sebolino
Posts: 3495
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Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 5:49 pm

Could someone tell me in a gentle way why the Americans refuse the critics ?

It 's the only western country I know which calls critics "hatred".
Even the Germans, who are really in a bad situation when talking about the history don't react like that. They just admit the mistakes of their former govt. That's no problem.
It seems that some Americans are genetically uncapable of self-criticism.

(And that does NOT mean that I am Anti-American - which I'm not - , as some of you will try to say).
 
yka
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 5:58 pm

Both Canadians and Americans think they are superior to everybody else and regard other nations(including those in Europe) as backward and primitive. That propaganda is is fed to them at a very young age which results in the "shut up, were better than you" attitude whenever you atempt to critisize them.

 
sebolino
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 6:02 pm

What are you taught in school when you're young about Europe ?

My girlfriend visited the US and she loved it. But one day a guy (at university !!) asked her if we had cars in France.
She nearly collapsed of surprise.
 
KROC
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 8:09 pm

Well do you have cars in France?  Yeah sure
 
KROC
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 8:11 pm

Let me add this. Don't generalize all Americans. Just like you think "all us" Americans are fed how superior we are...you only see the ignorant Americans the one that can make a million people look bad to someone else. Grow up, because you can't assume 280 million people all think the same way. If anything, its thinking like that, that gives certain Americans a feeling of superiority...whether right ot wrong.
 
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Luxair
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 8:52 pm

Kroc you are right to say that not all Americans are like that!
I went a few times to the States and I met a lot of nice people their
who are not thinking in a way "we are better than the rest of
the world" Everytime when they asked me where are you from
and I told them that I am from Europe they where very interested and
the most of them told me that their dream was to travel ones
to Europe. I have to agree, that US foreign politics is bad and was bad in the
past but I hope that they will change for the future!!! But the most of the
people in the states is not always thinking that way of their politicians!

Greetings
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 9:02 pm

I think the problem Sobolino, isn't that Americans are saying "we are better than everyone else". It's the way you and other American-bashers are constantly saying "Americans are worse than everyone else" that rankles so many on here. It makes YOU feel better about yourself, and makes YOU feel superior.
 
Guest

RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 9:04 pm

I'm a European as well as an American, yet I fully condemn people who attack the US. For me, and for many people around the world, the US is more than just another country; it's symbol of freedom and democracy.

Opinion polls prove that most Europeans like and respect the US. Only a few people (with personal problems) enjoy attacking America.

As I've said a million times, I have no problem with people who criticize America's policies. However, if someone compares the country's democratically elected president to Hitler (as someone has done on this board) that is HATRED. Just as I do not tolerate racism, I will not tolerate such anti-American outbursts. Call Bush an idiot if you want, but comparing the US to Nazi Germany is beyond sick.

Tell me, why should a person condemn racism but not anti-Americanism? To me, both are equally repulsive!
 
KROC
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 9:12 pm

"Opinion polls prove that most Europeans like and respect the US. Only a few people (with personal problems) enjoy attacking America".

Well said, and vice versa for Americansattacking Europe. It's only a few.
 
sebolino
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 9:14 pm

You're 100 % right, PHX-LJU, that Anti-Americanism is stupid.
Exactly like anti-communism that your country promoted so much in the past.
 
KROC
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 9:17 pm

Anti-Communism is a way of life that limits a persons basic freedoms. Anti-Americanism is people against Americans just cause they re Americans. The two cannot be compared.
 
Whistler
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 9:18 pm

What the hell are you talking about sebolino???

Sheesh  Insane
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 9:23 pm

LOL, Sobolino!! Anti-Communism wasn't "stupid". It was taken to absurd extremes by many, most notably Senator Joe McCarthy, but the basic anti-communism wasn't "stupid". Again, anti-Communism was born out of the Soviet Union. One of their leaders, Nikita Khruschev once told the US "We will bury you". They were committed to the destruction of Captalism. They were the political anthesis of what the west was about, so being Anti-Communist isn't "stupid", unless, uh, you have sympathies with that failed political philosophy?
 
sebolino
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 9:35 pm

Good, Alpha1, you learned your lesson and you know it.

I'm not communist myself, but still the US showed how little consideration they had for people that don't think in the American way. As far as I know the MacCarthism took place in the USA against US citizens, no ? Oh yeah, these people were a real danger for your great country.
Unfortunately, this forum shows that it's still hard to speak freely in the US and with Americans.

Yes, anti-communism was stupid and is still. As usual you're trying to fight against ideas and not against problems. Kroutchev was sovietic before he was communist. But the efficient propaganda in the US made a clear mix between those.
I dislike communist regimes, but tell me, if it's so bad and evil, why was your president in China last week ?

