milldoh
Posts: 482
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2001 11:59 pm

Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 12:03 am

what's up with this guys? why is everyone backing out of military support? it's a war against terrorism. so much for article 5...

Following the pattern of Norway, Germany has also declined to participate in any direct military action launched by North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) to combat terrorism.

---------

Italian Defense Minister Antonio Martino on Sunday said Italian troops would not take part in any US retaliation after the terror attacks and that use of the term "war" was inappropriate.

"The term 'war' is inappropriate. It is not a conflict between states and Italian troops will not go anywhere," Martino told the RAI television station.

"I feel I am in a position to categorically exclude calling on the army," he said.

The defence minister warned that "nobody had better strike randomly," adding that 100,000 Italian soldiers were involved in various peacekeeping missions abroad.

 
go canada!
Posts: 2886
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 12:10 am

just as the usa and britain expected, european countires wont fully back actions because most of them are pro-arab sympthasies who while dont hate america and are anrgy at the loss of life, would rather send a bunch of roses to bin laden saying please talk, yets not fight.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Scotty
Posts: 1846
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 1999 10:51 pm

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 12:13 am

Here's a good idea. The BBC News website is currently reporting that

"President George W Bush may lift the ban on US involvement in assassinations overseas as the US targets those behind the attacks on New York and Washington"

This is good news. Why should innocent people anywhere suffer because of the head cases? The US and its allies should be able to go in and strike directly at the individuals who run the show, right up to top tinpot dictator level. Whats the point of nuking the whole Mid East when you still cant get the guys who matter. This needs a rapier, not a broadsword.

Go for it George, and send in the Delta Force and the SAS.

Scotty

Alba gu brath
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 12:14 am

Go Canada ....

Like some Americans, you are turning this terrorist act into a war against Americans and Arabs. That is VERY dangerous. And it's wrong.
The ideal would be to catch the terrorists and put them in jail, but it's almost sure that a war will take place. Who knows where it will end ?

The "bunch of roses" was displaced. You should not write such bullshits.
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 5:16 am

Go Canada, as a historian, I thought you would have had a more informed position on this topic.
 
ryu2
Posts: 1545
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:18 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 5:36 am

Don't forget that Germany has a provision in its constitution (post WW2) that bars involvement offensive military actions abroad -- similar to Japan's consitution.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6409
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 6:08 am

When that fantastic concensus against terrorism was demonstrated last week, live on TV, then I was wondering - Gosch, will that last two weeks?

It didn't last one week.
Germany, Italy, Norway...
Let's begin from north.

Norway is in a turmoil following its recent parliamental elections. In addition, over the week-end a Scottish terror scientist pointed out Norway as the number one passive supporter of world wide terrorism. With the rest of Scandinavia as close runner ups.

Germany is for historical reasons a special case, and will be so for the next one hundred years.

Italy is just unbelieveable. Unexplainable. Has the Mafia too much to lose?

But dear US of A, it won't stop here. In a few weeks it will be business as usual and you will find yourself very much alone again. Don't expect Sweden, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France etc. stand firm deep into October.

That said, I don't expect that physical assistance will be very much needed or even appreciated. They can easily get in the way. But if only it can be avoided that you get virtual "knives in your back" from what was supposed to be real friends on 11th and 12th September, then we have come a long way.

And dear US of A, when it is all over, have a close look at your own internal passive terror support - IRA, ETA and what other three letter acronyms which weren't trademarked by IBM.

Best regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
go canada!
Posts: 2886
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 6:12 am

Sebolino-im sorry i didnt state I was anti-arab, i am not,t hat is why germany and others wont back action because they dont agree with innocents dying.

i do not either, however this is a war, those terrorists had no regard for humna life and the usa/uk and allies houldnt have regard for life of islamic crackpots who use their faith to butcher, maim and murder.
perhaps a fuller undertsanding is required?

hepkat-i am well informed, i have studied arab-israeli conflicts and the response of europe, that i why i made the comment that germany and italy will get cold fett, just the same as the gulf war.

it is correct that most european countries would be ahppy if they could negotiate with bin laden, bring him to court and think thats the end of it.they would much rather have peace, in fact some european ministers are stressign the need for dimpolmatic talks.

one terrorist wont mean the end of this.

germany can change that constituion and it did a few months back with macedonia, its government and parliament changed the laws so that german troops could be on forgein soil, therefore it has been changed.

this is not a war between america and the arabs but a war against the free, just democracies of the world aginst terrorists, states harbouring terrorists and rouge states seeking to produce weapons of mass destruction.

attacks on arab americans have no place in society.

neither does bin laden, jihad, hamas, hezzbollah, the ira, eta and sadamm hussien.

all must die otherwise more innocent civilians will die.

do you want another wtc bombing?

what about the innocents who died last week? did the terrorists stick to international law and send dimplomats? of course not.

failure to attack now leaves the world in the same situation before World war two and if we dotn act now, more innocent lives will be lost.

next time it could be your child, your mother, your father, your borther, your sister or your spouse.






