tsully
Posts: 680
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Breaking News From CNN.com

Tue Oct 09, 2001 3:39 pm

BREAKING NEWS from CNN.com

-- Four U.N. employees killed in airstrike east of Kabul, Afghanistan, CNN has learned.


That's all CNN knows as of now...


-tsully
I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Tue Oct 09, 2001 4:01 pm

 Sad  Sad  Sad Grrrrr
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Tue Oct 09, 2001 4:23 pm

Oops.

Better get used to it guys. War is hell.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Tue Oct 09, 2001 4:53 pm

Hey guys...

It's a war....What do you expect?
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Twotterwrench
Posts: 1087
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Tue Oct 09, 2001 5:09 pm

I am supposed to be saddened by this??? To me, the UN is as great a threat to our country as bin Laden is.
 
sudden
Posts: 3934
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Tue Oct 09, 2001 5:12 pm

Come on Twotterwrench.......
The UN is supporting the US in this. If they can solve this together, I see that as a big step in the right direction.

Also....
how long was it since you asked someone to "pick up the soap from the shower floor?"
When in doubt, flat out!
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Tue Oct 09, 2001 5:16 pm

What are you on Twotter? The UN is a higher authority than the US - without it you would be f*cked. Have a little compassion and keep your redneck tendencies to yourself.  Angry
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Twotterwrench
Posts: 1087
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Tue Oct 09, 2001 5:18 pm

One show of support does not make up for 40 years of abuse. Americans are being stripped of their property rights through the man and the biosphere project and the national rivers heritage act. One weak pathetic article 5 that has no true might behind does not make up for what they have done to our country so far. Nothing they can do will make up for it, unless they leave our country forever. Then I will forgive.

What is your deal with the homo references? Just about anyone in here will tell you I am happily married (to a woman) with 3 beautiful kids.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Tue Oct 09, 2001 5:18 pm

I belive that is the point Ryanb741. The UN should not be a higher authority then the US.

End of story.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3256
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Tue Oct 09, 2001 5:24 pm

The US does make use of the UN.
Attamottamotta!
 
Twotterwrench
Posts: 1087
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Tue Oct 09, 2001 5:25 pm

The UN has no authority in the US whatsoever. In fact, they technically have no authority anywhere. It is an arbitrary and advisory group with no enforcement powers by it's own charter. Any "authority" granted to the UN by "executive order" is unconstitutional and therefore not of any consequence to the US. You need to go back to civics class, ryan.
 
Ikarus
Posts: 3391
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Tue Oct 09, 2001 5:28 pm

Well, actually, the UN should be higher than the US. It is short-sighted to have a government over X people as highest authority in their world. Therefore, a supra-governmental body, which is made up of representatives of (preferably) all governments is a good idea. It covers more people in the world and its purpose is to ensure some form of peacefulness, and prevent atrocities. It's just the efficiency of that body that still needs work done. The League of nations failed because it was too weak. The UN urgently needs an upgrade in power, too.... and maybe the veto right should be abolished.

Regards

Ikarus
 
Twotterwrench
Posts: 1087
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Tue Oct 09, 2001 5:31 pm

That is exactly the point, ikarus. To sacrafic power to the UN is to sacrafice your nations sovreignty. I am not willing to do this, especially since we Americans have it so much better than most of the rest of the world. What in the hell would be our motivation to lower ourselves to that level? We do fine as a nation unto ourselves and this whole New World Order thing is a bunch of shit. You guys can have your UN. I don't need it.
 
ryanb741
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Tue Oct 09, 2001 5:54 pm

So let me get this straight. The US wants the whole world to join a coalition with it but it doesn't want to yield any authority to other organisations. Smacks of imperialism to me, and guarantees that some Americans haven't learned from the last month. The US is not bigger than the rest of the World. If the US and Israel had followed UN directives in the middle east then maybe 6000 of your compatriots wouldn't be ashes at the moment.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Tue Oct 09, 2001 5:54 pm

Ikarus,

While I am not against the concept of the UN as such, I am very opposed to the way it is run, and am opposed to giving the UN any more power than what it actually has.

