chris28_17
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 4:26 am

Concentration Camps?

Mon Sep 17, 2001 6:38 am

OKay! before everyone goes ape-nuts on me, hear me out. This is to be a moral debate focusing on whether or not "the end justifies the means" I am not promoting concentration camps, but i am posing the question and am interested in your response. Please read all i have to say before giving your opinion.

We know that back in WWII after pearl harbor, all american japaneese people were hearded up and put in concentration camps. Today we call that racist, back then it was in the name of saftey. Why? for two reasons. The first was the saftey of law-abiding japaneese people who may have been subject to racist attacks by angry americans. Second, simply to protect america from attacks from within our borders from rouge japaneese spies or terrorists.

Should we consider doing this with middle-eastern muslims living in america today? or are we too politically correct?

Lets look at some reasons. First of all, Afghanastan has vowed revenge on any country that aids the US including the US. Now how can they follow through without a substantial military?? the answer? just what we saw on tuesday, terrorist attacks from within.

Now, We know that there are actually a few large terrorist factions of Bin Laden currently residing in the US. There is ONLY one way to prevent these people from hurting us, and thats to find them!!!! but how do we do that?

These arent torture camps, keep that in mind, these people will be treated kindly. After the war is over, of course the people are let go back to thier lives, perhaps with compensation from the government for any mental harm. Actually its pretty much "racial profiling" on a grand scale. By rounding up all the Arabs and middle-eastern people we are pretty much assured of finding the majority of terrorists living in the US.

But yes, this is rather inhumane, there is no question. But if we dont do something like this (which is inhumane, as i stated) we are risking more american lives.

-----

A seperate point. Does anyone remember when russia tried to wipe out afghanastan? they got thier asses kicked, those woosie little afgans killed over 100,000 soviets, thats double what we lost in vietnam. These people are no push-over. There are afghan terrorists living all over, if we go bomb their country, THERE WILL BE AMERICAN LIVES LOST. It may be a small price to pay (concentration camps) for freedom and preservation of our lives.

Once again, im not saying the end justifies the means here, but its worth thinking about..


CHRIS
 
Guest

RE: Concentration Camps?

Mon Sep 17, 2001 7:05 am

OKay! before everyone goes ape-nuts on me

Bullshit.


Why? for two reasons. The first was the saftey of law-abiding japaneese people who may have been subject to racist attacks by angry americans. Second, simply to protect america from attacks from within our borders from rouge japaneese spies or terrorists.

Yeah right.  Yeah sure The primary reason was for their safety. Hey, I have bridge in Brooklyn for sale. Wanna buy it?


These arent torture camps, keep that in mind, these people will be treated kindly. After the war is over, of course the people are let go back to thier lives, perhaps with compensation from the government for any mental harm. Actually its pretty much "racial profiling" on a grand scale. By rounding up all the Arabs and middle-eastern people we are pretty much assured of finding the majority of terrorists living in the US.

Why be politically correct on your point of view? Why concentration camp, you're just wasting money? Why not just drag 'em out in the streets and kill all of 'em--You know...the Final Solution.

 Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure

What do you do to mixed-race people? Aren't they worse because they bastardized the white race? Right Chris?

 Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure
 
Guest

RE: Concentration Camps?

Mon Sep 17, 2001 7:06 am

If we do that to Muslim or Arab Americans, the USA will cease to be the land of the free. The terrorists would then have achieved their goal of destroying the very fabric of our nation. Do you want them to win this conflict? If we put our own citizens in concentration camps, would America, the home of democracy, still exist?

Your hare-brained plan would not save any lives, just as the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII saved no lives. It would, however, end America's role as the world's MORAL superpower. You would undoubtedly forever destroy the very democratic notions this country is based on.

These people are American citizens, just like you and I are. If we put them in concentration camps, we would be perpetrating one of the largest MORAL crimes in our nation's history. After all, all American citizens have been created equal!

Nations all around the world look up to the US as a role model when it comes to human rights. If we do what you are suggesting, we would lose the support of EVERY SINGLE ally in the world (and perhaps every single individual as well). We would no longer be the world's symbol of freedom and democracy. Are you sure you would want to destroy America just to get a sense of extra security?

