Hepkat
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Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Sun Sep 30, 2001 8:22 am

For all of us interested, here's a Times article that attempts to explain Muslim grievances against the U.S. I think this is especially important for Americans to read, as this article argues from the other side of the coin.

Times Magazine
October 1, 2001 Vol. 158 No. 15
Roots Of Rage
Grievances over U.S. policy in the Middle East combined with Islamic triumphalism make a toxic mix


Among the signs waved by Pakistanis in demonstrations last week was one in English that read AMERICANS, THINK! WHY DOES THE WHOLE WORLD HATE YOU? Actually, Americans didn't need that exhortation to ask the question, Why?

The reasons are complex and deeply rooted in history. The proximate source of this brand of hatred toward America is U.S. foreign policy (read: meddling) in the Middle East. On top of its own controversial history in the region, the U.S. inherits the weight of centuries of Muslim bitterness over the Crusades and other military campaigns, plus decades of indignation over colonialism.

But to get to the virulence of antipathy exhibited by the kamikaze 19 and their abettors and apologists, another element is required. That element is the idea that the U.S. is not just the enemy of the Arabs or even of Muslims generally but also the enemy of God. It is an idea encouraged by the Ayatullah Khomeini, who proclaimed the U.S. "the Great Satan," spread by Islamic extremists throughout the Arab world and now given potent expression by, it would seem, the biggest player among all such militants today, Osama bin Laden.

Animosity toward the U.S. in the Middle East can be plotted through concentric circles. In the white-hot core are violent ideologues like bin Laden and their acolytes. Then come Arab radicals, including both Islamic fundamentalists and secular nationalists, who are desperate and angry enough to have danced in the streets upon hearing the news of Sept. 11. But the distaste also extends to large numbers of temperate Arabs who were quietly pleased to see American arrogance taken down a notch--business people and family people who smiled and sent messages of congratulations to one another when the Twin Towers fell. The middle sphere forms a substantial recruiting base for the toxic inner hub. It and the outer loop are the reason the U.S. faces an enormous challenge persuading even its allies among Arab governments to sign on to its war against terror. And the entire web of ill will invites the question, Will the U.S. go to war against Middle East enemies and, by that very act, just create more of them?

Certainly the greatest single source of Arab displeasure with the U.S. is its stalwart support of Israel: politically (notably at the U.N.), economically ($840 million in aid annually) and militarily ($3 billion more, plus access to advanced U.S. weapons). To a majority of Arabs, Israel, as a Jewish state, is an unwelcome, alien entity. Even to those who accept its existence, Israel is an oppressor of Arab rights; despite the Oslo peace process, it still occupies most of the Palestinian territories. Particularly egregious to Muslims is Israel's control over Islamic shrines in Jerusalem, the third most sacred city to Islam.

Each time Israel stages an incursion into its Arab neighborhood, it adds a new layer of grievance. Its invasion of Lebanon in 1982 and the occupation of Lebanon's southern tip for 18 years afterward bred deep antagonism. And the U.S. role in these assaults is never far away: Israel is using American missiles and F-16s in its current struggle against the Palestinians. When it comes time to broker peace in the region, many Arabs are inflamed by the strong U.S. bias toward Israel in negotiations. To Islamic fanatics, including bin Laden, the peace process is of course anathema; for them, Israel is a state to be destroyed, not to be bargained with.

Bin Laden, a Saudi, speaks out frequently against Israel, but for him the real casus belli is the U.S. troop presence in his country dating to the military buildup before the 1991 Gulf War precipitated by Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait. To bin Laden, as well as many nonradical Muslims, the presence of infidel soldiers in the homeland of the Prophet Muhammad is a sacrilege. Today 7,000 U.S. soldiers are stationed in Saudi Arabia. That the U.S. servicemen are there at the invitation of the Saudi government is irrelevant to bin Laden. He considers the Saudi royals stooges of the U.S.