Most importantly, it is not a democratic, or even representational system. The UN ambassadors are all political appointees, who blew the right people in their government to get a nice cushy job with little responsibility, pay no taxes, get to live in Geneva or New York, with all expenses paid, servants etc. The UN budget goes mostly to these guy's expense accounts, not to people around the world who need it.

FACT: In an official study done a few years ago, which got leaked to the press, over 97% of the World Health Organization's budget is spent right here in Geneva. Only 3% gets spent supplying things like vaccinations and such programs in needy countries, which supposedly is the reason for the WHO's existance. A friend of mine who has worked for some 12 years for the WHO says that nothing has changed.

The UN is a gigantic pork-barrel project existing to provide bureaucrats nice cushy jobs. It needs to made accountable, and the representatives should be elected by the peoples they are supposed to represent.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
sudden
Posts: 3934
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Tue Oct 09, 2001 6:18 pm

Twotterwrench!
Just tryed to joke with you a little. Just as you joke with me. I believe you when you say that you are married.
When in doubt, flat out!
 
Twotterwrench
Posts: 1087
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2001 5:57 pm

RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Wed Oct 10, 2001 1:55 am

No prob, sudden.. just making sure it all stays friendly...I can certainly take a joke as long as I get it... Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
Guest

RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Wed Oct 10, 2001 5:04 am

Twotterwrench - I am disgusted. Four people are dead and you show that arragance. You make me angry. Frankly if you convey the average American 36 - 45 then I would take the protestors in Quetta's advice:

THINK why you are hated all over the world.
 
airmale
Posts: 7125
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Wed Oct 10, 2001 5:19 am

Twattywretch-Bad times can also come upon America, so dont be so smug, good times need not last forever sas you may know if you have studied history Smile
.....up there with the best!
 
tbar220
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Wed Oct 10, 2001 6:16 am

If the US and Israel had followed UN directives in the middle east then maybe 6000 of your compatriots wouldn't be ashes at the moment.


That was low...I just read that and kind of got this sick feeling in my stomach. One, do not blame the United States for what happened, and two, do not try to lessen what happened in NY by just stating what is so "obviously true" so matter-of-factly. I don't care what your point behind that comment was, I personally was upset by it.
NO URLS in signature
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Wed Oct 10, 2001 6:32 am

Tbar220 - I am really sorry for the way those words came out - I didn't mean it to cause offence and I apologise unreservedly for that. I will try and curb my temper. I was just really angry at Twotter's assertion that the UN deaths counted for nothing.

Once again, sorry to anybody who I offended. I promise I didn't mean it to come out like that.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
airbus380
Posts: 1575
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Wed Oct 10, 2001 6:45 am

I sympathize for the loss...hey but war is war.
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Wed Oct 10, 2001 7:24 am

Twotter.

Please can you do us all a favour and have a vasectomy.

Thanks
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
The747Man
Posts: 361
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Wed Oct 10, 2001 7:24 am

It's war.
 
tsully
Posts: 680
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 5:02 pm

RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Wed Oct 10, 2001 7:24 am

Hey guys,

I just posted this topic as it was breaking news at the time.

I know death occurs as a result of war, and no, I wasn't expecting you to be surprised or anything. I wasn't seeking to get a response at all. I was merely presenting the news.

And for the record, I am not a fan of the UN, either. I actually resent the organization, but that is beside the point.

Four UN workers died as a result of the attacks, and that is the way it goes with war.



I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.
 
Ikarus
Posts: 3391
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:18 pm

RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Wed Oct 10, 2001 7:38 am

"...especially since we Americans have it so much better than most of the rest of the world. What in the hell would be our motivation to lower ourselves to that level?..."

Can anyone say xenophobia? Lower yourself to the level of the rest of the world? Mmmh. I could swear that "we're better than anyone else" attitude came up somewhere before, where was it? Oh. Right. Germany, 1933-45....

And if you do not care about anyone else but yourself, find a nice little iglu in the Antarctic or maybe a mudhole in Sibiria to crawl into. That's about the only places where someone can live without interaction with the outside world...