We can make Americans feel safer by increasing security, but I'm shocked any "civilized" human being would suggest something so barbarious, so fundamentally un-American.
 
OO-AOG
Posts: 1395
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 1:24 am

RE: Concentration Camps?

Mon Sep 17, 2001 7:15 am

Nations all around the world look up to the US as a role model when it comes to human rights

Excuse me?! And what about your death penalty?
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
toady
Posts: 700
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2001 2:36 am

RE: Concentration Camps?

Mon Sep 17, 2001 7:21 am

And the treatment of the Native Americans?
 
Guest

RE: Concentration Camps?

Mon Sep 17, 2001 7:24 am

OO-AOG,

Yes, in some countries, the death penalty is considered a human right violation, just as many Americans would consider some European press laws a violation of the right to free speech.

But that isn't the point here. The fact is that America's democratic system is admired around the world. There is no such thing as a perfect democracy... but America is about as good as it gets.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Concentration Camps?

Mon Sep 17, 2001 7:26 am

NO!!! If we repeat such a shameful episode in our history, then we haven't learned a damn thing. Don't let your blown-out-of-proportion racial fears get the best of you.
 
Guest

RE: Concentration Camps?

Mon Sep 17, 2001 7:31 am

NO!!! If we repeat such a shameful episode in our history, then we haven't learned a damn thing.

Right on.

That's was the thought that I was going to convey, but my emotions got a hold of me. I apologize for the gut reaction on my part. Whew! I feel better now.  Smile


Thanks, Alpha1
 
OO-AOG
Posts: 1395
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 1:24 am

RE: Concentration Camps?

Mon Sep 17, 2001 8:59 am

PHX-LJU

I don't want to make an issue here but:

Death penalty IS a human right violation whatever the country is.
Feel free to follow the below link if you wanna know what Amnesty International has to say on the subject

http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/COUNTRIES/USA?OpenView&expandall

So for the model, USA would not be my first choice.
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
milldoh
Posts: 482
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2001 11:59 pm

RE: Concentration Camps?

Mon Sep 17, 2001 9:51 am

OO-AOG: First of all, this isn't about the death penalty. Second, there are problems with all foms of government. I for one am against the death penalty, but for other reasons. If you say "that country is bad / not as good as others / despicable" because of one aspect of its government, you need to learn more than a bit about government.

As for the concentration camps, I too am against them. While it may prevent more attacks from within, it would come at the cost of our freedom - the right the terrorists themselves are trying to take from us.
 
redngold
Posts: 6673
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: Concentration Camps?

Mon Sep 17, 2001 9:55 am

Oh, God, PLEASE NO CONCENTRATION CAMPS!

redngold
Up, up and away!
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Concentration Camps?

Mon Sep 17, 2001 10:11 am

NO!!! The reasons why this is an extremely bad idea were well explained by other members. I would like to add that I am not entirely sure this kind of policy would ensure America's safety.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Concentration Camps?

Mon Sep 17, 2001 10:16 am

OO-AOG, right now we couldn't give a flying F**k if the USA would be your first choice or not, or if you don't like the death penalty, so clam up.
 
Guest

RE: Concentration Camps?

Mon Sep 17, 2001 10:18 am

I can't beleive that such a topic comes up, it's downright disgusting.

Why? for two reasons. The first was the saftey of law-abiding japaneese people who may have been subject to racist attacks by angry americans

Excuse me? please refrain from posting such B.S.
 
chris28_17
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 4:26 am

RE: Concentration Camps?

Mon Sep 17, 2001 10:23 am

sheessh. okay... im totally playing devils advocate with this one... trying to push your buttons, make you guys THINK  Big thumbs up read objectively, please....

If we do what you are suggesting,...

i was not making a suggestion!! i made that clear!! i will, however, make my suggestion at the end of this post.....

Your hare-brained plan would not save any lives, just as the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII saved no lives.

wheres your proof that it didnt save any lives? it didnt cost any!

