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Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Sun Feb 10, 2002 2:53 pm

A quick search on a search-engine on 'christianity denominations and sects' netted me with the following. Why the need for so many sects/denominations? Are teaching/beliefs in each sects so different that they just had to break off? Educate me.

African Methodist Episcopal
African Methodist Episcopal Zion
African Orthodox Church
American Baptist Churches USA
Anglican Catholic Church
Antiochian Orthodox
Armenian Evangelical Church
Armenian Orthodox
Assemblies of God
Associated Gospel Churches of Canada
Association of Vineyard Churches
Baptist Bible Fellowship
Branch Davidian
Brethren in Christ
Bruderhof Communities
Byzantine Catholic Church
Calvary Chapel
Cell Church
Celtic Orthodox
Charismatic Episcopal Church
Christian and Missionary Alliance
Christian Reformed Church
Christian Science
Church of God (Anderson)
Church of God (Cleveland)
Church of God (Seventh Day)
Church of God in Christ
Church of God of Prophecy
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Church of Scotland
Church of the Brethren
Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America
Church of the Nazarene
Church of the New Jerusalem
Church of the United Brethren in Christ
Church Universal and Triumphant
Churches of Christ
Congregational Christian Churches
Coptic Orthodox
Cumberland Presbyterian Church
Disciples of Christ
Evangelical Covenant Church
Evangelical Formosan Church
Evangelical Free Church
Evangelical Lutheran Church
Evangelical Methodist Church
Evangelical Presbyterian
Fellowship of Christian Assemblies
Fellowship of Grace Brethren
Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches
Free Methodist
Free Presbyterian
Free Will Baptist
Greek Orthodox
Hutterian Brethren
Independent Fundamental Churches of America
Indian Orthodox
International Church of the Foursquare Gospel
International Churches of Christ
Jehovah's Witnesses
Living Church of God
Local Church
Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod
Mar Thoma Syrian Church
Messianic Judaism
Moravian Church
Nation of Yahweh
New Frontiers International
Old Catholic Church
Orthodox Church in America
Orthodox Presbyterian
Plymouth Brethren
Presbyterian Church (USA)
Presbyterian Church in America
Primitive Baptist
Protestant Reformed Church
Reformed Church in America
Reformed Churches of Australia
Reformed Presbyterian Church
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Revival Centres International
Romanian Orthodox
Russian Orthodox
Serbian Orthodox
Seventh-day Adventist
Society of Friends
Southern Baptist Convention
Syrian Orthodox
True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days
Unification Church
United Church of Canada
United Church of Christ
United Church of God
United Free Church of Scotland
United Methodist Church
United Reformed Church
Uniting Church in Australia
Unity Church
Unity Fellowship Church
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
Virtual Churches
Waldensian Church
Way International, The
Web Directories
Worldwide Church of God
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RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Sun Feb 10, 2002 3:42 pm

I think a lot of them are cults, and don't have anything to do with mainline Christianity -- they just have a "Christian" sounding name to name them more mainstream, for instance, the Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) Or the Branch Davidians, the cult involved in the Waco incident.

RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Sun Feb 10, 2002 3:44 pm

I guess you would get many denominations from the use of Iesegesis (reading into the text ones own meaning) rather than exgesis ( actually using the text to determine the meaning). Not all of the ones listed actually teach different things. One thing is certain some are wrong, and if one is right then there would be a necessity to distinguish itself from the errant one. So what are some of the things they differ on? Well some deny the divinity of Christ, some deny the authority of scripture or at least put it on equal grounds with tradition or papal authority, some differ on primary means of salvation ( whether it is works or faith or the combo) some differ as to who Christ died for ( limited atonement), some differ as to whether man has free will or not, some differ on whether their is continuing revelation, etc.. What is certain is that with a proper hermenuetical appraoch and using exegesis these differences clear up. What that means is you use the Bible and only the Bible to interpret the Bible and you take it in context with who it is being written to and the purpose for it's writng.

traditionally any church that denies the trinity, is works based, or believes in continual revelation of the Word of God, but calims to be christian is held as being a cult. A quick glance at the list reveals a few of these: Some people are going to get mad  Smile

Let's take a few example's say the jehovas witness, first the term Jehovah is in fact a mistranslation, which they insist on being the true name for God. They also deny the divinity of Christ. They have a seperate translation which no Hebrew or greek scholar in their right mind is willing to accept, even the athiest ones. Actaully the problems with that religion are too numerous and sundry to list.