Dismissing the ideas behind the UN is about as great an act of ignorance as a 13th century peasant dismissing the concept of democracy. The UN maybe need to reshape, restructure and redefine themselves. But the concept behind them is still sound. BTW: I'm pretty sure the UN, a descendant of the League of Nations, was an American idea. Not "eurotrash". Which American president during WW1 conceived it again? I forgot who...

Anyway. It's about time that Twotterwrench guy gets removed. We've had enough Nazi trash in here (busdriver, etc etc etc) - why is someone referring to Europeans as Eurotrash and to Muslims / Arabs as towelheads still here?

Now about the reaction to the original post: I think it would be nice if someone remembered that whoever the 4 casualties were, they were surely not some rich corrupt diplomats, but the kind of people who worked hard under dangerous circumstances for their idealistic beliefs. Now idealism is a naive thing anyway, and not very efficient at achieving anything. But I think that the loss of idealists still is tragic, and I think anyone enjoying their deaths must be among the lowest scum on the planet.

Regards

Ikarus
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Wed Oct 10, 2001 7:40 am

Hey ryan, why don't you lick my ball sack you pinko commie coward...

Mate, you'd have to find your balls first  Big grin

I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6409
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Wed Oct 10, 2001 7:46 am

Well guys, all this UN discussion is trivial. The UN is what its member countries put into it. Garbish in, garbish out, and visa versa.

But those four UN workers were doing a job cleaning the country from millions of land mines which every day kill a hundred innoscent children - and also animals to keep the hungry children alive. I think nobody can have anything against that job being done.

But do you believe that those UN workers were not killed by the Taliban? Well, just speculating. Can you prove it wrong?

But anyway, it is beyond me why the hell those UN workers didn't get out of the country weeks ago. They had to know that staying was next to suiside. In addition it was quite easy for them to figure out that when war came then they were a great subject for terrorist propaganda, and better so dead than alive.

Regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Twotterwrench
Posts: 1087
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Wed Oct 10, 2001 7:56 am

Gee, ikarus, america bashing makes one intelligent, but an american fighting back, even if he may use a derogatory term, means one should be banned? Strange way of looking at things me thinks. I don't like the UN... so what? I don't care what the rest of the world thinks of me or my country... so what? I live my small life in my small part of the world and what I think or do really doesn't affect you... again, so what? In the same manner that you live your small life in your small world...The great thing about living in America, or even better, in Alaska, is that what you and people like you think don't make a good god damn bit of difference in how I live my daily life. Sure, I love to irritate you, watching you spout the one big word you know (xenophobe...lol) makes me laugh. I am not afraid of any other race or religion or creed.. I just don't care what they think.. about anything. That hardly qualifies me as a xenophobe. Now, you can get as mad as you want at me, but I will not stop posting my opinions. I have as much right to them as you do to yours. My advice would be that you learn to laugh at me like I laugh at you and all the others like you in here. You make good arguments, ikarus, and they are often well supported, but that doesn't make your opinion right for everyone. Just as mine is obviously not right for you.
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Wed Oct 10, 2001 7:57 am

Those UN workers were Afghans, so that is why they didn't leave the country.

Also, why should aid workers stop their devoted work. Those people are the bravest people of all - risking their own lives to help those less fortunate. May they rest in peace.....
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
airmale
Posts: 7125
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Wed Oct 10, 2001 7:58 am

The U.N workers were actually Afghans who were working for an NGO under the U.N umbrella, four of them and all Muslims so you all can relax now Smile
.....up there with the best!
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6409
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Wed Oct 10, 2001 8:39 am

Thanks Ryanb741 and Airmale, for the info, I simply didn't know their nationality.

The papers here are of course devoted to the Milan tragedy yesterday morning, and the Afghan War has consequently already almost disappeared from the press. Had it been last week, then four killed UN workers might have cleaned the cover pages, but now it became one and a half line on page 8. Everything is relative.

The fact that they were Afghani people explains why they were still in the country. But no more I think. They represented an organisation which approved a resolution against the Taliban. So how could they be safe? And BTW, how many hundred thousand Afghanis were killed by Afghanis over the last 25 years? How many more would have been killed if not millions had fled to all surrounding neighbour countries? - and even thousands all way to my cold country so close to the North Pole.