It would, however, end America's role as the world's MORAL superpower. You would undoubtedly forever destroy the very democratic notions this country is based on

Now wait a second. You have no proof whatsoever for that statement. Truth is, going into WWII the USA's military was ranked at 19th in the world!! Blacks and whites used different drinking fountains, etc... during WWII like i mentioned, they used camps, since then we are now the #1 military super-power, and a racial melting pot of the world..... the two have no correlation, im just stating those facts to dismiss your bogus prophecy  Smile

Some people dont seem to understand, these guys that did this to us last tuesday were everyday-american citizens. They had wives, and children who went to public schools and neighbors who said "they were such nice people!" Im sorry, but no ordinary person can differentiate between a skilled terrorist and an honest american citizen. That bothers me. When we go bomb their homeland, they are gonna kill more people from right here in america. Sealing our borders wont help, they're already here, they have the money, the training, and whats worse, is the hatred that will drive them to further terrorism against the US.

This is a war like no other we have ever experienced. We are not fighting against a state or country. We are fighting groups of individuals who hide in the shadows, they have no morals. The only way to eliminate this enemy, is dig them out of their shadows.

Thier biggest advantage is that we go by the rules, and morals, and they dont have to.

--------------

what everyone is waiting for:

my suggestion!

There is a HUGE difference between discrimination and "racial profiling". I honestly think that concentration camps during WWII was useless. We were fighting japaneese military in JAPAN... the difference here is that we are fighting a war against someone who has large powerful hidden factions right here in America.

I believe that it is in our best interests to investigate all citizens who have any ties whatsoever in any fashion to the middle east. All immigrants legal or illegal. because this is a monumental task, it is only logical to start with Arabic and muslim people. Im sorry if you think thats racist, if you have half a brain you'll realize its not. Most arab-americans wont even notice a difference, if they have lived in america thier entire life, they wont even recieve a phone call.

Folks, you gotta understand, the only way for them to fight us in a war, is NOT attack our military, but to attack our innocent civilians from within. Their strategy is to blend in, to appear like a normal citizen. Armed with this information, how would you neutralize this threat??


CHRIS
 
OO-AOG
Posts: 1395
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 1:24 am

RE: Concentration Camps?

Mon Sep 17, 2001 10:23 am

Alpha1

Exactly you see my point, you dont give a F**K of what we think, that's all your problem. Big grin

Milldoh

What PHX-LJU wrote was not correct and I was just underlining it, that's it..
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
Dasa
Posts: 730
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2001 9:25 am

RE: Concentration Camps?

Mon Sep 17, 2001 7:15 pm

Calm down people.
 
Guest

RE: Concentration Camps?

Mon Sep 17, 2001 7:35 pm

Should we consider doing this with middle-eastern muslims living in america today?

I find this statement offensive. Do you understand the term "over reaction"?





VH-ADG
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Concentration Camps?

Mon Sep 17, 2001 8:33 pm

Well, let's even assume that the government would disregard its own constitution and carry out such a plan, how would you implement it? How do you go about measuring someone's Middle-Eastern-ness? What would you use, looks, religion, dress? Who would qualify as being Middle-Eastern? What about second, third generations? Would they be half an Arab, or perhaps a quarter? Do they then go to a lower security concentration camp?

Even disregarding the racially despicable nature of this plan, this idea is extremely impractical at best. Our government is sworn to protect its citizens, not just White citizens, but ALL citizens.
 
RealHigh
Posts: 924
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2000 7:09 am

RE: Concentration Camps?

Tue Sep 18, 2001 12:06 am

Let's all pretend that Chris28_17 never opened his mouth. He has outlined his self as the most retarded member here in the forums. I am Swedish & Palestinian. What if we were at war with Sweden also? Would I be bounced back between Swedish & Palestinian concentration camps?  Confused
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: Concentration Camps?

Tue Sep 18, 2001 12:09 am

Hey RealHigh, since you have posted, give me an email. I have been trying to contact you forever, but I cant because you dont' have your email public. Send me an email so it will stay private.
NO URLS in signature
 
RealHigh
Posts: 924
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2000 7:09 am

RE: Concentration Camps?