And you still didn't tell me, Alpha1, why you refuse the critics.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 9:45 pm

I will not "refuse" criticism when it's warrented. In the case of this war, it's ill-considered American-bashing in my view.

And again, you don't get it. Communism was out to destroy the way of life in the US-even in France!! So being anti-communist wasn't stupid-if something is the exact opposite of what you stand for then your against it, hence the word "anti". And yes, McCarthy branded many Americans as communist sympathizers, but his zealotry was born out of this country's struggle against the Soviet Union. He took it waaaay too far, and he ended up paying a bitter price for it-he ended up dying a lonely, destitute alcoholic.

As for President Bush visiting China, don't insult our intelligence, Sobolino. We may not like the way another country thinks, but we still have to deal with them. And, as I've said before, war creates strange bedfellows. It's the old saying: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. That's what China is in this conflict-the enemy of our enemy.
 
KROC
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 9:53 pm

Sebolino. Until you live in the U.S., you cannot accuratly state how "it's still hard to speak freely in the US and with Americans." Again, you are baing your whole opinions on 280 million people on a few people who you argue with on the internet. Your generalizations are absurd.

As for your continued push with Communism...With America, and say Russia (USSR), We were not only against Communism, but we are also against oppression, expansion, and in an arms race. We never opposed the people of a Communist Regime. That is why Bush is in China, or was in China. The relationship we have with China is greatly different than what it was with the USSR. Bush was there also to improve relations not only with China, but with other Asian nations.
 
sebolino
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 10:18 pm

We agree on the last point KROC, it's why I think that should not have been degraded into anti-communism. It was a fight (or small war) against the other superpower. And yes, I know France was in danger, but not from communism, from USSR which was more Stalinist than Communist in the real meaning. Unfortunately a hunt against communists took place (I don't care they were communists, but they were simple men with their own ideas, that's the point).
 
sebolino
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 10:45 pm

By the way, I have a real and serious question (pronounciation).

In English do you say anti in anti-communism with the sound E or with the sound I ?? (I'm serious).

And in anti-social, anti-clerical is it the same ? Is it always the same ? My feeling is that sometimes you say ANT-E and sometimes ANT-I (???????)  Insane

If you answer, I will emigrate to America and will become a good citizen  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
KROC
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 10:55 pm

Ant-E or Ant-I. You will alwyas here both ways. Again on this communism thing. I bel;ieve you are reffering to McCarthy's purge against so called American Communists. By no means was any of that right in any sense fo the word, but again, one man used teh nations fears to power his own views and feelings. Also, how many people did Stalin actually KILL for opposing Communism?
 
sebolino
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 10:59 pm

You're right once again. Stalin was a monster and people were afraid in US and in Europe. But I have the feeling it's not totally over. I think it's still VERY VERY bad to be communist in the US , no ?
 
Guest

RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 11:10 pm

YKA wrote: "Both Canadians and Americans think they are superior to everybody else..."

Be careful with your generalisations. While both countries do have their share of nationalists (as do other countries), both have also had some pretty shrill critics from among their ranks. Ted Byfield, Barbara Amiel and David Frum are among those Canadians who have been sharply critical of Canada. Likewise, Michael Moore, Noam Chomsky and Michael Parenti have assumed the same role in the U.S.

(On a side note, it's interesting to note that both countries' strongest domestic critics and most prolific flag-wavers are at the opposite ends of the political spectrum compared to their equivalents in the other country. For example, Canada's critics tend to congregate on the right, America's on the left.)

 
sebolino
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 11:17 pm

"(On a side note, it's interesting to note that both countries' strongest domestic critics and most prolific flag-wavers are at the opposite ends of the political spectrum compared to their equivalents in the other country. For example, Canada's critics tend to congregate on the right, America's on the left.) "

I don't know for the Canada, but for the US it's probably because it's a generally more right-wing country (where the democrats are considered on the right compare to the French spectrum).
 
KROC
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 11:18 pm

Sebolino: I haven't heard of Communism in the U.S. in a long time. At least not on a serious level. There iwll always be someone who wants to follow it, but it is proven that full fledged communism doesn't work, and Americans know that, and it is generally not of concern.
 
JetService
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 11:24 pm

No one ever answered the question whether France had cars!
"Shaddap you!"
 
sebolino
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 11:25 pm

What I mean, KROC, is that we have a communist party in France, and that's no problem. We even have communist ministers in the government and they don't want to put down the economy.
90 % of the population doesn't share the ideas, but there never were any problems with them.

