tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 7:29 am

Ok, I will pose to you this simple question and with what happened, please give me your opinions...and for God's sake, keep it CIVIL.

Ok, Israel raided a house belonging to the Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade that was bomb labaratory. Four militants were killed belonging to the Brigade. The raid came as a response to a gunman's attack on an Israeli wedding hall. I guess the first question is, is this attack justified?

My response to it, is yes. Should they have killed the militants? I don't know what happened during the raid, so I dont know if they had any other choice. There are times when you just cant arrest somebody, as in when they defend themselves with arms.

Second situation, Al-Aqsa martyr's Brigade staged an attack in a Jerusalem shopping area today, wounding 20 civilians as a response to the killing of their militants. The gunman was killed by Israeli policeman. Was this attack justified?

My response is no, because they attacked civilians. I suppose I can understand they're being upset over the deaths of their militants, but I don't side with their ideals. No matter how upset or suppressed you feel you are, don't attack civilians.

Now, let's hear your ideas...and for crying out loud, KEEP IT CIVIL!!!


Tzvika
NO URLS in signature
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 9:31 am

Yes the attack was justified (IMHO) but is ultimately futile. In a climate of injustice all Israel is doing is like attacking a multi-headed hydra. You cut off one head and another 2 grow in its place.....
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 9:51 am

Which attack do you think was justified?
NO URLS in signature
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 9:52 am

The Israeli raid on the bomb factory, not the terrorist attack!
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 9:55 am

Alright, just wondering
NO URLS in signature
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

RE: Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 10:20 am

The Israeli raid on the bomb factory, not the terrorist attack!

Aren't they all terrorist attacks?

Unless Israel has an army base at the local mall...

Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

RE: Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 10:23 am

I mean the Palestinian militia attacks
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
EmiratesLover
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2000 11:40 pm

RE: Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Wed Jan 23, 2002 11:45 pm

Israel is justified in arresting and apprehending terrorist who commit atrocities against innocent civilians, but it is NOT justified in occupying the Palestinian territories and dehumanizing people beacuse of who they are.

Israel's war on terror is necessary, it's war on the Palestinian people, in the form of occupation, checkpoints, collective punishment, human rights abuses and disproportionate military violence is vile and vicious.There is a big difference between arresting and punishing terrorists and victimizing an entire population.
 
Guest

RE: Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 1:30 am

sure; but when the terrorists hide themselves AMONG the CIVIL population, what are you doing??!!

There are 2 possibilities when you locate a terrorist or a terror cell:

1. you go and bomb a whole building; or you raze to the ground a whole village or a whole town (= exactly what Assad made in Hama 2 decades ago: 5-20'000 dead; BTW, a member of these forums called "Ceilidh", who was complaining about Israel's behaviour towards the Palestinians, cited Assad's action as an exemple...). It is also the way Russia is operating in Chechnya.


2. instead of blowing up the whole building, you make use of the latest technology and target the terrorist on the most precise way possible;
instead of razing the whole village or town you go and "occupy" it (for a few hours/days), you close it and you find the wanted terrorists.



Israel is applying method Nr 2.
But according to EmirLover and other unbiased neutral observers, the IDF shouldn't even do this: Israel should just wait for the next attack to happen, and the next, and still the next...
The 4 hamas terrorists who were killed that night had organized many bomb attacks in which over hundred Israeli civilians died, and they were preparing other bombings: a huge bomb lab was found there, full of bombs, bomb belts and chemicals. There was a fight, 4 Israeli soldiers were hurt in the exange of fire.
 
EmiratesLover
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2000 11:40 pm

RE: Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Fri Jan 25, 2002 12:00 am

Why cant you just end the illegal and brutal military occupation which creates the terrorist in the first place?I dont understand why the Palestinians would have become terrorist in the first place if they had not been made to live under such appalling conditions as a result of Israel's merciless military occupation.Do you really expect to live in safety when you are subjugating and dehumanizing a people next door ?
 
Guest

RE: Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Fri Jan 25, 2002 4:48 am

end the illegal and brutal military occupation which creates the terrorist in the first place?

This statement is not true. PROOF: Before Israel occupied the territories the Arabs still attempted to destroy Israel. So why should they give up on the territories if security is still far from guaranteed? Answer that please.

Do you really expect to live in safety when you are subjugating and dehumanizing a people next door ?

No, Israel does not expect to live in safety with its current occupation. For this reason Israel has an a military appropraite to a first world power, a police force wealthier than Russia's, an airline as secure as Air Force One and a border patrol that operates as a paramiltary. Israel expects this violence and tries as hard as it can to diminish it.