It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 6:56 am

Go Canada, an eye for an eye will make the whole world blind (M. Ghandi). The answer to this problem does not lie in exterminating terrorist groups and the countries that support them. Every action will cause a reaction, as history has clearly shown us. After you exterminate this batch of terrorist, a new one will automatically step up to take its place, filled with more hatred, more resolve and less regard for life.

The only solution to this tragedy is to nip the problem in the bud. Eliminate that which is causing the conflict. Solve the Israel-Palestine problem (among others), to each side's satisfaction. As long as the Arabs feel oppressed, they will continue to lash out.

This is why so many European countries are opting out of a military retaliation. First of all, there is no target, and secondly, a military strike on our part will only be followed by a terrorist strike on theirs.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 7:00 am

With Italy's, well, less-than-stellar record in warfare, I don't want them participating militarily.  Big grin
 
Guest

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 7:02 am

Sebolino,

Just so you know for future flamings, the word "bullshit" is ALWAYS singular.

As in "You should not write such bullshit" NOT "You should not write such bullshits."

TNNH

This is why Italy is well.....Italy.... and the US is well.... the leader of the free world.
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 7:05 am

Great to learn.
 
Guest

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 7:20 am

Swedish young men and women are not going to die for America!
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 7:26 am

AH727, but you'd be begging for young American men and women to die for your country if, say the Russians came calling, right? Hypocrite.
 
Guest

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 7:39 am

Now the dissing is on again.

The fact is that sweden´s so called neutrality is the hypocrite,we have all through the years been called neutral,but that is pure bullshit.

How come we have such a distinguised military industry? Due to the support of the USA.

I am not critizing that we should help America out with hunting down the people responsible for the hijacks.

My point is that we in Sweden shall not send support in terms of Military Material.

If we could help you out with intelligence and tracking of the ones responsible it´s allright,
but not send enlisted men and women to wherever the Us goverment finds it convenient.

It wouldn´t surprise me if we did because of our goverment likes to please the US governement.

So as most of the world´s Babylonian goverments.

 
Bryan Becker
Posts: 327
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2001 12:38 pm

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 7:42 am

i know its bull shit,maybe all the need is for some dumb ass terrorist to attack there country and then they will change there minds,its crap its terrorism,come on it all over the world and it needs to be stoped,
 
LN-OJB
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 6:13 am

Do We See The Same World?

Tue Sep 18, 2001 7:42 am

As long as the US administration so clearly demonstrates the lack of historical knowledge, we can´t just let this warfare get out of control.

President Bush says: "Wanted, dead or alive!", like we were riding around in the old wild West. He has also stated: "this is a new kind of evil".

It´s not! It is a new scale for terrorist activity, and we should all strive to overcome terrorism. But we won´t get that far, unless we are willing to speak and act against the growing gap between the rich and the poor in this world. This is a worldwide problem, and also a problem inside most countries.

Evil is inside every one of us. Warfare is the most dangerous way to let evil get out of control. The US´leaders MUST know which words they are using. When stating that much pressure on targetting just one person, the possibillites to get the number of others vanish in his grave. If you said "Wanted alive!", there would be a chance of communicating that the free world wants to use other standards than terrorism, when it comes to the solving of major conflicts.

"Wanted dead or alive!" is nothing else than to invite all others to use the same methods that the terrorists uses themselves. We can´t support this, and keep on beleiving we are better people than them!

I truly respect the deep sorrow, grief and losses so many Americans must live through these days, and I do understand the anger which comes out of these awful actions. But I don´t think violence will make any solution towards making this world a safer place, at any side of the Atlantic Ocean.

Regards Ole Johan, Norway
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6409
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 7:45 am

I wrote: "Don't expect Sweden, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France etc. stand firm deep into October".

Ah727 wrote: "Swedish young men and women are not going to die for America!"

There you see... Last week the whole world was united against world terrorism. Six days later...!!! I said "deep into October". It barely held one hour.