Branch Davidian, Waco, nuff said.

Church of God is unitarian if I am not mistaken, so they deny the divinity of Christ.

Church of Christ believes that Baptism is a requirement for salvation, a work, so chalk them up.

LDS, just take a look for yourself, not even remotely a Christian faith.

Seventh Day Adventist, continual revelation.

Chalk up just about any thing with the word unitarian in it.

gnostics believe in a special revelation only to a few.

Half the list isn't even remotely Christian.

Some of the others join together to provide a wider fund for missionary outreach, some of the various conventions. So there really isn't a doctrinal issue in these.

Really most of the Christian ones can be boiled down to a few, and they vary let me tell you. they are essentialy:

Roman Catholic
Orthodox catholic
I'm sure I forgot a few.

All Catholics differ with protestants on a fundamental level, namely justification , Protestants believe that they are justified in a legal sense of the word, meaning that they aren't really justified because of there actul status in God's eyes, but because the righteuosness of Christ is given on their behalf. So God sees Christ righteuosness not theirs. Catholics believe on the other hand that they are actually justified and worhty of some form of merit. There are other issues involved but this one is of prime importance. we can discuss these later if you wish. Best way to decide would be to actually read the Bible and see for yourself what the plain meaning is.

armenians, weslyans,and calvinists: The issue between these is whether man is toally responsible for his actions or whether god is. It is an issue of freewill here or the soverignty of God. In actuality these two aren't mutaully exclusive but these particular denominations still battle it out. Even though scripture plainly states we are chosen but free. Difficult concept and it sounds contradictory, but it isn't. All boils down to watching the Olympics. If you read the paper today and see who won the events, and then later watch a pre-recorded taping of those events you will know the outcome but it doesn't make the athletes choices any less free. Some on the strict or hyper calvinist side of the camp believe in limited atonement, meaning Christ only died for a few, plainly contradicting scripture, on the other hand the extreme armininians in actuality deny the soveriegnty of God contradicting scripture. Scripture offers a very balanced view on this and it isn't contradictory.

I'm running out of time and I'll answer back later, hope that helps a little.

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RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Sun Feb 10, 2002 4:05 pm

I agree with the others... many-- most of those are cults or non-Christian religions. And I can assure you there are more "denominations" than you posted.

Toadpipe did a good analysis from what I've read. Just to wrap it up, as far as real Protestant denominations go, their differences are quite subtle and usually have to do with the way services are conducted or slight variations on Biblical interpretation.


RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Sun Feb 10, 2002 9:05 pm

The reason is because if your start a new religion you can make $$.

RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Mon Feb 11, 2002 12:48 am

I should probably ignore this whole thread, but guys, I think you've got it all wrong.

First of all, how could you possibly compare the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a church of 10 million members worldwide, most of whom are productive and valuable members of society, to the Branch Davidians!?

Secondly, In my book, Christians are anyone who professes to believe in Christ, period. Just because people don't conform to what my beliefs in Christ are doesn't mean that I think that they are not "true Christians."
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RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Mon Feb 11, 2002 3:00 am

Please, someone enlighten me how a church by the name of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" Could be anything other that Christian? It only says that it is Christ's Church in the name.

I am an active member of this church and would be very interested to hear why people think we are not Christian.
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RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Mon Feb 11, 2002 3:10 am

These are the main tenets of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". You can see that we are indeed Christian.

The Articles of Faith
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
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RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Mon Feb 11, 2002 5:52 am

Phlflyer -- "nothing shall be added to this book." Revelation. You should not add the Book of Mormon to the Bible.

Even Joseph Smith said that when the Book of Mormon disagrees with the Bible, the Bible should take precedence. Today that has been reversed.

