Stratofish
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Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Tue Dec 04, 2001 10:39 pm

THE STATE OF ISRAEL HAS NOW JOINED THE RANKS OF TERRORISTS

With the most recent attacks on palestine the state and the government of Israel have proven that they are not interested in peace in the least but to choose to choose the shortsighted path of violence and terror.

The suicide attacks of the weekend, of course, have to be condemned!
There simply is no justification to kill innocont people.

But this applies to ALL sides. The actions Isreal is undertaking now puts them
on the same level as of the palestinian terrorists of the weekend, if not even below that.
Why? Because the real reason behind this so called "retaliation" is to provoke more terrorist action which will eventually lead to more bloodshed.
At the moment the Israely Army is attacking innocent palestinians and the innocent Yasser Arafat.
Yes, Arafat is innocont here! It has become obvious that he does not have any real power over the
militant groups such as Jihad or Hamas. Israel calls Arafat a terrorist: Are they nuts?
This man has contributed more to the peace process than any other man alive. I know he is no angel by far. He also has blood on his hands, but not more than Sharon or others.
It seems the world uses different measures of justification analysis here.

Sharon has said this is a war on terror. Wrong, it seems like this is a war on all palestinians that for whatever sick reason happen to live where Israel wants to live (this is what Israeli right wingers probably think). These acts of war are not against terrorism, there are backed at zionism,
which is nothing else than racism. Israeli air force attacks policestations and other
public authority buildings and at the same time demand that the Palestine authority acts harsher at the terrorists of Hamas, Hizbollah etc. I think they should, as well.
BUT how do you expect Arafat and his authorities to move aginst anyone if you permanently destroy their buildings and infrastructure???
It is either because you are just too dumb or blind to realise it or you do not want to realise it.
OR it is a well planned action to get rid of Arafat (some right wing sickos have already demanded that) to leave the Palestinians in complete chaos wich would result in even more attacks from Palestine terrorists, and give Israel a basis to start a grown out war wich (I am sure of that) COULD end in a genocide.
At this point it must also be allowed to speculate if the Mossad is responsible. It is mere speculation if it was the Mossad who carried out or initiated the atacks of the weekend, and I do not say it is the case (!), but I think it could be possible.

I am by no means a particular friend of Arabs, the Arab world or Islam.
Nor am I against the people of Israel. But what your government does is carrying out terror.
I can not stand that blood is shed in order to achieve political goals and Sharon has more blood on his hands than Arafat. And Sharon plans even more bloodshed.

This is not a question of religion or political perzeption.
It is about right and wrong and Israel is WRONG.

So sad...

The Palestinians are unlikely to stop violence first because they suffer from supression and the counter violence is always greater, which creates anger. So it is up to Israel to stop the violence. Stop the attacks and all further counter attacks and the attacks from the palestinians
will also subside.
Peace to the world, even to those who maybe might not deserve it and all will profit.


Stratofish
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Tue Dec 04, 2001 10:50 pm

Terror is strapping a bomb to your waist and blowing up 25 people with you. Retaliation is using military might to counter these acts of terror. I don't buy your hypothesis, and I never will. Unless Israel responds, they'll be at the mercy of these thugs.
 
Marco
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Tue Dec 04, 2001 10:50 pm

So attacking military targets of suspected terrorist supporters is being equated with the bombing of a civilian bus? What is the world coming to  Insane?
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ryanb741
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Tue Dec 04, 2001 11:04 pm

The Israelis targeted Arafat today!!! What idiots! If they kill Arafat the USA had better get the hell out of that region and denounce Israel publically or I fear the number of attacks on the US will be magnified ten fold. Remember, the Arabs see the US backing of Israel as the cause of this all. The US needs to act NOW, or God help us all  Sad
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Tue Dec 04, 2001 11:15 pm

Riiight, Ryanb741. Arafat has had chance after chance after chance after chance to do the right thing, and he has refuses, I suspect, for internal political reasons. He's a charlatian-he's never changed and he never will. He has hated Israel from day 1, and despite his laughable Nobel Peace Prize and his latter-years transformation, he hasn't changed.

What will result if Arafat is taken out, isn't an Arab war on Israel-Israel would kick the crap out of any of them, but an inter-Palestinain war, to determine the direction that the Palestinains will take from her-either peaceful negotiation with Israel, and the establishment of legitimate Palestinian state, or they'll fall completely to the terrorsts' who only want bloodshed.
 
ryanb741
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Tue Dec 04, 2001 11:18 pm

The point being that any future Palestinian leader will come from either Hamas or Islamic Jihad. And I'm sure they will be sooooo keen to 'negotiate'.  Big grin
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
tbar220
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Tue Dec 04, 2001 11:35 pm

The Israeli deaths this weekend would be equivalent to 1260 American deaths, using the ratio of respective populations. And you have the gall to say that Israel is using terrorism? Last time I checked, its called self-defense.