It is a common refrain among America's critics in the region that the U.S. props up objectionable local leaders out of selfish interests. To protect its access to oil, the U.S. supports repressive princes in the Persian Gulf states. In an effort to contain Islamic extremism, Washington backs the government of Algeria's President, Abdelaziz Bouteflika, despite its ironfisted conduct in the civil war against the Armed Islamic Group. The authoritarian regime of Egypt's Hosni Mubarak also enjoys the patronage ($2.7 billion a year) of the U.S., which views him as a bulwark of moderation and stability in the region. Classmates in Egypt of one of the Sept. 11 hijackers, Mohamed Atta, told the New York Times he used to blast Mubarak for being an autocrat surrounded by "fat cats." "We want to understand, are you Americans in favor of human rights and freedom? Or is that the privilege of some people and not others?" says Essam El Eryan, a leading member of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood.

America's detractors complain that the U.S. is impervious not only to Arab rights but also to Arab suffering. If the Palestinians are Exhibit A, the Iraqis are Exhibit B. While most Arabs detest Saddam for his own brand of brutality and arrogance, they don't understand why the U.S. continues to insist, 10 years after the Iraqis were forced out of Kuwait, on worldwide sanctions that are devastating the Iraqi people. According to the U.N., some 5,000 Iraqi children die every month of malnutrition and disease because of the sanctions.

"Would we tolerate this kind of boycott, the starving of Czechs, for example?" asks A. Kevin Reinhart, professor of religion at Dartmouth. "No. We've done some specific things that are perceived as reflecting either an indifference to or a hostility to Muslims." Islamic radicals keep a list of what they consider our casual cruelty, although their definition of who is inflicting the pain sometimes includes all of Christendom. They list the U.S. sanctions against Syria, Libya, Iran and Sudan--all Muslim countries (and all, not coincidentally, considered by the State Department to be sponsors of terrorism). They list the U.S. missile strikes in 1998 on a bin Laden camp in Afghanistan and a pharmaceutical factory in Sudan (Washington originally claimed the plant was making chemical weapons but has quietly backed off the charge). They believe Western powers tolerated for too long--from 1992 until the NATO bombings in 1995--the ethnic cleansing by Christian Serbs of Bosnian Muslims and the later killings by Serbs of ethnic Albanian Muslims in Kosovo. Another grievance is the fact that the U.S. has done little to stop Russia's savage war against separatist Muslims in Chechnya because it considers the conflict an internal matter for Moscow. To Americans, all these matters are proof that it is a messy world out there. To many Muslims, it looks like a conspiracy against their fellow believers.

Underlying all these laments is a deep resentment that the Arab world is not the geopolitical player it feels entitled to be. The wound is aggravated by a historical memory of grandeur, of Islam's expansion from Arabia in the 7th century to the conquest of the Levant, northern Africa and much of Europe, culminating in a final rebuff at the gates of Vienna 10 centuries later. The question many Arabs ask the U.S. and the West in general, says Professor Jean Leca of the Institute of Political Science in Paris, is, "Why are you leaning so heavily on us when we already had a civilization while you were still living in caves?"

The brutality of Christendom's efforts to conquer the Holy Land from the Muslims in the Crusades of the 11th, 12th and 13th centuries is not forgotten in the Middle East (making President Bush's early use of the word crusade to describe America's antiterror effort an unfortunate choice). An even greater sore is the sense that, in the centuries since, so much dignity has been lost, and to an inferior people. In Islamic belief, Muhammad is God's last prophet; he built upon the revelations of Moses and Jesus to propound a superior, perfect faith. But the world that faith created was broken apart: after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in World War I, the colonial powers of France and Britain carved the Middle East into arbitrarily drawn mandates and states governed by handpicked local leaders. "Many Arabs and Muslims feel they had 10 centuries of great cultural achievement that ended with European colonialism," says John Esposito, director of the Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding at Georgetown University. "Now they feel impotent. The West, they feel, looks at them as backward and is only interested in their oil. Their sense of self-worth and identity is wounded."

Colonialism and the advance of Western modernity have nurtured the modern version of Islamic fundamentalism: if Islam is perfect and its kingdom is in retreat, it must be that its practitioners have strayed from the fundamentals of the faith. This notion gained increasing currency after 1979, when a popular uprising overthrew the corrupt, Westernizing, U.S.-backed Shah of Iran and paved the way for the Ayatullah Khomeini to launch an Islamic revolution in Iran and beyond. Khomeini called Muslims to violence to conquer "the land of the infidel."

