PanAm747
Topic Author
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What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 7:01 am

England has stated that they will hand bin Laden over to the USA, ONLY IF he does NOT face the death penalty.

I agree, it's not like he killed anyone on US soil, he wasn't flying those planes.

Just give him a nice comfortable cell, with a computer, nice modem, and some satellite phones.

We wouldn't want him to lose touch with his "friends", right?



http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/12/09/ret.uk.laden/index.html

Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
KROC
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 7:04 am

Maybe Osama and Noreaga can share the same penthouse.
 
Guest

RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 7:05 am

Has Osama been captured??????????
 
CPDC10-30
Posts: 4681
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 7:06 am

I don't think it matters anyways, because he has vowed to kill himself before being captured.
 
Scotty
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 7:07 am

It is illegal for a country which is a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights to extradite criminals to states where the death penalty exists.

We may support you but we dont always have to agree with you. Is that not what we're fighting for anyway?

btw, the name of the state is United Kingdom, not England. please learn the difference.

Cheers

Scotty
 
PanAm747
Topic Author
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 7:15 am

>>Maybe Osama and Noreaga can share the same penthouse.<<

I don't know if Osama would like Miami though, maybe we can build his cell in the Arizona desert if he prefers...at taxpayer's expense of course.


>>Has Osama been captured??????????<

No, this is IF he was captured.


>>I don't think it matters anyways, because he has vowed to kill himself before being captured.<<

But what if he is? But most importantly, what if his deputies are captured? Should they be asked to pay for their crime of murdering thousands?

I say let it be the Nurremburg Trials part II.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 7:27 am

Please have some respect for the country that is standing shoulder to shoulder with the country below Canada but above Mexico.

I echo what Scotty has said
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
silverfox
Posts: 1032
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 7:33 am

Scotty, the average non UK resident wouldnt know the difference if it kick them up the arse.
To prove my point, This is why the average us newsman states place and country, as his average viewer hasnt a clue where most non us places are. e'g Hiram Knucklhead Paris France as there are a few Paris's in the us. The UK newshound just says John Snow Paris, as most of his viewers do have a decent education on other parts of the world.
To prove a point
In Detroit this Oct i met some schoolkids at the Dearborn museum. When asked where i was from i said Windsor, where our Queen sometimes stays in the Castle. As i was leaving the teacher said to me. You live near Windsor?, yes i said, then came the DUMBEST question EVER
Did you have problems coming through the tunnel today?
I asked if she taught geography, and guess what. SHE DIDNT!!
I rest my case
 
Guest

RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 7:35 am

PanAm,

You're right, not many people would care, but it would probably be in your interest to avoid developing bad habits (re:inaccurate & misleading posts).

Firstly, this is a source whose accuracy I don't trust, ie.CNN.

Secondly, if the article is accurate, it depends upon the UK finding Bin Laden first, and bringing him to justice.

Thirdly, it may well be that Bin Laden is not given the death penalty, irrespective of what the UK government's position/opinion on this is; the death penalty may not be chosen, or if it is true that some US states don't have such a penalty, the trial may occur in one of these states; again, irrespective of whether a majority want Bin Laden to die or not.

Last of all, there is generally a different attitude in Europe, as regards the death penalty-there are many reasons;

1) Religiously immoral

2) The possibility of innocence

3) The belief that the capital execution of the guilty party merely represents revenge in its lowest form.

I'm not against the death penalty personally (I used to be), but capital punishment is not the preferred mode of revenge in Europe.

Regards
 
Alpha 1
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 7:36 am

I have a feeling that OBL, even if he's captured by British troops, would be turned over to US authorities before he left Afghanistan. I think that EU law applies to people being held inside an EU nation.

And I think it's doubtful he'll be captured. He's as much a lowly coward as he is a bully, and he'll take the coward's way out by killing himself before he let himself be captured.

And no, Scotty, he didn't fly the planes, but it was his orders that lead to the attacks, and in the US he would be tried for about 3000 counts or so of 1st Degree Murder. That would make him eligible for the Death Sentence.