Tue Sep 18, 2001 12:29 am

Tbar220, I send you an e-mail.

Let me tell you now, No flirting!  Smile
 
chris28_17
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 4:26 am

RE: Concentration Camps?

Tue Sep 18, 2001 12:34 am

. He (chris) has outlined his self as the most retarded member here in the forums.

wow, your vote of confidence is noted and appreciated... you quite obviously did not read everything i had to say in my posts as i pleaded with the audience to do. I never at any point suggested we actually make concentration camps. The point was a very extreme example of why it may be good to consider a small form of "racial profiling" which about 98% of you people on this forum have absolutely no earthy idea what that term truly means.


I find this statement offensive. Do you understand the term "over reaction"?


once again, here is another person who did not read my entire posts.

RealHigh was probably right, i "never should have opened my mouth". You guy's brains are so closed it was pointless for me to try and get them to think objectively.

i apologize, please remind me never again to post things that are intellectually challenging...



CHRIS
 
RealHigh
Posts: 924
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2000 7:09 am

RE: Concentration Camps?

Tue Sep 18, 2001 12:45 am

Concentration Camps?

Intellectually challenging?

Do think this is some sort of joke?

Have you ever meet a person who survived a concentration camp?
Have you met a Jewish holocaust survivor or Japanese internment camp survivor?

Get real dude!
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: Concentration Camps?

Tue Sep 18, 2001 12:54 am

Check your mail realhigh.
NO URLS in signature
 
Ikarus
Posts: 3391
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:18 pm

RE: Concentration Camps?

Tue Sep 18, 2001 1:32 am

Chris28_17:
Watch the movie "Under Siege" - it is about exactly the thing you describe.

But let's just take this (ridiculous, inhumane, bollocks, outraging, I can't think of enough swearwords to say how vile it is) idea of yours and take it to the extreme:

As Arab fundamentalists have just killed 5,000 people, the entire Muslim population is rounded up and imprisoned (or shipped to the Antarctic). Apart from the loss of GNP and many public services, the impact is mostly moral: Suddenly Americans realize that any minority grou could become a target.

As kids of parents with guns have killed hundreds of other kids over the past decades, all parents with guns, and eventually every armed American, is also locked up or shipped away - that is not racial profiling, but profiling of a possible threat.

As people sick with AIDS have killed thousands and tens of thousands of Americans by not using protective measures, every one is subjected to an obligatory AIDS test. All those with AIDS are immediately deported.

As car-driving people have killed numerous people with their cars, driving carelessly, all car-driving Americans are immediately put under house arrest.





Face it: There are hundreds of thousands of deaths every year. If you round up every group that had anything to do with those deaths, you end up deporting all of the American nation. If you want to get the 50 or so terrorists that might still be hiding within your borders, locking up the millions of Americans of Arab descent is insane. Even racial profiling itself is a wrong idea. It is just a fancy term for "allowing prejudiced agents to do their work in a prejudiced fashion" - there is no evidence whatsoever that it might ever save a single life. Mathematically, if you compare the number of terrorists with the number of peaceful Arab-Americans, it is virtually certain not to work.
 
9A-CRO
Crew
Posts: 1529
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2000 3:53 pm

RE: Concentration Camps?

Tue Sep 18, 2001 1:39 am

do you know that one german muslim (I mean real German) was arrested while preparing for suicide terrorist attack against Israel - so if arab terrorist could not recruit arabs they will turn to white muslims (which you do not even have to know they are muslims) anyway, even without that threat concantration camps are a vary, very bad idea
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6409
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Death Penalty?

Tue Sep 18, 2001 3:23 am

This concentration camp issue made some Europeans pick Americans in the nose with death penalty or capital punishment (CP). Some US states exercise CP, some don't. Some Eruropean nations do, some don't. EU members can't, or they can't be a member.

