EmiratesLover
Topic Author
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2000 11:40 pm

Palestinian Arms Ship

Mon Feb 11, 2002 10:12 pm

OK, OK I will confess I was rather surprised, indeed intrigued when many people reacted the way they did about the story of the Palestinian ship which was captured and was found to be full of arms.After all, any people living under a brutal military occupation which is anyhow absolutely illegal from the point of view of International law and UN resolutions would have done the same thing sooner or later.What I never realized is that the best counterargument to the views of those who used this sad story to further vilify the Palestinians
would actually come from....and Israeli.Thats right, the Israeli peace activist David Grossman from the excellent Israeli newspaper Ha`aretz.Here goes......






Palestinian Arms Ship
What Had to Be Proved

by David Grossman

The seizure of the Palestinian arms ship brings great relief because the terrible weaponry will not be aimed at Israelis, as well as a sense of gratitude toward the soldiers who participated in the mission. However, in the voices of spokesmen for the Israel Defense Forces, the government and the media there was also an unconcealed note of joy that at long last "final proof" has been found of the Palestinians criminal, terrible intentions.
Ostensibly, it has become clear beyond a shadow of doubt that "the Palestinian Authority is infested with terror from head to toe," as Chief of Staff Shaul Mofaz said at the press conference that seemed to be an attempt to bring back for a moment the glory of the heroic 1950s, if not of Entebbe itself.

But what proof has been obtained here? Proof that if you oppress a people for 35 years, and humiliate its leaders, and harass its population, and do not give them a glimmer of hope, the members of this people will try to assert themselves in any way possible? And would any of us behave differently from the Palestinians in such a situation? And did we behave any differently when for years we were under occupation and tyranny?

Avshalom Feinberg and Yosef Lishansky set out for Cairo to bring money from there to the Nili underground so that the Jewish community in Palestine could assert itself against the Turks. The fighters of the Haganah, the Lehi and the Etzel underground movements collected and hid as many weapons as they could, and their splendid sliks (arms caches) are to this day a symbol of the fight for survival and the longing for liberty, as were the daring weapons acquisition missions during the British Mandate (which were defined by the British as acts of terror).

When "we" did these things, they were not terrorist in nature. They were legitimate actions of a people fighting for its life and liberty. When the Palestinians do them, they become "proof" of everything we have been so keen to prove for years now.

It was embarrassing and irksome to hear the chief of staff scolding the Palestinians for "wasting their money on acquiring arms instead of seeing to their poor and hungry populace" - the words of a man whose soldiers - who follow the government's instructions - harass Palestinians morning, noon and night, impoverish them and starve them. No less embarrassing was the journalistic reporting of the seizure of the ship. The correspondents, excited by the heroism of our soldiers, unanimously adopted the self-righteous declarations of the chief of staff and the prime minister about the Palestinians and their murderousness and the terrorism that burns in their breasts like a second nature, almost.

Now come the days of celebration and rejoicing because "we told you so": We told you that the Palestinians do not keep agreements (while we of course stick to every agreement); we told you that they will do everything possible to acquire attack weapons (while we aim narcissus stems at the windows of Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat's window in Ramallah); we told you that there is no one to talk to and therefore we should keep tightening the noose around their necks (and in this way undoubtedly we will bring about a profound change in the "Palestinian character," so that they will agree to accept all our conditions); we told you that Arafat is in fact bin Laden (and we are disciples of the Dalai Lama).

In the attempt to smuggle in the arms by ship, the Palestinians seriously violated the agreements with them and the IDF must, of course, do all it can to prevent such escalation. Nevertheless, how can an entire people's sense of judgement be so dulled? How can we repeatedly ignore the big picture and the sharp sense that Israel, in its actions and in its failures to act, and especially in the malevolent behavior of its prime minister, keeps pushing the Palestinians to such actions so that time after time they will provide us with that "incontrovertible proof," in which there is in fact no real benefit to our interests?

These are disgusting days. Days of total befuddlement of the senses. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon will wring every possible drop of propaganda out of this ship. The media, for the most part, will run panting after him. The Israeli street, too exhausted and apathetic to think, will adopt any definite conclusion that will solve for it the internal and moral contradiction in which it lives and reinforce its sense of righteousness, which has been undermined at its base.

Who has the strength these days to remember the beginning, the root of the matter, the circumstances, the fact that what we have here is occupation and oppression, reaction and counter-reaction, a vicious circle and a bloody circle, two peoples that are becoming corrupt, violent and crazy with despair, a death trap in which we are suffocating more with every passing day?


 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Mon Feb 11, 2002 10:50 pm

P R O P O G A N D A

Those arms were meant to kill Israeli civilians-such a noble cause, I'm sure. You can scream all you want, EmriatesLover, terrorism doesn't gain the Palestinian cause any sympathy, except with the normal naive and gullible crowd that always yells about Israel on here. Let the PA truly disarm and decapitate the terrorists; let them fulfill the treaties that were agreed to; let them show that they will not tolerate the continued murder of Israeli citizens, and guess what? You'd find the Israeli's very ameniable to making a deal that would lead to a Palestinain nation.

Until then, don't try to justify weapons that were meant to terrorize a people as legitimate because some peacnik in Israel doesn't like the the policies of his country.
 