And Arafat is one that has so much blood on his hands. His train of thought...

"Let's blow up some Israeli's...now let's condemn their deaths. The world will love us!"

He has continually failed his duty over the last seven years, and has done nothing to help the Palestinians themselves. Not to mention all the terrorists that he continually releases from the prisons. This is like giving Hamas a green light to carry out attacks. He is not innocent at all, and perhaps you need to look more carefully at how you think.

It's like you saying that the leader of the Taliban is an innocent. Agreed?
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Aussiemite
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Tue Dec 04, 2001 11:36 pm

let me get this right:

Flying a plane into a building is terrorism.

Strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing up a bus isnt terrorism.

Using F16's to blow up military targets is terrorism.

 Nuts  Nuts  Nuts
 
Stratofish
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Tue Dec 04, 2001 11:56 pm

To get this straight:
If one uses force to achieve political ends and kills civilians, that is what I call terrorism.

Most people injured in the air raides were school children (source: BBC) and if you had watched the pictures of Gaza city today you would have been struck about how familiar they were. It looked just like the place where they blew up the bombs last weekend. So we got victims here and victims there; so let´s see there will be more victims... yeah, sure.

Israel is not self defending anymore, it has gone beyond it. I thought I made that clear.
I would not call the targets military targets. Not at all! A police station a military target? And at the same time requesting they should arrest more? Makes sense.  Yeah sure
Also I said that Strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing up a bus IS terrorism. I did condemn it and I mean it. I never supported the actions of militant Palestinians!

The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
Guest

RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Tue Dec 04, 2001 11:59 pm

The preposterous thing is that Israel says our the Palestians are not arresting the people they want arrested, which is hardly surprising considering they are attacking police stations!
Iain
 
Stratofish
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 12:00 am

BTW: I disaggree with you Tbar220. Of course the Taliban are not innocent! But I know one of my statements was tricky and maybe you got me wrong on that.
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 12:05 am

What should Israel do, Stratofish? Let these continued deaths go unanswered every few days? Should they plead for the violence to stop-to a bunch of thugs who have no intention of EVER stopping the violence. I mean, come on, wake up and smell the coffee!! If it was happening to you and yours, you'd sure as hell fight back. And if you say you wouldn't you're not being honest, or you're just too scared to stand up to this kind of terror.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 12:06 am

I should have added that people like you are awful quick to condemn Israel for their actions, but I notice the never, EVER to I see any solutions offered on threads like this. None. But's it's easier to mindlessly condemn than it is to sit down and think of an alternative, isn't it?
 
ryanb741
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 12:10 am

Round and round in circles we go.... Alpha1 - WHY do you think the Palestinians are so angry in the first place? Answer that one and then come back with your talk of retribution.

You see the World in black and white only and that is IMO a failing on your part.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 12:21 am

They are angry because they've wanted to destroy Israel since the day it was founded. There have been two wars launched by their Arab Bretheren to do just that destroy Israel, and they've both failed.

They're angry because they don't have a homeland, that's obvious. But after 40 years of terrorism against Israel, and they still don't have a state, isn't it about time they wizened up an changed tactics? Constant terrorism will NOT achieve their political objectives.

They're angry because, despite all the lofty rhetoric and talk about their "brothers, the Palestinians", the Arab world has done little to help ease their suffering, be it in Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, or wherever else they are. Remember in the early 70's, Jordan launched a bloody war AGAINST the Palestinians to drive them out of that nation.

Does all that sound "black and white" to you. You're problem is that you see it as black and white yourself. That it's Israel's fault for all their suffering, and, as you can see, that's not the case.
 
ryanb741
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 12:25 am

 Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
b757300
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 12:29 am

In the minds of a lot of people on this forum, it is ok to blow up innocent civilians but it is murder to kill terrorists.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Guest

RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 12:31 am

This is the thought in Israel right now.

For 15 months Israel has prayed and prayed that Arafat would be their partner in peace. They have cried and weeped and prayed and prayed that Arafat would close down the mortar factories, they have been blown to bits hoping Arafat would disable the Hamas terrorist network, Islamic Jihad and all.

And what has happened Stratofish?

Palestinian policeman are now the ones blowing up Jerusalem and Arafat has not done anything to stop to stop this terror.

SO YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY WRONG. Israel has said, Arafat is worthless, as he has demonstrated himself and taken its actions to limit the power of his very real and very deadly presedenital guard and Palestinian police because while Palestine has no military it has this insane "police force" which acts as a paramilitary whose members are now (have been for 14 goddamn months) blowing up Israelis, and well the Israelis are pretty f*ciking tired of it.

