FlyBoeing
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Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Tue Dec 04, 2001 3:54 pm

Here's my solution:

Israel needs to realize that the current situation is counterproductive. Having so many Israelis living close to so many Palestinians makes for the following Israeli and Palestinian problems:

1) The Israelis need to put up tons of checkpoints and border guards. It dilutes their resources and complicates the security problem.

2) The Palestinians have no geographic continuity in their state. Therefore it'll never be a cohesive economic unit. This needs to change.

The two sides should commit to drastic territorial reorganizations and consolidate themselves into 2-3 big enclaves for each group of people. The Israelis go to the west side and the Palestinians get the side that's closest to Jordan. The frontier gets consolidated on both sides and everybody's safer.

This "land swap" would be accompanied by an appropriate net payment from one side to the other for the excess value of the land, as appraised by a consulting firm that both sides agree to.

The Israelis need to make good for their occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. The Palestinians have a right to return to the same real estate value that they got in 1967, plus a fair rent payment based on the 30 year T-bill of 1967. The Israelis pay them whatever the appropriate payment is for the land that they took.

Now Israel has a defensible border that it owns legitimately. The Palestinians have fair payment for their land and a chance to economically rehabilitate. They also have a cohesive state.

The terrorist issue is resolved by separation. For a period of 5 years, nobody may pass between Palestine and Israel. Period. No more guest laborers going from house to house. Since there are fewer points of contact this becomes easier. This way there is time for economic reforms to work and for the Palestinian government to consolidate its authority and crush HAMAS.

The Jerusalem issue is resolved by depopulating East Jerusalem and paying each resident the fair value of his home/business. All non-religious buildings are then destroyed in order to "burn the bridge"; i.e, make this contract irrevocable. The religious areas are then delivered to the control of the United Nations, which charges a tax in order to finance the cost of renovating and providing a credible and reliable security perimeter in order to enforce free religion within the area.

Any comments?
 
tbar220
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Tue Dec 04, 2001 4:16 pm

You need to clarify this land swap idea. If it means Israel giving up more land outside of the West Bank and Gaza, I am opposed to it. They should not have to make these kinds of concessions for peace from terrorists.

The rest sounds interesting, except the part about destroying non-religious buildings in Jerusalem. I like the idea of having absolutely nobody traveling between the nations for a good five years.
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DELL_dude
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Tue Dec 04, 2001 5:40 pm

I'm a PROUD supporter of the nation of Israel. I DO NOT support the palestinian terrorist state.

DELL_dude
 
Guest

RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Tue Dec 04, 2001 5:40 pm

you like I know its extraordinarily unrealistic and unfair, but at least your thinking, something more than Sharon and Arafat!
 
FlyBoeing
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Tue Dec 04, 2001 11:28 pm

Tbar:

Oh, no, Israel doesn't give up land outside the West Bank/Gaza. That isn't fair at all. What kind of loony would ask for Israel to give up the land it gained at its inception? Israel didn't exist at the time. The relevant authority to go to for compensation is the British Commonwealth.

My guiding light is that both sides deserve to exist in peace and economic security. The current situation is untenable.

Everybody is allowed to have land, just not the land that they were sitting on.

Also, this thinks up a legitimate way for Israel to compensate the Palestinans. They buy the land (including whatever they need for defenses in the West Bank) for an internationally agreed upon price and they also compensate the Palestinians according to fair rents for the land that they occupied.

These rents would be pretty damn big, but the U.S could help finance it with a loan.

I set up the notion of destroying all the non-religious buildings in East Jerusalem in order to "burn bridges." - this ensures that East Jerusalem will only exist for religious purposes. Nobody will have any reason to go there except to worship, and that right will be guaranteed by the U.N security force.
 
heavymetal
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Wed Dec 05, 2001 7:26 am

I think we need to make Jerusalem, including the Holy Sites of any and all religions, a piece of property wholly owned and maintained by Iceland. Or Greenland. Or Thailand.

Find the most common sensical group of people who have no Earthly interest in the place and have them administer it. And what they say goes.

And if that doesn't work, bulldoze the whole joint and park old DC-9s there.
 
Guest

RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Wed Dec 05, 2001 5:53 pm

Heavymetal,

Yours is the best idea i've seen in a very long time  Smile/happy/getting dizzy



VH-ADG

 
L-188
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Wed Dec 05, 2001 6:00 pm

You aren't going to be able to fix the issue....The divisions are just too set in....