But CP is not something which you refrain from once and forever. You refrain from it when it's not needed, and you reinvent it when needed. My country for instance turned down CP a hundred years ago, and introduced it retrospectively again in 1945. Many other - if not all - Eroropean countries did the same. We happened to have a few native informers, which had cost the lives of many good Danish partisans, and there was no way we could stand up to thinking of having them around.

And don't tell me that the mysterious heavy death toll among captured Rote Arme Fraktion terrorists 25 years ago was pure accidental. I'm not blaming the Germans, just telling the way politics work when under pressure.

Right now the situation is that should the main brain behind the WTC tragedy happen to be caught here, then our law forbids us to transfer him to any country - for instance the USA - where CP may be exercised. During these days - or exactly today - we are working on changing that - RETROSPECTIVELY! Yep.

Folks, that's how it is. Please don't polish your halo just because your country doesn't allow - or for the moment doesn't allow - CP.

I really do hope that my country will never have to reinvent CP again. But my halo in this respect evaporated many years ago. Sometimes it is just a little more practical to spread some ashes over the sea than having a martyr rottening in prison.

Best regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
chris28_17
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 4:26 am

RE: Concentration Camps?

Tue Sep 18, 2001 3:52 am

REALHIGH! you must be very high becuase you STILL havent read my previous posts beyond skimming them..

Have you ever meet a person who survived a concentration camp?

Hell yes i have! japaneese AND jewish... concentration camps are not all like hitlers camp.

please, PLEASE read my first two posts in this topic before responding again, i NEVER said we should have these camps, my object of this was NOT to push my views (belive it or not) but go read Ikarus's post, he has done the best job responding to this topic without a personal attack against me (well, not as much of one).... its something i just wanted to get people's intellegent opinions on, of which your posts are NOT.

With all due respect, i know your the only girl in this forum and you can get away with anything, but i wont sit by and let you read only that which you want to read and hear only what you want to hear, without a due response.



CHRIS <---- loves everyone
 
VirginLover
Posts: 918
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 8:46 am

RE: Concentration Camps?

Tue Sep 18, 2001 6:24 am

Only girl? Ahem....  Smile There's so much anger, so much blinding rage, it's only natural to think of this idea. Hell, I admit that I thought of it myself. It's not the right answer, I agree, it's hard to think of logical solutions. There's enough tension in the world, lets not add this forum to the list.
 
Guest

RE: Concentration Camps?

Tue Sep 18, 2001 7:15 am

Great points, Ikarus!
 
Guest

RE: Concentration Camps?

Tue Sep 18, 2001 7:20 am

Chris, its a bad idea, because its against what our country stands for and truthfully won't prevent attacks. It will only make our country more divisive than it already is.

However, we do need to go into these Arab and Muslim neighborhoods and legally and with the assistance of these community's leaders, find the bad guys who are hiding out among the law abiding citizens.

Now, that I am for.

rgds
TNNH
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Concentration Camps?

Wed Sep 19, 2001 9:55 am

Introducing concentration camps (shudder!) would have one certain consequence: It would drive a good number of originally law-abiding and patriotic americans right into the arms of any terrorist movement. As a side note: You´d have to apply some thinking to how far this would have to go. Children of "arabs"? What with those where only one parent was "arab"? What with one Grandparent?

This is exactly how the nazis "separated" the jews...


Another thing: It´s not really the actual kind of democracy or the real state of human rights in the US (both don´t compare too favourably to other western democracies right now) which is an inspiration to other people outside america.

It is the commitment of the american people to these ideals! And the willingness to help others to achieve improvement there! (In combination with the power to survive meddling in other people´s affairs.)

These are the real sources of strength in the USA.


And this is what would be damaged severely by prosecuting people for nothing else than their ethnicity.

The real reasons for terrorism lie deeper. And there is no cheap way around addressing them.
 
blink182
Posts: 5271
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 1999 3:09 am

RE: Concentration Camps?

Wed Sep 19, 2001 10:50 am

No, because there are probably wayyyyyyyyy more innocent than guilty.
Now, if it is factual that they have proven someone guilty, there is a dorm called jail. Personally, I don't think getting everybody and putting them in a concentration camp is a good idea.
rgds,
blink182
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...

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