So while the Arabs target teenagers and mothers, the Sharon went to the core of the problem over the last few days hitting helicopters, buildings, and other infrastructure that is used to kill his people.

Helicopters stratofish, not mothers and teens.
 
LY744
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 5:45 am

1. The Palestinian police is a legitimate military target. Let's see, does your local police department operate mortars, RPG launchers, heavy machine guns, and is every "officer" armed with an assault rifle? The PP is way too big for the population of the Palestinian autonomy, and since they aren't supposed to have an official army, the PP serves as their armed forces. Do you think all that size and fire power is aimed at keeping the law and order within their territory? Obviously, not. The Palestinian security forces have been heavily involved in various attacks on Israel in the past year.
2. Yasser Arafat is directly responsible for the death of all Israelis in the past year, and indirectly for the deaths of all the Israelis for the past decade. He has released hundreds of dangerous terrorists from jail a year ago.
3. If fish-face was the target of today's attacks, he'd be dead by now.
4. The Palestinians are so pissed off because the are trained to do so in Palestinian schools! From an early age, they are taught how Israel is the great satan and opressor of the Palestinians, and are encouraged (whether by officials or their family) to blow themselves up in Israel. The Palestinian media is also full of hateful anti-Israeli propoganda.

LY744.
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Guest

RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 5:48 am

Like Sharon is any better...  Insane
 
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 5:55 am

 Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane  Insane
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 6:09 am

It appears that Sharon has more to worry about than just Arafat:

By OLIVER MOORE
Globe and Mail Update


Even as Israel declares war on Palestinian terrorism, Foreign Minister Shimon Peres warned that his Labour Party may leave the coalition government if Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat is toppled.

"I know there are many members of my party who think the time has come to leave the government," Mr. Peres said Tuesday in Bucharest at a meeting of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe. "Upon my return home we shall meet and we shall decide."

Mr. Peres's left-leaning Labour Party — in a unity government with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, head of the right-wing Likud party — favours rehabilitating ties with Mr. Arafat. A decision Monday night by the Israeli cabinet to declare Mr. Arafat's government a supporter of terrorism was taken after Labour ministers left the meeting in protest.

Meanwhile, European nations, alarmed at Israel's military retaliation for Palestinian terrorist attacks, urged both sides Tuesday to contain the violence before it is too late.

Arab leaders called for international pressure to bring a stop to violence and retaliation, while Islamic militants urged Mr. Arafat to "join the uprising."

The European Union said Mr. Arafat must "convincingly and relentlessly" pursue a crackdown against Islamic militants but warned Israel that airstrikes only weaken the Palestinian leader.

Israeli analyst Hanan Crystal said that Mr. Peres did not want a repeat of the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, when forces under the command of Mr. Sharon ignored a limit set by the government and advanced all the way to Beirut.

"It's like Lebanon. At 40 kilometres there was consensus, but if Sharon intends to try to get rid of Arafat and destroy the Palestinian Authority ... Labour will not stay in his government for one day," Mr. Crystal told Reuters.

Mr. Arafat faced little respite Tuesday in spite of the emerging divisions in the Israeli government. The Israeli ambassador to the United States heaped pressure on the Palestinian leader later Tuesday, saying that a week-long ceasefire is no longer enough to re-start peace talks, and Israeli warplanes targeted his office.

"It's not a question of seven days. The question is whether Arafat is going to start responding to terror," Ambassador David Ivry told the Washington Institute for Near East Policy.

Mr. Ivry said that Mr. Arafat must arrest militants and dismantle the infrastructure of the militant groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad before any new negotiations can begin.

Israel brought its attacks to Mr. Arafat's doorstep Tuesday, sending missiles within 30 metres of him as he worked at his desk.

"Arafat was in his office working when the Israeli helicopters fired missiles on the places around his office," said Ahmed Abdel Rahman, secretary-general of the Palestinian cabinet. "It's clear now that Sharon has decided to topple the Palestinian Authority and destroy the peace process."

An adviser to Mr. Sharon said, though, that Mr. Arafat was not the target. "We have stated publicly that we do not intend to harm him personally," said Danny Ayalon.

"But since he is responsible for the wave of terrorism which has been going on, we had to hit something close to him personally," he added.

Two Palestinians were killed in the Gaza Strip, one of them a 15-year-old student, when Israeli warplanes rocketed a Palestinian Authority security installation, doctors said.

In Gaza City, F-16s fired on the office of the Palestinian Preventive Security Service. Hundreds of children fled a nearby school after the first missile hit. A doctor said two people, a 15-year-old student and a 20-year-old man, were killed, and dozens of children were injured by shrapnel and debris.

The White House staunchly refused to criticize their strongest Mideast ally in spite of these reports. "The president's point of view is [that] Israel is a sovereign power — Israel has a right to defend itself," spokesman Ari Fleischer said.

