tbar220
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U.N. Racism Conference

Mon Sep 03, 2001 2:02 am

What do I find most disturbing about this?

Not the whole anti-Israel topic there. But rather, that Fidel Castro is recieving the most attention by the media. Why is Fidel Castro calling on the United States to pay reparations for slavery? I think he should be called upon to pay reparations to his people for the lives they've been forced to lead.

And worst of all, that friend of ours Jesse Jackson has managed to get himself high priority by the media at the conference. I really despise him, simply because to me, it appears that his only goal in life is to get himself on the front page of the news paper whenever ANYTHING happens that's newsworthy and relating to race in any way at all.

Any comments?


Tzvika
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tupolev154b2
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Mon Sep 03, 2001 8:12 am

Fidel should worry about his own business and compensate for the people that his government has killed, including the exiles whose plane was shot down.
 
Guest

RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Mon Sep 03, 2001 8:52 am

Tzvika,

It's the tall poppy syndrome mate. When the so-called greatest nation on Earth sticks it's head up and calls upon other countries on human rights abuses, (racism etc) you can expect other nations to immediately try lop the USA's head off.

Regardless of whether it's right or wrong, other nations may come up with the insane and ridiculous just to make headlines.

(No offense to any Yanks out there - just stating what I think happens.)

Cheers,

mb
 
Alpha 1
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Mon Sep 03, 2001 9:59 am

Jesse Jackson is there with his stick to stir up the shit. That's all he ever does. Same with Fidel and Yassar Arafat.
 
sccutler
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Mon Sep 03, 2001 12:22 pm

1. MX5- why would anyone beoffended by your comment? Seems you're on the money.

2. If you let The Reverend Jesse Jackson disturb you, well, that's your choice. Of course he's a publicity-hound; it's what he does, who he is. A pious man of the cloth cannot live the big life like he does; maintaining a high profile and stirring up new and amplified trouble serves his purpose.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
us330
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Mon Sep 03, 2001 12:29 pm

Not trying to sound racist here, but if the African countries receive an official apology from the European and North American countries for their part in slavery, then I think the Jewish people should demand an apology from the Spanish for their treatment of Jews during the Spanish Inquisition. Why not? Both happened around the same time period.

 
tbar220
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Mon Sep 03, 2001 12:37 pm

Mx5, I totally understand. Of course that's going to happen. I'm just annoyed at the cynicism and hypocricy of it all. Every nation is displaying it, including the U.S. You think anything's going to change after this conference? In my opinion, no.

Us330, that's not racist at all. I'm jewish, and I think that's a preposterous idea. Asking for reparations for something that happened in Spain 500 years ago is absurd. I think even an apology isn't necessary, it is ancient history, and while it was bad, it is said and done, and people have moved on. I think the same about slavery, which while it was more recent, there are no more people alive from those generations. People need to move on and accept what happened, as terrible as they may be.


Tzvika
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JetService
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Mon Sep 03, 2001 1:01 pm

Seems Arafat and Rev. Jackson are have a quarrel. Jesse asked Yassar to put a lease on the anti-Isreali talk and claims to have gotten complience. Arafat went ahead with the 'Zionism equates Racism' mantra. Jesse complained and Yassar told Jesse to go jump in a lake. Anyone catch that?

Why the hell is Fidel even there?!?!?!?!?!
"Shaddap you!"
 
Guest

RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Mon Sep 03, 2001 1:02 pm

Scuttler,

I wasn't trying to offend anyone, but I know that some of you are not so tough! lol

Tvika,

It's called politiking. I should imagine a lot of Middle Eastern nations are going to protest at various things, even to sabotage reasonable outcomes from the talks. The same goes for other nations around the world, it seems like everyone is going to point the finger to create some kind of ruckus to disrupt the event.

Repatriations are a joke and only open up the world to some serious legal challenges.

