Alpha 1
Topic Author
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Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 12:11 pm

Normally, I don't touch anything this guy writes with a 10-foot pole. It wasn't filled with the normal histronics and bombast that are common with this man. A very, very interesting read.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/comment/2002/03/05/ncguest1.htm
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
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Thank You For The Laughs! 8-)

Wed Mar 06, 2002 12:54 pm

Patrick Buchanan: Europe is done.

Well done, actually!  Big thumbs up

Patrick Buchanan: Her crusades are history, her empires gone, her glory and greatness behind her.

Oh, yeah; Those were the days... When you could invade other countries on a whim; Slaughter the jews, enslave the survivors and ransack the chests and cellars... Burn anyone you please for being a witch... Conquer the world and put down native civilizations... steal their treasures and destroy everything dear to them...

Those were the days! Sigh!  Wink/being sarcastic Wink/being sarcastic Wink/being sarcastic

Patrick Buchanan: Europe wants to enjoy her golden years in peace and quiet consumption, as she slowly passes away.

Yeah; Just instead of spending our between-meals-time with scrabble and bridge, we´re wasting it on such negligible things as peacefully uniting a formerly warring and in-fighting continent... Hasn´t everybody done that, once in a while? Peanuts, really!  Wink/being sarcastic

Patrick Buchanan: Best we leave her alone with her memories and her scrapbooks.

You´re too kind, Mr. Buchanan. We wouldn´t have known what to do without you. You´re so right!  Big thumbs up

Patrick Buchanan: Ave atque vale, Europa. Hail and farewell, Europe.

Wow, he even knows a Latin phrase! Well, then, a learned man such as him would of course be right with everything he thinks and says. Any dispute would be in vain!

Patrick Buchanan: Patrick Buchanan's newest book is The Death of the West: How Dying Populations and Immigrant Invasions Imperil Our Country and Civilization.

If it´s printed, it must be true, isn´t it?  Wink/being sarcastic
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Thank You For The Laughs! 8-)

Wed Mar 06, 2002 12:57 pm

Maybe the truth hurts, Klaus, else you wouldn't have been so vociferous in your howling. I see you offered no rebuttal, excpet to excoriate the author. Is that the best you can do??
 
PanAm747
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RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 1:00 pm

As long as the USA continues to be the world's economic leader, the immigrants will choose to live in the USA.

It's common knowledge that you move to a new place because of better job prospects.

They did it at Ellis Island and they still are doing it.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 1:07 pm

The way things are going, Europe, by 2050, will be in the Islamic sphere of influence. Then where will all the Europeans flee to?
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
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Alpha 1

Wed Mar 06, 2002 1:13 pm

Alpha 1: Maybe the truth hurts, Klaus, else you wouldn't have been so vociferous in your howling.

Actually, I was howling with laughter, if you really managed to miss it...  Big thumbs up

Alpha 1: I see you offered no rebuttal, excpet to excoriate the author. Is that the best you can do??

Right now, yes, it isBig grin
But tomorrow - if I haven´t died out till then - I may have composed myself enough to collect a response that is at least slightly less absurd than the original text...  Wink/being sarcastic

Thank you! You made my day!!  Smile
 
Hepkat
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RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 1:20 pm

This whole world and everything within it seems to act like a self-balancing scale. Leaning too far to one side causes it to exert an equal and opposing force.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Alpha 1

Wed Mar 06, 2002 1:23 pm

If it made your day, then you must not realize how sorry Europe is getting to be, as a force in the world. That's your problem though. For once in my life, I agree with that right-wing loonie. Every dog has his day, I guess.

It's too bad that Europe is all washed up.
 
Alpha 1
Topic Author
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RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 1:28 pm

This whole world and everything within it seems to act like a self-balancing scale. Leaning too far to one side causes it to exert an equal and opposing force.

Hepkat, please enlighten us as to what that means in the context of this story?
 