The main difference with communists and the socialist government is that the communists want a higher minimum salary, they want to forbid the enterprises to fire if they make profit, they want to tax more rich people, and such things ...
 
sebolino
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Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

Jetservice

Mon Oct 22, 2001 11:30 pm

You're right. I have to answer.

No, I have to admit it. We don't have cars. We don't have roads anyway. Luckily we have huge parts of grass where our horses and cows can eat, cos' we use on average 2 horses and 1 cow for each family. At work, we have special rooms for the horses, and we go sometimes at the cafe after work to drink whiskey and see girls dancing. It was called "Saloon" in the US Far West.
We have no cinema, no elevators, no planes, no buildings, no houses like you know them, no Coke factory, and only a few MacDonald's.
Life is a bit hard, but perhaps we will raise the economy to a point where we'll be able to have 3 horses by family (I hope).
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Jetservice

Mon Oct 22, 2001 11:32 pm

Sobolino, I think it worth noting that the Communist Party was never outlawed in the United States. It's message simply never resonated except with a few misguided souls in this country.
 
KROC
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 11:41 pm

Alpha 1 beat me too it! I second his post.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 11:53 pm

Sorry, KROC, but I'm a 70wmp typist!!  Big thumbs up
 
KROC
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Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Mon Oct 22, 2001 11:58 pm

Wow, thats good. Blows my 55 WPM out of the water!  Big grin
 
heavymetal
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Tue Oct 23, 2001 12:56 am

Sebelino, thanks for answering your own question.

We tend to have a distaste for pronouncements of pure and rancid generalization. There are 280 million people in our country, and most of them come from familes who trace back to practically everywhere else.

How you can tell me we all think this, or we're all that, or we tend to be this....it's mind boggling.

Is it American arrogance to ask that you at least have a clue about what you're talking of before we're expected to give yours the credibility of a rational opinion? Is that called "refusing the critics"?
 
Guest

RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:21 am

Sebolino wrote: "I don't know for the Canada, but for the US it's probably because it's a generally more right-wing country"

I think one of the big differences is in the personalities that get elected in either country. American voters have long shown a preference for trail-blazers who appeal to that country's sense of destiny: witness past presidential slogans like Kennedy's "New Frontier", Johnson's "The Great Society" and Reagan's "Morning In America".

Canadian voters tend to prefer non-ideological, pragmatic, cautious types, of which the current PM and his heir-apparent, Jean Chrétien and Paul Martin, are perfect examples. Whenever a more ideological government gets in, they either self-destruct or balance their own agenda off with some centrist positions, usually on social issues.

 
Guest

RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:50 am

A better question is "Why do some Europeans (a small minority) have problem with the US?"

Once again, here are three reasons:

1.) Ignorance (witness ADG's or Cyril B's statements in the "European Outbursts Against America" thread. Cyril B did not even know that all people born in America automatically become citizens. He also thought that America does not have much immigrants, and that the government discriminates people on the basis of race. What idiocy!)

2.) A Desire to Rebel (particularly among a minority of Left-wing European students)

3.) Envy (i.e. the resentment of America's cultural and economic successes)
 
Guest

RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Tue Oct 23, 2001 3:13 am

And, yes, I should add my usual disclaimer: Most Europeans LIKE the US, and opinion polls prove. The America-bashers are an insignificant minority, in no way representative of their societies.
 
Stratofish
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:38 am

RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Tue Oct 23, 2001 5:05 am

Because Americans and Europeans ARE DIFFERENT. We´re simmilar in most ways but there are different ways of thinking. Mostly because of different upbringing and history.
We will have to live with it: the Americans with the fact that not the whole world agrees fully with them and we Europeans that we will be flamed for almost every kind of criticism.
We all just gotta learn it.

May I add that most things we "fight" about are minor and not worth considering. We all want to bring peace to the world so why don´t we start here and now by trying to understand each other here on the forum?

rgds
Stratofish

P.S.: Although I do not agree fully with everything Sebolino said I think his question is very well justified.

The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
heavymetal
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Tue Oct 23, 2001 5:18 am

We don't 'flame' you for every kind of criticism...people get 'flamed' because 9 times out of 10 on these forums, such criticism is hopelessly generalized.

You want to see America get criticized? COME HERE! We've got newspapers and radio talk shows and websites and magazines FULL of self criticism....any American posting here can back me up on that!

The funny thing is most if not all of our arguments would make great debate over a glass of beer (or wine!)....and stay at that. Our societies did a great deal of 'maturing' in the last century. Let's use those lessons everyday.
 