Cheers,

mb
 
tbar220
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Mon Sep 03, 2001 1:02 pm

Where did you read about this jetservice?
NO URLS in signature
 
Guest

RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Mon Sep 03, 2001 1:51 pm

Well if all the Middle Eastern nations are going to start pointing the finger at Israel, I would like to see their response to Islamic Fundamentalism. I agree reparations are a joke, I don't want my taxes going to something that happened over 150 years ago and by 1 percent of the population.
 
jwenting
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Mon Sep 03, 2001 4:18 pm

This entire conference was organised only to hurt Israel, the USA and Europe.
The ANC and PLO (the real organisers, the UN is there only to give it a veneer of legitimacy, the chairman is a black Muslim...) have a wellknown racist agenda: elimination of whites and jews worldwide.
I wish I were flying
 
Guest

RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Mon Sep 03, 2001 6:15 pm

"Israel commits acts of genocide"

for any SANE person who does not profoundly hate the Jewish people for whatever reason, the use of the word "genocide" is an abomination.

But this conference should once and for all open the eyes of the Israelis and the Jews worldwide: the degree of anti-semitism is much higher than it is believed to be, the hatred is very present all over the world. And, most important, in case of war Israel will have no exterior help in a struggle for its very survival.

Tens of thousands of Kurds have been killed by Saddam Hussein's chemical bombs - it's not even a subject in Durban
Syria has killed 20'000 Islamists in the early 80s - it's not a conversation subject in Durban
Tens if not hundreds of thousands people have been and are killed in Algeria, where the Govt policies are more than weird... - Algerian PM is warmly welcomed to attack Israel at Durban
In Sudan, Christian minorities are terribly persecutated - no mention in Durban
52 persons "accused" of homosexuality are facing a so-called trial in Egypt right now - no mention neither, but Egypt gives human rights lessons to Israel
Palestinian terror groups organize suicide attacks against Israeli civilians, including teens and children - but Israel is committing "genocide"

Most of the participants in this forum are perhaps happy with this NGO "declaration"; they should rather be ashamed.

Durban is called an anti-racist conference, but it's hard to find another place on earth where so many and violent anti-semitic pamphlets are circulating...
The Conference on racism is proning anti-semitism and advocating the Arab aim of eliminating 5 millions Jews in Israel.

If only Hitler could have lived to witness this; how happy would he be!
 
IndianGuy
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Mon Sep 03, 2001 6:57 pm

I fail to understand what these silly conferences are going to achieve. People who are being persecuted continue to be persecuted inspite of all these conferences being held fo the past 50 years. What is required is action on the ground, but politicians across the world refuse to act for reasons of political expediency.

No politician in the US talks of taking action against agencies like the KKK among others and taking action against racism.

I dont think an issue like racism can be handled by such conferences. what is required is education. Children in schools must be taught about the issue and rights and wrongs of it. Only then can we truly eradicate racism.
 
timmay
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Mon Sep 03, 2001 7:32 pm


The delegates at the Durban conference should take head of the insightful words written by Martin Luther King JNR on Zionism and anti-semitism :

". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.


"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.


"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.


"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.


"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land. This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.


"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.


"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!


"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share. Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."


 
Guest

RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Mon Sep 03, 2001 9:28 pm

TIMMAY

Thank you very much for this historic quotation.
It is really an extraordinary declaration, so intelligent and CLEAR. I am deeply impressed.

Nothing more needs to be said.

Too sad he is no more among us.
He would have been a light in this somber "conference".
 
cfalk
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Mon Sep 03, 2001 10:02 pm

Insightful words, to be sure. However, I would ask people to read it carefully:

How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land. This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.

The right to live on their own land of Israel. Good enough, and I fully support that. But the West Bank and Gaza are NOT part of Israel. Some maps made by some segments of Israeli authorities show it to be part of Israel, but all other maps show it to be occupied territory.

The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.

Well this was written in the 1960's, when much of Africa was still under European colonial authority, but that is hardly true anymore. Liberia was created specifically to be a homeland for freed slaves wishing to go home from the USA, and we all know what a paradise that place has become.