Israeli soldiers have sealed off the West Bank to Palestinians hoping to reach jobs in Arab East Jerusalem. "Go back home," they told the commuters, "No one will pass from here."

Israeli forces also closed down back roads often used to bypass official checkpoints and deployed tanks at West Bank intersections.

The air raids and security clampdown come only hours after Israel's cabinet branded Mr. Arafat's government a supporter of terrorism and singled out two organizations affiliated with the Palestinian leader as terror groups — the Tanzim militia and Force 17, a branch of the Palestinian Authority's security forces.

U.S. President George W. Bush announced Tuesday that authorities have seized four offices of the Texas-based Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development, saying it is not the charity it purports to be.

"It raised $13-million from people in America last year," he told a news conference. "Money raised by the Holy Land Foundation is used by Hamas ... to indoctrinate children to grow up into suicide bombers."

"America has called on other nations to supress the financing of terror, today we take further steps to suppress it inside our border," he said. "Terrorists benefit by the Holy Land Foundation, and we're not going to allow it."

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has declared an all-out "war on terror" in response to suicide bombings and shooting attacks by the Palestinian resistance that killed 26 people and wounded nearly 200 over the weekend.

"The Palestinian Authority is an entity that supports terrorism, and must be dealt with accordingly," the Likud-dominated government said in a statement, over the wishes of Labour legislators.

Controversy between the Likud and Labour had already broken into the open in a security cabinet meeting last Wednesday, IsraelInsider has reported. Mr. Peres was highly critical of the selection of Major-General Meir Dagan to head the Israeli team negotiating with the Palestinians.

"You've created a second foreign ministry," Mr. Peres reportedly said, complaining that he was being frozen out of the negotiations.

With reports from AP and Reuters
 
Guest

RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 6:13 am

I think that Alpha 1 is right. The Arab countries never wanted to live with the israelies. And besides Isreal and the Palistinians are at war, the things they do are not cowerdly attacks on malls and discos they are blowing up military targets. I assume most of the people are from Israelie hating Britian so it is imposible to convince them the truth. or San Fransico where people grow up to fight for the Taliban.
 
Scorpio
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 6:22 am

'An eye for an eye will make the whole world go blind' (Ghandi). That's exactly what's happening here. It seems they're going round in circles: Palestine terrorists attack Israeli targets, so Israel retaliates, causing more death. This will lead to Palestines wanting revenge on their part. Thus even more bloodshed. Israel will again retaliate, etc. The way things are going today, we're not going anywhere. To solve this, someone will HAVE to break the circle of violence. That is the first step. As long as none of the parties (Palestinians AND Israelis) are willing to do that, this problem will not be solved. Period.

Who's to blame? I don't know, and I think no-one really knows. Fact is that Sharon's hardline approach is not working, and Arafat seems to have lost all control (if he ever really had any) over Hamas and Jihad. Sharon's approach of heavy retaliation to attacks has, as could be feared, provoked even more violence, and both parties are farther apart than ever.
 
Pilot1113
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 6:26 am

It's apparent that other means have failed to bring peace.

- Neil Harrison
 
Stratofish
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 6:30 am

LY744: "2. Yasser Arafat is directly responsible for the death of all Israelis in the past year, and indirectly for the deaths of all the Israelis for the past decade."
Don´t you think that ia a little bit too easy??? It is like you go and blame the school teacher if a kid in the class has done something to another. Or if I went and blame the mayor of the city I live in for ALL crminal activity here.

Boeing in pdx: "I think that Alpha 1 is right. The Arab countries never wanted to live with the israelies." Same thing the other way arround. Still no justification for killing for either side.

To me it seems that most of you have a different opinion (compared to mine) on what to call "military targets". Arafat is the elected leader (although with no power now) of the Palestine parliament. I think most countries would not like to have their Parliament buildings or the buildings of the (political) parties of regarded as military targets.

Btw: I just heard on tv that Sharon can stay in power even if the Labour Party leaves the coalition, is that true?
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
Guest

RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 6:31 am

Now Joined?

Now?

 Laugh out loud

Think they've been there for a very long time.

And those who try and *justify* the behaviour by saying that Palestine does it to are simply condoning revenge & retaliation.

Violence merely invites more violence, it resolves nothing.



VH-ADG
 
LY744
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 8:33 am

ADG, your post has made no sense, as usual.