Up, up and away!
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RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Mon Feb 11, 2002 7:41 am

In my book, Christians are anyone who professes to believe in Christ, period

Even the devil believes in Christ. I think that a true Christian is not defined from which denomination or sect that they are involved in. A Christian simply believes salvation comes from an act of faith. Faith will save while good works will not. This act of faith is the acceptance of the grace of God. They believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He died on the cross as a sacrifice and rose from the dead on the third day. A true Christian knows that they are a sinner and has asked for God's forgiveness and has accepted the free gift of salvation. This is done in a prayer. Once this is done, a true Christian will seek to obey the teachings of the Holy Bible and turn away from what the Bible defines as sin.

Many of the churches above teach a false doctrine that deviates somehow from the Bible's teaching. I will not get into that. Yet, I believe that true Christians are more spread out than people might believe. Yet, even people who attend the "less questionable" churches might not be Christian, and this is based solely based on thier internal beliefs.


RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Mon Feb 11, 2002 2:50 pm

"nothing shall be added to this book." Revelation. You should not add the Book of Mormon to the Bible.

I'm not much for quoting scriptures, but...

Revelation 22:18 "...If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plauges that are written in this book."

That's true and everything, but, the thing is, that if you will do a little research, you will find that the book Revelation was not the last to be written, chronologically speaking. Hmmmm. So, somebody somewhere added something to the Bible.

Also, here's another Bible reference for you:

Dueteronomy 4:2 "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you..."

So, using a certain logic, the Bible should have ended at Dueteronomy, and we can basically disregard anything written after it.

The phrases in Revelation Dueteronomy refer specifically to their respective books, not the Bible as a whole. How could it mean anything else?


RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Mon Feb 11, 2002 3:46 pm

God or Gods? The Mormon church believes in 3 seperate entities the Father,Son, and Holy Spirit each are a God. They do not believe in oneness of essence. God was once a man and became God, I think this is called the doctrine of Eternal progression. Mormonism is Polytheism. I find it hard to believe that the monotheistic Jews, would believe in polytheism, and that god was only tricking them.

The atonement of Jesus in Mormonism doesn't answer for our personal sins. You gotta work for that. Seems to contradict Titus 3:5 and ephesians 2:8-9.

Not until 1978, were non-whites allowed to receive the preisthood, Why the change?

I also wonder where the church was for 1000 yrs.

The book of Mormon, also attributes various things to certain times, when in all reality they were not available yet. The Nephites had what some seems to be a 19th century compass. They also produced wheat and barley (crops common at the time of Joseph Smith) not the maize and potatoes of native Americans. Archeological evidence of the book of Mormon, or a rather lack there of. No book of Mormon cities, person, place, nation, or name has ever been found. No artifacts, inscriptions, gold plates, nothing nowhere.

KJV insofar as it is translated correctly,love that one, why don't you see how many nuetral scholars think the Inspired Version of the Bible is actually translated correctly.

Continual revelation, runs headlong into Galatians 1:8" But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned."

Most importantly I see no use of God's grace in the book of Mormon,grace by it's nature cannot be earned. Human tendency is to want to share in the glory of gaining salvation. Moromonism makes the gospel a new law. I fail to see the good news in working my way to heaven. I obey Christ out of love, and a change being wrought in me through the holy spirit, by the power of God in Christ Jesus.

RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Tue Feb 12, 2002 6:59 am

Ok, ok, Toady...

It's not like we haven't heard all that stuff before.

The thing is that I could spend copious amounts of time and energy refuting all the stuff you just wrote, and it wouldn't convince you of anything - it would just start more debates. I'm worshiping God the way I see fit, and if you have a problem with that, then so be it.

One suggestion I would make: Get your facts straight before you launch into another anti-Mormon tirade. I don't mind people disagreeing with my views, but I prefer that they do it on the basis of fact, rather than heresay.

RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Tue Feb 12, 2002 3:37 pm

You can worship whomever you wish.I am not Mormon bashing, I am stating where they delineate from Christianity.

I didn't result to hearsay, as to artifacts, the Smithsonian and the National Geographic Society have denied all Mormon claims that there is archeological evidence supporting their claims. This is in contradistinction to the Biblical evidence, see "Secular history's Confirmation of the reliability of the New testament" or F.F. Bruce Non-Christian origins.