By the way, about the slavery issue and the demands for apologies and restitution. Slavery was a very common practice in Africa long before the Europeans came, and in some parts of Africa, the practice continues to this day. The slave traders that sold slaves to European and then American traders were black Africans themselves, and were in business well before the foreigners came - and many are still in business. In fact, slaves are frequently found to be part of the entourage of African and Middle-Eastern diplomats around the world. The whole world practiced slavery at one time or another. And while American slavery is the best-documented (and thus most easily targeted), I don't feel any country has the right to critisize any other on this practice, and certainly not those in Africa.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
jwenting
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Mon Sep 03, 2001 10:48 pm

Charles, the west bank of the river Jordan IS part of the state of Israel as defined in the UN charter of 1948.
It was conquered in war by Jordan during their first invasion of Israel that same year. When Israel liberated the area decades later they were condemned by that same UN for doing so, as the UN had become a slave of Arab oil.

I am not certain about the Gaza strip, but I believe the same holds true there.
The only lands Israel took in war that were not assigned to them by the UN are the Sinai (since returned to Egypt) and the Golan heights (from which Syrian artillery can target the whole of Israel with impunity if they ever get it back).

You are correct on slavery.
Africa still has a large population of slaves, and so does Asia (there mostly captives to seapirates).
These nations are hypocritical to demand reparations from the rest of the world, as usual they are only after some quick money so they don't have to work themselves.
From enslaving their own people they attempt to progress to enslaving the entire industrialised world.
I wish I were flying
 
Guest

RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Mon Sep 03, 2001 11:25 pm

Cfalk, don't be so hypocrite...
Anti-Zionism has nothing to do with questions of borders; it's an opposition to the legitimacy of an independant Jewish State no matter its borders.


Jwenting, neither the "West Bank" nor the Gaza strip have been, in modern history, part of the State of Israel: these territories were to become a second Arab State in Mandate Palestine, between Transjordan and Israel. But after the pan-Arab attempt to destroy Israel the very day of its birth, Transjordan occupied the West Bank and "east" Jerusalem, and Egypt entered in the "Gaza strip", where its army was blocked at Kibbutz Yad Mordechai.
Transjordan, a totally artificial State created by Great Britain in 1922 on 3/4 of Mandate Palestine, annexed these regions and changed its name (!...) to "Jordan".

Amazingly, the whole world accepted this move and nobody protested. Since then, the West Bank has been depicted as being a legitimate part of Jordan, and Gaza is considered Egyptian.

Israelis and Jews were no more allowed to their holiest places and the Jewish quarter was methodically demolished, but nobody in the world cared about it.
Jerusalem was in Arab hands, but no State made it its capital city.
Israel has never annexed these territories, apart from Jerusalem.
 
JetService
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Mon Sep 03, 2001 11:51 pm

Tbar, I read this in the Sunday paper.
"Shaddap you!"
 
cfalk
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 12:26 am

Toda,

Care to explain where you thought I was being hypocritical?

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 1:28 am

Cfalk
When you say that what MLK Jr is "insightful but the West Bank and Gaza are NOT part of Israel", this is typical hypocrisy.
Indeed, you want to give the impression that anti-Zionism is actually justified, MLK Jr' remarks being unapplicable to Israel.
You want to lure your reader so that they believe the conflict is purely and simply a question of borders. It is not, and you just need to look at Durban to see this blantly.

BTW, Barak had given to Arafat the whole WB and Gaza; if the real Palestinian goals were the ones they declare for Western audiences, the conflict could have been solved a year ago. But to understand their actual goal, one has to hear what Palestinian leaders are declaring again and again to the Arab audiences...
One exemple among many: "The strategical goal of the Palestinian people remains unchanged: the liberation of Palestine, from the River to the sea" (F. Husseini, a "moderate", a few weeks before his recent death)

But, I suppose, you know better the Palestinian aspirations than they do themselves.
 
us330
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 4:10 am

I think the UN is shooting itself in the foot on this one. The US and Israel have pulled out of the racism conference, and now the UN looks more exclusive then inclusive. Israel committing genocide. That is a load of BS. Genocide is what happened in Kosovo, Rwanda, and Europe under Hitler. I don't see Israeli soldiers going to each in every palestinian village systematically and shooting all of the palestinians.
Does anybody bother to mention about the Sudan and how just about 25% of its population is enslaved?
 
cfalk
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 4:25 am

What a load of Crud!!!