Guest

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Mon Feb 11, 2002 11:02 pm

I agree with Alpha1. If the Palestinians wanted to defend themselves, why wouldn't they openly buy their arms? Why smuggle them? Israel doesn't smuggle F-16s in....
If terrorists stopped killing Isralis, how would Israel justify any military action in Palestine? The attacks just give them a reason to continue oppressing the Palestinian people.
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Mon Feb 11, 2002 11:15 pm

Alpha 1

Why do you bother with any text in your posts ? Your opinions on anyone who is not Jewish are known to all. Just a blank post with your username should suffice to inform us of your presence.

Did you actually read the whole article ? How can you say propaganda ? Someone who actually lives the reality every day, unlike you or me, actually makes a plea for restraint from all sides and you call it propaganda ????


" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
Guest

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Mon Feb 11, 2002 11:40 pm

How spiritual you are, Pacificjourney!


The PA wanted to smugle a 50 tons TERROR ARSENAL, with rockets and highly powerful explosives; explosives even much more powerful than anything used until now against Israeli civilians!!

The declared Palestinian goal is to establish a State in the former Jordanian- and Egyptian- occupied territories. Barak had given that to the Palestinians in 2000, but Arafat refused and organized the "intifada", according to the explanations of his own "Information minister".
The Palestinians' actual goal is slightly different...The "moderate" late Faisal Husseini declared last summer that their "strategic goal remained unchanged: the liberation of Palestine FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA".
If their goal was a state alongside Israel they could have it...but it's not what they want!
To kill as many Israeli innocents won't bring peace any closer, and they know it very well;

WHO could honestly say that the Hamas, the Hezbollah or the Islamic Jihad are organizing their massacres "in order to achieve peace"?? Their declared goal is to eliminate Israel! And Arafat's goal is exactly the same.
The Palestinians are preparing for war, but EmirLover & Co see nothing wrong with this, nor with the now daily terror attacks.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Mon Feb 11, 2002 11:58 pm

I put in text just to piss off people like you Pacificjourney, did you ever think of that!!  Wink/being sarcastic

And I'll say it again: P R O P O G A N D A.

I really don't care if you, or anyone else, doesn't like me voicing my opinion.
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Tue Feb 12, 2002 12:10 am

The only things the PLO (now calling themselves PA) want and have always wanted are
1) the elimination of all Jews wherever they may be
2) a marxist/maoist state in the place of the current state of Israel

Maybe those goals will broaden when Israel is destroyed to include the elimination of everyone not Palestinian and a single Palestinian state to span the globe...
I wish I were flying
 
Hoffa
Posts: 946
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Tue Feb 12, 2002 2:36 am

If the Palestinian Authority/Hizbollah wants open war with Israeli troops, then by all means they are entitled to purchase or acquire weapons, missles, tanks, guns, etc for that purpose.

The problem is that Arafat told Bush, Peres, Powell, etc that he is trying to crack down on terrorism and terrorist activity, then goes and orders weapons from Iran via Hizbollah. Basically, he talked from both sides of his mouth.

Don't talk about peace and then pursue violence. Choose one or the other.

The Palestinians believe that if they escalate the war and kill a lot of Israelis, then the US and EU will become a lot more interested in their situation. That's why they still talk about peace as Kassam 2 rockets are being fired on innocent civilians.
 
Hoffa
Posts: 946
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Tue Feb 12, 2002 2:41 am

As long as there are Yehudis living in Israel, no Arab or Muslim will ever feel satisifed.
 
Guest

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Tue Feb 12, 2002 4:11 am

Articles like these make me smile because I know Israel is becoming the society that will prosper when someone can write an article like that in a public forum like a leading newspaper without any fear of arrest or retribution.

Not many other countries in this world can boast the same certainly not in that region.

TNNH
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Tue Feb 12, 2002 4:23 am

Hoffa,

If the Palestinian Authority/Hizbollah wants open war with Israeli troops, then by all means they are entitled to purchase or acquire weapons, missles, tanks, guns, etc for that purpose.

The problem here, is that the Palestinians have repeatedly have shown that they use these kinds of weapons to target and attack Israeli civilians rather than military targets. That's where there is the discrepency.
NO URLS in signature
 
Guest

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Tue Feb 12, 2002 4:27 am

Also, to support Tbar220, every document and agreement the PA has signed with Israel and the US has explicitly outlawed or prohibited such agressive arms and their transport to Palestine.

So NO, the Palestinians are not "entitled" to these weapons legally and certainly not morally when they deliverately attack noncombatant civilians.

Their behavior is disgusting and repulsive.

TNNH
 
Guest

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Tue Feb 12, 2002 4:34 am

well said; and so is their supporters's behaviour too!!
 
Guest

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Tue Feb 12, 2002 6:19 am

Is a person really innocent when they support the occupation of land that belongs to another? Is a person really innocent when they ignore human rights atrocities? Is a person really innocent when they support opression and/or murder? Are we really innocent when we turn our backs on the plights of others or when we take sides rather than seeking an equitable peace?

My take on the peace process is that Israel needs to make the first move. Arafat is calling for peace talks and Israel is lamenting that they didn't murder Arafat when they had the chance.

Indeed, this statement:

The protest came one day after Sharon failed to persuade Washington to boycott Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat in future negotiations.

Shows you how much peace Israel is after.

and Arafat told Sharon he “forgave” him, in an interview published Friday by an Israeli daily, and urged him to return to the negotiating table.