TNNH
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Fri Jan 25, 2002 7:47 am

At the end of the day this type of Israeli attack is IMHO justified purely out of necessity. The terrorists aren't exactly disarming themselves so the Israelis have to do it themselves. This doesn't relate to the wider picture of why the violence occurs from both sides in the first place, but that's a very long, bumpy road that we've gone down countless times on this forum already.

At the end of the day I am sure Israel would love to be in a position where it can spend less on the military and more on it's economy, but necessity dictates its hardline stance at present.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Fri Jan 25, 2002 7:53 am

Very well put Ryanb741. I think its less of whether they like doing it or not, but rather an issue of necessity, and right now, its definitely necessary.
NO URLS in signature
 
EmiratesLover
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2000 11:40 pm

RE: Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Fri Jan 25, 2002 11:38 pm

``This statement is not true. PROOF: Before Israel occupied the territories the Arabs still attempted to destroy Israel. So why should they give up on the territories if security is still far from guaranteed? Answer that please. ''


Wrong, wrong.
The two Arab-Israeli wars that occurred before the Six Day war were both started by Israel.
In 1948 the Israelis started it by attacking Arab towns and villages that were non-belligerent and which were not even included as part of the Jewish state as part of the UN Plan.The Israelis had expelled something in the range of 200000-300000 Arabs from their homes and villages by the time the neighbouring Arab states ``invaded'' Palestine.In my book, attacking peaceful villages and expelling people from their homes is a provocation to war in it's own right.I expect reasonable minded people to agree.Obviously that does not include you........
.....that is to say - I don't expect you to agree.

Then there was the war of 1956, where Israel attacked Egypt.Apologists of Israel are never tired of asserting that Nasser's decision to nationalize the Suez was what justified the decision to attack a fellow nation, but it doesn't fool me.Attacking a neighbouring nation for nationalizing an infrastructure project......that sound remarkably crude to me.

The Arabs have been trying so hard to destroy Israel that they swallowed their injured pride and negiotiated with the Israeli government at Madrid and after in the vain hope that the latter would fulfill at least some of it's obligations under international law and UN resoltions.Even if they had not offered peace, Israel's occupation of Arab land was always ilegitimate as it was acquired by force, and so the attitude of the Arabs themselves is essentially besides the point.

Instead of wasting you time on this forum parroting your hardline Zionist views that even many of the Zionist themselves have accepted is part of their mythology, I would advise you to read some balanced history.

Recommended Reading..

Arabs and Israelis for Beginners Ron David
The Rise and Fall of Palestine Norman Finkelstein
From Stones to Statehood Phyllis Bennis
The Birth of Israel Simha Flapan
The Birth of the Palestinian refugee Problem Benny Morris
Original Sins Beit Hallahmi
The Founding Myths of Israeli Politics Zeev Sternhell
The Zionist Connection Alfred Lilienthal
.......and many others.

PS BTW none of these books are by Arabs so you don't have to waste your time reading the works of people who may be biased simply beacuse of their ethnicity.
 
Guest

RE: Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Sat Jan 26, 2002 1:18 am

"some balanced history."

I can't stop laughing!!!



***




"``This statement is not true. PROOF: Before Israel occupied the territories the Arabs still attempted to destroy Israel. So why should they give up on the territories if security is still far from guaranteed? Answer that please. ''


- Wrong, wrong."

* For Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Tanzim, Al-Aksa brigades, PFLP, PLO and others, the word "occupied territories" refers to ALL the strip of land between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean; some were "occupied" in 1948, and some in 1967, but this detail is not important.

When they say "end the occupation", it means "liquidate Israel".

 
milldoh
Posts: 482
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2001 11:59 pm

RE: Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Sat Jan 26, 2002 2:06 am

LMAO, check out the original post:

Now, let's hear your ideas...and for crying out loud, KEEP IT CIVIL!!!

WELL DONE GUYS!!!

 Big thumbs up

EmiratesLover: Instead of wasting you time on this forum parroting your hardline Zionist views

LOL  Big thumbs up
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Sat Jan 26, 2002 2:18 am

Thanks Milldoh, I knew it would get ugly, but I could try, no? Oh well.... *sighs*

Once again, recent events reflect my question above. Israel kills a top, terrorist leader in an attack earlier today. He was proven to have killed and planned out attacks against Israelis. Was this justified? In my opinion, yes. Numerous times Arafat had not arrested him, so Israeli's had the right to take it into their own hands.

And how do they respond? By using a suicide bomber in the heart of a Tel Aviv shopping district, injuring 24 people (oh my, I better not forget to mention the death of the Palestinian suicide bomber, otherwise I be branded racist). Is this justified? I repeatedly stress absolutely not. Never is attacks on civilians like this justified, especially by means of terrorism.

Oh well, really sad.