Seen in perspective, what is the real reason why we hear about exactly these four undoubtly great men? I just wonder. Is it some CNN effect? Were there some "great" photos to put into the gaps between the commercials?

Excuse me if it sounds stupid, but I haven't found much time to watch TV lately.

Regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
EGGD
Posts: 11880
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RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Wed Oct 10, 2001 8:48 am

Guys, the point is 4 people who were in Afghanistan to help (i think) died, does it matter about the UN and the US, does this topic have anything to do with the supremacy of the US or the UN?

Do i even care?

Do i even understand?

No

Dan
 
Guest

RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Wed Oct 10, 2001 9:57 am

7,000 lives were lost in the attacks. Most were American, many were British, and one or two people from nearly every developed country in the world dies as well.

Nearly ever country in the world has been affected by this, directly or indirectly. Everyone suffers one form of loss or another.

The global economy has been affected, businesses have collapsed, while those responsible laugh and mock the Free World.

Let's not bicker guys. Clearly, the deaths of four UN workers are a sad loss, but the action we are taking in Afghanistan an other areas to eliminate terrorism is a justified operation for the promotion of safety of innicent people.

Innocent lives will be lost in the action, yes. But in the end a great favor will have been done for the world. People will be safe once more. It's a long raod yet we will follow it, and destroy as much evil as we can.

We are all united, let's not fight with each other because we all know that the reward will be incredible.

Let's not bring petty issues into this, let's focus on the big problem.

Aloha 737-200!!  Wink/being sarcastic
 
Ikarus
Posts: 3391
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:18 pm

RE: Twotterwrench

Wed Oct 10, 2001 7:05 pm

America bashing is intelligent? I don't think so. As a matter of fact, I'm rather pro-American usually - it is only when Americans express nationalism that I differ strongly with their viewpoints. (I disagree strongly with any expression of nationalism - it just happens to be the case that in these forums, Americans and Australians seem to be the most nationalistic of the users) About the derogatory terms - that is dragging a discussion to lower levels, and hence it is less civilized.

Now about xenophobia: You yourself expressed that if you were on a plane with a "towelhead" it would be either him or you - one would have to get out. Sounds to me like you're pretty damn afraid of Arabs.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. No one can prevent people from thinking what they want. But where I come from nationalism and superiorism is discouraged from being expressed, people who do it are often laughed at for their primitive simplicity - at least by me. Expressing national socialist opinions publicly is outright illegal, and that is good. Insults are illegal, too. So insulting Europeans as "Eurotrash" or Arabs as "towelheads" could - if taken to court - end in a fine. Which is why seeing people exclaim these things publicly on the web is rather odd and downright infuriating to me. Such opinions should be suppressed in a proper civilized society. They are not even opinions - they are just prejudices, and prejudices have no right to exist in my opinion.

Regards

Ikarus
 
carmy
Posts: 590
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 12:00 am

RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Wed Oct 10, 2001 7:28 pm

Everyone seems to be going over the rhetoric again and again. Just like CNN and the rest of the american media, no one seems to be interested in WHY this entire affair started. WHY do people hate the US so much that they can actually bomb two buildings and kill thousands of people. Maybe the US should examine its own foreign policy and realise that their foreign policy towards many parts of the world was the reason for this bomb blast. When you think about it, how many Muslims have been killed because of American-led wars and American policies?

Think of how many Iraqis were killed by the Americans in the Gulf War. And the Americans weren't there to save Kuwait. If Iraq had invaded Kuwait, they would have controlled a disproportionate percentage of the world's oil supply. The US had intervened because their own strategic interests in that part of the world was threatened. If the US is so interested in keeping world peace and democracy, why didn't they lift a finger to help when East Timor was being invaded by Indonesia in the 1970s? Why didn't they help Afghanistan re-build their country after the Soviet pull out in 1989? If the Americans had spent just one-tenth of the money they are spending on the war now on humanitarian aid, Afghanistan probably wouldn't be in the mess it is today and the WTC attack would never have happened. The US is only interested in protecting its own interests.