Khomeini's export project had limited success, given that the Iranians, as Shi'ites, belong to a sect of Islam disdained by the majority Sunnis. But the Iranian revolution nevertheless inspired Muslims all over the Arab world to action. Egyptian writer Abd al-Salam Faraj wrote their manifesto, a pamphlet called The Neglected Duty, in which he argued that holy war was necessary to defend not just Muslims but Muslim dignity. Faraj, like many other Muslim radicals, singled out those parts of the Koran and the Hadith, the collected sayings and deeds attributed to Muhammad, that seemed to support his argument.

Bin Laden has come to fulfill the Neglected Duty. He talks a lot about dignity. Of the terrorists who killed 24 U.S. servicemen and two Indians in attacks in 1995 and 1996 in Saudi Arabia, he once said, "They have raised the nation's head high and washed away a great part of the shame that has enveloped us." Bin Laden fancies himself a modern-day Saladin, the Muslim commander who liberated Jerusalem from the Crusaders. "I envision Saladin coming out of the clouds," bin Laden says in a videotape released earlier this year to his supporters. "Our history is being rewritten."

It's a powerful message to many Arabs who otherwise see a future bereft of pride. "Islam Is the Solution" is the slogan of the Islamic movement, and to many it seems a better bet than the Arab nationalism that has brought them poverty, corrupt governments or both. Even if the U.S. succeeds in routing bin Laden and his network, the message will continue to resonate, especially given new resentments kicked up by any U.S. military action.

On the other hand, it is the triumphalist religious convictions of bin Laden that make him and his followers so dangerous. "This is not violence in the service of some practical program," says Steven Simon, a former member of the National Security Council who is writing a book on religiously inspired terrorism. "It is killing infidels in the service of Allah. To a secular person, it's crazy. How can that be an end in itself? The facts speak for themselves: there is one objective here, to kill an enormous number of people and humiliate the Satanic power. There is no claim of responsibility because there is only one audience, and that is God." With a God they perceive to be admiringly urging them on, bin Laden's associates have no self-restraint. They are limited only by their capabilities, which the U.S. has now decided it has no choice but to destroy.

 
Whistler
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Sun Sep 30, 2001 8:39 am

If the Arabs (Syria, Egypt, etc) didn't try to invade Israel every time they get the chance the Israelis wouldn't need any military support from the US. The cause of the whole problem is Arab hatred towards Jews. If the Arabs thought they had any chance of beating Israel in a conventional war they would invade today. But they know they can't beat Israel and their advanced American weapons systems, which is why they are pissed at the US and why they need to use cowardly terrorists. The West Bank/Gaza/Golan Heights wouldn't even be part of Israel if the Arabs didn't keep losing wars that they start themselves.

Why do you think Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982?? For fun?? They did it because that was the only way to stop all the terrorists that were (and still are) using it as a base of operations.
 
fspilot747
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Sun Sep 30, 2001 11:36 am

Whistler: "Why do you think Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982?? For fun?? They did it because that was the only way to stop all the terrorists that were (and still are) using it as a base of operations."

Click here please: http://sstemporary.tripod.com

-you still think it was to stop all the terrorists??
 
fspilot747
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Sun Sep 30, 2001 11:36 am

Whistler: "Why do you think Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982?? For fun?? They did it because that was the only way to stop all the terrorists that were (and still are) using it as a base of operations."

Click here please: http://sstemporary.tripod.com

-you still think it was just to stop all the terrorists??
 
fspilot747
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Sun Sep 30, 2001 11:38 am

sorry for the double post there...

kind regards,
FSPilot747
 
Whistler
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Sun Sep 30, 2001 11:39 am

Yes...

All that site is a bunch of pictures of dead soldiers, quite nasty actually.
 
tupolev154b2
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Sun Sep 30, 2001 11:59 am

bin Laden is a coward and must be destroyed. If we need to nuke the entire mid East, we shall do so. There is no other way to stop these madmen from destroying us.
 
tbar220
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Sun Sep 30, 2001 12:28 pm

The picture are of the Qana Massacre. FSPilot747, they have nothing to do with the invasion of 1982. I've seen you post those pictures before in our little debate.