I say we give up on both the Israelies and the Palistinians and kick then both out. That way we could move Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and their christian followers in.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
EmiratesLover
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Fri Dec 07, 2001 11:06 pm

I absolutely disagree with FlyBoeing's proposals.Ending the occupation MUST be the first step.... the occupation is the root of the fighting.In the long term I think the best solution is a single state over the whole of Palestine where Jews and Arabs could live on the basis of absolute equality.... but first Israel would have to end it's brutal occupation and end the decades long trampling of Palestinian rights.
 
Guest

RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Fri Dec 07, 2001 11:25 pm

EmiratesLover, while I agree that the occupation should come to an end, do you understand how the Israelis could feel differently.

It's like for 50 years now the Arabs have been telling them we don't want you hear, we want you gone, dead, leave, go, die etc....

And now its like uhh well, fine, stay, but, give me a little room and it'll be peaceful, and everything the Israelis know from the last 50 years is telling them differently.

Also, the other problem is that not all Palestinians will respect the PA leadership, so there will never be complete peace.

So Israelis are forced to ask themselves no peace and some of the land? or no peace and all of the land?

Naturally they are choosing the latter.
 
Guest

RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Fri Dec 07, 2001 11:28 pm

yes, Emirateslover, on the basis of your proposals there will be peace...:

1. "end the occupation"

2. get rid of Israel (and establish in its place an Arab state with "absolute equality" ha ha ha......or an Islamic republic...)


Because most in the Arab world think just like you, there CANNOT be peace in the ME.

BTW, if the solution to achieve peace was only the "end of the occupation" there would be peace at least since July 2000. Arafat gave us the proof that the "end of occupation" won't bring peace.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Fri Dec 07, 2001 11:31 pm

That's a logistic nightmare, but it's good to see someone at least thinking about this problem. I still think Jersuelem should be declared an Open City, and not be a Capital for NEITHER Israel nor Palestine. The City should be run under the ausipces of someone like the Vatican, and a trioka of leaders appointed to run the city-one Jewish, one Muslim and one Christian cleric each, to oversee the city. Since both sides claim Jeruselem, the best way to solve that problem is to deny it to both of them as a Capital.
 
FlyBoeing
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Fri Dec 07, 2001 11:41 pm

The problem is that Israel has no legitimacy attached to their occupation of the West Bank/Gaza. But they need it for their own security purposes.

That's why I took a financier's approach to adding legitimacy and consistency to a continued Israeli presence in the West Bank without unfairly getting rid of everything.

I used a 5 year complete seperation of Israel and Palestine as a period for which the short term instabilities of adjustment couldn't affect one side and make it send suicide bombers/Apache attack choppers. After that the two states are assumed to be in a stable peace and engagement and trade can happen.

The Israelis pay the Palestinians for their land and their occupation and reconfigure their security apparatus.

I approached the Jerusalem issue by simply thinking:

"What would make it so the issue was only freedom of religion?" The answer was to prevent anyone from permanently occupying the religious sites. One way to do that would to permanently reduce the non-religious value of it. No government HQ's, no military, no nothing. Just clerics.

That's why I decided that everything non-religous in East Jerusalem had to go. This is a good solution because it offends both sides equally.

 
EmiratesLover
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Fri Dec 07, 2001 11:43 pm

BTW, if the solution to achieve peace was only the "end of the occupation" there would be peace at least since July 2000. Arafat gave us the proof that the "end of occupation" won't bring peace.

This is incorrect... Arafat was not offered an end to the occupation, all he was offered was control over an autonomous Palestinian Bantustan-like entity.Surely you understand that there is a difference between ending an occupation and loosening it to give those living under the occupation greater freedom while maintaining the basic framework of an occupation.


2. get rid of Israel (and establish in its place an Arab state with "absolute equality" ha ha ha......or an Islamic republic...)

I did not call for the establishment of an Islamic republic...I called for the creation of a single state where people could live on the basis of equality...Jews and Arabs alike.Think South Africa....equality between whites and blacks, not a black dominated system or where whites reign supreme.... I mean EQUALITY.

It's like for 50 years now the Arabs have been telling them we don't want you hear, we want you gone, dead, leave, go, die etc....

The Arabs states have offered peace treaties to Israel in the past, that were not only rejected by Israel, but were written out of history...Sadat made one in 72 that was even more generous than the one Israel eventually accepted.In 48 the Arab armies attacked Israel only after the Israelis had launched Plan Dalet which had led to horrific atrocities on the part of the Zionist forces.I have just finished reading Simha Flapan's excellent book on this subject, and I now realize that the Arabs were not in a position to destroy Israel even back then....the whole issue of Israel being surrounded by Arabs wabting to push it into the sea was a fabrication.....I recommend Simha Flapan's book the Birth of Israel for a greater understanding.......it could not be more relevant.