Yes I'm sure it's a war, but will killing innocent Afghans solve the problem? I certainly don't think so. If the US is the civilised nation they always claim to be, why didn't they offer food aid before? Maybe if the Afghans were led to see what the developed world is like, they would overthrow the Taleban themselves. Most Afghans probably don't even know why they're being attacked anyway. And in any case, the US didn't give a toot about Afghanistan until this attack. They didn't bother about the Northen Alliance or anyone else there. Suddenly, the Northen Alliance, Afghanistan's ex-King, and even Iran, are America's new found best friends. I prefer to see it like a marriage of convenience. Like how Josef Stalin signed a pact of non-violence with Hitler during WW2.

And no, I'm not Muslim, Afghan, Arab.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Wed Oct 10, 2001 9:02 pm

Oh, stop it about Iraq. The UN mandated the liberation of Kuwait, but did not have the foresight to allow the coalition to go after Saddam. The U.S. wanted to go to Baghdad to force an end to the crisis - the UN held them back, so you can't say that the UN is a US puppet either. The UN’s desire to avoid just a few days of conflict (the time to get to Baghdad) was a direct cause of the decade of suffering the Iraqi people have endured. Blame the UN, not the US.

The WTC attack was targeted at civilians. There is absolutely no excuse for that. I can almost understand an attack on a military base, or even the Pentagon (as part of military command and control, it is a legitimate target). But the WTC is way out of bounds, so don't even try to make excuses for it.

Why is it that people like you blame the US for all their problems, and blame the US again if they don't give particular attention to a problem. Did the US have a responsibility to help the Afghans rebuild after the Soviet pullout? No. It would have been nice of them, and in hindsight it might have avoided some problems (although surely some people like Bin Ladin would have resented it as well), but there certainly was no responsibility.

The U.S. is the country the world loves to hate. They are cursed and attacked whatever they do, whether it is minding their own business or trying to help other people.

Is killing innocent Afghans the answer? Of course not. Killing guilty Afghans sounds good however. Unfortunately, they are cowards, like all terrorists, and like to hide behind the innocent. If there is no other way to get to the guilty except through the innocent, well, that's war. Name me a single war where the winner did not shy away from unpleasant decisions like this. If the U.S. or any other combatant, past, future or present, is ordered to restrict casualties to combatants only, they can consider the war lost and might as well pack up and go home.

The key is "what is the target". If the target is a legitimate target (such as a terrorist, or a training camp, or a military asset) and innocent people are nearby, that is collateral damage - unfortunate, but necessary. If the target is purely civilian, with no military or offensive value (such as the WTC) then innocent people killed in such an attack are not collateral damage, but the intended victims of a murderous act. So far, as far as I know, any non-combatants killed in the raids these past few days were hit by weapons targeting legitimate targets. Plus the fact that there were clear warnings given for weeks, unlike the people working in Manhattan who fully expected to come home for dinner on the evening of Sept. 11th.

As to your question as to why the U.S. did not offer food aid before. Where have you been? Afghanistan has not been able to feed its own population for years (not that the Taliban have lifted a finger to do anything about it). The population of Afghanistan has been fed by the international organizations, prima-fascia, but where do you think all that money and food come from - Syria? The U.S. has been sending food there in huge amounts for free for years.

Forming up a marriage of convenience with certain parties has its advantages. The U.S. and G.B. allied themselves with Stalin to beat Hitler, and that was a good thing. We can only hope that such marriages bear good fruit - we are not omniscient.

FACT: Bin Ladin masterminded the Sept. 11th attacks (he basically admitted to it yesterday). FACT: The de facto Taliban Government of Afghanistan is actively supporting him. FACT: The people of Afghanistan are totally cowed by the Taliban, and they need outside help to overthrow them. FACT: The Taliban thinks nothing of the lives of Afghans, they said yesterday that they are willing to lose 2 million lives in resisting. As the number of active Taliban members is much lower than this, this indicates to me that they intend to use their own population as human shields (Who knows, they may have killed a few of the "bombing casualties" themselves). FACT: Just as in the Gulf War, bombing raids are just to soften up, not actually change things on the ground. Ground troops are needed for this. QUESTION: Where will those ground troops come from?