It seems that I even got the sequence correct first time. And I'm pretty sure that next on my list will be right too.

Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Guest

Tack!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 7:51 am

Till Preben Norholm och LN-OJB
(To Preben Norholm och LN-OJB)


Thanks for clarifying the Scandinavian point of wiew.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Do We See The Same World?

Tue Sep 18, 2001 8:00 am

ln-obj, shoud we just say to this nut Bin Laden "Mr. Bin Laden, we don't like you attacking us, and we're against violence, so please stop."?

You need a dose of reality.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6409
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 8:05 am

The USA recenly did the major part of the surgery on the worst cancer on Europe during several decades - Yugoslavia.

Six days after WTC, the world's worst terror act, European countries are stepping on the feet of each other while running away from their responcibility for this planet.

I don't think that I can find a moment in my life when I have been more ashamed being European than right now.

Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
toady
Posts: 700
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2001 2:36 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 8:13 am

This is an interesting and thought-provoking article. The 3rd & 4th paragraphs are particularly pertinent to this discussion.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-steyn091701.shtml

I must say that I also think "war" is inappropriate, if only for emotive reasons.
"War" requires 2 or more opposing forces of warriors - I don't think we should dignify terrorists with that title.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Do We See The Same World?

Tue Sep 18, 2001 8:30 am

Damn, I hate when I get distracted and post on the wrong thread!  Confused
 
Staffan
Posts: 3879
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:21 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 8:34 am

I agree to Ah727, Sweden shouldn't join with armed forces. Sweden is and will remain a neutral country.

Perhaps that is why we see little or no terrorism there...

However I'm sure they will share their intelligence if it is needed.

Staffan

 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 8:40 am

Alpha 1, there is no evidence Bin Laden is behind these terrorist attacks. The U.S. government has clearly stated that he's the number one suspect, but so far no evidence directly points to him.

We shouldn't forget that Bin Laden's isn't the only terrorist organization around. He may know of who did it, but he didn't necessarily authorize it, although he probably would love to take credit for it.

Over the past few days, everyone in the U.S. has been running around with the name Bin Laden on the tip of their tongues. In my opinion, it's a desperate attempt to quickly pin the blame on a scapegoat in order to distract from their own incompetence in intelligence gathering. To this day, the U.S. bars anyone with a criminal or felony background from working in the CIA. How're you going to catch the bad guys without recruiting other bad guys?
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6409
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 8:54 am

Alpha 1 wrote: "...should we just say to this nut Bin Laden "Mr. Bin Laden, we don't like you attacking us, and we're against violence, so please stop.?
You need a dose of reality."

Dear Alpha 1: Yes, I think that you pinpointed the Scandinavian way pretty precisely.
Dose of reality: No
Opportunism: Yes.

We Scandinavians have a big mouth when correcting others. When it comes to problem solving, however, then we hide away. Or we find excuses like for instance the fact that an inappropriate word "war" has been used to describe the indescribeable.

But as I said before: If only we can avoid ending up throwing virtual knives into your back, then you should be happy, and we Scandinavians will have made great progress against reality. But watch out from behind. Even small needles may be irritating.

Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Guest

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 9:19 am

Australia is standing firmly behind the United States with any military action.

What a lot of you seem to forget is that as soon as the USA / joint forces retaliate we can expect a major increase of terrorist activities around the world. It will then be up to each individual nation to crush them with whatever force necessary.

Innocent lives will be lost, tragic as this may be, but do you particularly want to live in constant fear that 'you may be the next victim of terrorism'?

I think not. Bin Laden is on the hot list for extermination because he has already caused the deaths of many innocents through terrorism. Something that many people seem to forget.

mb
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6409
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 9:51 am

Staffan wrote: "...Sweden shouldn't join with armed forces. Sweden is and will remain a neutral country. Perhaps that is why we see little or no terrorism there..."

Dear Staffan, forgive me if I scratch old wounds. But:
Olof Palme
Your neo nazi groups terrorizing half of this continent
Gothenburg
.....
Sweden is the country where Hell's Angles and Bandidos break into army depots with a screw driver and steal Bofors anti tank missiles for their mutual war thoughout Europe. On the joking side one went right through a Danish prison building and did not detonate because the walls were too "soft". But jokes were the exception.

Sweden is not some invulnerable island of Eden, it's an ordinary member of planet Earth.

Regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Staffan
Posts: 3879
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:21 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 10:04 am

Hey, those are national problems that Sweden deals with itself, these kind of conflicts exist in every country on this earth. BUT, Sweden isn't beeing bombed by other country's terrorists because they have been
participating in armed conflicts around the world.

Staffan


 
Guest

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 11:16 am

Alpha1: I don't know where are you from...but I guess you are american...and please, try to NEVER laugh at Italy and italians...because when your country was NOTHING but buffalos and some pariries inhabited by indians, ITALY was an empire, that controlled the whole Mediterranean Sea...where people went to the Colosseum to watch gladiator spectacles...SO PLEASE SHUT YOUR MOUTH UP.

And...WHY SHOULD GERMANY,NORWAY AND ITALY SEND TROOPS??? Come on...if americans want to attack, then attack by yourselves.Terrorism will never be erradicated and obviously a war will not help at all

Hadpa
 
OO-AOG
Posts: 1395
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 1:24 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 11:59 am

Less countries involved, better it is.
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
fritzi
Posts: 2598
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 2:34 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 5:49 pm

Why the hell should we get involved with a treaty when we have no enemies? Like during WWII. We stayed out of the war and managed to do so because we had no enemies and no intensions getting involved with the war. Unlike the US...
So why should we get involved now. Should we send our troops to maybe die for something that we're not involved in?

Fly-by-pilot: At least our women can walk out the door without having to roll out like some of yours do.
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 6:04 pm

Well, here in Britain we are 110% behind the USA. The newspapers here have even stated that we will use the SAS to capture Bin Laden without assistance from US troops (the SAS captured pretty much every Serbian war criminal and apparently aren't keen to work with Delta Force after the Somalia fiasco)
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 6:32 pm

Don't know what the Netherlands will do in this case.
In the past, we have supported terrorists (oops, freedom fighters) all over the world if not actively then passively by providing a safe place to hole up and voice their propaganda.
Prime recent example are the Kurdish separatists in Turkey (PKK) who have their international headquarters (oops, parlaiment in exile) in the Netherlands like the PLO had their in Tunisia.
I wish I were flying
 
Thom@s
Posts: 11674
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2000 2:03 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 8:36 pm

Hmmm, I thought we would help, anyway, we wouldn't be able to do too much. Last time we helped NATO, we just protected an airforce base.

Anyway, I actually think this is between USA and the terrorists.

Thom@s
"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
 
Staffan
Posts: 3879
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:21 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 8:46 pm

If you want to rule the world and be a superpower, not everypne will agree to that. And then you have to deal with it yourself!

Staffan
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 8:59 pm

Hadpa, ROME was an empire, not Italy. LOL. And their modern record in war, led by that buffoon Mussollini is not exactly a great moment in World History.

And Fritzi, you're from Austria. Let's talk about WW II. In WW II, Austria LET ITSELF BE TAKEN OVER by Heir Hitler and that wonderful gang of his. So you didn't stay out of any war, did you? YOu became part of a Greater Germany that launched the bloodiest war the world has ever seen. And yes-the U.S. had enemeis then-Germany, Italy and Japan-the three biggest thug nations that existed in that day. So much for your slant on history, which, the truth be told, was an outright lie by you. You're just a little kid, and you have not inkling about your country's history? I've been reading about WW II since I was a teenager, so I know quite a bit about Austria, the Anschluss, and the history of Austria and it's crimes in WW II.

The problem with people like you Fritzi, is that you're unwilling to stand up for anything that's important-you're quite willing to pacify these terrorists, the same way your country tried to Pacify Hitler. If you're an example of Austria these days, then your country, sadly, hasn't learned a damned thing.

 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 9:06 pm

I think Fritzi meant Sweden, not Austria...
He did get his history wrong either way.
Sweden was heavily involved in WWII, though not militarilly. Sweden supplied Germany with large amounts of steel for their warmachine, as well as some chemicals.
I wish I were flying
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 9:20 pm

If we go to a real war, we will have to finish it, and it will be long.
Because not only one country will be involved. Probably the majority of Islamic countries will enter the war and no doubt all European countries will HAVE to enter the war, without choice.
It will turn into a religion war Christians vs Muslims and will end someday perhaps. I hope we can avoid this scenario.

I heard something that scares me and shocks me much: some muslims in France, in a supermarket, probably when they were buying COKE and other typical western stuff, applauded to the attacks (yeah !!!!). It's hard to believe. These fundamentalists are a real danger. But I guess it's not a good reason to nuke France (please don't).