Don't try to make it look like Israel invaded Lebanon to commit genocide on their civilians.
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fspilot747
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Sun Sep 30, 2001 4:23 pm

Tbar220: I see we meet again  Smile.

I choose to bring those pictures up because they are a good reminder that the Israelis aren't the "victims" many americans make them out to be. I feel it necessary not to just sit back and watch people post about stuff they really don't understand much about. Let's not argue about it...

Whistler: Those aren't dead soldiers..most of those victims were kids.

I'm tired of talking bout the middle east  Yawn-I'm gonna take a break from it, lol.

kind regards,
FSPilot747
 
LY744
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Sun Sep 30, 2001 10:39 pm

FSPilot747:

Yeah, every time anyone replies to your posts, you decide to "take a break".
As usual, you are telling only one side of the story. The Qana massacre occured in 1996, during an escalation in the conflict in South Lebanon. As always, it was caused by the increase in terrorist activity. Someone figured out it was a good idea to put several thousand refugees in a known Hezbollah site, when every idiot could have figured out that that site is going to be attacked very soon. It was. Israeli artillery shelled the camp, and many innocent civilians were killed. We all know that terrorists always hide behind women and children, but this is a little cruel even for them. During the last 23 years, many civilians were killed in Lebanon, almost all of them under similar sircumstances. But I guess Israel should have just let Lebanese terrorists keep taking over schools and day cares in northern Israel, eh?

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Whistler
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 12:09 am

"Those aren't dead soldiers..most of those victims were kids."

Well then, I didn't examine those photos that carefully. As LY744 said, Everyone knows Hezbollah tries to use refugee camps as a shield. Very heroic don't you think?
 
go canada!
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 12:50 am

just as the taliban are using a british journalist as a shield at the moment.

FSPilot747:

-dont bother posting in the first place if you cant handle the replys.

and we all now that hepkat feels that israel is the root of all troubles in the middle east dont we?
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Whistler
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 1:02 am

Well if Hepkat feels that way fine, but the arabs are the root of all troubles in Israel.
 
go canada!
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 1:12 am

yes thats his opinion, even if its wrong.

The arabs are the root of the troubles, especially hamas and hizbollah who didnt liek what arafat was doign so stirred the anti-zionism movement up just before arafat was due to declare independence and because arafat is weak they continued and sharon then arrived on the scence.

its the falsified 'freedom fighters' of hamasa and hizbollah who use islam as an excuse to kill who are to blame.

regards

Neil
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
tbar220
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 1:25 am

"Whistler: Those aren't dead soldiers..most of those victims were kids.

I'm tired of talking bout the middle east -I'm gonna take a break from it, lol."


He's gonna take a break guys. hahahaha, isn't that sooooo funny  Yeah sure.

You're so cowardly when it comes to these topics. You try to change the subject, and then somebody points it out to you, you wont admit it. Then when somebody like Whistler says something to refute you, you just quote it but don't acknowledge it.

So go ahead, take you're little break. Its so painful and hard to argue with us. Your actions just tell us that you think we're right, but you're too much of a "man" to admit it openly.

Just my two cents...


Tzvika

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Jaspike
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 2:10 am

How long did it take to type that out?!
 
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yyz717
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 2:31 am

I look at it this way.

Israel shares the west's judeo-christian values of rule of law, an independent judiciary, democracy, a relatively unfettered marketplace. It is only natural that the west support its kindred spirit in the region.

Does this mean the US is against Islam? Hardly, the US has experienced the largest Muslim immigration of ANY country in the last 30 years...approx 5M Muslims. I would argue this shows the US as a supporter of Islam...not to mention the US going to war to free Kuwait.

Perhaps if the Arab countries would embrace democracy, freedom of religion, and improve their own human rights, the US and other western countries could provide more balanced aid to the region.

Another thought...when you're the richest & strongest country, you are going to elicit alot of jealousy. no matter how benign your foreign policy.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Hepkat
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 3:01 am

Go Canada, please take your infantile behavior elsewhere and not involve my name with your fantasies. You are DESPERATELY seeking attention, but I would suggest you try to get a life instead of putting words in my mouth. You know nothing about me, and you and I have no history together.

Show me any post where I've ever stated that "Israel is the root of all troubles in the Middle East."
 