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
docpepz
Posts: 1706
Joined: Thu May 24, 2001 8:20 pm

RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Wed Oct 10, 2001 10:47 pm

Carmy was not blaming the US for his problems. He was just stating a point of view.

Anyway The US is at liberty to help who they want, where and when. However they must have a consistent foreign policy. Foreign policy for the past decade, since the fall of the berlin wall, has been little more than "volunteer work". Their current unilateralist approach in world affairs fuels a lot of negative sentiments against them (though not from me personally since they have done nothing to me nor my country)

Anyway I come from, Singapore, is one of the region's staunchest US allies. We are a predominantly Chinese nation surrounded by Muslim countries which makes us even more vulnerable to all this nonsense.

Singapore is as far away from the US as one can get, so these events didn't really affect me directly, though it utterly shocked the h*ll out of me. It'll be nice to live in a world with no war and hatred, but I guess that's not possible.

Here is an interesting note: More Muslims were killed by Western CHristian powers in the 1800s than Christians killed by Muslims in all preceding centuries.

And I'm not Muslim, neither am I Arab nor Middle Eastern. I am a Catholic Singaporean.
 
carmy
Posts: 590
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 12:00 am

RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Thu Oct 11, 2001 12:23 am

The UN is responsible for the suffering of the Iraqi people? That's something very new. Do you remember that the US and GB are the only two members of the Security Council which still supports sanctions against Iraq?

No excuses for the WTC attack. Shouldn't have happened, but it has. In that case, shouldn't Americans examine what drove these people to do what they did? Why did these people destroy the WTC? But no, the American media is more interested in going through the rhetoric than finding out why it had happened.

I don't blame the US for everything that happens. The US wants to be the world's policeman, peacemaker, or whatever. If they wish to assume this role, shouldn't every single country be treated equally? But no, they only interfere when their own interests are threatened. I totally agree that the US did not need to help the Afghans. In that case, the same principle should apply to all other countries. Shouldn't they stop bothering about China's human rights record as well? After all, I don't the Chinese were exactly torturing or killing any Americans.

So you are of the opinion that war is the answer to this problem? The USSR for example, did not collapse because the US had gone in and bombed the Red Square. On the contrary, the Russians themselves realised what a screwed up administration they had and overthrew the Communists themselves. In this case, most Afghans haven't got the foggiest idea why the Americans are bombing them. As far as they're concerned, the Americans are killing their children and destroying their livelihoods.

Just a little question here. Why is it that up until September 11th, the US wasn't the least bit interested in what the Taleban was doing? And suddenly, they've become Afghanistan's kights in shining armour. They're going to be the great kinght who'll save the damesel in distress and install the Northern Alliance as the new government. I remember reading somewhere that the Taleban is actually quite popular with the Afghans because they have managed to maintain peace and stability in the country. A growing number of Afghans, however, are getting more concerned about the Taleban's shift towards extremism. And just abit of added information, the Taleban was extremely successful in getting rid of all of Afghanistan's opium growing fields. They simply went into the farms, burnt the plants and killed the farmers. Abit cruel yes, but almost every country executes drug traffickers anyway. So not much of a difference there.

If the US's only contribution to Afghanistan is through the UN, then i suspect that yes, Syria does contribute to the UN effort towards Afghanistan as well. After all, Syria is a member of the UN's general assembly.

I'm sure the alliance with Stalin bore good fruit. The iron curtain kept millions of people under the shroud of communism.

And just a final point about the two million people. The Taleban may not have a membership of two million, but does everyone who vote Republican immediately become a member of the party? They may support something, but you don't have to join the party do you. And I do remember seeing lots of fanatics screaming about how they're willing to defend Afghanistan against their aggressors.

Kelvin
 
Ikarus
Posts: 3391
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:18 pm

RE: Carmy

Thu Oct 11, 2001 12:51 am

Carmy, with all due respect, but you seem to be ill-informed on many counts. The Soviet Union did not collapse because people saw what a flawed regime it was - they had either seen it a lot earlier or never at all. It failed because it literally went bankrupt. It could not afford all the arms races, nuclear races, space races and wars (Afghanistan was their Vietnam, it is said) based on a planned economy. Hell, even a capitalist economy like the USA choked quite hard on the Vietnam War. All America had to do was to wait for 50 years or so until the less efficient system ran out of money.
As Afghanistan is already poor and bankrupt, I do not see how waiting can help to change the situation there.