NO URLS in signature
 
milldoh
Posts: 482
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2001 11:59 pm

RE: Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Sat Jan 26, 2002 3:44 am

Tbar220: I'm not surprised. Turning posts from opinion to a skewed history of the entire region is nothing new. Just goes to show you how mature everyone is. Ah well... Big grin

I just hope people can see the difference between someone blowing themselves up in the middle of a bunch of civilians and dropping bombs on strategic targets.
 
Guest

RE: Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Sat Jan 26, 2002 4:21 am

The two Arab-Israeli wars that occurred before the Six Day war were both started by Israel.

The first war after the War of Independence (that was unarguably started by invading Arab countries the day after Israel's founding, coincidental timing hunh) was the 1956 Suez Canal War.

The 1956 Suez Canal War was not started by Israel, this is a blatant falsehood. You are forgetting many important details, words like fedayeen, Czechoslovakia, defiance.

Let me help you. Since 1949, the Israeli-Gaza/Egyptian border had been a series of extraordinary headaches for Israel. Smal scale Palestinian commando raids from Egyptian territory terrorized Israeli families living near the border. They murdered farmers, children, family, animals. Stole supplies, materials, animals, and basically made life very difficult for the Israelis.

Israel grew fed up and retaliated into Gaza for these Palestinian commando raids from Egyptian territory. Yet instead of attempting to restrain this impediment to the UN ceasefire agreements from the 1948 War of Independence, Egypt armed themselves to the teeth which made many countries very nervous with Nasser in charge.

Let me remind you in September 1955 Egypt arranged to buy 200 million worth of advanced Soviet weaponry through Czechoslovakia which was really a Soviet-Egyptian arms deal. This scared the hell out of UK, US, and Israel as communism was still a worldwide enemy back there of all countries and a unilateral arming like that was very threatning.

Than Egypt responded with a dramatic, "crude" and crass act of defiance. He invaded the Canal Zone and and proclaimed its revenues would now be Egyptian, not British or French.

Well this is what started the 1956 War. Yes Israeli troops were the first ones in on October 1956, but Egypt had left the Israelis little choice. Only after the Israelis left the Sinai in March of 57, did the UN act as a buffer between Palestinain terrorists and Israel to prevent another flare up.

As for the War of Independence, I have discussed this another thread, find it. Israel was unilterally invaded on the first night of its independence by countries intent on wiping it off the map. They of course, did no such thing.

TNNH
 
EmiratesLover
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2000 11:40 pm

RE: Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Sat Jan 26, 2002 7:39 pm

When they say "end the occupation", it means "liquidate Israel".


Now YOU are making me laugh.
Interestingly, there is an open-minded Israeli organization calling themselves just that......do they want to liquidate their own country I wonder.
Does international law and successive UN resolutions repeatedly declaring Israel's occupation utterly illegitimate also want to destroy Israel.Do the peace groups in the US & around the world headed by humane Jews and others also deep down inside the liquidation of Israel ? I wonder.

``I just hope people can see the difference between someone blowing themselves up in the middle of a bunch of civilians and dropping bombs on strategic targets.''

Trouble is those ``stategic target'' often include place where innocent people are living.Perhaps you dont know how many innocent Palestiniand have been killed by these attacks on ``strategic targets''. I also hope people can understand the difference between the violence of an occupying army with a record of all types of barbaric human rights abuses ( you name it, they've done it ) financed by US taxpayers and the violence of a people living under the daily reality of a military occupation that always has been illegal and would like nothing better than a chance to livea normal life in their own country.

``The first war after the War of Independence (that was unarguably started by invading Arab countries the day after Israel's founding, coincidental timing hunh) was the 1956 Suez Canal War. ''

You just don't get it do you......
The war had actually started before the Isralis declared their independence.The Israelis has already started ethnically cleansing Palestine BEFORE the independence declaration in the form of the infamous Plan Dalet. ( March 10 onwards ).By the time the Israelis declared their ``independence '' they had already driven out hundreds of thousands of Palestinian from their homes and lands.If somebody were to do ethnic cleansing and a land grab on this scale anywhere in the world, it would be considered an act of war....that had actually been put into place BEFORE the ``invasion'' of the Arab forces.So why would the Arabs have attacked if they were so poorly armed unless the Israelis had ethnically cleansed their land in the first place.

``Let me help you. Since 1949, the Israeli-Gaza/Egyptian border had been a series of extraordinary headaches for Israel. Smal scale Palestinian commando raids from Egyptian territory terrorized Israeli families living near the border. They murdered farmers, children, family, animals. Stole supplies, materials, animals, and basically made life very difficult for the Israelis. ''

Really ? I read somewhere in a book by Benny Morris that most of the ``infiltrations ' were Palestinians who had been ethnically cleansed from their homes and lands and who were in a few cases only a few hundred metres away from what was once THEIR homes and THEIR lands illegally confiscated by Israel to provide place for Europens immigrants.Think of it...living in a squalid refugee camp only a short distance away from where you lived while people from another part of the world were enjoying what once was yours, all simply because of who you are and who you are not......I think a lot of black South Africans would be able to identify with this, although you, sitting nice and comfy in the US with all those civli rights etc would not.

