

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Fri Aug 31, 2001 4:20 am

Okay Jwenting, I see it now. When some problems arise, you want the US to be there, to take in the blame. When the US is there, we get crap thrown at us. When we want out, we're "isolationist."
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Fri Aug 31, 2001 9:46 pm

RealHigh, how is that racists? You're sounding like those nuts at this Racism conference. That isn't a racists statemet: it's fact!! If you can't see that, you're incredibly blind. All you have to do is look at your history, which includes the killing of Israeli athletes in Munich at the '72 Olympics by Palestinian terrorists, hijackings and the like-plus this current-day suicide bomb madness. Those are terrorists acts, no matter what you might think.

And you make one mistake RealHigh: you assume I was callling ALL Arabs "terrorists", which I never said. I said they're surround by terrorists, which is a fact. They come from Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, but it certainly does not include everyone who lives in those countries.

Until the Arab World, as a rule, drops their demand for the destruction of Israel (Mubarak still has a Middle East map in his office that does not show Israel on it....), that country will continue to defend itself with everything it can. And, if you to step into their shoes, you'd do the same thing. It's absurd to even think of giving up land or cutting a deal while such violence continues.

Having said that, I think both Israel and the Palestinians have made poor choices for current leaders. Sharon has never believed in peace with the Palestinians, and Arafat, despite the change in his public image, hasn't changed one iota from the heyday of the PLO in the 1970's. If both sides had less stringent leaders, you might see some progress in this muddled situation.
 
tbar220
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RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Fri Aug 31, 2001 10:10 pm

Realhigh, I have have to agree with you on what you said. I'm an from Israel, and I certainly don't think that they are surrounded by crazed, blood thirsty terrorists (that's how I saw the original post). They aren't terrorists, and the majority of the people want peace. Even the Arabs and the Palestinians within Israel want peace, except for the radical groups that dont.

And I don't know if there are terrorists coming from Egypt or Jordan, the countries have been at peace with Israel for many years now. The only place where there is a serious flow of bombers and the likes is Syria and Lebanon, which really have no strong government or a democracy in place.

Tzvika
NO URLS in signature
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Sat Sep 01, 2001 12:43 am

Tbar220, they're not surrounded by terrorists? Then explain all these young fanatics blowing themselves up in cars and vans to kill Israeli's?

My goodness, but you guys are blind.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Sat Sep 01, 2001 1:18 am

Alpha1:
Why is it that you have to jump down the throats of everyone you disagree with? You are one of the older (age) members here and I would expect more.
Me and Tbar220 have our differences on this issue but I have nothing against him personally. We remain civil. I never make any personal attacks solely because I disagree with them.
For your information Alpha1, I know RealHigh personally. Her father was killed by Israelis when she was 13. He was in bed sleeping while visiting relatives. Israelis 'suspected' that there were terrorist in that village but obviously had no concrete evidence. All 7 people killed in that attack were innocent people and their only crime was being Palestinian.

Your remarks were very racist in content. I realized it and so did Tbar220 who supports Israel.



Bring back the Concorde
 
jessman
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 1:11 pm

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Sat Sep 01, 2001 3:48 am

For once I agree with Superfly on Israel.
I am pro Israel, Superfly; But I am an isolationist. I do not believe it is the duty of the US to put their nose into the affairs of other countries. That is why I oppose the UN and also I oppose US military presence abroad, with the possible exception of Japan, which has no military force of its own.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Sat Sep 01, 2001 4:05 am

Jessman:
You are right. As for the UN, I think they have a lot of good intentions. If the UN is going to ask the US for military assistance, then other countries should be willing to put up the necessary military support as well.
I do believe that Jews deserve their own homeland just as the Palestinians do! Jerusalem should be an autonomous region or like the Vatican.

Bring back the Concorde
 
jessman
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 1:11 pm

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Sat Sep 01, 2001 4:59 am

I tried to post this before, but I cannot see it so here goes again.
I agree with superfly/AdvancedKid/etc. on this one. I actually would like the US to be isolationist. I don't think it's the correct role of the US to play "world police"
We in the US have enough troubles with racism, poverty and the like to keep us occupied with ourselves.
I'm not against humanitarian aid, food, clothes and the like; But Guns, soldiers, and tanks should not be used in conflicts that do not explicitly involve the US.
Just my two cents.
 