Guest

RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 3:10 am

From what I understand, Israel was formed on Arab land after WWII. If this is true than isn't Israel occupying land that is not theirs? And with the military superiority given to them by the U.S., who wouldn't protest?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, and perhaps better inform me on the subject...
-Clovis  Smile
 
tbar220
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 3:21 am

FSPilot747,

"Before you call me a coward, look through my other posts."

Alright, you asked for it...

Quotes from FSPilot747's previous posts on middle east conflict...

"I feel it necessary not to just sit back and watch people post about stuff they really don't understand much about. Let's not argue about it..."

"I'm tired of talking bout the middle east -I'm gonna take a break from it, lol."

"Ok I'm out of this thread, see you guys later. "

"I think it's better if we put this thread to rest, because I am pretty sure Johan is."


You like to resort to insults when the thread doesn't tend to go your way.

"I don't ignore your posts, they are just too rediculous to respond to."

"But don't worry, I won't take it too hard, I know it's just your immaturity, thats all."



If I could go back through more of the older archived posts, I could spend all day giving examples like these.

So, looking through your other posts, I will call you a coward.
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tbar220
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 3:28 am

Leftseat86,

Israel was created on land that was a British mandate, not Arab land. It was occupied by both Arab's and Jews. In 1947, the United Nations proposed a split up of the land for two separate nations, one Arab and one Jewish. The Jews accepted this proposition, and the Arabs rejected it, saying they would only accept the entire area of Palestine. Mistake #1.

Mistake #2, once the British left the area and Israel declared its statehood (approved and recognized by the UN), the Arab nations of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt attacked Israel. For two years, Israel fought its war of independence, and won, taking the western part of Jerusalem and securing the state of Israel.

This was won in a war which the Arab's attacked them, and the nation was recognized by the UN. This does not consitute military occupation of Arab lands. It is the nation of Israel, just like the state of California isn't considered military occupation of Mexican lands.

The land the Israel has now apart from the West Bank and Gaza is theirs, won with blood and war, and the Arab nations cannot recognize that.
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Guest

RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 3:32 am

Thank you for educating me, hope I didn't sound too dumb...
 Smile
 
fspilot747
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 4:38 am

No leftseat, you didn't sound too dumb. Your post made more sense than a lot of others here.

Tbar: Okay, like three of those first set of quotes were from this very thread. The other one about putting the thread to rest was from "more violence in israel." Those of you who read TBar's post can scroll up and look at the context from those quotes. You have this very nice way of twisting our ideas and expressions, tbar. For one thing, I have NEVER backed out from a post. And you know that. All I ever say is quit arguing in such a petty way, and once I left a thread because it was going nowhere, you also left that very thread. So stop being nasty and trying to make me look bad because you always have the same arguments. And that post about not responding to rediculous posts, that was intended for Toda, his posts ARE too rediculous to respond to, because he is so racist.

-FSPilot747


 
Twotterwrench
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 4:42 am

I couldn't care any less about what the Middle East is pissed off about. The only thing that matters now is that they picked a fight they cannot win. I am just waiting for the body count to start.
 
Whistler
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 4:45 am

Okay FSPilot, now you are just getting wierd. You see a picture and make up a whole lie to go with it. How do you know those aren't Israeli kids killed in a terrorist attack against a school or day care? And if the Hizbollah uses refugees as shields what do they expect to happen?
 
Guest

RE: Hepkat

Mon Oct 01, 2001 4:48 am

I always enjoy reading yor truly informative, and well researched posts...
 Smile
 
avion
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 5:07 am

Hepkat that was a great post.

But i still have some question. Why dont arabs ever attack western europe??

Tom
 
Hepkat
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 5:21 am

Thank you Avion. According to the article, it's because they don't see Western Europe as being a big sponsor to Israel, or providing it with sophisticated military equipment. I've also read elsewhere that the EU is much quicker to criticize both the U.S. and Israel over Palestinian issues.
 
Whistler
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 5:24 am

Because Western Europe doesn't help Israel. France used to but then stabbed the Israelis in the back when the oil rich arabs got mad. Now the US helps defend Israel from Arab attack/invasion which pisses people like bin laden off.
 