I said that Zionism did not apply to the West Bank and Gaza, and YOU extend that to mean that I'm an anti-semetic anti-Zionist, therefore implying someone who would like to see Israel written off the map!

When I went to school, Logic was a required course. You apparently missed that one, or else you mis-statement was intentional.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
tbar220
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 5:12 am

This comment was made of the United States' removal from the conference.

"This is going to be a big disappointment for victims of racism everywhere in the world. The United States is using a political smoke screen to avoid dealing with the many very real issues at this conference,'' said Reed Brody, who led the conference delegation for Human Rights Watch. "

That's the biggest load of bull I've ever read. What other issues? Reparations for Native Americans? Reparations for Black Slaves? I'm not being racist, but I think those issues are squat. This conference is so stupid, they are not concentrating on the real issues, only on issues that will make their nations come out as the "morally" strong nation, and on top of the news! It pisses me off so much, because there are so many important things that need to be discussed that aren't being discussed.

This is beginning to show to me that the U.N. is really not a fair and equal governing body, but a farce controlled by political squabbling and group demands. What a waste, its going to be like another "League of Nations".


Tzvika
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Guest

RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 5:28 am

Please read my posting titled "Beautiful Speech at Durban" which is a speech writen by Deputy Foreign Minister Michael Melchior and delivered at UNWCAR.

It is a very pretty and very acurate description of the prejudices and hijackings occuring in the Horn of Africa right now.

TNNH
 
Twotterwrench
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 9:26 am

This confernce is nothing but a blatant promotion IN FAVOR of racism. It's okay to be racist as long as you are bashing Jews or Americans. I am glad the US delegation had the balls to thumb their nose at these pseudo-intellectuals. I think that is a more powerful message than any of the garbage being spewed by the UN delegates.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 11:42 am

Amen, Twotterwrench.
 
Carioca Canuck
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 1:31 pm

The reason those of you who support Zionism are against this racism conference is because THE WHOLE WORLD IS WATCHING THIS TIME.

Here are some interesting parallels to consider......

A "Greater Israel" needed to create more space for immigrants = Lebensraum, the German campaign for living space in WWII.

4 million Palestinians ethnically cleansed and removed from areas reserved for Jews = Holocaust

Palestinians herded into enclaves on the West Bank,
movements restricted, harrassed and humiliated at numerous military checkpoints = Jewish Ghettos

Seperate ID cards and number plates = Yellow Star of David Badge

Homes, olive groves, farms, livelyhoods destroyed = Kristallnacht

Suppression of truth in the media = book burning of 1933

It looks like those unfortunate soles who survived at least learned well enough from their masters in order to implement these policies.

Logical rebuttals please....no flames.

Some text borrowed from michael_co at Lonely Planet's website.
 
Twotterwrench
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 1:57 pm

hey canuck, let's not forget the Palestian war against grocery stores and pizza parlors. All those women and children who present such a threat to the peace process.
 
tbar220
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 2:00 pm

Carioca Canuck,

You say to make logical response to your post, but how can I when yours is filled with so much false logic and false facts? Your ignoracne shows how you can be so full of hate. It doesn't upset me, because if it is hate directed by ignorance, I know that there is no point in being upset. You will get flamed because one of the things that people respect the most on this forum is stating the truth, not putting hate filled posts like that.

As to your post....

A "Greater Israel" needed to create more space for immigrants

This is no way equal to what the Germans were doing in WWII. Israel is the idea of Zionism, not an idea of wiping out the Palestinians. Misleading fact #1.

4 million Palestinians ethnically cleansed and removed from areas reserved for Jews = Holocaust

Show me where the jews killed 4 million Palestinians. And to use the term Holocaust is incorrect. The definition in the American Heritage Dictionary...

"Holocaust: The genocide of European Jews and others by the Nazis during World War II"

So please use the term correctly. Misleading fact #2.