“A leader must know how to forgive, and I forgive Sharon. From the bottom of my heart, I send him this message: Please, Sharon, let us go back to the negotiating table,” Arafat told Maariv.


is also a very telling statement.

I suggest that Israel should withdraw from all occupied territories and that peace talks involve ALL a neutral third party who has no vested interest in either state.

Some more little gems coming out of the middle east:


  • Israeli officials promise this is only the start of retaliation
  • Israel Launches New Attack on Gaza
  • Israelis Raid West Bank Town
  • Tanks Raid Palestinian City After Attacks
  • IAF hits Gaza in third wave of strikes in less than a day


The terrorist atrocities in Israel are well documented but the terrorist atrocities in Palestine are glossed over and ignored.





VH-ADG
 
Hoffa
Posts: 946
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Tue Feb 12, 2002 7:36 am

My take on the peace process is that Israel needs to make the first move. Arafat is calling for peace talks and Israel is lamenting that they didn't murder Arafat when they had the chance.

That's not really the point ADG. As you say, Arafat is "calling" for peace talks in the foreign media (while calling for jihad in the Arabic press mind you). The very next phone call is to Hizbollah ordering up a boatload of weapons including mortars, rockets, anti-tank missles, etc after he specifically told Bush, Powell, and Solana that he was cracking down on terror. Don't you realize Arafat says one thing to the dovish Israeli papers like Ma'ariv and Ha'aretz and the foreign press, and something completely different to the Arabic papers and his own people?

If Arafat's stated intention is to declare war against Israeli occupation, why does he talk about peace and the negotiating table? Either war or peace, it cannot be both.

I agree with you that Arafat is sabotaging any hopes the Palestinians have for a future by thinking escalating the conflict while talking peace is going to bring about some kind of meaningful change. It just means more dead innocents on both sides and no improvement whatsover for the Palestinians.

Don't you think long range missles are a grave provocation? When did Israel fire missles and rockets into Palestinian cities with the intention of killing as many people as possible?
 
Guest

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Tue Feb 12, 2002 1:28 pm

Your problem ADG is your too gullible. Because Arafat says he wants peace does not he mean he wants peace. Have you not witnessed any events over the last year and a half?

My take on the peace process is that Israel needs to make the first move.

You know ADG, Israel has made the first move, they've made the first move many times. Two years ago Ehud Barak gave us an Israeli peace plan that Arafat rejected. As President Clinton was leaving office he gave the region a Clinton peace plan that Arafat rejected. So Israel and America have provided peace plans, where are the Arab peace plans?

Now is the time for an Arab peace plan. Enough of the Arab leaders sitting back complaining about everyone else's peace plans. It's time for Arafat to put on the table not only what he want from Israel — an end to occupation — but what he and the Arab states collectively are ready to give in return.

All the peace breakthroughs in the region happened not when the Arabs threatened the Israelis, but when the Arabs enticed the Israelis. That is, when Arab leaders — Anwar Sadat, King Hussein and even Yasir Arafat in Oslo — made clear to the Israeli silent majority that they were interested in real peace in return for real Israeli withdrawal, they got exactly what they wanted from Israel: Sinai Peninsula back, normalized relation with Jordan and a Palestinian Authority.

So, now is not the time for Israel to make the first move, they've been there done that. Israel holds all the cards. They have the military superiority, they have the food, they have the water, and they have sustainable economy and infrastructure. The Palestinians have none of that. Now is there time to present an Arab peace plan and not one that involves blown up pizza parlors or massacred bar mitzvahs.

The future is in their hands, not ours. Good luck to them.

TNNH
 
Guest

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Tue Feb 12, 2002 5:33 pm

That's not really the point ADG. As you say, Arafat is "calling" for peace talks in the foreign media (while calling for jihad in the Arabic press mind you). The very next phone call is to Hizbollah ordering up a boatload of weapons including mortars, rockets, anti-tank missles, etc after he specifically told Bush, Powell, and Solana that he was cracking down on terror. Don't you realize Arafat says one thing to the dovish Israeli papers like Ma'ariv and Ha'aretz and the foreign press, and something completely different to the Arabic papers and his own people?

Hoffa, that is your OPINION. Which press runs articles where he is calling for Jihad by the way, I haven't been able to find any (even using google), perhaps you can help me out? You are posting the "party line" there, i've heard the words but not seen the proof (yet).

If Arafat's stated intention is to declare war against Israeli occupation, why does he talk about peace and the negotiating table? Either war or peace, it cannot be both.

and how does that differ from Israel who tells us they want peace and then bombs the crap out of Palestine? Hmm... similarities? Surely not! (note the sarcasm)

I agree with you that Arafat is sabotaging any hopes the Palestinians have for a future by thinking escalating the conflict while talking peace is going to bring about some kind of meaningful change.

Yes, I've never condoned the actions of the terrorists, but I do understand that they believe they have a grievance.

It just means more dead innocents on both sides and no improvement whatsover for the Palestinians.

Yes, this is the tragedy of all this stupidity, that people are killed :-(

Don't you think long range missles are a grave provocation?

Of course. But then taking someones land, refusing to give it back, occupying more land, retaliating without dialogue, saying they wished they'd killed the leader when they had the chance are also provocative don't you think?

When did Israel fire missles and rockets into Palestinian cities with the intention of killing as many people as possible?