The polytheism aspect of Mormonism, that was taken from Joseph Smiths teachings," many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son, and the Holy ghost are only one God! I say that is a strange God anyhow...All are to be crammed into one God."

God was once a man:from the teachings of Joseph Smith, "I am going to tell you how God became to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea,and take away the veil, so that you may see... It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible." You being a Mormon, should also be quite awares of the doctrine of eternal progression, whereby men can become gods also.
But we can show sources so I won't be accused of hearsay. Mormon Doctrine pp 576-577," To us, speaking in the proper infinite sense, these three are the only Gods we worship. But in addition there is an infintite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods." Teachings of the Prophet Joseph smith pg 370, "I will preach on the plurality of Gods... I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations, when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been on the plurality of Gods."

Works based salvation, from the Uniform System for Teaching families 1981 edition pp 15,17, "No one can ever be saved in his [the Heavenly Fathe's] kingdom whithout showing his faith by obeying the Lord's commandments...if we fail to keep the Lord's commandments, we will not be permitted to live with him. Christ taught that we will go to different places after the ressurection, depending on how well we have kept his commandments." This is in clear contradistinction to practically the whole book of romans and ephesians.

Atonement, did not cover our sins,"individual sin must be eliminated by obedience to God's commandments" this is in contradistinction to the Christian beleif that Christ's atoning work on the Cross did just that. This would also cover the grace issue,

The rest are easily verifaible by looking them up , non whites were allowed into the priesthood by spencer Kimball the 12th president of the Mormon Church, see DC 1989 edition pg 294. Joseph smiths translation of the KJV, That is just the opinion of scholars of the Bible so I guess you can strike that one if you wish. New revelation or continuing revelation just see the non-whites being let into the priesthood and the abolition of polygamy. 1000 yrs of no church, the LDS wasn't founded until the 1800's. The Moromons believe that priesthood outside the church is invalid and that their is no church without the preisthood a point made explicitly about baptism, which is a prerequisite for salvation, which means there was no church, therefore no priests, therfore no baptism, therefore no people saved from the time of the absolutoin of the levitical priesthood until the 1800's, a thousand years.

I really don't want to offend you, I am just showing where and how the LDS differ from Chrisitianity. Chrisitinaity has had essentially the same message since christ's death on the cross, the LDS version which differs radically from Christianity, didn't surface unitl the 1800's a relative newborn religion theologically speaking.
Can i ask you if there was a church claiming to be LDS, but differed radically from it's teachings, would you or would you not wish to seperate yourslef from the asasocitaion with this church? That is why I posted the differences, lest someone think our religions were the same, which they are not.

RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Wed Feb 13, 2002 1:37 am

Toadpipe. You seem like a really good guy, and I don't want to offend you either. But just like I said earlier, debates don't really help matters much. I've heard all the arguments against Mormonism ad nauseum, and I choose to stick with my religion. And I'm sure every rhetorical tactic I could employ would not dissuade you from your chosen way. It's really useless to argue.

However, it's really a shame that you do not accept Mormons as Christians, because nothing could be further from the truth. A cursory study of the Book of Mormon alone would reveal that fact! Nevermind that we also accept the Bible as the word of God.

But I suppose we'll just have to "agree to disagree," which is fine.

RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Wed Feb 13, 2002 4:25 am

NormalSpeed: I hate to just jump in like this, but twice now you have made refernce to some kind of debate to be had between Mormonism and Christianity. I do not understand why you do not want to spend the time and energy to refute what Toadpipe has brought against Mormons, especially when it seems that the matter is so close to heart with you. I'm sorry if you find this post offending, or that I am attacking you, but I really would like to see your position on this instead of your "claims."


RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Wed Feb 13, 2002 5:04 am

I'm not trying to convert you normalspeed, ok? I'm sure you have heard the gospel before. those weren't arguments meant to persuade you to a different beleif, they were meant to show why Mormons are not Christians.