Secondly, the US media like to show their people what a good world policeman the USA is. That is complete BS of course. Just propaganda to justify doing what every nation on earth does: Acting in their own interest. The USA have never been and will never be world policemen. They just have a foreign policy aimed at their own benefit. Period.

Now about that sh*tty Northern Alliance. Well, I don't think they're the ideal solution. Making a minority population into the ruling power of a country? Will never work. According to the Economist, a complicated setup with the (exiled) King of Afghanistan supporting a government that may or may not involve the Northern Alliance is more likely. Or maybe America will just crash Afghanistan back into complete turmoil, Zaire/Congo/whatever style. Their interest is not the Taliban or the people of Afghanistan. Their interest is terrorists. And as long as the Taliban hide and help terrorists, they are likely to go under with them.

About the popularity of the Taliban: Originally, what was welcomed was that after years and years of continuous civil war, one fraction had come out victoriously, and suddenly it was possible to have a small amount of stability and everyday life. What was most certainly not welcomed by all people was the strict and atrocious way women and people are suppressed. Now that a minimum of stability is there, you will probably find that a lot of people in Afghanistan are not fond of the Taliban at all. Who would want a bunch of retarded illiterate ultra-extremist peasants for government anyway?

Regards

Ikarus
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Thu Oct 11, 2001 1:03 am

Carmy, you're sure stupid. Why didn't we care as much before September 11th? Well, maybe that's because on September 11th, a group of people that are supported by, and protected by the Taliban, killed 6000 people in the United States, you jackass. Can't you figure that out?

You sit here and condemn the US, and scold it, and tell us how bad you are, yet you only make fleeting reference to the events of September 11th, as if they don't matter one goddamned bit. The best you can say is "no excuse" for it. That's the best you can do? 6000 people, mostly Americans are murdered, and the best you can say, is basically "shouldn't have happened, but, oh, well, it did"? And then you cry and moan and bitch because a few Afghans have died?

What kind of lunatic are you?
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Thu Oct 11, 2001 3:34 am

The UN is responsible for the suffering of the Iraqi people? That's something very new. Do you remember that the US and GB are the only two members of the Security Council which still supports sanctions against Iraq?

I told you. If we had taken Baghdad, threw out Saddam, and installed a provisional government under the auspices of the UN or the Arab League, which was what the US (and I believe Great Britain) wanted to do but were vetoed by the rest of the UN, than there would have been no more trade sanctions for the past 10 years, and Iraq would have acquired a legitamate government shortly afterwards through elections. I don't think I can be any more explicit.

No excuses for the WTC attack. Shouldn't have happened, but it has. In that case, shouldn't Americans examine what drove these people to do what they did?

Why should the U.S. care WHY it was done. Such acts are the result of deranged minds, so trying to figure out the logic to their actions is pointless mental masturbation. The fact that it was done should be enough to justify making sure that whoever did it is not allowed to do it again (death tends to be a good cure for this).

If they wish to assume this role, shouldn't every single country be treated equally? But no, they only interfere when their own interests are threatened.

They did not want the role - it's been pushed on them time and again. Every time the U.S. turned isolationist, world events ended up dragging the U.S. into a major war. As far as looking after the U.S.'s own interests, that's quite normal. Tell me what country in the world does not act primarily out of their own interest above all. In fact, name a single country which has done more for the rest of the world than the US.

As for the rest of your post:

- The U.S. should not NEED to care what comes after the Taliban. That's not their problem. All they need is a government that does not support terrorists going halfway across the world to strike at the U.S. Anything the U.S. does in addition to this is a gift, and I hope the locals will be grateful for it (as the Germans ended up being).

Don't compare Syria's contribution to the U.S.'s donations. That's just silly.