And don't get so picky about the name of the U.K. People have known that country by both England and the U.K. for ages, and it's silly to make an issue of it.
 
Scotty
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 8:01 am

Yeah, I suppose it depends who catches him. if anyone.

Btw, in response to the following pearls of wisdom :

"Who cares, you know what I am talking about"

Actually, I care and so do about 55 million other people who live in the UK (not England).

"And don't get so picky about the name of the U.K. People have known that country by both England and the U.K. for ages, and it's silly to make an issue of it"

Well, I will get picky, as the name of the UK is NOT England. The UK contains four countries and is not an interchangeable term for England

These comments just about sum up why so many people in the world regard the US as failing to possess any understanding of anybody else's country. Keep going and you will alienate even your friends, of which I am one. We try to understand your country, especially at this time. All we ask is that you try to understand ours.

Thanks to Singapore Air and Capt. Picard for appreciating the point which I am trying to make

Scotty
 
Hepkat
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 8:10 am

If Osama's captured by the British, then the U.S. has to petition his extradition. It's not possible for the U.K. to simply hand him over in Afghanistan. Also, once a suspect is in E.U. custody, it then becomes IMPOSSIBLE for that suspect to be extradited to a country where he would face the death penalty, REGARDLESS of where he was physically arrested or being held. The U.S. would have to guarantee to the U.K. government that he would not face capital punishment before he can be handed over. This has always been the case, and will not be changed for this situation.

If Osama were to be extradited to the U.S., he would not be facing state charges, but federal. Therefore, it doesn't matter in which state he's tried, a suspect can be given the federal death penalty in every state of the union. Someone mentioned that maybe he can be tried in a state that does not have capital punishment. This can only happen if he committed a state crime in a state that does not have capital punishment.

That being said, I think one of two things will happen. If Osama's captured by an E.U ally, he will be sent before some international tribunal, either in The Hague or in Belgium. If convicted, he will be sentenced to life in prison without parole. If he's captured by U.S. troops, he will immediately be whisked away to some secret American territory to face a military tribunal. When he's finally convicted, he will face the death penalty amid deafeningly loud objections from the E.U. allies. After his head has rolled, indignant E.U. countries will threaten to reassess their relationship with the Bush administration.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 8:19 am

That being said, I think one of two things will happen. If Osama's captured by an E.U ally, he will be sent before some international tribunal, either in The Hague or in Belgium. If convicted, he will be sentenced to life in prison without parole. If he's captured by U.S. troops, he will immediately be whisked away to some secret American territory to face a military tribunal. When he's finally convicted, he will face the death penalty amid deafeningly loud objections from the E.U. allies. After his head has rolled, indignant E.U. countries will threaten to reassess their relationship with the Bush administration.

Are you serious with that last sentence, Hepkat? Or was that just a joke? I'd really like to know.

Because, first of all, if you're serious, you're nuts. The EU won't "reassess the relationship" with the U.S. if the U.S. justifiably executes a man responsible for thousands of deaths on U.S. soil. And if they do scream an yell about it, let 'em. I don't think that will happen, although some ultra-leftist souls, and those who always can find something to complain about the U.S. for, will surely raise their voices. Let them yell. He deserved to die.

 
Hepkat
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 8:39 am

I'm dead serious. And if you don't believe me, let's just wait until the Europeans start commenting on this thread.
 
jm-airbus320
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 8:46 am

Hmmm I wonder what AI would say about this one?

Jm-airbus320
 
VonRichtofen
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Silverfox

Mon Dec 10, 2001 8:48 am

She probably thought you meant Windsor Ontario.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 8:49 am

I'm dead serious. And if you don't believe me, let's just wait until the Europeans start commenting on this thread.

ROTFLMAO. You may be serious, but you're also certifiable, if you think the EU would be idiotic enough to do such a think over Osama Bin Laden!  Laugh out loud

And guess what? A few Europeans on here don't constitute the thinking of the EU governments, does it?