 
Guest

RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Fri Dec 07, 2001 11:54 pm

a fabrication

yes, you seem to be a specialist in that field...

"This is incorrect... Arafat was not offered an end to the occupation, all he was offered was control over an autonomous Palestinian Bantustan-like entity.Surely you understand that there is a difference between ending an occupation and loosening it to give those living under the occupation greater freedom while maintaining the basic framework of an occupation"

- these are pure lies;
Arafat was given 98% of the WB, 100% of the GS, Arab quarters of east Jerusalem, control on the Temple Mount and 3% of pre-1967 Israeli territory in the Negev

I understand there's a difference between ending the 1967 occupation and ending the 1948 occupation.
 
EmiratesLover
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Sat Dec 08, 2001 12:11 am

Arafat was offered 90 % of the west bank minus the 22 percent that Israel that Israel now says is part of Jerusalem's expanded municipal borders...something that would not have delivered a viable Palestinian state.
He was also given a toxic dump iside Israel's border.Given the fact that Israel's control over ALL of the occupied territories is absolutely illegitimate from the point of view of international law, under no circumstances did Israel `generous' peace offer make things any better.
 
Guest

RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Sat Dec 08, 2001 12:20 am

"He was also given a toxic dump iside Israel's border".

- you really don't fear to spread lies in these discussions! 5 towns are now going to be built on these toxic dunes, after a decision made by Ariel Sharon...

 
tbar220
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Sat Dec 08, 2001 1:34 am

First, don't spread lies Emirates, its very easy to just make up facts.

"Sadat made one in 72 that was even more generous than the one Israel eventually accepted."

I have to admire your expertise in the history of the region. It appears you totally forgot how Sadat followed up his peace offering in '72, by deciding to attack Israel on the holy day of Yom Kippur in '73, starting the bloodiest war in Israel's history. What a true proponent of peace.

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FlyBoeing
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Sat Dec 08, 2001 8:10 am

The sort of legacy and morality attached to history is exactly the sort of thing that needs to be disposed of in any sort of peace deal.

The dead are dead. There are thousands dead on each side, but we can't for any single moment realize that anything can bring them back. All we can do is focus on the human needs of Israelis and Palestinians. Security. Let's wipe the slate clean and start rebuilding the world on low but firm ground.

All I read on this thread is stuff like:

The Arabs states have offered peace treaties to Israel in the past, that were not only rejected by Israel, but were written out of history...Sadat made one in 72 that was even more generous than the one Israel eventually accepted.

and

It appears you totally forgot how Sadat followed up his peace offering in '72, by deciding to attack Israel on the holy day of Yom Kippur in '73, starting the bloodiest war in Israel's history. What a true proponent of peace.
 
Guest

RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Sat Dec 08, 2001 4:54 pm

While TBar is right, any Sadat iniative of peace in 72 was frivolous as witnessed by the events of the following years, EmiratesLover is correct about a few things.

1) Plan "D" or (Daled in Hebrew) was the forced evacuation of some hostile Arab villages located in the Israel of the 1948 UN proposition. While many Arab villages were left completely intact (Israel has aproximately 1,000,000 Arab citizens), some were evacuated out of national security reasons.

2) Saying that the Arab countries only invaded after Plan D was put into effect is complete bullshit. Plan D was iniated in April of 1948 and units of the Egyptian, Lebanese, Syrian, Transjordanian, and Iraqi armies attacked Israel on May 15, 1948, exactly the day after David B-G decalred a US and USSR recognized state, late in the day on May 14th.

The Arab invasion had nothing to do with Plan D or Palestinian plight and everything to do with the failed, but attempted destruction of the state of Israel.

EmiratesLover said that Israel was NOT outnumbered, NOT outgunned, and NOT outled in the War of Independence,. EmiratesLover is absolutely right!

As history has shown year after year in regards to Arab concerns of the Palestinians, 1948 was no different and the neighboring Arab states did little ro protect their Arab brethren. Israeli forces were vastly superior to that of the Arab invading armies. Arab armies numbered 21,500 compared to the Haganah's 30,000 in the first month of fighting. Israeli focrced under the strategic command of David B-G performaned exceptionally well and outmaneuvered its Arab opponents on all fronts. When the second armistice took effect in July, Israeli victory was assured.