LY744
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 6:35 am

FSPilot747:

"You don't think I can handle these replies? What kind of idiot are you. Apparently, you didn't learn anything from the other threads on the Middle East."

Resorting to name calling, eh? That's a good sign for me. From the other threads on the ME I have learned that:
a) You like accusing me of supporting Israel blindly, which I'm clearly not.
b) You keep coming back to a one single argument (Qana).
c) You ignore other peoples replies, or dismiss them without any reason. Now that pisses me off. Someone spends 20 minutes to type out a perfectly good reply just to read your post saying "no".
d) You yourself seem to blame Israel for all civilian casualties in the conflict, without considering any other possibility, and then criticize me for being one-sided.
e) You back out of threads all the time just to come back and insult someone. Note that I never called you a
"coward", you said it yourself.

"You think the Israelies were really so innocent that they thought all those little kids were part of Hizbollah? Not just the shelling...I am talking about individual killings. The soldiers brutally massacred these children and women. Look at the photos again. Israel knew what it was doing. Sharon knows what he's doing now. In my eyes, Sharon is worse than Hizbollah."

I have to say that it was a very ignorant statement by you. As I said earlier ("read my previous posts more carefully"), there were no Israeli soldiers anywhere near Qana! The place was shelled by artillery. The soldiers at the artillery battery can't see their target, they get a set of co-ordinates on which they shoot their amunition. Actual gun battles were very rare in Lebanon.

"Again, LY744, try reading through my previous posts more carefully, how many times have I made it clear the flaws on BOTH sides. Your the one who needs to look at both sides, because you really don't. Whenever someone replies to YOUR posts, with some valid resources, you do something dumb like call BBC "the voice of hizbollah," or say that it's all propaganda."

Now, for the benefit of all those people who don't have the time to read our endless discussions, I would like to clarify that I have only called the BBC "the voice of Hezbollah" when I was replying to a (very, very biased) article of the BBC that was posted in the discussion. I have already replied to the rest of the stuff in that quote.

"I consider both sides my friend. I used to be very bias about the situation, but after talking to people, and reading some books, I know being bias doesn't get you anywhere, and until you can admit you are bias, than don't bother defending Israel, because I can't tell whether or not your b.s.-ing, or really talking from some real sources."

Yeah, I can imagine what books you have read and what kind of news sources you rely on for your information. Remember the time when you were the one of only two members who heard the rumour that Jewish employees of the WTC were warned not to come to work on the 9/11? Do you subscribe to any Lebanese newspapers? A frequent visitor of hezbollah.com (or whatever their site is), perhaps?

"You have this very nice way of twisting our ideas and expressions, tbar. For one thing, I have NEVER backed out from a post."

Yeah, you keep saying that you'll back out, but you keep coming back.

"So stop being nasty and trying to make me look bad because you always have the same arguments. And that post about not responding to rediculous posts, that was intended for Toda, his posts ARE too rediculous to respond to, because he is so racist."

You are trying to make other people look bad. You are the one with the same basic argument. And why the hell are you getting Toda involved? He didn't even respond to this thread! You are trying to make him look bad. Whatever your problem with him is, email him, or discuss it with him openly if and when he decides to enter this thread.


Muslim extrimists don't attack western Europe because its a huge source of money for them. Also, the support they get from them in the UN is a sure defense against extrimists. Just give them what they want and then some, and you won't get hurt.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Klaus
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 9:25 am

Ahem...

If I may interrupt you in your respective trenches...

has anyone of you actually bothered to read the initial article? I´ve found no indication of that, so far...

FSPilot747 and TBar220, you´re both looking a little silly in that childish mud fight...  Wink/being sarcastic

I can´t for the life of me understand why there´s no peace in the middle east yet, with all the people so mature and devoted to the future...
 
fspilot747
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RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 10:07 am

LY744: There you go again, calling every source that defends palestinians bias. For your information, the book was written by a jew from Israel. I'll get the title for you when I go to school.

Klaus: I agree with you, however whenEVER I say something like that, I get accused of "backing out of a post." :::sigh:::, anyways.