Scorpio:

I do agree with you in general, but I have to say that even if Israel was not to retaliate, the terrorists would still be attacking Israel. Sure, after a few months filled with bloody attacks on Israelis, and Israel sucking up to the Palestinian leaderhsip, the terrorists might lose some power, but it still wouldn't be enough to stop them. Hopefuly, by then, Arafat's security forces will be again cooperating with Israel in fighting terrorism. Now, Israel is hoping to weaken the terrorists immideatly, and give the Palestinian leadership a strong message, that would hopefuly lead them to making real moves to limit the terrorists' freedom of action within the Palestinian autonomy.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
flyguy1
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 11:02 am

You think it matters what Arafat does? Even if tommorow morning he stood in the middle of Gaza, and said "NO MORE ATTACKS" it wouldnt mean much. There would be certain segments of the population, who will go against this. And if he put to many restrictions on these groups, they would probably attempt to kill him also. These people are animals who train little kids to shoot assault rifles. Sure Israel made a few mistakes, but this time they have no choice.
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Alpha 1
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 11:56 am

Scorpio, you make some excellent points in your thread, but the question is: if the peace process, such as it is, hasn't solved the problem, and if continuing conflict on both sides doesn't solve it, what's the answer? That's been the dead-end question for 40 years now.
 
ryanb741
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 9:05 pm

It is preposterous to suggest that Arafat could stop the terrorist activity - this is why Sharon should not have insisted on a 2 week ceasefire before resuming peace talks. I mean, if the World's most powerful country (USA) is powerless to stop a few Arabs flying planes into skyscrapers then what chance has Arafat got with his meagre resources?
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
L-188
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 9:11 pm

Since neither group seems to be able to control themselves, it has become obvious that something must happen.

Either A: both sides fight it out until one is exterminated.

Or B:The international community kicks out both the Israelies and the Palistinians and let the christians take over. The current occupants don't seem to be able to handle the responsiblity of living in the holy land.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
LY744
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 9:28 pm

Why do you people keep suggesting that Arafat is so poor and powerless? Why does he need the huge (and armed to the teeth) Palestinian police? Maybe he should have been more careful when making the decision to release hundreds of known and dangerous terrorists from jail. How come his security forces "arrested" over a hundred terrorists within hours after the weekend attacks? Why didn't they do it prior to it?

BTW, another suicide bomber blew himself up in Jerusalem today. Before anyone says that it is the result of Israel's retaliatory actions, just think of the time it takes to prepare such act. It only proves that they would still keep attacking Israel no matter what Isreal's reaction is.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Scorpio
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 9:44 pm

Well, if Israel would stop retaliating, sure terrorist attacks will not immedialtely stop. But it could stop the violence from escalating, which is what's happening now: the terrorist attacks seem to get more frequent and brutal every single day, and the same goes for the retaliation attacks.

Alpha 1,

if the peace process, such as it is, hasn't solved the problem, and if continuing conflict on both sides doesn't solve it, what's the answer?

I don't know what the answer is, but I do know it's not what's happening now... This problem will not be solved overnight, that much is clear after 40 years of violence. But the peace-process, no matter how difficult, needs to be put back on the rails, as it seems to be the only possible way out of this mess. But someone will have to take the initiative, and right now it seems neither party wants to talk to each other. That someone should be Israel, as it is clear that organisations such as Hamas and Jihad will not do this, after all they're pure terrorist organisations, operating independently of Arafat. These terrorists are not interested in peace, that much is clear. But there ARE many Palestinians, and Palestinian organisations that DO want peace. If Israel keeps on retaliating, it will put these organisations and people up against them too. So talk to them, (and that does not equal 'suck up to them', as someone suggested) and eventually the terrorist organisations will lose a fair bit of their support.
 
Guest

RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 10:08 pm

..."it is clear that organisations such as Hamas and Jihad will not do this, after all they're pure terrorist organisations, operating independently of Arafat."

it is clear they are terrorist organizations; but how is it so clear that they're "operating independently of Arafat"?...And even if was the case, there would still be a big problem concerning Arafat: he makes NOTHING against these terror organziations, and that's the least we can say...
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 10:16 pm

Well, if Israel would stop retaliating, sure terrorist attacks will not immedialtely stop. But it could stop the violence from escalating, which is what's happening now: the terrorist attacks seem to get more frequent and brutal every single day, and the same goes for the retaliation attacks.

But that's where you're mistaken, Scorpio. Israel could stop retaliating right now, and the attacks on them will not end. The people doing these attacks have no wish to stop attacking Israel. They simply won't. That's one of the inherent problems here. The other side-and by that I'm talking more about Hezbollah and Hamas, not the Palestinain Authority-simply wants to kill Israeli citizens.

That's why this is a vicious cycle. Israel has an absolute right to defend it's citizens from attack, and if they simply give in to these thugs, it will make things better, not worse.

Yet in the long run, these losers in Hamas and Hezbolla hurt the Palestinian and Arab cause more than they hurt Israel's. No, the de-escalation has to come from the side of the Palestinians, not the Israeli's, in my view. The Palestinians will NEVER get a state while these murderers are constantly attacking Israel. Why they, and the Arab nations don't see this, is beyond me. But I honestly don't know if the Arab world, collectively, has it in them to stop these groups.