TNNH
 
ly772
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Sun Dec 09, 2001 2:30 am

I think Jerusalem should be Israeli, all of it.
 
Jaspike
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Sun Dec 09, 2001 2:41 am

LY772: You would say that Big thumbs up

They need to just draw a line down the middle..or kill off 1 side..
 
heavymetal
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Sun Dec 09, 2001 4:11 am

Give Jerusalem to Costa Rica.

Or Fiji.

Or a hundred Laplanders, selected by lottery.

Give sole ownership of the entire old city to people who see it for what it is...nothing more than a pile of rustic rocks.

I believe the scripture of all the major religions have God warning us what happens when we covet things and places more than each other.

 
EmiratesLover
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Tue Dec 11, 2001 11:45 pm

````1) Plan "D" or (Daled in Hebrew) was the forced evacuation of some hostile Arab villages located in the Israel of the 1948 UN proposition. While many Arab villages were left completely intact (Israel has aproximately 1,000,000 Arab citizens), some were evacuated out of national security reasons.

2) Saying that the Arab countries only invaded after Plan D was put into effect is complete bullshit. Plan D was iniated in April of 1948 and units of the Egyptian, Lebanese, Syrian, Transjordanian, and Iraqi armies attacked Israel on May 15, 1948, exactly the day after David B-G decalred a US and USSR recognized state, late in the day on May 14th. '''''

Actually, you are wrong.Many of the villages and towns that were populated by the Arabs and which were attacked and destroyed, including some that were accompanied by massacres were situated in the territory which according to the 1947 UN plan was supposed to belong to the Palestinian state.These included the notorious Deir Yassin massacre, in which hundreds of unarmed Palestinains were murdered by the Irgun ,led by Menahem Begin.This was a village which had previously signed a nonaggression pact with it's Jewish neighbours.The massacre provoked a flight of Palestinian refugees who fled fearing further Zionist massacres.Also, the massacre occurred in April ( the 9'th I think it was), over a month before the Arab armies entered Palestine.In fact, by the time the Arab forces attacked ( May 15 ) some 300000 Palestinians had already left their homes, and many of the worst of Zionist massacres had already taken place.So how the Arabs could be accused of starting the war is beyond me....by the time they had attacked the ethnic cleansing of Palestine had already started.

The logic behind your second point is also incorrect, indeed contradictory.You say that Plan Dalet was initiated in April ( actually it was on March 10 ) and the Arabs attacked on May 15.So basically you are saying the same as I am, the Arabs attacked AFTER Plan Dalet ( massacres, ethnic cleansing, psychological warfare etc ) was initiated.Moreover historians tend to agree that most of the fighting occurred in areas which according to the partition plan of the UN was supposed to be part of the Palestinian state.

Read carefully! Does it sound like tiny Israel fighting for it's survival amongst an onslaught of bullies, or rather a poorly co-ordinated effort by Arab armies to bring an end to Zionism's ruthless ethnic cleansing campaign.

In fact, Israeli revisionist and other authors now agree that Israel's campaigns during the First Arab Israeli war was one of the largest ethnic cleansing campaigns ever initiated in history, together with that in the former Yugoslavia.

Recommeded Reading -

Simha Flapan - The Birth of Israel-Myths and Realities
Illan Pappe The Making of the Israeli - Arab Conflict
Norman Finkelstein - Images and Reality of the Israel - Palestine Conflict
Sami Hadawi - Bitter Harvest
Other excellent authors include Nur Masalha and Benny Morris
 
EmiratesLover
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Wed Dec 12, 2001 12:03 am

And oh yes, about the new towns being built over the toxic dump, let it be remembered that were they to be offered to the Palestinians, unlike Israel which receives three or so billion dollars of US Aid, they would not be able to do all that much with it because they lack Israel's massive financial resources.It would still be a toxic dump.Also, considering the fact that Israel has already taken over most of historic Palestine, such a gesture is like adding insult to injury.And let us not forget that in return Israel would annex up to 10 percent of the West Bank, something that would not only legalize, but also reward their settlement activity in the Occupied Territories....something totally illegitimate under the 4'th Geneva Convention and UN resolutions.

So much for the myth of a ``generous'' peace offer.Maybe it deserves to die a peaceful demise just like the myth of `land without a people for a people without a land' - Herzl, and `they ( the Palestinians) did
not exist ' - Golda Meir.

PS...BTW, Am I the only one going to talk about this....sometimes I feel this forum is dominated by hardline Zionists.
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Fri Dec 14, 2001 5:24 pm



Whether you give peaceful solutions or not,make sure
that the "promise of God is due soon or later" !!!
"Waad allahi haak".
Jerusalem will end in the hands of Muslims,and Jews