Palestinians herded into enclaves on the West Bank,
movements restricted, harrassed and humiliated at numerous military checkpoints = Jewish Ghettos


The Palestinians aren't herded by the Jews into the enclaves in Gaza and the West Bank. They were herded there by Jordan and Egypt, and when those lands were offered to be given back to the respective nations, they weren't taken...because those nations wouldn't deal with the Palestinians themselves, even though now they are calling them their Arab brothers. And the measures at the military checkpoints are absolutely necessary, because it now seems that the only thing that most Palestinians in the area have on their minds is Israeli blood. You in no way can compare this to the Jewish Ghettos, where thousands of people died of starvation and systematic slaughter by German soldiers. Not to mention that they were eventually just rounded up and shipped to the ovens, or taken to a forest and brutally murdered. How dare you compare this to what happened back then. Misleading fact #3.

Seperate ID cards and number plates = Yellow Star of David Badge

Of course they have separate ID cards and number plates, they are a different population. The Palestinians are a different people, they are not part of the Israeli population. It is like a different nation in itself. The only reason is because they aren't Israeli citizens and most aren't even residents in Israel. Its like having Mexicans or Canadians in the U.S.A. They have different ID's and different number plates. You cannot compare that to the yellow star that Jews were forced to wear. This was to say that they are basically targets for anything that German military or people wanted. This was singling them out for violence and a life of hardship that was forced upon them unwillingly, and was just the first step in the ultimate goal of their complete annihilation. Misleading fact #4.

Homes, olive groves, farms, livelyhoods destroyed = Kristallnacht

The homes that are destroyed are homes where terrorists are housed, and homes where militants are launching mortar attacks on Israel from. Israel is not destroying farms, and they are not destroying olive groves. Kristallnacht was the destruction of Jewish places of worship all across Germany. If I'm not mistaken, it is the Palestinians who are destroying Jewish places of worship (i.e.,destruction of Josephs tomb, throwing rocks on worshipers at the Western Wall). And you have the ignorance to compare it to Kristallnacht? Misleading fact #5.

Suppression of truth in the media = book burning of 1933

The Palestinian media brainwashes their public into hating the Israelis. True, the Israeli newspapers aren't too great, they are biased for sure, but they are not suppressed by the government as if it were some dictatorship. Comparing it to the book burning in pre-WWII Germany is one of the most igorant things I've read. Even people who are anti-Israel probably have a little more logic than you and can realize that this is an absurd comparison (maybe I'm wrong). Misleading fact #6.

It looks like those unfortunate soles who survived at least learned well enough from their masters in order to implement these policies.

Why the f*** would the people that survived the Holocaust do the same things to another people? That's like saying that Blacks in America should enslave whites, that Native Americans should wipe out Americans. That is the stupidest thing in your post, to think that people would do such hate filled things because it was done to them. Have you ever met a Holocaust survivor? They certainly do not have blood of Palestinians on their mind. Their goal in life certainly isn't to enforce what the German government did to them on another people, and that certainly isn't happening now.

I said that before I started to respond to your post that I would not be angry, but now more I see how you are trying to spread hate here, and then say "Logical rebuttals please" to make it sound like its ok. It really upsets me, because your post does nothing but spread false lies.

I hope that you realize the mistake that you make. Sadly, I know that there will be people out there who will agree with you, but I hope that there will not be.

Just my two cents worth...


Tzvika







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Twotterwrench
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:53 pm

Tbar - that is the ONLY intelligent post I have seen on this thread. Thank you for taking the time. wow...
 
cfalk
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 4:04 pm

From my understanding of the U.S. walk-out as I heard it on the BBC, it was because the agenda seems to have been "loaded". This was not a conference where all issues of racism could be raised, but only those which may result in U.S. or Israel being villainized, and thus opening the way to the ridiculous idea of reparations. Like I said before, African nations have no right to criticise anyone over slavery, since slavery has been a part of African culture since before the Europeans came to the continent, and continues to this day, despite being banned everywhere else.