Other than that, I don't know where the answers lie.
 
Stratofish
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 10:48 pm

"No, the de-escalation has to come from the side of the Palestinians, not the Israeli's, in my view."
That is exactly what brings everyone nowhere. ONE side hast to start. The Palestinians are unlikely to stop since their whole lives are controlled and surpressed by Israel and they are taught hatred. I do not want to ask who suffers more from the other, but that is what it is about. This would be THE chance for Israel to show the world that they are not the ones who teach they children hatred.

I have said it first, Scorpio said it later and now I will repeat it. To stop this violence right now it is absolutely necesarry that Israel stops it´s unjustified war. This is no longer self-defense. You do not kill innocents for self-defense. Israel stops and within a few month to a year the terrorist attacks on Israel will become less and stop sometime later. Also it would weaken the political stand of the militant Palestinians among them, whereas the current war-like situation helps them doing strong in the Palestine opinions.

The attack this morning is quite likely linked to the bombing campaign. It doesn´t need much time to prepare a suicide mission. Esecially since they might have bombs in stock.

Arafat is powerless. He has absolutely no control over what is going on. We can only speculate over why he needs such a big police force (IF it is that big - it is the first time I hear something like this), maybe it´s because the whole society is somewhat chaotic there, maybe because of Israels constant intrusions, I do not know... But you do not want to suggest they are all terrorists??? Also, Israel kept destroying Arafat´s instruments of conducting politics and power but at the same time they expect him to act. That makes no sense, neither will it work.

To me it seems Israel wants to get rid of Arafat. Well, but who will succed him? If you kill Arafat (even only politically) you get back to more than 40 years ago and repeat the bloodshed of probably more than 40 years. What a perspective!

Stratofish
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DELL_dude
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 11:06 pm

I support your views Alpha 1. It's a shame that some people think that we should just let the TERRORISTS have what they want to shut them up, but that's NOT how it works or how it's going to happen. The nation of Israel has every right to defend itself against the TERRORISTS that are the Palestinians and any other TERRORIST group. The right to live peacefully must be defended even if it means destroying those who seek to destroy you for no reason.

DELL_dude
 
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Wed Dec 05, 2001 11:18 pm

What I still don't understand, is why land that used to belong to Palestinians, is now Israeli??? After WW2 we just came in and said "Alright Palestinians, move aside and let these guys take your land..."

 Confused
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Thu Dec 06, 2001 12:08 am

This would be THE chance for Israel to show the world that they are not the ones who teach they children hatred.

And what happens Stratofish, when another 25 Israeli's are killed by a suicide bomb? And another 25? And another 25, and another, and another?

THESE TERRORISTS WILL NOT STOP!! No matter if Israel NEVER fires another gun, another rocket, another bomb! THEY WILL NOT STOP! Even if Israel and the Palestinians come to an accord to establish the State of Palestine-THEY WON'T STOP!!

Why? Because if they do, they lose worldly power to decide life and death over others. That's why OBL runs his charade; that's why Saddam Hussein is the way he is; that's why Hamas and Hezbollah are the way they are-they won't stop. And the only way it seems to make them stop is to eliminate them.

It's all well and good to say that Israel should be the ones not to teach their children hatred, but when their children are being slaughtered, what do you expect them to do-what you YOU do if these thugs were killing people in Bonn or Stuttgart or Munich or Berlin? You'd demind the goverment of Germany wipe such low-life's off the fact of the earth.

Maybe the retaliation doesn't help, and doesn't work, but, in the face of an unrelenting enemy, what is a country to do? Give up, or try to eliminate such a cancer?
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Thu Dec 06, 2001 12:12 am

Leftseat, the state of Israel was created in 1948. I believe the seeds of that creation go back long before that, to something called the Balfour Treaty or something like that, someone help me out with that. But the U.S. did NOT set up Israel. The U.S. was the first nation to recognize the Jewish State. The Soviet Union wanted to be the first, but when they didn't get there first, they then refused to recognize Israel, and threw their support behind the Arab States in the region.
 
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Thu Dec 06, 2001 12:30 am

So your point being? It still was Palestinian land...
 
Scorpio
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Thu Dec 06, 2001 12:34 am

Dell_dude,

It's a shame that some people think that we should just let the TERRORISTS have what they want to shut them up, but that's NOT how it works or how it's going to happen

I don't think anyone said Israel should 'give in' to the terrorists. They need to be brought to justice, no doubt. And I never said Israel is the one to blame either. But something needs to be done. Hundreds of people are dying there, on BOTH sides, and that's simply not going to stop untill either party shows itself 'the better man' and seeks the dialogue rather than revenge and confrontation.