will see what's gonna happen to them !

 
Guest

RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Fri Dec 14, 2001 5:45 pm

Here we have the definition of the concept of "peace" for the ME according to Arab opinion; it is rather frightening:


Whether you give peaceful solutions or not,make sure
that the "promise of God is due soon or later" !!!
"Waad allahi haak".
Jerusalem will end in the hands of Muslims,and Jews
will see what's gonna happen to them !


"Waad allahi haak".

"Waad allahi haak".


...........same words as Bin Laden's on his tape..............



Jerusalem will end in the hands of Muslims,and Jews
will see what's gonna happen to them !

Jerusalem will end in the hands of Muslims,and Jews
will see what's gonna happen to them !

Jerusalem will end in the hands of Muslims,and Jews
will see what's gonna happen to them !


Jews
will see what's gonna happen to them !


Jews
will see what's gonna happen to them !


Jews
will see what's gonna happen to them !


Jews
will see what's gonna happen to them !





But we shouldn't forget that the real obstacle to peace is, of course, the "right-wing hardliner" Sharon.











 
tbar220
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Fri Dec 14, 2001 7:52 pm

Emirates, controlled by hard line zionists?!? What hole have you been living in? What about hard line crazed Arab supporters? Did you look at Ts-ior's last comment? Do you ignore comments from people like Airmale, ADG, Hepkat, etc.? Wake up.
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EmiratesLover
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Fri Dec 14, 2001 10:00 pm

Whether you give peaceful solutions or not,make sure
that the "promise of God is due soon or later" !!!
"Waad allahi haak".
Jerusalem will end in the hands of Muslims,and Jews
will see what's gonna happen to them !

I must say I disagree catagorically with with the gist of this message.
I do not wish for one group to dominate or humiliate another, but rather I support a solution based on equality for all sides.
I do not wish for Jerusalem to be in the hands of Muslims only but I wish for the city and for the holy land to be shared on the basis of equality and respect for all sides, not one of one side occupying or dominating the other.
As Martin Luther King said, peace is not the absence of war, it is the presence of justice.
Justice for ALL.
I am very sorry if Ts-ior's comment offended anyone....I do not wish for this post to degenerate in this way at all.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Fri Dec 14, 2001 10:12 pm

EmriatesLover, I do not always agree with you, but I appreciate the fact that you at least don't apologize for the terror as people like ADG and Goodbye do, and you don't condone threatening statements ts-ior constantly puts out.
 
Guest

RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Sat Dec 15, 2001 8:07 pm

Careful Alpha1,

You're starting to sound like you have a "thing" for Goodie & myself ...

Goodie might be intersted (i'm can't speak for him), but you're a bit immature for me .......


 Laugh out loud



VH-ADG
 
EmiratesLover
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Mon Dec 17, 2001 11:40 pm

Thank you, Alpha 1 for your kind comments, but with all due respect, I do not believe that Adg is an apologist for terror.
 
go canada!
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Tue Dec 18, 2001 12:02 am

ADG is an apologist for terror an anti-america left wing woolly who infers that israel ar the true terrorists yet at the same time admits that if israel stops responding the terror attacks would still continue.

if it isnt that then perhaps he could clarify, clearly if im confused then im sure others will be.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Tue Dec 18, 2001 12:17 am

LOL, ADG, that was funny, but I have nothing for the two of you. Goodie, as you call him (sounds like you have a thing for him with that nickname), is an idiot, and you're nowhere enough woman for me, dear.
 
Guest

RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Tue Dec 18, 2001 5:40 am

Yawn ...

it was funny Alpha1 .. and your comeback was very ordinary indeed ... good try though.

GoCanadaGo

ADG is an apologist for terror an anti-america left wing woolly who infers that israel ar the true terrorists yet at the same time admits that if israel stops responding the terror attacks would still continue.

Of course, having said this you now need to save your credibility with some proof. Oh bugger .. you can't do it can you? Not to worry, your credibility is long gone.

if it isnt that then perhaps he could clarify,

He? who is he?

clearly if im confused then im sure others will be.

It's possible it's just you who is confused. Hard to say really as you seem to be making it up as you go along ...

 
EmiratesLover
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Tue Dec 18, 2001 4:54 pm

``ADG is an apologist for terror an anti-america left wing woolly who infers that israel ar the true terrorists yet at the same time admits that if israel stops responding the terror attacks would still continue. ''

I disagree...ADG does not strike me as an apologist for terror...she has made it clear she opposes it, but at the same time emphasizes the need for UNDERSTANDING the cause of terror, and addressing the root cause of it, not merely condemning it, as we all rightly do.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Tue Dec 18, 2001 9:48 pm