Hmmm.... they've thrown all sorts of weapons at Palestine, they've occupied the land, they have razed buildings, staffed streets, murdered children. Don't get me wrong here, I condemn terrorist, ALL TERRORISM, which includes the behaviour of the military AND the Prime Minister (President?) of Israel!

God help the people of Israel and Palestine whilst Sharon is in charge. Perhaps they could remove both leaders and put in some fresh blood on both sides?




VH-ADG
 
Guest

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Tue Feb 12, 2002 5:47 pm

Your problem ADG is your too gullible.

Not so, my problem is that I don't immediately take sides on issues without finding out the facts and looking at the past, the present and the future. Or more simply put, my problem in these threads (according to you guys) is that I don't blindly support the actions of Israel.

Because Arafat says he wants peace does not he mean he wants peace.

When you supply evidence to the contrary I shall re-evaluate my beliefs.

Have you not witnessed any events over the last year and a half?

God yes! I appear to have seen far more than you guys will ever acknowledge. :-(

You know ADG, Israel has made the first move, they've made the first move many times.

Oh poop, like you accuse Palestine of being "two faced", I accuse Israel of the same. They want peace AT THEIR TERMS. That's obviously unacceptable to Palestine. They also refuse to acknowledge the fact that Arafat hasn't got contol of all of Palestine, they blame him for everything. Should Israel be responsible for the actions of every jew? Should we blame Israel for that loon who was plotting destruction in the United States recently?

Two years ago Ehud Barak gave us an Israeli peace plan that Arafat rejected.

Ah .. so you are saying that because Israel put it up it should be accepted? What if it were unacceptable to Palestine? What if they wanted a different peace? That's what NEGOTIATION is all about isn't it. Not this bullying, threatening, revenge seeking that we are seeing at the moment.

As President Clinton was leaving office he gave the region a Clinton peace plan that Arafat rejected. So Israel and America have provided peace plans, where are the Arab peace plans?

Where are the Palestinians given a chance to organise things like that? They are opressed people, they are disorganised and angry. Surely to address those issues are the first steps to peace are they not?

Perhaps Palestine sees this grovelling to the US to get their own way as insulting and contradictory? I can't speak for Arafat because he is a man I have no respect for as well as Sharon, but I think you simplify the issue to much.

Now is the time for an Arab peace plan.

Really? When Sharon refuses to talk peace, threatens the life of the Palestinian leader, goes and sucks up to the US (Qudos to the US president for sending him on his way!!!!) ....

Enough of the Arab leaders sitting back complaining about everyone else's peace plans. It's time for Arafat to put on the table not only what he want from Israel — an end to occupation — but what he and the Arab states collectively are ready to give in return.

I do agree, however Israel is in no mood for peace and no peace plan would work at the moment. It takes 2 to make peace. If the US hadn't aligned it self to closely to Israel perhaps they may have been able to achieve peace, unfortunately they have alienated the Palestinian people who see them as supporting Israel.

All the peace breakthroughs in the region happened not when the Arabs threatened the Israelis, but when the Arabs enticed the Israelis. That is, when Arab leaders — Anwar Sadat, King Hussein and even Yasir Arafat in Oslo — made clear to the Israeli silent majority that they were interested in real peace in return for real Israeli withdrawal, they got exactly what they wanted from Israel: Sinai Peninsula back, normalized relation with Jordan and a Palestinian Authority.

IF that's the case, why are Israel in the "occupied territories"? Do they take land, give it back in some granious gesture to appeas the US and then take it back again under some pretence or other?

So, now is not the time for Israel to make the first move, they've been there done that.

Rubbish. I would have taken Israel for the more educated of the two states, therefore they should take the lead. To take a petty tit for tat stance simply tells the rest of us that they are not ready or willing to achieve peace. It obviously doesn't suit their purpose.

Israel holds all the cards.

That's not something I would be boasting about.

They have the military superiority,

And you don't think that's provocative?

they have the food, they have the water,

Really? And you don't think that would be an issue to the Palestinians who see Israel as the stolen land?

and they have sustainable economy and infrastructure.

What you mean is they have the ongoing financial support of the USA?

The Palestinians have none of that.

Of course not, they are OPRESSED.

Now is there time to present an Arab peace plan and not one that involves blown up pizza parlors or massacred bar mitzvahs.

So that I understand you, you are saying that because Israel has stolen eveything good, that they have been supported by America until they are well armed and well trained that they should harass and intimidate Palestine to get what Israel wants?

The future is in their hands, not ours. Good luck to them.

If only that were true. But yes, good luck to both Palestine and Israel because whilst I disagree vehemtly with much of what you and your friends write, I do wish to see peace & stability in the region.



VH-ADG
 
Guest

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Wed Feb 13, 2002 4:55 am

my problem is that I don't immediately take sides on issues

Well you do. You just take different sides than the correct one because you prize yourself on being some kind of investigator and being able to see through to the truth, yet its the truth that only terrorists and Yasser Arafat identify with. Weird hunh?

When you supply evidence to the contrary I shall re-evaluate my beliefs.

Simple. His forces, his Fatah linked Al Aksa Martyrs Brigade, his Force 17, his PA has in this order, started the intifadah, shot at Israeli cars in the west bank and gaza strip, attacked Israeli soldiers and now tried to smuggle in long range missiles. These events are "evidence to the contrary". Instead of dissmissing them as some wild-eyed Israeli conspiracy you should take them for what they are, terroristic actions.