N863DA
Posts: 1140
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:36 am

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Sat Sep 01, 2001 5:35 am

One must consider that it is a WAR (albeit undeclared) - it's going on at the moment.

In the war, people will die - innocent people (ON BOTH SIDES) will die. RealHigh, I do understand why you feel vitriolic to the Israelis, but one who is detached more than RealHigh must consider the bigger picture, (and also realize that in war, innocent people do die).

For me personally, I agree that the US should pull out of the Middle East - at least then, America would be less of a 'imperialistic enemy' to the rest of the Islamic/Muslim/Arab (or combination thereof) world.

However, until that time comes, I feel strongly enough to agree with N400QX. I feel that we shouldn't be there, granted, but the very fact that we are should mean that we are 100% behind Israel, albeit without Sharon at the head.

But then of course, we also have to consider that he was elected and thus the majority of Elegible voting Israelis voted for him. (Some of you may advocate scrapping this democracy - or debate its existence in the first place - but it certainly in place and verifiable.)

Food for thought. Everyone has an opinion. We're not berating Superfly and RealHigh for their opinions - so please don't berate us for our opinions, as you are currently doing.

I will not get into 'Liberal' versus 'Conservative', because it is not relevant, but it would seem that both RealHigh and Superfly do not tolerate our opinions - and yet they force us to accept theirs. It's give and take here, people. We are just as entitled to believe that Israel is the 'greater good' in this conflict, as you are to believe that they are not. Not tolerating our opinions makes you as ignorant and closeminded as the worst fundamentalist Palestinians, Israelis, KKK members or any other extremist group.

FLY DELTA JETS and sail UNITED STATES LINES



N 8 6 3 D A
 
cba
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:02 pm

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Sat Sep 01, 2001 7:01 am

Just to set things straight, the US never gave weapons to Iraq. All of the weapons and technology Iraq got is former Soviet technology.
 
Superfly
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Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Sat Sep 01, 2001 7:40 am

N863DA:
I am note berating anyone elses opinion in this thread. Did you comprehend my above post? I thought I was rather humble in my language. I can't speak for RealHigh but I can certainly speak out against the injustices our country is supporting worldwide including Israel. I can only imagine what it is like to loss a parent. When I see a onesided story on the major networks that are strongly in favor of Israel , It all adds up. The rest of the world thinks we are crazy for supporting this blatant abuse of human rights by Israel.
Bring back the Concorde
 
N863DA
Posts: 1140
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:36 am

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Sat Sep 01, 2001 7:58 am

If you (or RealHigh) are not berating pro-Israeli people, then I apologize.

Just because the rest of the world thinks we are crazy, doesn't mean we are. (At least not relative to ourselves).

But I do advocate pulling out in the long run. I fear that one day, it'll all erupt, and we (as we already are) will be caught in the cross-fire.

FLY DELTA JETS and sail UNITED STATES LINES



N 8 6 3 D A
 
Guest

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Sat Sep 01, 2001 10:40 pm

On the sanctions on Iraq...

Uncle Sam has a very bloody stain on his white shirt.



 
Guest

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Sun Sep 02, 2001 12:52 am

Alpha 1 has understood; Tbar220, you should really open a little bit your eyes!
 
LH423
Posts: 5868
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 6:27 am

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Sun Sep 02, 2001 2:46 pm

toda,Reisinger: How can you argue with someone from Israël?! How can you say that he needs to open his eyes? I suppose your vision of the situation is 20/20 as you sit back on the shores of Lake Geneva?

Personally, I am not going to get involved in this. Let's just say that they have been fighting for 2000 years, and just because the surrounding have become a bit more civilized, doesn't mean that they are going to put down their weapons and discuss this over tea in Jerusalem. The fact is, there's far too much at stake for both sides to just give up. And while the US could leave, it could only end up worse than it already is. We may never see peace in that section of the world, because both sides seem hell-bent on not taking a compromise on the situation, but at least we're trying.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
Guest

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Sun Sep 02, 2001 5:45 pm

LH423,

toda,Reisinger is Israeli, has lived in Israel, and has very strong knowledge of the conflict. He knows it better than Tbar220 who is in LA, USA.