I disagree...ADG does not strike me as an apologist for terror...she has made it clear she opposes it, but at the same time emphasizes the need for UNDERSTANDING the cause of terror, and addressing the root cause of it, not merely condemning it, as we all rightly do.

Ok, let's take your statement as fact for a moment, EmriatesLover. Maybe she does oppose it, but her problem is that she also opposes any strong action to stop it eather. Her constant condemnations of the U.S. and Israel are clear reminders of that.

And I'm getting real tired of this view that we have to "understand" why these people are the scum of the earth!! Good God, there is NO UNDERSTANDING an irrational act like blowing yourself up to kill others or flying aircraft into buildings to kill others!! Those are acts of maniacs, not normal human beings, and we don't need to psychoanalyze it to the umpteenth degree, do we.

What's to "understand"? The Palestinians that are blowing themselves up or shooting Israeli's, hate Israel and the occupation. Al Quada and UBL hate the US and their presence in the Middle East. They themselves have declared these facts. What more is there to understand? Maybe they should "understand" that if you blow people up, that you're going to piss of two very powerful nations and that there will be consequences for such lunacy.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Tue Dec 18, 2001 9:54 pm

Yawn ...

it was funny Alpha1 .. and your comeback was very ordinary indeed ... good try though.


It wasn't a comeback, ADG, it was the truth-I think you a imbicile, and I think from here on out, I'll put you in the class with Scorpio. From now on, I won't even bother with you any longer. Have a great life rooting for these scumbags like Hamas and Al Quaeda.
 
airways1
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Tue Dec 18, 2001 10:46 pm

Since Arafat's latest call for a cessation of violence from the Palestinian side, in particular suicide bombings, two Palestinian groups, Hamas and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, issued a joint statement saying they would not abide by Arafat's order.

Therefore any military action by Israel against the Palestinian state, in other words Arafat's offices, police stations and media stations, is completely unnecessary, and cannot be regarded as self-defence. It is simply mindless revenge, and can only exacerbate the problems.

It is about time that one side starts behaving sensibly. It is clear that Arafat can't control his people, so if Israel is serious about resolving the conflict, they should take the initiative in restoring peace to the region.

 
go canada!
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RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Wed Dec 19, 2001 2:27 am

"The problem is that Israel cannot resolve the issue because of who they are and what they have done in the past and Palestine will not accept anything that Israel does. Personally, I can understand that attitude given the history of the region"

Lets unpack that statement first-who israel is and what they have done, yet no mention of palestine suicide bombers. You can understand the attitude can you? the attitude of suicide bombers? Doesnt that make you an apologist?

attacking israel-I do not believe Israel to be a friend of the west. I think that whilst they are getting their own way they are your friend, but I would suggest that when they are told to pull their head in, which they MUST be told, they will turn on America quite quickly.

so israel will turn on america and isnt a friend of the wets, i wonder were i heard that before, was it hamas or hezzbollah?

oh and wait for it

"Nevermind that too many people in the population will still want Israel gone forever, that the refugees in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt still want Israel gone forever, that Syria will still finance Hizbullah in Lebanon and now Palestine, that with no Israeli oversight, more weapons and bombs and chemicals will be smuglled into Palesitne. "was what someone else said and your reply was...

To achieve peace in the ME YOU need to try and understand why they feel that way rather than condeming them for it. Understanding is the first step to tolerance. Without understanding or tolerance there will be no peace.

Fingerpointing and blaming one side will get you nowhere. "

Les look at this statement, rater than codemm palestinia bombs you need to understand why, surely not codemming them is apologising for them?

and another classic:

I note that many of you tend to ignore the attacks on the Palestinians which is why I appear to favour them, not because I support them but simply because you refuse to acknowleget them.

You appear to favour them too right !Then you post a long ramling list of israel actions against palestinians without mentioning israelie deaths.

and then arguing that all israel children are soldiers...when you have to be 18 first!You are inferring that all israelies are legitmate targets.

Israel makes a big deal about it's *civilian* casualties, it's in all their press releases, but aren't all Isrealis drafted into the military at 17? Doesn't this then mean that these so called children are actually off duty military?