God yes! I appear to have seen far more than you guys will ever acknowledge. :-(

Support this statement because your last one sems to suggest the opposite.

They want peace AT THEIR TERMS. That's obviously unacceptable to Palestine.

Well that negotiation. The Palestinians are going to have to come up with something that is acceptable to both. Gratutious violence aimed at civilians not tied to any political solution is not acceptable to the Israelis and met with harsh retaliation.

They also refuse to acknowledge the fact that Arafat hasn't got contol of all of Palestine, they blame him for everything.

He has control ohboy. In December he called for an end to attacks, what happened? An end to attacks. He wasn't satisfied attacks resumed. He is the leader of the Palestinians, it has been his job to speak for, lead, and negotiate for the Palestinians, his mission has been a complete and bloody failure.

Should Israel be responsible for the actions of every jew?

Not every Jew, but every Israeli, and they are.

Should we blame Israel for that loon who was plotting destruction in the United States recently?

He wasn't Israeli. Should we blame Myanmar for Hitler's rise and aggresion? Your kind of silly sometimes. No we would have blame America and its law enforcement aparatus had he committed his horendous attacks. But because America realized it was in the best interest to quickly arrest and stop this "loon" they did. The Palestinians haven't fully understood this concept.

Ah .. so you are saying that because Israel put it up it should be accepted?

It was a good faith plan by the Israelis who at least are thinking. Where are the Palestinian peace plans?

What if it were unacceptable to Palestine? What if they wanted a different peace?

Fine, let them present a reasonable plan to the world and the Israeli "silent majority" will accept it. Right now all they know is Palestinian violence and aggresion not Palestinian goodwill and dialogue (becuase there is none).

Where are the Palestinians given a chance to organise things like that? They are opressed people, they are disorganised and angry.

Oh bullox. They've been given over 10 years, billions of dollars from the US, EU and others to build an authority that could keep order and design a peace with Israel. Because they spent them on mortars, bombs, guns, and legions of presidential guards is their waiste, not Israels. Their Arab brethren are sinking and money and oil. If they were serious about peace, progress would be made, if they are serious about war, ships of guns would be sent. Wait, that aleardy happened!

Really? When Sharon refuses to talk peace, threatens the life of the Palestinian leader, goes and sucks up to the US (Qudos to the US president for sending him on his way!!!!) ....

This says nothing. First of all its wrong, Bush met with Sharon and his top aides and pledged more money and support. Secondly, it is always time for an Arab peace plan, if they are serious about peace, which of course is doubtful.

however Israel is in no mood for peace and no peace plan would work at the moment.

Wrong! Last month a poll indicated 70% of Israelis accepted there would be a Palestinian state inevitably. An amazing number after a year of violence. When the Arabs entice Israel as they have three times before in history, Israel and the Arabs will achieve peace. Israel will not strive for peace in the wake of deadly suicide bombings. They will retaliate, as they do.

unfortunately they have alienated the Palestinian people who see them as supporting Israel.

I'm not going to even get in to the hundreds of millions of dollars the US has supported the PA with.
Now, the US is leaning towards Israel, how could they not when Arafat has launched a terrorist war (intifadah is the fancy name).

why are Israel in the "occupied territories"?

BECAUSE THE PALESTINIANS DESTROYED THE PEACE PLAN. INTIFADAH INTIFADAH INTIFADAH. DOLPHIN DISCO DOLPHIN DISCO. PIZZA HUT PIZZA HUT PIZZA HUT. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU

more later,
TNNH


 
Guest

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Wed Feb 13, 2002 7:39 am

take it back again under some pretence or other?

The "pretence or other" is stop terrorist agression and save Israeli lives. I can think of nothing more noble.

I would have taken Israel for the more educated of the two states

It is!

therefore they should take the lead.

Ok, I agree that when the region is ready for peace Israel will take the lead as its responsability for being the stronger party. However, Israel has attempted to take the lead numerous times in the conflict. If it were not for Israel there would be no Palestinian Authority and Arafat would still be tanning in Tunis.

They've taken the lead numerous times and each time the Palestinians have slapped them right back in the face.
Look up these dates....
Feb 26, 1996
march 3, 1996
august 21, 1995
july 24, 1995
april 9, 1995
january 22, 1995
october 19, 1994
october 9, 1994
april 13, 1994
april 6, 1994

these dates are a thank you note, a present you could say for one other date: september 13, 1993

so the next time you say the israelis "should take the lead" as they did in the years leading up to september 13 1993, look up some of these dates above. 15 people here, 9 people there, 20 people here, 25 people there, 12 people here, it starts to add up.

on september 13, 1993 israel took the lead, they were not rewarded handsomly. think about it.

tnnh
 
EmiratesLover
Topic Author
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2000 11:40 pm

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Thu Feb 14, 2002 10:06 pm

why are Israel in the "occupied territories"?

BECAUSE THE PALESTINIANS DESTROYED THE PEACE PLAN. INTIFADAH INTIFADAH INTIFADAH. DOLPHIN DISCO DOLPHIN DISCO. PIZZA HUT PIZZA HUT PIZZA HUT. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU


What is wrong with you - let me tell you - you have forgotten your history lesson.

Israel was in the occupied territories right from the very start - since 1967 when it attacked it's neighbours to achieve it's infamous land grab.For the first 20 years the Palestinians suffered in silence as Israel violated the human rights of Palestinians and confiscated their land, stole their water, demolished their homes - something that 7000 of them, made Palestinians homeless - 40000 of them since the occupation started alone, inside their own country - and tortured in jails, imposed checkpoints, strangulated the Palestinian's economy and imposed almost every single form of oppression conceivable by an illegitimate occupier.


Then 20 years into the illegal occupation - the Palestinians started their uprising.20 long years of brutality.Thing of that TWANEEDSNOHELP - 20 long years.Would you and your hot headed kind wait that long to start throwing stones if your neighbourhood were to be under the control of an illegal occupying army that brutalized you and your family.

I would give everything to see how YOU would behave if you and your ilk would behave if under a military occupation.Let me guess - you too would become a
terrorist just like Ehud Barak said he would if HE had been a Palestinian.

Lets face it - the reason the Palestinians are the way they are is becasue of the CONDITIONS they are in - if any of us were in the same situation as them, we would probably be doing far worse. Eh TWA.... ?

I suggest you read the history of Israel's occuaption before making a fool of yourself next time round.First Israel's occupation came, then came the ugly phenomenon of Palestinian suicide bombings against Israeli cities.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Thu Feb 14, 2002 10:16 pm

EmriatesLover, had the Arabs not been constantly attacking Israel since its inception in 1948, perhaps there would be a Palestine by now? Perhaps if the Arab world had embarked on a course of peaceful negotiation and to work with the U.N. an the rest of the world, the bloodshed in that area would have been avoided?

The fact is that Israel launched it's 1967 war for one reason-because of constant statements from the Arab nations that they intended to destroy Israel, and were constantly attacking it. Israel launched that campaign to protect its nation. Indeed, in 1973, during the Yom Kippur War, Egypt and Syria damn near destroyed Israel, but they didn't succeed.

So you can tell us all about the brutal treatment of the Palestinians, but also note than NONE of the Arab nations have done a thing all these years to promote-peacefully-the cause of those people. Indeed, Jordan lanuched their own war against Arafat and the PLO and tossed them out on their butts. So maybe save a few of those condemnations for the Arab countries who can't get their acts together, and make a positive step for peace in the region.
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Fri Feb 15, 2002 1:42 am

EmiratesLover,

And some Arab brothers the Palestinians have. When Israel offered to give back the West Bank to Jordan in its peace treaty (did you forget about that?), Jordan refused.

Wait a minute, let me get this straight, Israel, this brutal, occupying power was ready and willing to give back the land it had taken over in a war of self-defense? Naw, can't be.

And why wouldn't Jordan take it back? Those pesky Palestinians, let the Israeli's deal with them. They're nothing more than a nuisance. Wasn't it in Jordan that some 30,000 Palestinians were killed? *cough cough* You don't like mentioning that do you.

And when Israel returned Sinai to Egypt, where did Gaza end up? Oh no, not with the Egyptians, they didn't want to deal with those pesky Palestinians. And what do they get in return? An assassinated Prime Minister. *cough cough* Didn't mention that either.

So before you go around saying how miserable those Palestinians are, why don't you see the horrible atrocities that they have also commited on man. All the brutal terrorist attacks, not just on Israeli's. Look at the pathetic leadership that is guiding their people, and how they take money that should be going to their people.

And lastly, look at how the United States and Israel are the only countries supporting the Palestinians infrastructure and economy. What are their Arab "brothers" doing? Selling them weapons and helping make the terrorist groups more powerful, but not helping their people.

NO URLS in signature
 
Guest

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Fri Feb 15, 2002 9:10 am

since 1967 when it attacked it's neighbours to achieve it's infamous land grab.

Unbelievable. You are completely brainwashed. The Six Day War was completely forced upon Israel by the Arabs. And there was never any thought Israel was going to conquer the lands it conquerored, this was simply do to Israeli military superiority in what was initially a battle for the survival of Israel's existance.

Let me remind you of the events of the first months of 1967, it appears you have forgotten or never learned of them. The war effectively began not on June 5, but rahter on May 14th and 15th when lead units of two Egyptian divisions began rolling eastwards across the Suez Canal taking agressive positions in the Sinai peninsula. BY UN AGREEMENT THE SINAI WAS A DEFACTO BUFFER ZONE BETWEEN EGYPT AND ISRAEL. IT HAD BEEN EFFECTIVELY DEMILITARIZED AND UN TROOPS PATROLLED FOLLOWING THE 1956 ISRAELI WITHDRAWAL. Within the next three weeks more divisions COMPRISING OVER 100,000 TROOPS AND 900 TANKS world join them in the dessert. This was a complete Egyptian provocation that took even Israel's intelligence services by complete surprise.

Then, on May 19th Nasser, Egypt's president, ordered the UN Emergecny Force out of the Sinai!

Then, in another complete unilateral Egyptian provocation the Egyptian navy blocked the Straits of Tiran, preventing the passage of Israeli ships.

Then on May 30th the Jordanians joined the Egyptian-Syrian mlitary alliance and placed their troops on the west and east banks of the Jordan River under direct Egyptian military command. Iraq than quickly publicly and stupidly, announced it was sending its troops to the region in support of the military alliance.

Algerian and Kuwaiti troops than joined the alliance in the next days and by June 3, Israel was faced with 465,000 troops, 2800 tanks, and 810 aircraft.

C'MON!

All signs pointed to an impending and immediate invasion of Israel.

This all happened in the course of three weeks with no counter Israeli escalation. Israel would have guarranteed itself to the last pages of history books had it sat and done nothing. The Arabs had foolishly but out of pride just said to Israel "We've got the forces now, Your Dead Meat".

The only thing is the forces sucked and the Israelis were much stronger, more prepared, and better trained, than their Arabic speaking opponents. A lot of that had to do with a Mossad mission a year before which gave Israel a brand new Iraqi MiG-21 which was the Arab world's frontline aircraft against Israel.

So your reasoning that Israel started the war to grab land is absolutely false and imflammatory. Read the history books, but not the state-created Iraqi or Egyptian ones. They are mere propaganda.

TNNH
 
Guest

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Fri Feb 15, 2002 9:12 am

you too would become a terrorist just like Ehud Barak said he would if HE had been a Palestinian.

He never said this. Complete lunacy.

 
Guest

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Fri Feb 15, 2002 9:14 am

The fact is that Israel launched it's 1967 war for one reason-because of constant statements from the Arab nations that they intended to destroy Israel,

Read my post 2 up. They did much more than make "constant statements".
 
EmiratesLover
Topic Author
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2000 11:40 pm

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Fri Feb 15, 2002 8:49 pm

``EmriatesLover, had the Arabs not been constantly attacking Israel since its inception in 1948, perhaps there would be a Palestine by now? Perhaps if the Arab world had embarked on a course of peaceful negotiation and to work with the U.N. an the rest of the world, the bloodshed in that area would have been avoided? ''

Apparently you too are badly in need of a history lesson.


Israel started the `56 war by attacking Egypt first.Apologists for Israel would like nothing better than to point out that Egypt blocked Israeli shipping through the Suez, and that was a good enough reason - but it should not fool anyone.After all, if this is a good pretext for attacking another nation, then the Japanese offered similar explanations for what they did at Pearl Harbour- there too the US blocked Japanese traffic to punish Japan for it's aggression in Asia.

Likewise Israel attacked it's neighbours in the infamous land grab of 67 - before you try tell me how it was ``provoked by it's neighbours let me warn you - if you irritate me too much I might even post an article on how Moshe Dayan later accepted Israel's attack on Syria was motivated by desire for land, NOT security.

Israel attacked Lebanon in 78 and 82.The carnage and sheer brutality of the second invasion was after the PLO held it's fire for 11 whole months and after the PLO started to become a political force - something the Israelis wanted to prevent even at the expence of 20000 Palestinian and Lebanese lives.

The only time Israel was attacked by her neighbours was in 73, when the Arabs attacked and fought in a battle most of which occured which under international law did not even belong to Israel and which should have been vacated a long time ago.


So much for ``Arabs attacking Israel since it's inception in 1948''.Try coming up for something original will you !

Arab aggression or no Arab aggression, Arab peace feelers or no Arab peace feelers, Israel's strategic aim has always been as much land with as few Arabs.( Hint - remember the Serbs )

 
Guest

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Fri Feb 15, 2002 9:22 pm

- if you irritate me too much I might even post an article on how Moshe Dayan later accepted Israel's attack on Syria was motivated by desire for land, NOT security.

Frankly I could care less if your irritated or not but I would like to see this "article".

The rest of your post is baseless and false. The cowardly Arabs attacked Israel on its first day of creation, they attacked Israel on its holliest holiday and if you read my postings above you will understand they were about to annihilate Israel in 1967.

They lost. Israel never had any intention to capture Judea and Samaria and the Gaza coast. In fact if you study the Israeli politics you will understand what a ferocious political fight it was to decide to keep the territories and the million Arabs in them after Jordan renounced its claim to the West Bank.

Israel is prepared to give the Palestinians their own independent state for the first time in Palestinian history ever. Their own state with no roadblocks, no house demolitions, no curfews, just Palestinians.

However, for this extraordinary act to be fruitful the Palestinians who have given Israel nothing in 52 years are going to have change that mentality. Peace, security and the Arab world's recognition of Israels soverignty and security will be given, as will Israel's demand that the Palestinian state be demilitarized and Israel's insistance that the Palestinian refugees move to the Palestinians, and not Israeli lands.

However, before Israel is ready for such an extraordinary act the Palestinians first will show good will and stop the terrorist attacks. They have yet to do so and will continue to struggle.

The future is in their hands, good luck to them.

They don't realize it but they have extraordinary power over most of the Israeli electorate. They will not harness this power by blowing up their children or shooting down Israelis in the settlements.

They will harness their extraordinary power when they entice the Israelis to support their cause. They will entice the Israelis only after they stop killing the Israelis and promise Israel peace and security. Once they do so and demonstrate it (as they have a nasty habit of doing one thing and saying an other), Israel will demand their government to reach settlement with the Palestinians and any government which refuses to do so will be quickly voted out of office (such is a democracy) just as quickly as Sharon was voted in.

So thats it, entice the Israelis, the Israeli moderate majority will follow. Threaten the Israelis and the Israelis will sit back and let Sharon wreak his havoc.

Its all up to them, but they aren't rally intelligent enough to understand this.

Maybe you are EmiratesLover.  Confused

Blessed be the peacemakers,
TNNH
 
Guest

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:52 am

and have you EVER asked yourself, EmirateLover, WHY Israel entered Lebanon?

The unceasing deadly attacks from south Lebanon into Israel, attacks against busses, against appartment buildings, in Nahariya, in Kiryat Shmona, the Maalot school massacre...

No, of course, all this is of NO relevance, it's perhaps also part of Zionist propaganda, isn't it? It's anyway easier not to mention it in your "explanatory" speeches...


And now in the territories, the same is happening again. The Hamas, in coordination with Arafat's PLO (Tanzim, Al-aqsa brigades etc) is preparing the next "unprovoked Israel land grab".
WHAT do you think will happen the day rockets begin to rain over Jerusalem or Tel Aviv? WHAT do you think will happen the day BGN International airport will have to be shut down because of the rockets Hamas & Co are preparing to launch?
The day Israel will take action you'll be shouting here that it's another "unprovoked illegal operation"!





There will not be peace because the Palestinian leaders, is it Hamas and Islamic Jihad, or PLO or PFLP or DFLP, or any other, ARE OPENLY PROMOTING THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL AS THEIR FINAL OBJECTIVE.

Do I need to quote once more Faisal Husseini's words? He was a "moderate" politician...and declared just last summer that "the Palestinians' strategic goal has remained unchanged: the LIBERATION OF PALESTINE, FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA"
- With such a clear stance, YOU tell me HOW "peace" is conceivable...
 
Guest

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Sat Feb 16, 2002 4:46 am

As for Lebanon, don't forget the Palestinians brutal assassination of Ambasafor Shlomo Argov outside a London hotel.

 
Guest

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Sat Feb 16, 2002 4:50 pm

and don't forget a couple of weeks ago they attempted to kill Thai nationals.
 
Guest

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Mon Feb 18, 2002 12:35 pm

from my earlier post:

They've taken the lead numerous times and each time the Palestinians have slapped them right back in the face.
Look up these dates....
Feb 26, 1996


This date should actually be the day before, February 25, 1996, when a Hamas terrorist blew up the No. 18 bus in Jerusalem early that Sunday morning and killed 25 civilians, including 3 Americans.

The reason I bring it up is that the family one of the victims, an American Iran Weinstein, sued Iran in US District Court in Washington DC and won and was awarded 183 million dollars.

This is the largest settlement awarded to a US terrorist victim.

Interesting.

TNNH
 
EmiratesLover
Topic Author
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2000 11:40 pm

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Mon Feb 18, 2002 11:35 pm

``The rest of your post is baseless and false. The cowardly Arabs attacked Israel on its first day of creation, they attacked Israel on its holliest holiday and if you read my postings above you will understand they were about to annihilate Israel in 1967.''

The Arabs attacked Israel on it's first day of it's creation AFTER the cowardly Zionists had already ethnically cleansed 200000 Arabs from their homes and confiscated their land and committed many massacres against the indigenous Arab population.

The only war they really started was when they attacked Israel on it's holiest day after the Israelis had been illegally occupying the occupied territories for six whole years in utter contempt for international law ( typical of Israel to act on God's orders and make a mockery of every single norm of civilized behaviour in the process).Most of the fighting occurred in the occupied territories anyway between a highly trained and equiped Israeli army and a less well armed group of Arab armies.The fight could not have threatened Israel's existance as the bulk of the fighting occurred in the Occupied Territories.Considering what kind of barbaric human rights abuses Israel has been committing in the Occupied Territories, it is hardly surprising the Arabs wanted an end to the occupation.
 
Guest

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Mon Feb 18, 2002 11:49 pm

The fight could not have threatened Israel's existance as the bulk of the fighting occurred in the Occupied Territories...

and so Israel MUST retain these territories...!

BTW, it's ALWAYS easy to "anlyze" the real dangers a posteriori...It's been done for every war!


And I see you don't even dare to answer my precedent post...Interesting...
 
EmiratesLover
Topic Author
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2000 11:40 pm

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Tue Feb 19, 2002 12:11 am

And oh yes, as regards Israel's infamous invasion of Lebanon - let it be remembered that prior to the invasion, the PLO had actually held it's fire for 11 months prior to Israel's invasion, so the presence of Palestinian guerillas was no excuse at all.Not that Lebanon had ever asked for those refugees - they were after all the victims of Israel's infamous ethnic cleansing campaigns in 1948 - if Israel had not expelled them from their homes in the first place I do not understand why they would have become guerillas in the first place.I wonder how the Zionists on this forum would react if somebody from the opposite end of the world were to tell them that God had ``given'' them the land that they had been living on for generations after generations and they had to move out and go elsewhere while others could move in and enjoy yhr benefits of living on the land that they had been on all their lives.The most benign reaction one could expect was if they would just pick up the phone and call the lunatic asylum ( although working with psychiatric patients I must say even the psychotic delusions I encountered among them were not quite as ludicrous. )

Ehud Barak did indeed once admit that if he had been a Palestinian he would have become a terrorist...he said it at a press conference.Needless to say, Israel was really irritated.Given the virulent nature of some of Israel's supporters on this forum, it is a fair bet they would have too.
 
Guest

RE: Palestinian Arms Ship

Tue Feb 19, 2002 12:27 am

Your discourse constitutes a confirmation of my fears: the Arab world hasn't changed its position at all in over 54 years: Israel is illegitimate, and thus any means to fight it is "legitimate", including blowing up children, teenagers and as many innocents as possible.
It is also the proof that the peace process is nothing more than a dangerous trick, as Arafat has prepeatedly declared over the last decade, BTW.

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