Of course, no money can be made with this arguement, so it is quickly squelshed.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 4:12 pm

Thanks, Tzvika, for the time + effort you invested to "answer" to this BS of "Carioca canuck". But out of BS you cannot make gold; this guy is full of hatred, he lies as ha breathes and he gloats as soon as a bomb explodes somewhere in Israel.

And he is so stupid: he complains that the Palestinians have "separate ID cards and number plates". Since when did the Palestinians dream to have Israeli documents?... To compare this with the Star of David German Jews had to bear is not ignorance, it is criminal. The Palestinians are so well identifiable when walking in the streets of Israeli cities that they can freely carry bombs on themselves everywhere without being picked out before they explode...

Cfalk, the Americans pulled out because this "conference against racism" has become the world conference FOR anti-semitism. But I believe that this situation doesn't shock nor disturb you (as well as the European nations...)
 
Guest

RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 4:17 pm

Everybody should ask for the deletion of carioca canuck's hatred BS.

 
cfalk
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 5:10 pm

Toda,

the Americans pulled out because this "conference against racism" has become the world conference FOR anti-semitism. But I believe that this situation doesn't shock nor disturb you (as well as the European nations...)

That was part of the reason, not the entire reason. The whole world does not revolve around Israel. And yes, it does disturb me, but you should not try to paint the world black and white. Just because I believe that the Palestinians have been the subject of abuse does not mean that I don't believe that the Jewish Zionist dream should be realized (within the borders of Israel, of course).

Israel (and the Jewish people in general) have long harbored an "us vs. everyone else" mentality, where those who are not entirely for them are therefore against them. Looking at history, such an attitude is understandable given the trials and tribulations endured by Jews over the past 2000 years, but it is hardly an attitude that will make many friends. Israel should understand this. Whether they choose to change as a result of this understanding or not is an entirely different and more complicated question. But the understanding should be there.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 8:08 pm

"us vs. everyone else mentality"

And what is happening in Durban right now? Are you too blind to see it, or don't you want too see?

The worst accusations are violently thrown at Israel. It is actually a continuation of what was current throughout the Jewish history: false accusations causing pogroms and hatred over centuries, culminating in the Holocaust. False accusation of of having "killed God", false accusations of drinking Christian blood and making Passover matsot with it, false accusations of killing Christian children, false accusations of spreading illnesses, false accusations of governing the world and so on and so on...
And the Palestinian Authority does the same work: Israel is accused of poisoning water, of throwing poisoned sweeties to kill Palestinian children, of injecting AIDS to Palestinian babies, of using chemical bombs and depleted uranium etc...

In that so-called anti-racism conference, nobody has spoken about the Taliban terror in Afghanistan, or about the "honor" crimes women are victims in Pakistan and other countries, or about war crimes commited in Yugoslavia, or about the massive bombings of civilians in Chechnya (Russians don't even know what "smart bombs" are...), or about the inferior status of women in Saudi Arabia, or about the unbearable situation of Christians in Sudan, or about the frightening situations on the African continent, or about so many other places were mass executions are REALLY committed and basic human rights denied.
No. Only one subject was "treated". Only one country was condemned, in the most violent and biased way possible. And of course, the exactions the Palestinians have commited against the civil population in Israel are not a subject neither; bombings in discos, busses, malls and restaurants are not to be condemned as long as there are only Jewish victims.

Yesterday I've heard on a French news radio (France-Info) a so-called specialist on international relations. He stupidly explained the same point of view you exposed in your last post: """Israel shouldn't always come with the memory (the haunting) of the Holocaust when it is subject to critisism; Israel should consider itself now as a normal State, and behave like that. It has now to accept to be treated like any other country."""

Are you at least able to see the problem in this beautiful speech?
The problem is precisely that Israel is NOT TREATED LIKE ANY OTHER NATION.
And that's racism, or, to be more specific, anti-Zionism, which means anti-semitism (cf Martin Luther King Jr's so brilliant speech).

"The whole world does not revolve around Israel"
And what is the whole world doing for instance now, in Durban?!... It does it, and with an extraordinary unity in hatred.