 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 9:21 pm

At least our women can walk out the door without having to roll out like some of yours do.

ROFLMAO!!! Good one!

On the other issue: The civilized world has been given a unique opportunity to band together and do whatever it takes to exterminate terrorism. I find it sad that Germany, Italy and Norway want to isolate themselves and hide in their shells.

But it is absolutely UNFORGIVABLE that after decades of America's defending Europe at massive cost (and to the immense economic benefit of the European countries) throughout the Cold War, that these 3 countries have decided to unilateraly renig on their commitment in regards to the North Atlantic Treaty, which NATO invoked last week.

They have broken the treaty that has kept them free for the past half century, as soon as it started to look as though they might have to give a little something back.

Germany, Italy and Norway - 3 countries that I have known and loved for many years, have shown themselves to be faithless, weak, and cowardly.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
gekkogecko
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 10:21 pm

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 9:25 pm

Alpha1,
you read much about WWII. This is very interessting to me. What is in the books you read written about the masterpice of the American Airforce, 02.13.1945 Dresden. Germany was smashed and the war as good as over. Supplementary to the population of Dresden there where over 40,000 refugees in the city and everyone knew this. In this night 135,000 lost their life. Great job, really, very brave act.

Now to the properly question, why won't others help.
America is, like every second American says, a superpower nation and better then the whole world. They go in, do what to do and go out. Simple, so they don't need help.
Why should other Nations offer help to a such wonderfull and propper Nation?

 
IndianGuy
Posts: 3126
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 3:14 pm

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 9:35 pm

If this is true, then Hats of to the Germans, Italians etc who have done what others couldnt. After all why should Germans send their young people out to fight a battle that only serves to butter AMerican egos.

Bin Laden was a creation of the American intelligence. as long he stuck to attacking the Soviets, and later sending his "mujahids" to spread terror in India/Israel, BIn Laden was a "Freedom Fighter". The moment he turns his bombs on the US, these Yanks expect us to take common cause with them and destroy this ogre! Fat chance!

It isnt the first time it has happened now is it? Saddam Hussein was another creation of American stupidity. The yanks armed saddam to keep the Iranians in check. THey gave him his chemical bombs and also gave him nuclear technology as long as he promised to use them against the mullahs in Iran. the moment he turned on the US, the Yanks pulled the whole world to fight him, an ogre they had themselves created.

Now it happens again. SO why should the rest of the worl keep paying for american stupidity?
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 9:39 pm

Gekkogecko, did I NOT say in other discussions that each country has it's own shamful acts? And that was one, wasn't it? So was the Final Solution: so was the Baatan Death March; so was the brutal murder of Soviet and German prisoners at the hands of the other.

Why won't other's help? Easy-because all these nations-and all their peoples who want everyone to help them, refuse in turn to help no one. That's what is is.

It has nothing to do with being a "Superpower". It has to do with standing up and being counted among those that will say "this terror will not stand", and who are willing to do something about it. People like you want your freedom, but you're not willing to fight to keep it, or help others' keep it. Maybe that's the difference between the U.S. and Germany-the U.S. is willing to put it on the line, even for the sake of others-Germany will not.
 
gekkogecko
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 10:21 pm

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 9:53 pm

Alpha 1,
If I read other Forum topics, it seems that it is the only fact.
America is the best and all others are just jealous. Did you read what indianguy writes? The part with Ibn Laden.
However, I am against the mode people talk about Nations. There are only individuals doing sick things.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 10:18 pm

I read what Indianguy wrote: and you, Indianguy, Fritzi, AA-AOG, and others-well, there's one word for all of you: cowards. That's the word. You won't agree, but that's what you are. You would want U.S. help if something of this magnitude had happend in Spain, Germany, Norway, Austria, etc. Yet simply because we're the "superpower"-the one that has helped all of western Europe to prosper after WW II, you say "why should we help?"

Who supported West Germany all those years during the Cold War, gave them billions of $$ to stay free-the United States. Who spent billions on the Marshall Plan, to rebuild western Europe, after WW II? The United States did. Who gave Britian immediate political, material and economic support during The Falklands War-the United States did. Who sends money, aid, investigative teams after each earthquake, each airliner accident, every volcano-even if it's to countries, like Iran, that doesn't even have formal relations with the U.S.? We do.

Where are our friends when we need them, may I ask? During the great San Francisco Earthquake of 1906? During Hurricane Andrew that did $25 billion in damages to this country? During the Iran Hostage Crisis (with the exception being Canada)? During ANY disaster that hits the U.S. The ONLY tme I ever heard of our friends wanting to help us was when Apollo 13 was in danger. Other that, help from our friends and allies in times of crisis is little or none.