A cursory study of the book of mormons reveals they are not indeed Christians. You believe in many God's not one. You add to the work of the cross, by salvation=grace+faith+works+baptism+....See Galatians in your Bible for why you don't earn salvation and why you don't work to keep it. We believe in the fall of man by which all men are born sinners, apparently from your creed you do not. the list goes on and on.

We had very good reason and strict requirements for the Canon of scripture, apparently though God must have forgotten something and called an American Joseph Smith to fill in the gaps some 17 centuries after the the rest of it.. See Islam, this is the same strategy Mohammed applied, funny he tried to intially asscoiate with the Christian faith too, but he did it earlier in the 7th century.

Mormonism is in no way shape or form Christianity. If this offends you so be it, I am not going to suppress my beliefs and what the truth actually is to accomodate you or anyone else.

RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Wed Feb 13, 2002 5:13 am

What's up? Troy the Carbon boy. How ya feeling?

RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Wed Feb 13, 2002 6:26 am

I'm doing much better now. Thanks for asking. Now that my ears don't hurt so bad, I just wish I can get all these bees from buzzing around in my head.  Smile
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RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Wed Feb 13, 2002 8:18 am

Unfortunately, denominations exist primarily because one group of people decide that some of the teaching are erroneous. It is sometimes over stuff like dancing. Unfortunately, some people just choose not to concern themselves with anyone outside there denomination. I am Brethren In Christ, we are really close to the Mennonites. In fact we partner alot with them in missions. I don't think that we should be separate anymore but hey, Im only 17.
Life is a Mine Field.
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RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Wed Feb 13, 2002 9:13 am

A quick question for NormalSpeed or any other "LDS" out there:

I don't start my course in world religions until next semester; so I'm going by what I read this past summer, so my memory might be just a bit fuzzy.

But could one of you explain to me the process of afterlife, in your opinion. How one would get to "heaven"? I've heard that you believe there's 3 stages of afterlife and that you can get "promoted"? Sorry about the fuzziness, but could one of you elaborate?


RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Wed Feb 13, 2002 10:20 am

As requested by Galilee and Toadpipe, here are some of my views.

"Mormons believe in many Gods."

I suppose that's true, in a sense - a very broad sense. We belive in God the Father, God the Son (Christ), and the Holy Ghost. We believe that these are three distinct individuals. Here is some scriptural basis for these beliefs: John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his begotten Son..." And John 20:17 (The Savior speaking) "...I am not yet ascended to my Father." There is plenty of evidence of this throughout the Bible. For example, as the Savior prayed "O my father, ... let this cup pass from me..." we do not believe that Christ was talking to himself. Notice that the above cited references were far from obsucre.

"Mormons do not believe in the Grace of God"

James 1:22 "Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only." 1 Peter 1:17 "...the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work..." For more on this, you might want to look at Galatians 5 - It mentions that it is actually possible to fall from grace. And how does one go about falling from grace? My guess is sinning and then not repenting, which is what I'm are trying to get at. We could never attain salvation if it were completely up to us. This is why we need Christ. But He wants us to do everything in our power, which means repenting for our sins, and changing our ways. And we do so not so we can "get into heaven," but rather for our love for Him, and willingness to follow.

Here's a scriptural reference from the Book of Mormon. This was written by an Ancient Prophet named Nephi. He writes: "And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophesies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins."


RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Wed Feb 13, 2002 2:58 pm

Just a note to what I previously wrote:

If any of you decide to get argumentative, then this conversation is over. I have no problems with being respectfully disagreed with, but I am NOT here to argue. I hope that people realize that we are, in fact, Christians, but I won't loose any sleep either way. If that offends you, then I'm sorry, but I can't alter my beliefs for a few forum members.

RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Wed Feb 13, 2002 3:13 pm

Wow, NormalSpeed!! Who let the dogs out!!! Big grin

Seriously, does that mean that we can't reply to your post. What I have seen in the past is someone respectfully disagreeing with someone else, but the other claims it is argumentative. Will this be the case here? I certainly hope not. I hope that if myself or someone else replies to your post, that it will at least make you think about it. I am sure I will not ask or rather demand that you believe the way I do.


RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Wed Feb 13, 2002 3:24 pm

I guess Joseph Smith knows better than all the early church fathers some who were contemporaries of the authors...

That there are 3 distinct persons within one being God is the trinity, That one person Jesus had 2 natures is the incarntion. There are not 3 beings there are not 4. There is one being and that is the difference. They are one in essence, not just one in love and purpose. That is the difference between Christianity and Mormonism.

Thing is we know from other sources that there were in fact Peter,Paul, James, Jude, etc...but know other sources verify that the prophet Nephi ever existed.

Balance that james with a little romans and do it so they don't contradict each other. Faith is logically prior to Works, faith is the primary cause of salvation on our end and Grace on Gods end. Works naturally follow and are a logical consequent of saving faith, but they are not the cause in any way shape or form. I don't see any standard in the Bible that we could do enough good things to get to heaven, when do you know you have done enough? But he Bible is replete with saying we can have assurance of our salvation.

If you read Galatians the whole book, you will see that in 6:1 they are called bretheren so they are true believers and who had placed their faith in christ (3:2) fot their justification (3:5). They had begun in the spirit (3:3) but were now fallen from grace(5:4) as ameans of their sanctification and had gone back to keeping the law (sounds like mormons)(3:5) which only only brings one into bondage(3:10) They had not lost their salvation but only their means of true sanctification, which also comes by grace, not by the law. The book is a treatise on those who wan't to work to heaven and how that is not possible. I suggest you read the whole book in it's context don't pull out a verse that will suit your needs.

RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Thu Feb 14, 2002 3:31 am

Did I not say that expressing my views would only fuel debates? Sure, I could post a rebuttal to what Toadpipe just wrote, but then he'd come up with more counterclaims, and then I'd have to come up with defenses to those, and it would all escalate into one big mess. So, I'm not going to do that.

One question for Toadpipe: Why do you percieve our faith as such a large threat to yours? I certainly don't percieve yours or any other religion as a threat to mine. I'm perfectly content to let you believe how you will, yet you seem to be harboring some sort of grudge. What's the deal?

Besides that, don't we live in an age where there is so much evil out there, that those of us that believe in God should team up to accomplish some good, instead of squabbling about who has the absolute truth?

RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Thu Feb 14, 2002 3:57 am

Hello NormalSpeed,
I did not doubt that this would turn into a debate. But since it did, is there anything wrong with that? I think such debates can and should be intellectually stimulating. Also, I do not normally speak for other people, but since I know toadpipe personnally, I can say that he is solid in his faith, and no other beliefs threaten him. Speaking for myself now, when I debate such issues, it is with the sole purpose that someone out there may see the trueth and come to the Lord. In your situation, NormalSpeed, I can see that you have already come to the Lord, and you're right; with so much evil in the world, believer should come together, but you and I know that it will never happen. NormalSpeed, when I think I am right about something, it is very hard to get me to change my mind, unless someone were to show me my errors. I know this is going to be hard, and I will probably really piss you off, but I think that you are in a great position to be shown your errors. I think you came to believe what you do now, without really knowing anything else. Myself, I would like you to see that the defenses of Mormonism do not hold up. I would like you to take that information, and really pray about it. Most of all, I would like to see you trust in the Word of God, and in the free gift of salvation that Christ has given us. Please don't think that I am just trying to get "recruits". You know as well as I do that that isn't what it is about. Look, I sorry if I pissed you off, but I think you had a right to know where I am coming from. Even if you do nothing with the information you learn on hear, I will not loose respect for you as a person.


RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Thu Feb 14, 2002 7:23 am

I don't have a grudge, I don't like things clouding the gospel. Works based salvation isn't the gospel, Salvation is through Christ alone by grace through faith alone, there is no other name under heaven by which man may be saved. I fail to see how teaming up to do good works would accomplish anything in the long run if truth is sacrificed from the outset, Christ didn't say go out and do good works, forget the truth. He said go out and preach the gospel. Do I do good works, yes, but not to change the world(cuz that ain't going to happen) or to get saved (cuz I already am and nothing can change that). I have peace, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, I am going to heaven, and the bible is a reliable source of truth.

Jesus Christ, the way, the TRUTH, and the Life.