Alpha 1,

THESE TERRORISTS WILL NOT STOP!! No matter if Israel NEVER fires another gun, another rocket, another bomb! THEY WILL NOT STOP! Even if Israel and the Palestinians come to an accord to establish the State of Palestine-THEY WON'T STOP!!

Which is why we call them terrorists and they need to be brought to justice. They will not stop, indeed, but it is clear that the more violence Israel uses in retaliation attacks, the more violent the terrorist attacks become. So why wouldn't it work the other way around? It's at least worth the try. They won't stop, but maybe there will be less attacks, and a basis for conversation can be established. Point is: anything's better than what we have today.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Thu Dec 06, 2001 12:46 am

Which is why we call them terrorists and they need to be brought to justice. They will not stop, indeed, but it is clear that the more violence Israel uses in retaliation attacks, the more violent the terrorist attacks become. So why wouldn't it work the other way around?

Do you think a bunch of people who strap bombs to their bodies, go into a crowded area and blow themselves up can be reasoned with? Do you think a group of people who hijack planes and fly them into crowed buildings can be reasoned with? You cant reason with utter barbarism like that. Just like Neville Chamberlain thought you could reason with a man like Hitler, which you couldn't, you can't reason with Al Qaueda, or Hamas, or Hezbollah. These groups see it as PART OF THEIR RELIGION that makes it justifiable to go out and do these henious acts. If they abandon what they've been doing, then in their minds, they're abandoning their faith, and then everything they've done over the years, to them, was a lie.

History shows us over and over again, that you cannot reason with meglomaniacs or groups of terror. You just can't. You can try, and Lord knows, Israel and the Palestinian Authority have tried in the past to make a peace through all this.

But look what's just happened: in recent weeks, the PA and Israel have all but ignored some smaller acts of terrorism, and tried to move the peace process forward. So, what happens when they even attempt to make progress? These thugs raise the bar and blow up 25 innocent people. Why? BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT PEACE!! Despite their claim that their fighting for justice and peace, they are not. They're out to destroy, not build. The cannont be reasoned with.

And Leftseat, relgion aside, the land was historically Israel's long before there was a State of Palestine. 50 years back does not cover all of history, does it? Why Israel wasn't set up concurrent with a State of Palestine, I do not know. That's not my strong point on history.
 
tbar220
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Thu Dec 06, 2001 3:31 am

Leftseat, before 1948, there was no state in the area. Honestly, it was just a piece of land (named Palestine, it needs a name, not just "Piece of Land") where people could live in. When Jews moved there, they had to buy the land from the British Government.
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Hamlet69
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Thu Dec 06, 2001 4:53 am

Dear all,

This is obviously a complicated and emotional situation. Without taking sides, I'd like to comment on the history of the situation, as I just completed a research paper based on this very thing.

The idea of a Jewish state orginated with the Zionist Movement during the 1890's (sorry, I forget the date of the first meeting). Although many states sympathized with the cause, it was less than a priority for most and a non-issue for the Ottoman Empire, who at that time controlled the area historically known as either Levant, Judea, Palestine, and now Israel. The Zionist Movement gained a friend in the United Kingdom with the publication of the Balfour Document (@ 1917, IIRC), formally endorsing the possibility of a Jewish state. After WWI, the Zionists gained even more ground, when Britain took control of the Palestine area from the Ottoman Turks. It was during this time that vast numbers of Jewish immigrants moved to the 'Holy Land.' Indeed, it was the flood of Jewish settlers into the area that lead to the first violence, a series of Arab revolts that took place from 1936-1939. In 1939, Britain signed an agreement with the Palestinians that no more than 75,000 new Jewish immigrants would be allowed into Palestine during the next five years, and no more after that.

Of course, WWII changed the situation. During the war, Britain officially opposed more Jewish settlement. However, many Jews (far more than 75,000) fled from the Nazi's into Palestine. After the war, a joint British/U.S. committee was created to determine how many Jewish settlers should be allowed into Palestine. They eventually reached the number of 100,000. Both the Arabs and the Jews of Palestine were upset with this decision. The Arabs were angry because the British had already promised that no more than 75,000 would be allowed since 1939, a number that had already been surpassed during the war. The Zionists were upset because they felt, indeed - it was their policy, that all Jews who wanted to should be allowed into Israel - a number approaching the millions. As the British attempted to keep the peace, violence erupted on both sides. Indeed, the first organized terrorist organizations were Jewish, intent on gaining political independence from Britain. Unable to deal with the situation, Britain turned to the newly established United Nations for help. After months of debate, a resolution was passed in 1947 that called for the creation of two politically independant states in Palestine - one Arab and one Jewish.