Avion757,

Your mistaken. Iraq has droppings on its shirt. After massacureing Kurdish refugees, invading a soverign enemy, and bombing a non-agressor, Iraq has shown itself to be a bloody evil regime. The USA and UK are the only two countries that realize this and are taking the propper steps to contain a very violent and dangerous regime from developing weapons of mass destruction.

N863DA,

Well written opinions. I agree that Sharon is not optimal, but I assume you know why he was elected. He was elected because he assured Israelis he would put an end to violence and secure the country (hell of a campaign promise). His efforts have been shoddy, but he appealed to Israel's sense of security versus Barak who wished to negotiate as school buses were blowing up.

Cba,

Sadly, some of Iraq's arrmaments are US supplied. As you know, the US viewed Iraq as a strategic ally in the region during the Iran-Iraq conflict and supported Iraq in its battles with the Islamic Republic.

Jessman,

Isolationist and appeasement are dangerous and wrong. Please read a history textbook to further understand this.

Tbar220,

Israel is surrounded by terrorists. Please do not be blind to this. Terrorists are defined as people who attempt to instill terror into a society. Acts of this type occuring on average 25 times a day in Israel and the occupied territories. Read the IDF blotter found at www.IDF.il for a better understanding of the situation in the ME.

Superfly,

Please read Eisenhower's Military-Industrial Complex speech (not Industrial Military Complex) delivered in 1961. If you read it carefully, you will notice D.D. advocated not isolationism and a blind eye to world events, but rather an active stance in world politics with a close eye on who and how our military is influenced by domestic forces (ie the Military-Industrial Complex).

You must understand that if the US turns a blind eye to world events, more blood will be spilled. The US has/does/will do act as a moderator and facilitator in peace negotiations. The US has armed Israel because

-Israel provides military inteligence to the US on groups and coutries that wish to destroy the US (and you!).
-Has been invaded three times by hostile neighbors
-Is a complete democracy in an island of dictatorships.
Is the subject of a brutal terror campaign by groups wishing to destabalize the region.

It is far more advantageous for the US if the area was calm and peaceful where democracy and free trade can reign than in a war zone, with destroyed cities.

AdvancedKid,

Perhaps you can follow this line of reasoning too. As far as isolationist, I also advise you to read a history textbook. You can start at the chapter dealing with an act called "appeasement" in a city called Munich.

When the US turns a blind eye, people die. It's that simple. The world needs a stablizing force that will promote peace, democracy and the overthrow of corrupt regimes, organizations, and terror groups.

regards
TNNH
 
IndianGuy
Posts: 3126
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 3:14 pm

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 12:19 am

Right. And Japan. and Europe as well. Its time Europe began looking for European Solutions to European problems. And Asian's look for our own solutions.
 
jessman
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 1:11 pm

RE: Should The US Pull Out Of The Middle East?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 5:57 am

I politely disagree with you TWANNH; I interpret history differently than you. For example appeasement at Munich france gave what was not it's to give and Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia in the name of "protecting the german minority." Hmmm, lets look at this from a different angle One country sends a military force into another country to protect the opressed. Sound familiar?
When the US stayed out of the WWII conflict until war was brought to it the leaders of that time saved countless US lives.
The US has it's own problems. How would you have liked it if the UN sent troops from Belgium and France to help the Cincinnati police calm the riots caused by racism that is rampant in our society, or better yet, to help the rioters gain their "human rights". We should be willing to take whatever we give. I simply don't believe the US has the solutions to world problems. For goodness sake the needs of Bostonians differ from the needs of Floridians, what makes us think our solutions will work in parts of the world that vary so vastly from our culture.
If we are brought into a conflict; that's different. But to send our people and our weapons to places that are not attacking our property is wrong.
Or maybe you want a united states of world. LOL. Lets see how well that goes over when we have to draft a new constitution to appease all groups involved in that.
I basically agree with the above post by Indianguy, except for Japan. The japan issue is complicated because the japanese constitution prohibits it from having a standing military, and they do need something to maintain their soverignty, although I wish it wasn't the US per se, just something.

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