oh and then.."the devious and underhanded way in which Israel was created"

not to mention the slagging off of the usa.....
"TWA

You are incorrect by the way. The tradedy with Afghanistan is that if America had paid any attention to what was going on in Afghanistan before Sep 11th then the attack would most likely have not occurred."

Then you apolgise for arafats weak leadership..arafat the terrorist....
"You give Arafat 15 months to resolve an issue that has been going on for 50 years? And in those 50 months the Israeli response to these suicide bombers is to attack with force (retalation). Israel is not helping Arafat, nor are they seeking the assistance of others to do the same.

Lets look at facts because you guys appear to alternate between 2 statements. Either Arafat is involved in the violence or he cannot control it. Please choose. I suspect the later, he simply has no control any more. He is an old, frail man who suffers from Parkinsons disease. "

and the response by alpha one:
"Topic: RE: This Is Horrible...Israel Is Killing Palestinian C
Username: Alpha 1
Posted 2001-12-13 14:11:33 and read 137 times.
Whilst I appear biased to you I am not actually so. You could consider it as championing the underdog. There is a multitude of pro Israeli and anti arab comments in here. I have merely been trying to say that there is two sides to every story and to ask you to at least try and consider the other side.

I don't see any moderation here, just incessant anti arab hatred. Can't you see that there are two sides to this story. As none of us are there when the incidents occur how do we know which side is telling the truth, if in fact either side is telling the truth?

Israel makes a big deal about it's *civilian* casualties, it's in all their press releases, but aren't all Isrealis drafted into the military at 17? Doesn't this then mean that these so called children are actually off duty military?

You have reached an all-time low with that last post, ADG. You make no bones about what your feelings are, do you. You tell me your not biased, and then you go and try to actually CONVINCE US that all these Israeli's who are being killed are military targets? And that makes them legitimate targets under your thinking? You are, to say it mildly, disgusting-you're alien to decent people everywhere. Even after yet another attack on civilians-and civilians they are, despite your incredibly pathetic attempt to paint them otherwise, you can still defend these maniacs? And you can still pass yourself off as a human being?

And this time, ADG, you're the one telling the rest uf US that we HATE the Palestinians. Boy, after all the time you've spent telling us you DON'T hate Americans or Israeli's, you lay that word on us like it should be a stone-cold fact. Amazing!! Well there is hatred coming from this board, and it isn't from thos of us defending Israel or America for exercising it's legitimate right of self-defense in the face of barbaric attacks. It come straight from you, lady. (Actually, lady is too good a word for the likes of you). You spit out this manure all the time, and for someone who professes to try to look at things from a logical standpoint, you fall very short, especially with the shit you dumped on that post.

You are officially, in my mind, on the side of the barbarians of the world now. Not because I put you there, or JetService put you there, or any of the LY's on her, or Toda, or anyone else. You're there because you've planted yourself firmly there with your actions on this board, with your absolute inhumanity that is pr esent in your posts. And I will treat you as I would treat any of these suicide bombers, or anyone else that supports them-with utter contempt. "

and Username: Tbar220
Posted 2001-12-13 20:07:07 and read 121 times.
ADG,

You are the biggest hypocrite I think I have met on the forums. You say that there are two sides to the story. You say you hate to see innocents being killed, especially children.

Yet have you ever, once, just once posted on this forum your regrets at seeing innocent Israeli's be killed? Have you ever once posted your regrets at seeing innocent Israeli children being killed? Have you ever posted you anger over Palestinian terrorists killing innocent Israeli's?

If you harp so much as to how there are two sides to the issue, have some balls (too bad you cant) and show both sides of the issue. Show your compassion for the dead Israeli citizens. If you say that people are spreading Arab hate, don't spread Jewish hate.

Stand up for what you stand for, because otherwise, you are the biggest hypocrite on this site. You are extra fast to mention innocent Palestinians killed, you are extra fast to mention innocent Palestinian children killed, you are extra fast to label Israeli's as the cold blooded terrorists, but not once would you even suggest that for Palestinians.

So lets see your guts. I dare you, to stand up in this forum, and denounce the terrorist attacks by Palestinians (a.k.a. suicide bombers, armed gunmen). If you can do that, and be genuine, then maybe I wouldn't see you for the biggest hypocrite that you are.

But until then....

oh and another one
"Username: ADG
Posted 2001-12-09 11:00:02 and read 213 times.
Last 14 months:

Israeli deaths: 222
Palestinian deaths: 740+"