The Jewish state of Israel was proclaimed in May (or was it March, I'm sorry, I forget the exact date) 1948, and was immediately invaded by armies from all the surrounding Arab countries. Several cease-fires were called, but few lasted until January 1949, when a final truce took effect. However, during the conflict, Israeli armies had captured almost all the land that had been promised to the Arab Palestinians for their own state. Citing 'security concerns', Israel refused to leave the conquered land. As already mention, the United States was the first to formally recognize Israel, while the U.S.S.R. was not far behind. By its first anniversary, Israel had been admitted into the United Nations. Meanwhile, the Palestinians looked for outside support of their cause, which was the reconquest of land promised them by the 1947 U.N. Resolution.

The next major conflict came in 1967, when Egypt, led by President Nasser, a strong supporter of Arab nationalism, attacked Egypt. However, with abundant aid from the United States, Israel was able to not only defend itself, but captured the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt. During the Six-day war of 1967, Israel also invaded the West Bank, controlled by Jordan, the Gaza Strip, southern Lebanon, and the Golan Heights of Syria. Israel eventually returned the Sinai peninsula, but maintained their presence in the other areas captured. In October 1973, Egypt and Syria launched a cooridinated surprise attack on Israel, which suffered severe initial defeats. However, with increase economic and military aid from the U.S., Israel was able to turn the tide, and drive back its attackers. Again, Israel overran the Sinai. The U.S. involvement in the conflict lead to the 1970's oil embargo and subsequent shortage in the U.S. This, as well as the U.S.'s falling status with Arab nations of the region, lead to its attempts to improve political relations. These attempts bore fruit with the 1978 Camp David Accords, which saw Egypt formally recognize Israel in return for Israel returning the Sinai. Syria soon followed suit, as did other nations of the region over time.

Further peace efforts saw the signing of both Oslo I and Oslo II, where Israel agreed to return partial control of Gaza and the West Bank over to the Palestinian Authority, in return for the latter's promise to change its charter and formally recognize Israel's right to exist. This is how things pretty much stand today.

That is the political history. I am not going to delve into matters such as Palestinian terrorism, Israeli settlement in Palestinian land, the issue of Jerusalem or current P.M. Sharon's right-wing government. I don't think either side would like my views on such things and therefore, I see no need to share them.

Any items I have gotten wrong or forgotten I apologize. Please feel free to post corrections as need be.

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Thu Dec 06, 2001 5:06 am

"was immediately invaded by armies from all the surrounding Arab countries. Several cease-fires were called, but few lasted until January 1949, when a final truce took effect. However, during the conflict, Israeli armies had captured almost all the land that had been promised to the Arab Palestinians for their own state. Citing 'security concerns', Israel refused to leave the conquered land. "

"However, with abundant aid from the United States, Israel was able to not only defend itself, but captured the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt. During the Six-day war of 1967, Israel also invaded the West Bank, controlled by Jordan, the Gaza Strip, southern Lebanon, and the Golan Heights of Syria. Israel eventually returned the Sinai peninsula, but maintained their presence in the other areas captured. "

Clearly, the Palestinians attacked first in 48', but the Israelis took a much bigger peice of land from them.

As usual, both sides are at fault...

 
LY744
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Thu Dec 06, 2001 5:45 am

Alpha 1, the USSR did recognize Israel, in fact, it was one of the first countries to do so. Further more, the Soviet "organized" a deal in which Israel got access to Czech-made weapons (a "twisted" Czech-made version of the Me-109 was to be the first fighter of the IAF).

LY744.
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Stratofish
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Thu Dec 06, 2001 6:20 am

First I think we need to thank Hamlet for his effort to bring more light into the history of what we talk about.

Second, I am glad to see most here at least agree that retaliation will not solve the problem.


Alpha1:
Think in political terms. If Israel stops attacking Palestine and contributes its part to improve live in the territories the TERRORISTS will loose their support and later be brought to justice by either the Palestinians or someone else.
And the suicide attacker will die out after some time, but at the moment there are more born every moment.
If they did that here: I would certainly cal upon my government to find a realistic solution that prevents the whole country from blowing up in a fully upgrown war.
AFAIK there was a time in history when 3 religions lived alongside each other in the so called holy land.
Btw, what do you mean with "smaller acts of terrorism"?
Those skirmishes along some provocative and small settlements?

Since none has answered my question yet:
Can Sharon remain in power even if the Labour Party leaves the coalition?

Stratofish
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airplanenut
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RE: Israel Chose Terror To Fight Terror. Bad Move!

Thu Dec 06, 2001 7:04 am

I don't know if this was said yet, but is this not EXACTLY what the US did to Afghanistan?

Act of terrorism committed against US, we blow the life out of Afghanistan.

Why is Israel not allowed to retaliate at all? The US is being very hipocritical on this; doing what they tell others NOT to do.

If Arafat cared, then why do people he arrests for terrorist activities not stay in jail for more than a month???

Jeremy
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