Whistler: I'M getting weird?
"Okay FSPilot, now you are just getting wierd. You see a picture and make up a whole lie to go with it. How do you know those aren't Israeli kids killed in a terrorist attack against a school or day care?"

-because israeli women don't wear scarfs, and israeli children aren't brown.

kind regards,
FSPilot747
 
go canada!
Posts: 2886
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Mon Oct 01, 2001 8:17 pm

Hepkat, in posts on the wtc attacks and the aftermarth you said the usa must get rid of the cause of terrorism, you have inferred, directly or indirectly to israel.

i posted this reply to another thread in which you had posted, id appericate a response so we can clarify who you feel is to blame for islamic terror:

Topic: RE: How To Fight Against Muslim Fundamentalism?

Username: Go Canada!
Posted 09-29-01 14:39 and read 13 times.
"I'm saying, get rid of the cause, and you'll get rid of the unpleasant effect. End of argument" (thats your post hepkat)

the cause?and what would that be?the haterd towards the usa? and why the haterd, because of israel?
so are you saying we should get rid of america

or are you saying we sould get rid of israel?

or are you saying we should bomb all terrorists to kingdom come?

or are you saying we should get rid of all muslims?

what are you saying hepkat, because for an historian you aret making yourself clear.

so in your view, what is the cause of middle eastern terrorism, nutcases distorting a peaceful faith as an excuse to kill or the state of israel?
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

FSPilot747

Tue Oct 02, 2001 12:27 am

FSPilot747: I agree with you, however whenEVER I say something like that, I get accused of "backing out of a post." :::sigh:::, anyways.

The trouble is neither of you seems to be able to de-escalate in the discussion.

My personal opinion is that a solution to this conflict would necessarily need people on both sides recognizing the grief and the troubles of the other side. I´ve heard of very few individuals who are doing that, but it´s not enough, yet.

Both muslim palestinians and jewish israelis deserve respect and a place to live in peace. And both sides have failed miserably to demonstrate they know how to handle this. Outside help seems to be essential. And the world can´t afford to keep out of it in the long run.
 
Guest

RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Tue Oct 02, 2001 12:37 am

"And that post about not responding to rediculous posts, that was intended for Toda, his posts ARE too rediculous to respond to, because he is so racist."

"too rediculous to respond to, because he is so racist"

ha ha, if you're speaking of "too ridiculous" FSPilot747...you're right, I shouldn't answer this time.

BTW, my name is "toda,Reisinger"...
 
fspilot747
Posts: 3455
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 1999 2:58 am

RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:19 am

Toda: Do you want me to post some examples of your obvious hostile attitude towards islam?

Klaus: Again, I completely agree with you.

kind regards,
FSPilot747
 
Guest

RE: Roots Of Middle East Grievances

Tue Oct 02, 2001 4:01 pm

I have a very "hostile attitude towards Islamic FUNDAMENTALISM". But if you want to associate both into one single subject, let me tell you that by doing so YOU are harming Islam as a whole.

btw, "FSPilot: Do you want me to post some examples of your obvious hostile attitude towards Israel?"...

"Both muslim palestinians and jewish israelis deserve respect and a place to live in peace. And both sides have failed miserably to demonstrate they know how to handle this."
- Just to remember: in the summer of the year 2000, the Barak gvt has offered the Palestinians "respect and a place to live in peace": Israel had met every Palestinian demands but one: the Barak gvt agreed to give the Palestinians quite ALL the post-1967 territories, + some parts of the Negev, as well as sovereignity over the mosques and Arab neighborhoods in east Jerusalem. The only thing Barak refused was the dismantlement of the State of Israel...
What was the Palestinian answer? A refusal, a categorical refusal; Arafat even refused to negotiate these proposals. Yes, he has "failed miserably to demonstrate" he's ready to co-exist with Israel. The Palestinians' objectives are very clear, and they don't even hide them (see for instance F. Husseini's interview of last summer): the pure and simple annihilation of the State of Israel. The "right of return" is a more elegant way to say "the end of the Zionist entity": the 4 or 5 millions people Arafat wants to settle IN Israel wouldn't want to live in a Jewish State, in a State they have been taught to hate... Is there any solution that could be more illogical?!
And where should then be the "place to live in peace" for the Israelis?
In the sea? Or in heaven...

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