and ..."Guess it shows your ignorance of our country. Our aboriginals DO feel displaced, they DO believe their country was overrun by the british and stolen from them. They are correct in this feeling, this is true. It's exactly what the UK was very good at doing many years ago. Stealing peoples land. I like to think that they're learnt from that now which is why they moved away from the issue of Isreal in the 1940's as they could see it was a mistake. "

america ignorant? The UK stealing others lands, and where do you think non-aborginal austrialians come from the artic or atlantis, or perhaps never never land, where your sense seems to be risiding?

oh and by the way its Go Canada! not Go Canada Go, wouldnt be you if you supported the other side of the argument!

so since im not the only one to hold these views about you, perhaps you could in future critise palestinian bombings when they next occur rather than say oh they have their reasons, its all israel's fault?

well the civilised world can dream.......
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Wed Dec 19, 2001 12:13 pm

Since Arafat's latest call for a cessation of violence from the Palestinian side, in particular suicide bombings, two Palestinian groups, Hamas and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, issued a joint statement saying they would not abide by Arafat's order.

Therefore any military action by Israel against the Palestinian state, in other words Arafat's offices, police stations and media stations, is completely unnecessary, and cannot be regarded as self-defence. It is simply mindless revenge, and can only exacerbate the problems.


Let me get this straight Airways1: Hamas and PFL have said they will not abide by Yassir's call to cease the violence, and you think, that in light of that that it's ISRAEL that is bent on revenge? In other words, THEY should just take these attacks unabated, without responding?? You're nuts. That won't solve ANYTHING and it will only lead to more Israeli's getting massacred by these scumbags.

Maybe they should let up on Yassir, but do you think they should cease and desist in going after Hamas and the PFL? If you do, you're just crazy.

It's what I've been saying all along: the other side, and by the other side I don't necessarily mean Arafat, but Hamas and the PFL, SIMPLY WILL NOT STOP KILLING!!! They won't, and if Israel unilaterally has a cease-fire, it won't do one damn bit of good.

You're just nuts on this one. And, oh, there's no Palestinian State at this time.
 
Guest

RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Wed Dec 19, 2001 5:55 pm

Tuesday in Ramallah, Arafat held another speech, in which he said he is willing "to sacrifice 70 martyrs for one dead Israeli"

This is a call to end the violence.
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Wed Dec 19, 2001 6:13 pm

I look at it very simply. To make peace, both sides need to compromise. Israel has compromised, and has shown a genuine willingness to compromise, and the Palestinians have not.

If they dont want to make peace, that's their problem, and they get what they asked for.
NO URLS in signature
 
EmiratesLover
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2000 11:40 pm

RE: Here's How I'd Fix The Israel/Palestine Issue...

Wed Dec 19, 2001 7:28 pm

I look at it very simply. To make peace, both sides need to compromise. Israel has compromised, and has shown a genuine willingness to compromise, and the Palestinians have not.

If they dont want to make peace, that's their problem, and they get what they asked for.


It should be understood that the positions of the two sides are so completely different that to lump them into the same catagory if preposterous.

Israel is an occupying power, and an absolutely illegal and repressive one at that.It has no legal right to be in the occupied territories whatsoever, and it's occupation is opposed by the Palestinians who live under it and by international law and UN resolutions.The Palestinians are the occupied and for this reason they are not in a position to compromise.

Besides...since when is compromise the best way to resolve conflicts...it is NOT.Justice, fairness and equality and respect for international law is.The Palestinians were in Palestine first, and gave up 78% of their country, albeit involuntarily to make way for Europe's battered Jews, so nobody has a right to ask for a greater compromise than this...besides why should people be expected to give up something that belonged to them right along?

I fail to understand what ``compromises'' the Israelis have made to the Palestinians....they are occupying the territories in question, and so nothing less than a full immediate and unconditional withdrawal should suffice.After all, this is what UN resolutions have demanded all along.If one country occupies another and deprives it's inhabitants of their basic rights, then a withdrawal from a town eg Hebron should not be viewed as a compromise.If Germany were to occupy France, and give back Normandy, would that constitiute a compromise? Would the two countries be in a position to get on with such a travesty going on? I think not.
So let us not try to construe symmetry between the occupied and the occupier.There isnt one.In asituation like this compromise concepts seem like a joke - any alternative to justice is unacceptable and a fraud.

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