Guest

RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Tue Oct 23, 2001 6:07 am

>>We don't 'flame' you for every kind of criticism...people get 'flamed' because 9 times out of 10 on these forums, such criticism is hopelessly generalized.

Exactly, Heavymetal! While all Americans welcome criticism of our government's policies, some people on this forum prefer to bash America just for the sake of it. The fact that they know nothing about the country doesn't seem to bother them.

>>The funny thing is most if not all of our arguments would make great debate over a glass of beer (or wine!)....and stay at that. Our societies did a great deal of 'maturing' in the last century. Let's use those lessons everyday.

Good point. Sometimes we forget just how trivial these debates are. The bottom line is that the alliance between America and Europe is one of the strongest in the world. In these times of crisis, that is what counts!
 
ryanb741
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Tue Oct 23, 2001 6:22 am

Say, how would the Americans on this forum feel if the UK became another US state? We will behave ourselves I promise, and think about it, you will get a whole Royal Family for free. C'mon, think about it, pleeeeaaasseee!  Big thumbs up

As you can see, I am not an anti-American European.  Smile
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Guest

RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Tue Oct 23, 2001 6:29 am

>> We will behave ourselves I promise, and think about it, you will get a whole Royal Family for free

No!!!! Keep them, please!!!!!

 Big grin
 
Guest

RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Tue Oct 23, 2001 6:37 am

Seriously, even though I've never liked Tony Blair that much, I think he has a great foreign policy.
 
jessman
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 1:11 pm

RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Tue Oct 23, 2001 8:34 am

You're right. I have to answer.

No, I have to admit it. We don't have cars. We don't have roads anyway. Luckily we have huge parts of grass where our horses and cows can eat, cos' we use on average 2 horses and 1 cow for each family. At work, we have special rooms for the horses, and we go sometimes at the cafe after work to drink whiskey and see girls dancing. It was called "Saloon" in the US Far West.
We have no cinema, no elevators, no planes, no buildings, no houses like you know them, no Coke factory, and only a few MacDonald's.
Life is a bit hard, but perhaps we will raise the economy to a point where we'll be able to have 3 horses by family (I hope).



I saw cars in France last summer, did they outlaw them?
 
Guest

RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Tue Oct 23, 2001 8:39 am

Ignorant Americano's and Impoverished Europeans!

All of you fall to your knees, you will soon be under the next world superpower - Australia.

Prepare you lands for Kangaroo's, outdoor dunnies, VB and Fosters fridges, poisoness snakes and the Crocodile Man. Forget about BMW, Mercs, Chevy's - you will all now drive Falcons, Commodores and utes.

Even as we speak, freighter loads of vegemite are being dropped in all your lands. Smear it on your lips, look up into the sky and say "Gidday Mate!"

*Propaganda and training department of the Commonwealth of Australia - Administrators of the World.

 Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile

mb

 
Miguel
Posts: 96
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Tue Oct 23, 2001 11:37 am

It is very easy to critizice, but allways dificult to hear. We react as if we were attacked. It is necessary courage to look into ourselves and think "What if he is right?" we are not obliged to take the other point of view, but we can think about it. If all the world hates us, sure we have to do some introspection.
The american people, 280 million, can not be guilt of their governement foreign policy.
For many years here in Europe, the american tourist was the only american we saw, and it wasn't nice! I know a lot of american people and I ask myself: where the hell did come those tourist? I really like american people and their country and the more I know, the better they are!
Stratofish, you are very right, even in your P.S.
Sebolino, I really like the 2 chevaux (horses) and also the 7 chevaux. What a nice farm is Paris! Big grin
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Tue Oct 23, 2001 11:42 am

>>The american people, 280 million, can not be guilt of their governement foreign policy<<




You do know that we elect our leaders right?

When we vote for our leaders we know what kind of foreign policy they make, it's not a "surprise" when they make a decison concerning Israel, etc..

And no, I'm not going to let Al-Qaeda run my country's foreign policy, so if they don't like how we treat Israel...tough.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
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RE: Why Have They That Problem?

Tue Oct 23, 2001 4:43 pm

"I saw cars in France last summer, did they outlaw them?"

You're a criminal !!! Now, everybody will know that we have cars. Hey, can you imagine what will happen ? Hundreds of millions of Americans flying and sailing to France, to drive through the country and admire the beautiful landscape, eating our food and "honoring" our girls. That will be an invasion, we better ask for the protection of ... hmmm... the US ?

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy  Smile/happy/getting dizzy  Smile/happy/getting dizzy (of course)

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