If you can look at the events of last week, and NOT see it as an attack not just on the U.S. but on western culture; on free societies; on societies that believe in civilized behavior, then you honestly don't deserve your freedoms that you enjoy, and you have no right to share in it's bounty.
 
go canada!
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RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 10:18 pm

"Alpha1,
you read much about WWII. This is very interessting to me. What is in the books you read written about the masterpice of the American Airforce, 02.13.1945 Dresden. Germany was smashed and the war as good as over. Supplementary to the population of Dresden there where over 40,000 refugees in the city and everyone knew this. In this night 135,000 lost their life. Great job, really, very brave act. "

I persume this was scarsm, what about germanys total disregard for life whcih saw 6 million jews killed and britain bombed to kingdom come, you bleat abput dresden, excuse me your country was quite happy to march across half the world killing anyone in site.

it was quite happy to bomb britain,
invade france
invade belguim
invade holland
take over austria
invade poland
invadethe ussr

so dont you dare suggest that soem how germany was the vitcim of the second world war, they knew what they were doing and the whole country backed it.

West germany expected american, britain and the rest of nato to protect it if russian tanks came rolling through east germany yet now as usual its umming and ahhing.

same as france, quite happily yet the usa and the uk rsaved it in two world wars, now its umming and ahhing.

Italy a global empire?ha ha ha ha ha
sorry rome was, after the fall of rome the italian states were pawns of other countries and when they finally got round to merging to form italy they still messed it up and go through governments quicker than
mc donalds go through cows.

i am disgusted by some of europe over this, yet im british and i can say that we will always help america because it always helped us.




It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 10:37 pm

People seem to not understand the scope of this, or at least deny it. This isn't just a group of wackos with a hard-on for the United States. This is a group that despises EVERYONE that isn't them. They justify their lack of civility and barbaric behavior through a twisting corruption of Islam. If people from free countries all over the world think they aren't in the cross-hairs along with the United States, they're sorely mistaken. The fanatical 'Islamics' want to make the entire world like them and will happily kill people that aren't; all in the name of their 'god'. Not only are some of our supposed friends not helping us in this war, they are asking us to fight a battle that THEY need won. This is the western culture against fanatical culture, not the US against Bin Laden. If a country lives the Western culture and are not players, then they ARE cowards, because this is THEIR war too.
"Shaddap you!"
 
gekkogecko
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 10:21 pm

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 10:41 pm

Go Canada,

"so dont you dare suggest that soem how germany was the vitcim of the second world war, they knew what they were doing and the whole country backed it."

I never did say the germans where the victims of WWII. They started it and they pay for it, till this day. The example of Dresden should show that no Nation can say: "We never did anything bad ... and all germans shut up for the rest of their life and be thankful."
Wasn't it Bomber-Harris who lead the attack on Dresden?
 
go canada!
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RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 10:46 pm

I agree 100% jetservice,as normal you speak with wisdom.

this was an act aginst humanity, and in my view an act against god.
These islamic extermists use their relgion as an excuse to attack and maim, everyone knows that islam is a peacful faith and most muslims utterly condemm these attacks.

Yet here in the uk and in the usa, race attacks are stating, at the same time european countires are now getting cold feet, they do not apperiacate this these attacks could happen to anyone.

this is why those countries used to terrorists like the UK(with northern irish terrorists), spain(with the eta problem), russia with muslim terrorists, japan(remember the tokyo gassing in the underground stations) and israel are the one who are backing the usa.

A few years ago, russian backing of american military action would be unthinkable, however they now know what it is like to have terrorits disrupt society and i feel they will quite happily sends some migs into chezyna(sp) and afghanistan if need be.

It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
go canada!
Posts: 2886
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Germany, Italy, Norway: NOT Helping!

Tue Sep 18, 2001 10:52 pm

no nation can say they havent been invloved in miltary action.

however as an historian, i am more objective and less emontional then you and realise that the bombing of dresden was necessary as was the bombing of japan and the future miltary action against terrorists.

however, europe should at least realise that this invloves them as well, if they are going to be in nato then they should expect to help out and not let the usa and the uk do all the hard work.

who supported west germany and rebuilt it? the usa.
west germany expected nato to protect it form the russians, it seems like a lot of europe, its take take take without any give.

how very liberal.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit

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