And just a final point about the two million people. The Taleban may not have a membership of two million, but does everyone who vote Republican immediately become a member of the party? They may support something, but you don't have to join the party do you. And I do remember seeing lots of fanatics screaming about how they're willing to defend Afghanistan against their aggressors.

Are you suggesting that Afghans voted for the Taliban?

The protests have been far, far smaller than feared. In indonesia, for example, they called for a million people to gather and storm the U.S. embassy. Only a few hundred showed up, in the world's biggest muslim population. Of course they were quite loud, and by putting cameras on the street, CNN can make it look like the whole country is in flames.

Cheers,

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6409
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Thu Oct 11, 2001 4:56 am

The suffering in Iraq can of course only be blamed on Iraq itself.

Iraq has to obey to the very clever decision, that UN controllers shall check out the country for mass destruction weapons, that's all.

Iraq is an evil country, that's a simple and proven fact. Conquered a neighbour country, and gassed well over a hundred thousand of its own cityzens, spread Scud missiles all over. Tell me, what else can a country do in order to earn the label "evil"?

And today their leaders do not co-operate in distributing emergency aid to its own suffering people. It can't be worse.

And it's a great shame on the UN that they did not allow the same fate on the Iraqi regime as for instance the nazi regime in 1945. Millions of Iraqi people have suffered badly from that.

Lifting the sanctions will probably change the way of suffering in parts of Iraq. But only one thing can end suffering, elimination of their present regime.

The purpose of the sanctions is of course that they may advance the final elimination of the regime. It may sound optimistic today, but it is the best thing which can be done at present.

Unless a link is found between bin Laden and Saddam Hussain. In that case GWB has the right to wipe him out. If I was American, then I would say that it's his duty.

Regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
docpepz
Posts: 1706
Joined: Thu May 24, 2001 8:20 pm

RE: Breaking News From CNN.com

Thu Oct 11, 2001 4:17 pm

When something like this happens, people on all sides fail to be rational. Anyway, it's impossible for any country who has gone through what America has in the past month to actually have a rational, peaceful response to this. I mean, if someone came into your home and massacared your entire family, would you just sit there and try to make peace with the murderer, or would you plot revenge? Of course you'd do the latter. And all your friends would understand PERFECTLY WELL why you chose to do so.

For example, I doubt Afghanistan had any air defence to begin with. I'm sure the US could have qutie safely continued reconaissance flights over Afghanistan without destroying 31 of their air bases, most of which are probably non-operational anyway. Or even if they were, they would be no match for the sophistication of US military technology.

But the US had to show the world that it was doing something. I mean, we have everyone crying for blood now. Bush couldn't just sit back there and offer to negotiate etc, when the entire American people were screaming for revenge.

I think the strikes for the past 3 days have been symbolic more than anything else. America had to have some kind of forceful response to last month's devastating attacks. And they did. They may not have achieved much, but they have been crucial to soothe the American people. In a way, it has had a therapeutic effect on the people. The symbolism in the attacks were striking. For example, "FDNY" and "NYPD" were written on the missiles launched on Afghansitan to commemorate the brave souls who died in the line of duty. The therapeutic effect it had on the American population must have been great.

Where I'm based, Singapore, we are about as far from the USA you can get. In a way, we're not feeling as much of the euphoria you guys in other parts of the world are feeling, being much closer to the US. Aside from the fact our local papers report NOTHING but the counterstrike against terrorism, since nothing ever happens in Singapore to begin with, and this is probably a Singaporean journalist's dream.

Singapore was one of the first countries to convey its sympathies to President Bush on September 11. We also open our bases to American use, and there is always one squadron of US planes in Singapore at any point in time. The past few weeks have seen an increased number of US planes and ships passing through. It is also one of the few Asian countries to issue a statement fully supporitng US action against Afghanistan. I don't know if that pissed off our Muslim neighbours though.

I do not have enough information to actually make a decision on who is right and who is wrong and who went wrong where and when and what should be done, and thus I shall not. But I can wholeheartedly affirm that killing innocent people is wrong. What happened last month was a felony of the highest order. One could blame the US and say that their unilateralist approach in world affairs caused this, but those innocent people in the WTC did nothing do deserve such a death.

Just my two cents worth

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