The fact is, Hepkat, the EU wouldn't "reassess" ANYTHING if the U.S. captures this mutt, tries him, and then executes him for mass murder. If there was ever a case for the Death Sentence-and I'm not one who is a proponent of the Death Penalty in most cases-then this lowlife is the poster child for such a sentence. The EU, giving the U.S. a hard time over THIS? Don't make me laugh. Oh, too late-you already made me laugh.
 
Guest

RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 9:13 am

Thanks for the correction regarding the death penalty/federal/state courts.

I think Alpha has a point when he says that a few European members don't consitute a wide European spectrum of opinion/thinking-although I do think we get a good 'flavour' of European thoughts and attitudes around here!  Big grin ; I don't know what the legalities of the whole thing are though, and it may well be that the UK would be (legally) unable to hand over Ozzie to the US without a formal guarantee of no dealth penalty from the US............*IF* all this is indeed true, and *IF* the UK forces capture him first.

Isn't it more likely that Ozzie will either kill himself, or be killed in 'mysterious' circumstances?

I think it would be a lot less hassle for all concerned if Ozzie just did the job himself........and perhaps symbolically advantageous to the US in that they could label it as 'the coward's last resort' or similar-that might deal a pyschological blow to his cronies (or may not....)

Regards
 
PanAm747
Topic Author
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 11:01 am

>>I think it would be a lot less hassle for all concerned if Ozzie just did the job himself........and perhaps symbolically advantageous to the US in that they could label it as 'the coward's last resort' or similar-that might deal a pyschological blow to his cronies (or may not....)<<

Much like Hitler in WWII.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
Guest

RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 11:08 am

If the SAS (the only British Force hunting him) found him, I am sure they would shoot him first, and ask questions later. You can make up BS, that you where concerned he was booby trapped, or that he had a concealed weapon, etc. I do not think he will be taken alive, even if he tries to!
Iain
 
LH423
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:33 pm

You live near Windsor?, yes i said, then came the DUMBEST question EVER
Did you have problems coming through the tunnel today?


Siverfox: You apparantly know as much about North American geography as the average North American knows about Europe, or you must not get out much. If that's the "DUMBEST" question you've "EVER" heard, you must not. If you did know our geography you would know that the city neighbouring Detroit just across the river in Canada is Windsor, Ontario. And much like there is a tunnel connecting the UK and France, there is one connecting the US and Canada underneath the river. I don't mind the fact that you want to criticize people for calling the UK "England", because I, too, think that it is an error. However, please don't take such an arrogant tone, especially when you are wrong.

Personally, as an anti-Capital Punishment "leftie", I agree that any country that does manage to catch bin Laden alive should not extradite him to the US unless the American government agrees to not kill him. As much as I would like to see him dead, I don't believe that governments should be in charge of the practice, no matter the crime. Also, I think we put him in the general population of any Federal Prison, our prisoners will take care of the matter on their own.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
PHLflyer
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:57 pm

Well said, LH423. Silverfox had some excellent points until he was caught with his pants down about Windsor. Although I am Pro-capital punishment conservative, I think killing him would be exactly what he wants, to be a martyr. Anyway, I think there would be a few inmates that might fancy a well educated Middle Eastern boy friend at whatever prison he would end up at.
 
PanAm747
Topic Author
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 1:11 pm

>>I think killing him would be exactly what he wants, to be a martyr.<<

That's what Tim McVeigh wanted too, but he isn't.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
PHLflyer
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 1:25 pm

I believe there are millions of radical islamic fundementalist where as there are only a few thousand ultra right wing kooks like Tim McVeigh.
 
JetService
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 1:45 pm

Silverfox, did you know Windsor, Ontario is a stones-throw away from Detroit? That's what she meant. You didn't know about Windsor? Maybe if you stuck around that teacher, she may have taught you a bit about geography. (BTW, Ontario is a Canadian province)  Big grin

But what the hell. That story is a good one. You can go spread the stereotype of 'dumb-Yanks' to your buddies.  Insane
"Shaddap you!"
 
carmy
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 1:46 pm

I think the British have the right to do whatever they want to if they capture Osama.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 1:49 pm

Carmy, what if the American's capture him? Do we have the right to do whatever we want with the bastard?
 
carmy
Posts: 590
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 4:06 pm

Sure, the Americans have every right to do anything to him, as long as it's consistent with what Americans have been preaching all the time, which is that he is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law, he is subject to an open and fair trial, and that he is treated humanely. But if Great Britain captures him instead, then it's up to Great Britain to accord him a trial according to British law, or decide if they wish to turn him over to the US. Seems logical to me.
 
Novair_332
Posts: 75
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 7:59 pm

We´re lucky that he wasn´t in Sweden, "lifetime" in prison is 12 years here.. and you get a TV, Video, stereo and a phone on the room.
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Iainhol

Mon Dec 10, 2001 8:18 pm

I think Osama being killed is the last people most people in the intelligence world want. Look at how useful Ahmed Ressam's testimony has been in locating other terrorists and thwarting future plots. If he dies, so what? Its not like he's the only terrorist in the world...there are thousands backing him.
 
Banco
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 8:37 pm

OK, just to close down on the UK, England thing - the United Kingdom is made of four countries, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The English make up the majority of the population with about 48 million of the 57 million total. But, they are not the same thing, so if you are a Scot, being called English is hardly likely to endear you to a person. Try confusing a Canadian with someone from the US and you'll get a similar response.

It does remind me of the article that a German magazine did for the Scottish Tourist Board that said that Scotland was one of the most beautiful parts of England....! They went berserk! The irony is that the English have often used England and Britain interchangeably, much to the irritation of everyone else. Whilst it is annoying, it is actually a compliment, saying that the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish are "the same as us", even if the other countries wouldn't want to be! That's beginning to die out though as English nationalism is on the rise, as well as people being more considerate in their use of descriptions.

Back to the subject at hand; whilst the UK government may have said publicly that they wouldn't hand old Bed Linen over unless the US agreed not to execute him, I am sure that the UK is in the same position as the US and would much prefer that he never came to trial at all. Whether he is captured by US or British forces, I feel sure he will not live long enough to see any kind of trial or extradition hearing. Holding a trial will merely offer a focus to the extremists, and no-one wants that.

Incidentally, there are various arguments going on about the SAS in Afghanistan. Because their operations are never publicised (there's no official word that they're even there) some of the troops feel that as far as the US people are concerned, they might as well stay at home, since the US Special Forces are getting all the coverage. The price they pay for operational effectiveness I suppose, but I think they'd like some of their successes broadcast. The only time it was obvious they were ever in action was when they took the Iranian Embassy in London live on the television!
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
ryanb741
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 8:41 pm

From what I've been hearing on the news the only coverage the US Special Forces have been getting is being blown to smithereens by their own bombs.....

Conversely, 'newspapers', like The Sun and The Mail would lead us to believe that the US is hardly involved and that the SAS are doing everything. Nothing like impartial journalism, eh!  Smile
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Banco
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 8:56 pm

Yes, true enough Ryanb741!

I always find it amazing that the country that possesses the BBC can also produce The Sun!!! Big grin
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Scotty
Posts: 1846
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 9:20 pm

Cheers Banco!

Re Bed Linen, no matter what eventually happens to him, I'd like to see him before a court (preferably in the US) to hear what he has to say, especially since they've now found the video of him expressing his delight that the whole WTC attack went even better (from his perspective) than he'd ever hoped it would.

Scotty
 
ryanb741
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 9:32 pm

It's all been sorted out now - click on the link below:

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/12/10/ret.hoon.laden/
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Guest

RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 10:25 pm

So is this a case of 'Hoon the goon'? Big grin

Regards
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 10:27 pm

Or Hoon the loon? Big grin
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Scotty
Posts: 1846
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Mon Dec 10, 2001 10:39 pm

End of topic, looks like.

Now, who wants to talk about a big meeting at MAN again next year??
 