"...hardly an attitude that will make many friends"
this kind of reasoning sounds anti-semitic in itself, putting the blame for anti-semitism on the Jews themselves. It's classical. And it's really stupid; it's the same kind of, in this context self-destructive, reflexions that were made by the Israeli left regarding the relations with the Arabs: "if only we (ie the Israeli) change OUR attitude towards the Palestinians and the whole Arab world, and we give them what they want, then their attitude towards us will also change, they will accept us and there will be peace"...I don't see this happening...
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 8:28 pm

Russians do know what "smart weapons" are, they are a little too expensive for them to throw them at some Chechen rebels.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
cfalk
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 8:39 pm

Toda,

The stretch that you take my words to is enough to make the most fanatic of bungie-jumpers wet themselves with envy.

I made my stand quite clear in earlier posts:

1) That this U.N. conference is a farce;
2) That I agreed that the U.S. and any other country with a proper sense of right and wrong should boycot the conference;
3) That I agree with the concept of Zionism, insofar that it calls for the creation of an independant state of Israel and the right for it to exist and defend itself;
4) That I understand historically why the Jewish people have developed a "Fortress Mentality";
5) In other posts, I have also denounced the terrorist tactics used by the Palestinian extremists, and support Israel's efforts to wipe out the masterminds of these terror tactics.

At the same time I have condemned:
a) Israel's insistance on maintaining and expanding Israeli settlements on occupied land, which are the prime magnet for violence;
b) That Israel must maintain the rule of law when going after terrorists;
c) That the disadvantage of a "Fortress Mentality" serves to further alienate Israel from the rest of the world, feeding the cycle of intolerance and violence;
d) That the Palestinians themselves also have a right to a state of their own.

Since I take a more balanced view (somewhat weighted towards Israel), but DARE to criticize Israel on certain points, you take that to mean that I am anti-semite, anti-zionist, stupid, self-destructive, blind, and hypocritical.

You are living evidence of the "Fortress Mentality" at work. Such venomous attacks are hardly the stuff which will bring you converts.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 10:23 pm

So, I'm very happy to read your points 1 to 5 and a to d.

With your views put like that, I have to retract the words I used when speaking to you; but really, all you said in your former posts, or at least the way you said it, sounded quite different. It appears it was misleading to me.
BTW, I hope you've read my last post carefully and that you realise that Israel is not treated like any other State...

The rule of law in a state of war is a complicated issue, on which I disagree with your point, although on a theoretical perspective I can understand it.

 
cfalk
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Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 10:44 pm

The rule of law is what separates the civilized world and anarchy. The suicide bombers certainly are at one end of that spectrum. But as last I heard, there has been no declaration of war made against the Palestinians, approved according to the law by the Israeli legislature. Such a declaration, or a corresponding state of emergency (also legally defined), may, according to the laws of the country, allow certain civil rights to be curtailed for the duration of the crisis. Outside of these situations, I feel that the lack of due process says something like "We will follow the law unless it is inconvenient". I.e., tending towards anarchy.

As far as Israel not being treated as any other state - that's true enough. But I question whether they really WANT to be treated like any other state (I don't have a firm opinion on this, but I have my doubts).

Anyway, my ideas may have came out peacemeal before, granted.

Cheers,

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Tue Sep 04, 2001 10:54 pm

They want to be, of course. That's very important in their eyes, believe me!
It is also natural; who would be willing to be discriminated?
 
timmay
Posts: 121
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Wed Sep 05, 2001 12:14 am

A bit old (31.8) but relevant, Mad Bob of Zimbabwe has climbed on the Jew bashing bandwagon as well. Is this in some secret text book for losers ?

At a conference not even 800 miles away from Harare the silence on this blatant racism is deafening especially from neigbouring countries......

"Mugabe slams Jews in Zim"

Harare - President Robert Mugabe has accused Jews of trying to shut down businesses in Zimbabwe and said it would be "a good thing" if white industrialists left, the state-controlled press reported on Saturday.

"Jews in South Africa, working in cahoots with their colleagues here, want our textile and clothing factories to close down.

"They want Zimbabwe and Bulawayo to remain with warehouses to create business for South African firms," he said.