Too many religions claim the Bible is in some way shape or form errant. They always, and I mean always go onto to posit some form of works based salvation, deny the trinity, and then posit some new book of there own. Joseph Smith isn't new, Islam did the exact same thing, and I mean the exact same thing. Jehovas witness are similar. The list goes on and on.

I forget who said it right now, but someone once said a life unexamined is a life not worth having, I think a faith unexamined is a faith not worth holding.


RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Thu Feb 14, 2002 9:50 am

I think you came to believe what you do now, without really knowing anything else. Myself, I would like you to see that the defenses of Mormonism do not hold up. I would like you to take that information, and really pray about it.

Arrrgghhhh!!!! Here we go.


As I mentioned earlier, debates do no good. You could go on and on about how wrong mormonism is, and I would not be convinced (more on this later). Then I could post a response as to why you were wrong, and eloquent or not, you would not be convinced either.

Now let me address the question as to why I'm not shaken in my faith when criticisms of my religion seem abundant. It is because of this simple fact: The Book of Mormon is the word of God. How do I know? I've read it! I've prayed about it!

So, while we are on the subject of issuing challenges, if you do not believe the Book of Mormon is true (and I imagine this is the case), then prove it. Locate a copy, read it, and decide for yourself.


Thu Feb 14, 2002 10:18 am


Here's some scriptural stuff for ya...

1 Corinthians 15:40-42 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption."
2 Corinthians 12:2 "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heavan."

We believe in the three degrees of glory spoken of by Paul (author of Corinthians). We call these, aptly, the terrestrial kingdom, telestial kingdom, and celestial kingdom. We draw a distinction from merely being "saved." The atonement of Christ applies to, or "saves" everyone. That's what allows us to return to some form of glory (as opposed to being denied entrance to "heaven"). Now, within these three degrees, your standing is determined by two things: Your faithfulness: Whether you've kept God's commandments and repented of your sins. And Having the proper ordinances performed by the proper authority, i.e. baptism, etc. We believe that none will be denied these ordinances, which is why we perform them via vicarious proxy in our temples for those who have passed on. We do not believe that this makes those who have died Mormons retroactively. Rather, the ordinance is available should they choose to accept it (God will never take away our agency).

Well, that sums it up. I'd be happy to answer any other questions.

Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Thu Feb 14, 2002 10:20 am

Islam did the exact same thing

What the heck are you doing bringing them into this? It's not that the Muslims reject your Holy Bible, they never accpeted it in the first place. Yes,They have their own religion based on the same God as that of the Judeo-Christian faiths, but to mention their faith in that context within your post is absolutely nuts.

Religion is always a touchy subject, I think everyone should just remember your truth may not be same as the next man's. We must each find truth and personal salvation in our own way.
fuddle duddle

RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Thu Feb 14, 2002 2:24 pm

AC320, Islam does in fact accept the NT and the OT as revelations from God. They just say it has been corrupted, it was for a particular people, not the whole world, Mohammed received a new revelation for the whole world He is the last prophet etc.. I really don't think you know a thing about Islam. Your opinion is absolutely nuts. We must find personal truth and salvation on our own apart from God? That is just absurd, the nature of God, in just about any religion requires a revelation on his part. Christianity is exclusive in it's means of salvation, just like other religions. So what you are in effect saying is Christianity is wrong. That's cool, you can do that. What you can't do is say they are all right, and mean anyhting intelligible when you say it. If Christiainity says it is right and all other s our wrong, then it can not be right and all others also.
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Fri Feb 15, 2002 6:04 am

It seems you either misunderstood my post or I did not make it clear enough. My point is that everyone finds their faith in different ways, no religion is 100% right and none is 100% wrong. I just hate it when I hear people say things like "My religion is the one true faith", for him that may be true, but not for every man, woman and child on this Earth.
fuddle duddle

RE: Christianity Experts- Help Me Out!

Fri Feb 15, 2002 2:58 pm

But we are to accept special pleading on your behalf? Namely, you are 100% correct when you say all religion is not 100% correct. All cretans are liars, said the cretan? Relativism is a self defeating world view.

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