Alpha 1
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Tue Dec 11, 2001 12:19 am

I'd rather talk about if Hepkat was expressing his own view, that he'd have a problem if the U.S. executes Bin Laden for ordering the murder of thousands of people, or if somehow, he think what he said would represent a majority of opinion in Europe.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Tue Dec 11, 2001 12:48 am

HUS9746, apparently you live under a rock. A video tape was just uncovered recently showing him talking in-depth about the attack shortly after it took place, saying something like "it did more damange than we thought it would". That shows prior knowledge. Plus the U.S. goverment has show ample evidence to other governments around the world that OBL is behind this. So, yes, he's done something very wrong, he ordered the destruction of those buildings, and in the process, killed thousands.

And so he'll be a hero to many misguided souls. He's already a hero. All Martyrs, if you want to call him that, share one charachteristics: they're dead.
 
eal401
Posts: 451
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Tue Dec 11, 2001 12:50 am

Given the slating I received for directing critisicm at the US recently, I could make some VERY interesting comments about some of the responses above!

But frankly, I've got better things to do!  Smile

To be honest, the US can do what the hell they like with OBL if they capture him, but if we find him, then we must respect the laws under which we operate.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Tue Dec 11, 2001 1:07 am

Given the slating I received for directing critisicm at the US recently, I could make some VERY interesting comments about some of the responses above!

But frankly, I've got better things to do!


Then why did you even bother to reply then? If being flamed bothers you so much, then why even post an opinion?
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: What Is England Thinking?

Tue Dec 11, 2001 1:10 am

I think if we catch Bin Laden we should hand him over to the US 'nearly dead' if you catch my drift. Sure, OBL may be missing an arm or two, sure he may have had his genitals chopped off and sewn into his own mouth but he'll still be alive and therefore we can keep up our end of the bargain  Big grin
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
eal401
Posts: 451
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RE: Alpha 1

Tue Dec 11, 2001 1:18 am

To put forward my opinion on the topic, if you read the last line of my post.

I'll let the patronising comments about the UK pass, because people are entitled to their opinion.
 
eal401
Posts: 451
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Tue Dec 11, 2001 1:25 am

And before anyone thinks about giving out more stick, how about this?

UK forces find OBL, but instead of saying anything, radio US forces and let them get him! "We was never there, guv!" I think that would get around a few issues and be to everyone's satisfaction.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Tue Dec 11, 2001 1:39 am

Eal401, I think that's precisely what would happen if such a situation arose!!  Big thumbs up
 
Jaspike
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RE:HUS9746

Tue Dec 11, 2001 1:48 am

There is evidence that he is to blame - a video has been found near Jalalabad which shows a conversation with Bin Laden. It shows Osama laughing and being happy when he heard that the twin towers had fallen.

He also says that he expected only the tops of the towers would fall, so he was very happy when he heard they had both completely fallen.

HUS9746, are you on Bin Laden's side?

Josh
 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6419
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Tue Dec 11, 2001 3:03 am

Let's bring those speculations a little further. Imagine that OBL ends up in Britain, and Britain refuses to forward him to the USA.

Would that qualify Britain as a "terrorist supporting country"?

The USA (and a hundred other countries including Britain) have committed themselves to knock down on terrorist and torrorist supporting countries. Would that mean that the USA (and 99 other countries) have committed themselves to bomb Britain?

If OBL get caught in Afghanistan, then I would assume that whoever catches him will be clever enough to let him stay in Afghanistan and let the locals take care of him. After all he has done much worse terror in Afghanistan than anywhere else.

Regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
gkirk
Posts: 23346
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RE: What Is England Thinking?

Tue Dec 11, 2001 3:15 am

What is England thinking...???
What a stupid thing to say. Its, as Scotty pointed out, the UK government, If you think we in Scotland and Wales, Northern Ireland are just going to lie down and let people be as ignorant as that, you've got another thing coming pal.  Pissed  Pissed
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Guest

RE: What Is England Thinking?

Tue Dec 11, 2001 3:43 am

If I were a US Ranger, I would certainly not hesitate more than 0.0001 seconds to pull the trigger when OBL's head pops up out of his cave....

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