Mugabe was speaking on Friday at a textile company, owned by a prominent Jewish family in the western city of Bulawayo.

It went into liquidation earlier this year and the company attempted to relocate to neighbouring Botswana because of harsh business conditions in Zimbabwe.

However, the move was stopped about three months ago when a band of so-called war veterans invaded the factory and assaulted directors at a board meeting.

Mugabe drew accusations of anti-Semitism in 1992 when he declared that white farmers were "hard-hearted, you would think they were Jews". He refused to apologise.

Mugabe on Friday urged workers at the factory to monitor companies and to inform the government of their activities.

"We want you to be inspectors," he said. "Listen to all factory rumours, open your eyes and tell us which companies are closing. Tell us in good time.

"Yes, there are hardships, but if they (whites) leave, it's a good thing, because we will take over the companies."

In an impromptu speech in the city centre, he urged people to back his bid to seize white-owned land and declared: "To those of you who support whites, we say down with you."

About 400 businesses closed down in Zimbabwe in the first six months of the year, according to official statistics, amid escalating economic chaos. - Sapa



 
us330
Posts: 3421
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Wed Sep 05, 2001 12:16 am

I completely agree with the UN conference being a farce, and Twotterwrench summed it up well when he said that it is okay to be racist as long as it is against Jews and Americans.
A side note: the Arabs are doing even more brain washing by handing out posters of jews with long noses and bloody fangs.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Wed Sep 05, 2001 12:30 am

Mugabe has guided his country from what was the most prosperous country in sub-saharan Africa apart from South Africa, and made a huge mess of it, in spite of fertile land and lots of resources. Now he's come up with populist drivel blaming outside influences for his mess. And the white business and farm owners who are practically the only productive part of Zimbabwan society? Just steal it. The problem with that tactic is that it only works once.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
wn700driver
Posts: 1475
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 10:55 pm

RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Wed Sep 05, 2001 2:05 am

To go back to what I believe was the original point of this thread, I have to agree w/ T-bar on this one. Castro is in no position to ask Anything of the USA.

Though, I think it would serve the interests of both nations if the 40+yr old embargo against Cuba was lifted. It is a sad day for a nation when Tijuana can be favourably compared to it's Capitol. Peace all.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
tbar220
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Wed Sep 05, 2001 3:04 am

Its good to see we can agree on something WN700

 Smile Tzvika  Smile
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tbar220
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RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Wed Sep 05, 2001 3:10 am

Here's two screwy things in my opinion, this is from the Associated Press

``The fact of the matter is there is no resolution yet,'' Jackson said on CBS' ``The Early Show'' on Tuesday. ``We have worked diligently to raise the human rights agenda, to fight the racism and the intolerance, and the U.S. should be engaged in that process and it chose to disengage.''

I really hate that man. They haven't done squat to engage any problems with racism and intolerance around the world. The following line just proves that.

Israel was the only country mentioned specifically in the document, which accused it of ``practices of racial discrimination.''

Some charter that they're coming up with to combat racism and intolerance. So is this a racism conference, or a anti-Israel conference? I think we all know, whether we support Israel or not.

This stupid conference is the biggest waste of time.
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Guest

RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Wed Sep 05, 2001 3:54 am

That the Durban conference has remained silent about the activities of Bob Mugabe, Fidel Castro and Yasser Arafat -- all three of whom have based their careers on stirring up resentment of outsiders instead of using the power they have to create something of lasting value -- is evidence of just what a sham it all is.

Mugabe's 'war veterans' aren't going to be too useful once Zimbabwe's home-grown food supply has run out, along with the foreign currency needed to buy imported food.

In fact, when the famine hits, some of those 'war veterans' might have a change of heart and decide that it's the president who should be sent packing.

 
Guest

RE: U.N. Racism Conference

Thu Sep 06, 2001 4:55 am

Just heard on the radio, the 16 nation member European Union will walk on out on Durban should harsh Anti-Semitic language be used in the conference's final resolution.

A real embarrasment for Israel? sure whatever....

TNNH

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