Besides, the infiltrations were a convenient excuse for the Zionist leadership under Ben Gurion to attack neighbouring Arab states as a pretext for later expansionist efforts.

``Let me remind you in September 1955 Egypt arranged to buy 200 million worth of advanced Soviet weaponry through Czechoslovakia which was really a Soviet-Egyptian arms deal. This scared the hell out of UK, US, and Israel as communism was still a worldwide enemy back there of all countries and a unilateral arming like that was very threatning.''

Buying arms from the wrong side is an act of war, you seem to be insinuating....well if that is the case, I am surprised that the 3'rd World War did not break out sooner.It was not unilateral at all - do you think the Israelis have not been arming themselves all this time.Surely buying 200M worth of arms from the US is not used as a pretext for attacking Israel by Arabs states...or else there would have been even more wars than there have been.

``Than Egypt responded with a dramatic, "crude" and crass act of defiance. He invaded the Canal Zone and and proclaimed its revenues would now be Egyptian, not British or French. ''

How he could have invaded the Canal Zone if it was in his own territory is beyond me.

``As for the War of Independence, I have discussed this another thread, find it''

Like I have nothing better in the world to do.

``Israel was unilterally invaded on the first night of its independence by countries intent on wiping it off the map. They of course, did no such thing. ''

It was NOT a unilateral action - the Israelis had already begun forcing the Arabs out of their country through massacres, deportations, psychological warfare etc.Even if they were intent on wiping Israel out, they could not have, Israel was much stronger and the majority of the fighting occurred in the territories which were to have become the Palestinian's state - thanks to Israel's aggression and ruthlessness it did not.







 
Guest

RE: Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Sun Jan 27, 2002 2:10 am

"When they say "end the occupation", it means "liquidate Israel".


- Now YOU are making me laugh"

* really? there's sadly nothing to laugh about...you should just open your ears and listen to what sheik Yassin, Hezbollah and Iran, PFLP leaders and PLO members are saying...
The "moderate" PLO politician Faisal Husseini declared in an interview last summer that "the Palestinians' strategic goal has remained unchanged: THE LIBERATION OF PALESTINE FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA".

Take a map and look what is THEN left for Israel...
 
Guest

RE: Was The Recent Attack Justified?

Sun Jan 27, 2002 8:09 am

Ok a few points.

On the War of Independence if the Arab invasion had nothing to do with Israel's creation and only was prompted by the Plan D why then did the Arab states wait untill Israel's first night of independence to strike when Plan D had been ongoing for several months.

Also, during "Plan D" no Jewish troops ever set foot on any of the Arab country's land like Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, or Iraq, so why did Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, or Iraq invade the new Israel?

Also, during Plan D, no Jewish troops evacuated Arab villages in the area set for a future Arab state as created by the UNSCOP report, Jewish troops simply evacuated Arabs deemed a security risk living inside the borders for what was to become the future Jewish state.

Also, Plan D was not created for no reason. Just because the Palestinians don't have some fancy name, doesn't mean they didn't torture, massacre, steal from, and terrorize Jews living in pre-1948 Palestine. There was a reason Plan D was created, as unfortunate as it was, the Palestinians had made life for the Jewish settlers hell, and the Jews were taking measures to make sure they would not be able to harrass, murder, terrorize, or steal from Jews once the State of Israel was created. Just because there is no fancy "Plan...." name doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Plan D was created for a reason, as unfortunate as it was.

As for the 56 Suez Canal Crisis. Well, I don't understand why you think that when the Arabs attack Israel it is a "convenient excuse" yet when the Israelis act it is a provacation for war. Kind of two faced hunh EmiratesLover?

Anyway back to the Suez Canal crisis. The unilatteral military arms buildup from the Soviet Union prompted very real fears in Israel and the UK and the US that two things were going to happen. 1) Israel was going to be invaded and destroyed 2) that the communist threat ws going to be alive and real in the middle east and this was against the strategic national interests of the US and the UK and reason to stop it.

Your forgetting what this felt for Israel. Imagine if tomorow Cuba ordered 200 million dollars (1956 money, now like half a billion) of advanced North Korean offensive weaponry? Would the US ignore this new and deadly threat? No. Neither did Israel.

Why do you not understand these things?

TNNH



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BlueLine, Okie and 17 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos