Alpha 1
Topic Author
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Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 12:05 am

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20020305/bs/trade_steel_dc.html

If it can help revive the U.S. steel industry, I'm reluctantly for it. The U.S. steel industry has virtually been destroyed by steel from abroad from countries who pay dirt cheap labor and dump their steel over here.
 
donder10
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 12:11 am

Its not dumping,its called comparitive advantage
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 12:18 am

Ah, Donder10, I love semantics!!  Smile
 
Guest

RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 12:19 am

It's called paying back supporters and raising re-election funds. Politicians of all parties, ideologies and nations do it -- a lot.  Big grin
 
Guest

RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 12:22 am

Ha ha. No more dumping for you!!!
 
JetService
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 12:50 am

"It's called paying back supporters and raising re-election funds"

Yeah, like the unions?  Yeah sure

Also, I wonder how many companies that supported him will be paying these tariffs.

Maybe this one is for the right reasons.
"Shaddap you!"
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 1:13 am

Naturally, the EU is upset at the U.S. on this one. They don't have a problem shoving the Kyoto Treaty down our colletive throats-which the U.S. taxpayer would pay dearly to impliment, but they get outraged when we try to protect an industry that has taking a beating over the last 25 years because of cheap imports. Tough luck, I say.
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 1:19 am

It just means that US consumers will now be subsidising Steel companies through higher prices.

It will not be protecting US jobs, merely delaying the inevitable as a protected industry has less incentive to change and become more efficient and self-supporting.

Shame on GW for caving to vested interests so blatantly. So much for being in favour of free trade ?
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
Guest

RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 1:23 am

Let's just say there's one thing I've learned from observing politics and politicians, and even involving myself a bit in the past: there's no such thing as 'too cynical'. As one politician was bold enough to admit to writer Ron Kessler in 'Inside Congress', people often aren't cynical enough.

Or, as one of my university professors put it about ten years ago: "In politics, two and two does not necessarily equal four. In fact, if you add up two and two in politics and get four, you've probably got the wrong answer."

Both were good observations I've never been given cause to doubt.
 
Nik
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 1:31 am

"Naturally, the EU is upset at the U.S. on this one. They don't have a problem shoving the Kyoto Treaty down our colletive throats-which the U.S. taxpayer would pay dearly to impliment, but they get outraged when we try to protect an industry that has taking a beating over the last 25 years because of cheap imports. Tough luck, I say."

Well, we all know that the purpose of the EU is to destroy the US, their economy, democracy and their sovereignty. No, wait that was the UN, wasn't it...?
But then again, who cares, the rest of the world is evil and wants to destroy the US, we all know that....
 
cfalk
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 1:41 am

I understand the reasons, but the economic benefits (maintaining an uncompetitive industry through tariffs, thus reducing sector unemployment) is economically unsound in the long run, as it makes the consumer pay higher prices for steel, and the savings that would have been made, which would have gone to other purchases, groiwing other sectors of the economy and promoting jobs there, are lost.

As far as enemployment goes, it's a zero-sum gain, for economic development, it's a losing decision, and for foreign policy it's a major upset. In short, a mistake.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 1:52 am

Nik

You forgot to mention NATO, OECD, WTO, WHO, CNN, the Red Cross, Airbus, APEC ..... all those bastards are just out to do the US down ... LOL

Alpha 1

Working for a massively tax-payer subsidised indutry yourself it isn't at all surprising that you agree with this. Will be interesting to see how you feel when your next new car/fridge/washing machine/lawn mower etc are much more expensive because of it ?
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
avion
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 2:01 am

Does the EU export a significant amount of steel to the US??

I thought that most of the steel comes from other countries.
 
GDB
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 2:03 am

The EU will retaliate, which exposes the flaw in the policy, isn't most steel dumping from 3rd world nations, or 'Asian Tiger' economies like South Korea?
The only EU nations that were (note the past tense), still subsidising steel was Spain and possibly Belgium, I could be wrong there.
Anyway, no one wins in a trade war, so is this more about internal US politics?
 
Banco
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 4:11 am

True enough, GDB. In fact as an advocate of free trade over several decades the US knows as well as anyone that tariffs rarely work.

Whilst dumping does occur, the WTO is usually the forum for arguing the case if it involves the likes of the EU, rather than simply raising trade barriers.

I suspect this is for domestic consumption at a time when the priority is maintaining US employment. To that end, I don't think we can blame the US Government for the decision. The problem is that there could yet be repercussions for world trade - and that is bad news for all of us in the long run.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
D L X
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 5:35 am

Wait, didn't we fight hard to run pollutant steel mills out of this country? Now, we're going to penalize companies that want to bring steel in from overseas?

What am I missing?
 
Scotty
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 7:59 am

The US loses in the long run because now US manufacturers in the automobile industry and others will HAVE to buy US steel at a level of price which will be hiked up and fixed at a non competitive rate by US producers (the word "cartel" comes to mind). Exporting these products will become a no-go area, especially to the Pacific Rim countries.

In the EU, there are steel companies which export almost exclusively to the US and have laid off all staff today. We should now consider how best to respond, possibly by slapping import tariffs of say 30% on US steel products such as airliners and encouraging more of the European airlines to buy Airbus, for starters. I suspect that the likes of Boeing were already having to dig deep to find competitive prices for selling to the likes of Ryanair, so such action would hit where it hurts, especially with demand for new airliners at a virtual standstill.

Sorry to be ruthless, but if you play with fire....

Scotty
 
777236ER
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 8:01 am

YOU were just watching Newsnight, Scotty. Big grin
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Scotty
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 8:03 am

Yup. And I didnt like what I heard. When it comes to looking after your interests, there's two sides to the coin

Cheers
 
PanAm747
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 8:04 am

Nobody likes to lose their job on either side of the pond, but if every single US steel plant files for bankruptcy who will make our bullets and missles, China?

Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 8:55 am

Politics is one thing, but how can it be so that US steel producers cannot compete on the world market while EU producers can?

Well, US managers "earn" ten or a hundred times more than EU managers do. But steel production is a typical "low skilled labor heavy" industry. And low skilled labor is in fact lower paid in the US than in the big EU steel producing countries. Shorter holidays in the US etc. They should have a competitive advantage over the EU.

What makes US steel producers so much more inefficient that they cannot even compete with the EU on the world market? What is wrong? After all producing steel is nothing new to them over there. As far as I know they produced steel for the Ford T themselves. Are they running the same outdated plants as they did 80 years ago?
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
PanAm747
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:39 am

I'll be honest, the steel mills have threatened bankruptcy before, but just had to reallign themselves competitively. But this is the first time I remember that foreign trade was at fault.

My family is well connected to the steel industry and I am almost 100% postitive that the strating pay for an 18 year old kid is $40,000 USD per year. That is pretty high, there are many college graduates who don't earn that high after graduation.

So maybe the US government should have forced the steel companies to compete on their own, I guess we'll see the answer if their is a trade war.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:00 am

The Economist editorial on this subject (before decision)

http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=1019934&CFID=3429778&CFTOKEN=f3afd8-7194508e-0171-4105-9552-723bd0963f81

" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:54 am

Working for a massively tax-payer subsidised indutry yourself it isn't at all surprising that you agree with this.

Sorry Pacificjoruney, but my industry is not massively tax-payer subsidized. The airlines received a ONE-TIME government grant WHEN THE GOVERNMENT STOPPED US FROM FLYING FOR FOUR DAYS-that's what the grant covered-the losses we incurred on those days that we were NOT ALLOWED to do business!! Now, you can cry about that, but how much would the flying public be crying had 3, 4, 5 carriers gone under because we were grounded? This history of aviation in the US is not of subsidies-in Europe, and in other places in the world? That's another story.

The steel industry is different-it's been getting killed by cheap-labor steel makers overseas for 2 decades, and I think, reluctantly, if it's going to have a chance to survive, a tarriff is necessary in the short run. Comparing the two is a bit far-fetched on your part.
 
watewate
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 12:32 pm

I second the notion that this tariff is just delaying the inevitable. It's time for US to wake up and realize that it just cannot compete with others when it comes to steel. Better eat the crow for a quick death rather than dragging this out and making it a slow, long, painful death (not to mention wasteful).
 
cfalk
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 2:48 pm

Alpha,

If you read my earlier post, you'll find that there is no employment benefit by saving the steel industry, unless it is saved by becoming more efficient and competitive. It's just that the employment opportunities inside the U.S. that are killed by these tariffs are diluted across many industries.

Why would you want to keep the steel mills open, as they are? The unions and old-style management have slaughtered any chances of efficiency.

The better choice is to not impose the tariffs, let the steel mills go under, and watch the industry start afresh a few years later, union free, efficient, and competitive. The U.S. has what it takes to have an excellent steel industry, but the current system doesn't work.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 2:58 pm

Yup....

I'm no economist, but I have had a few classes. And this tariff just sounds like a bad idea. Best to let the nations that have a comparative advantage in steel-making take care of it. It'll be better for everyone in the long run.
 
PanAm747
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 3:50 pm

>>I'm no economist, but I have had a few classes. And this tariff just sounds like a bad idea. Best to let the nations that have a comparative advantage in steel-making take care of it. It'll be better for everyone in the long run.<<

As stated earlier, the production of steel is critical to National Security. You can't just outsource it. National Security depends on a country's ability to develop, build, and use its weapons.

If a war occurrs and the USA asks China (one of the world's largest steel producers) to make steel for the war and China declines, well then the war is over, it's as simple as that.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 3:54 pm

Whatever happened to the idea of free trade? First softwood lumber and now this...its the 80s all over again.
 
Guest

RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 4:19 pm

As stated earlier, the production of steel is critical to National Security. You can't just outsource it. National Security depends on a country's ability to develop, build, and use its weapons.

Good point. I didn't really think about that... (How did I miss that one. I read all the posts...) So, maybe there are other factors at work here other than equilibrium, and free trade, and comparative advantage. I'm all for a free market, but not if it compromises national security.

And like I said, I'm no economist.

'Speed

 
cfalk
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 4:57 pm

True, it is a national security issue to an extent. However, with all the management knowhow, skilled labor force, resource and cost bases in the U.S., there is absolutely no reason why the U.S. cannot produce high quality steel as cheaply as S. Korea and China, and especially Europe. No reason.

If you let the current players die out, that will lower the industry entry barriers to new players, who can start with a clean slate, no unions or bloated overheads. Within 5 years, I expect that the steel industry can be revitalized and competitive on world markets.

Tariffs are politically expedient, but the wrong way to go.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
D L X
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 5:08 pm

Just curious, cuz this isn't an area of expertise for me.

Why can't we (the US) make steel competitively against EU manufacturers? The EU of course has similar "1st world" living standards. Do EU steel companies get subsidy from the goverment to promote employment? What does the EU company have that the American one does not?
 
cfalk
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 5:18 pm

DLX,

Here's why. Unions, management practices and production technology more in tune with the 1930's than with the 21st century, so entrenched that it will take bankruptcy to shake it out, at a stretch. Ideally, you want to start anew with a clean slate.

Remember that all these steel mills in the Far East and Europe are recent constructions - they had nothing after WWII. How old are some of the American steel mills? Rip them down and build modern ones! Producing as cheaply as the Far East would be a challenge, but should be possible. Europe should be a piece of cake, with their high employee costs.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Scotty
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 5:49 pm

There has been substantial cutbacks in steel production in the EU, especially in countries like the UK where massive privatisation has taken place over 20 years or so. It is against EU State Aid regulations to subvent the production of steel in any member state. And only a few member states have any steel manufacturing capacity at all. So whilst many of the dinosaurs have gone to the wall, taking outdated management practices with them, a lot of new small companies which target specific marktes, have sprung up, all producing to meet their own market demand, often in export.

The US industry claims to have modernised but looking at some of the above posts and watching the TV stuff, it seems that they havent really and EU countries are more competitive because there has been wholesale cutbacks in production to match demand.

Re defence etc.. that is surely part of the normal level of demand in the US anyway, unless you're going to start churning out Liberty Ships again!

Scotty
 
racko
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Wed Mar 06, 2002 7:35 pm

It seem's that with the WTC also the attitude of "world trade" died in the united states.

First the huge subsidies for the airlines, and now this decision.

It seem's like the USA of the 21st century doesn't want to have any friends...
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:27 am

The claims of there being a national security issue are totally bogus. As Scotty points out we are not talking about the possible future need for building 100's of liberty ships or thousands of tanks here.

We are talking about planes and armoured vechiles made from high grade alloys (among other materials) which the US mini-mills make in abundance, at a profit and without government protection. This tariff protection is for those un-reformed industrial dinosaurs for which the post-industrial economy has - surprise, surprise - less demand for the type of steel they produce.

If anything US national security would be strengthened by market driven reforms of the heavy steel sector.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
donder10
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:35 am

I can agree with the bailing outs of the airlines because as Alpha said,they were prevented from doing buisness for 4 days.On the other the steel industry is just inefficient ,so why bail out an efficient industry?
 
Superfly
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:19 am

IT'S ABOUT TIME! ! ! ! ! !! !

*This has to be the smartest move by ANY republican President in over 80 years!
I am very suprised but very happy to see GW do this.
It's about time our leaders protect Amercian jobs. Tariffs had always been at about 30% untill 1973 when Nixon idiot lower them to current levels, thus started the demise of the working class.
GW isn't paying back any political favors. He maybe doing this to win states that Gore won in 2000 like Michigan, Pennsylvannia and Illinois. He may not be able to count on his little brother to give him Florida next time around but that belongs in another topic  Smile

None the less, I applaud his efforts.






* No you are not dreaming. Superfly is actually praising the bastard in the White House.



Bring back the Concorde
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:29 am

superfly

That is exactly the point. American jobs are NOT being protected, American steel companies are being protected !

In the short term related industries (cars, ships ...) whose prices will rise and sales consequently fall due to higher steel prices resulting from the tariffs WILL shed workers.

Long term steel workers will lose thier jobs anyway as the steel companies will now have less incentive to become competitive and eventually the price of protecting them will simply get too high.

This doesn't even count the number of people who WILL be laid of due to retalitory action by other countries.

I do hope you were being facicious as you really don't have anything to celebrate here. Steel Companies 4 - Every body else 0 !!!
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
Superfly
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:55 am

American steel companies are being protected !

So be it!


Would you be content with working class settling for telemarketing jobs?
The steel industry is not a short term industry. Look around you Pacificjourney, chances are, you'll find something made of steel.
I don't see the steel industry dying any time soon either. This will not cost jobs in other industries.

Who ever used the national security argument has been watching too many war movies.  Insane
If GW said it, then I pity him.
Bring back the Concorde
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Thu Mar 07, 2002 2:07 am

Sorry Superfly but you just have this one all wrong. Nobody wins from this, Nobody !!!
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
Superfly
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Thu Mar 07, 2002 2:17 am

Every industry has it's peaks and valleys.
The steel industruy is a very solid industry. It's been around for over 150 years. I don't forsee a demise in the industry.
I think history serves a good lesson.
Was the steel industry hurting pre-1973 when tariffs were at 30%?


Power to the people!

The working class will rise up!
Bring back the Concorde
 
Guest

RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Thu Mar 07, 2002 2:39 am

Tariffs essentially amount to long-term corporate welfare for short-term political benefit. They are almost never temporary nor short-term, even if that's their stated intent.

Worse yet, they are normally applied selectively to industries with the money and the savvy to influence key politicians and afford skilled lobbyists (or 'government relations consultants', as they prefer being called.)

Industries unable to afford this clout, especially those whose employees are widespread and thus not concentrated on any one politician's turf, are rarely afforded such favours. If they don't have the clout, they're not going to get much sympathy in Washington or any other capital city in the world if they aren't happy with the higher prices associated with tariffs. (Those with clout at least have the advantage of bargaining for favours of their own.)

Like I said, when it comes to politics, you can't possibly be too cynical. That's how the game has always been played, and always will be.

 
Superfly
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Thu Mar 07, 2002 3:03 am

Mcdougald:
I agree with you except on the corporate welfare comment. That's what tax loopholes are.
Lower water prices for tobacco farmers in North Carolina is an example of corporate welfare. What good has that industry done for us?
The steel industry is an honest industry that employs thousands of hard working men and women. It must ne protected.
What are airplanes, cars and buldings made of?
I don't see an end to any of those industries.

Bring back the Concorde
 
PanAm747
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Thu Mar 07, 2002 3:16 am

Superfly, it is about national security.

Wouldn't you want any and all weapons material to come from the USA instead of China, Korea, and so on? You never know what will happen tomorrow, just like we were surprised on 9/11.


>>The steel industry is an honest industry that employs thousands of hard working men and women. It must ne protected.<<

I agree, you may not know it out in SFO (except for Pittsburg California) but MANY towns and cities in the midwest thrive on the steel industry. It is a huge employer and if there are layoffs, you will soon fine restaurants and stores going out of business.

Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
Guest

RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Thu Mar 07, 2002 3:34 am

Superfly wrote: "That's what tax loopholes are. Lower water prices for tobacco farmers in North Carolina is an example of corporate welfare."

I agree -- corporate welfare goes well beyond tariffs, and is rampant. There's no shortage of jurisdictions all over the world willing to give away freebies at others' expense. What's going on in North Carolina is an excellent example of corporate welfare.

It looks good politically, even though being the cheapest is as hazardous a way to build up an economy as it is to build up a company (i.e., 'cheapest', 'free' and 'lowest cost/prices/taxes' does not necessarily mean 'best value'.)

 
Superfly
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Thu Mar 07, 2002 3:49 am

PamAm747:
I was born and raised in Gary, Indiana.
It is a depressed rust belt town. I've seen the demise of the steel industry and our entire region in the early 1980s. I can remember once thriving shopping centers now abandoned with broken windows and weeds growing in the parking lots. Entire blocks with home boarded up.
The city is now rampant with drugs and all the problems associated with it.

This is all a result of the demise of the US steel industry.
Bring back the Concorde
 
donder10
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Thu Mar 07, 2002 3:52 am

Apparently the tariff will lead to a 10%rise in the price of steel!
Superfly,do you have MSN messenger?
 
Superfly
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Thu Mar 07, 2002 3:54 am

Donder10:
I haven't set it up yet on my home computer.
I am at work right now and I really shouldn't be on the net right now. Busy deadlines we have to meet! >>-(

I'll go more in to detail later on tonight.
Bring back the Concorde
 
donder10
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RE: Bush To Impose Tarriffs On Foreign Steel

Thu Mar 07, 2002 5:32 am

Yea,you better gone on with work instead of here lol!

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