An-225
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RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 3:08 pm

Some people take good ole Pat way too seriously. Big grin
Money does not bring you happiness. But it's better to cry in your own private limo than on a cold bus stop.
 
johnboy
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RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 6:45 pm

Oh well, The Mexicans are reconquering the US, and the Muslims are reconquering Europe. Where's a right wing zealot supposed to live these days anyway?
 
ryanb741
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RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 6:56 pm

Rather than retreating into its shell, the EU supertate has been set up to DIRECTLY compete with the USA. Why does nobody see that, preferring to cite 'harmonisation' BS

As for immigrants going to the USA - the EU as a whole receives roughly 11 times more immigrants per year than the USA.

If anything, the US is losing power - just watch the Chinese begin to expand control economically. I do agree that the developing world will give rise to a new powerhouse within 10 years or so, especially the Far East.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
petertenthije
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RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 7:11 pm

200 years ago everyone thought the Dutch empire would never fall.

100 years ago everyone thought the English empire would never fall.

Now everyone (in the US anyway) thinks the US empire will never fall. Does anyone happen to see a pattern?

As I see it, the US is going down slowly, and Europe is going up slowly. Going up fast is Asia. They will overtake the US and Europe with it. It won't happen today, it wont happen tommorow, but it will happen.
Attamottamotta!
 
eg777er
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RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 7:21 pm

"Europe — wholly dependent on Arab and Gulf oil"

As opposed to the US - which isn't???? (And don't talk to me about Alaska - it's peanuts).

I was treating this article with a modicum of respect until the last quarter. Mr. Buchanan, if European Immigration is such a bad thing, why is it OK for the US? I believe there are more Muslims going to the US than Europe anyway - why should Europe not be able to cope with them?

And don't give me that 'never experienced mass immigration' line - Europe was accepting people across its borders when the US was sitting in it's own shit. Case in point - Even prior to 1900, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone out of the UK's then 40 million people who could be counted as an 'Ethnic Briton' - were all Anglo Saxons in varying forms - Scottish, Irish, Scandinavian, French, German etc. etc. It's just happening on a larger scale.

Perhaps the real reason is Mr. Buchanan recognising that the 'war on terror' is flawed (why not 'war on the causes of terror' - and put terrorism in the bin forever - but wouldn't that mean kicking out regimes in Kuwait, Saudi and UAE which support the US with their oil?!) and that with a population of 400 million people shortly to be united, the days of US economic superiority may in fact be numbered?
 
eal401
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RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 7:36 pm

That's all cool with me. When President "Duh"bya Bush made his Axis of Evil speech (complete with trademark smirk), all the European heads of state went "Um, was that a good idea saying that?" Which distanced themselves from it. Which indicated a lack of support for it. That makes Europe look weak?

What it does mean is that the next terror attack by people that statement WILL have pissed off WILL be on US soil.

It would be preferable if that didn't happen of course, but if it does I would rather see American cities attacked and American civilians killed than my own thank you very much. Particularly if it has been because of some ill-thought comment. Next time, it might be a nuke and not an airliner, and I don't want that in my country because someone has associated us with the same comment.

When it was suggested that Sep 11 was due to the perception of America in the eyes of the perpatrators, i.e. that America was arrogant, people were on here screaming blue murder. Yet, your president then made a speech like that. Hardly backed anyone up did it?

The reason Europe didn't like it (and other countries) is because the statement was hugely provocative. All I can say is don't go crying to anyone when the news if filled with dead American civilians because someone took exception to the comment. This is the real world, it's not like this forum, where everything is "fought" with words! People hear their country refered to as evil, they get annoyed. And they can hit back.

Funny how if someone mouths off America, they are OBL loving scum, yet America can say what they like when they like isn't it.
 
PanAm747
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RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 8:54 pm

>>As I see it, the US is going down slowly, and Europe is going up slowly.<<

How, what, why, when, where.......


Please add facts to your comments. We are still an economic superpower, a military superpower, and all the other superpowers. I believe this is generally understood by the world.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
Staffan
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RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:25 pm

That article really cracked me up. I wonder...if in 1950 there were such articles about how Europe would be so over populated in a few decades?  Laugh out loud

Also, after every war in the middle east, Europe is overflooded with refugees, perhaps an other reason we don't want another war?

Thanks for giving us this...errr...intelligent article  Big thumbs up

 
PanAm747
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RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:45 pm

Eal401-

>>I would rather see American cities attacked and American civilians killed than my own thank you very much.<<

That's disgusting.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
eal401
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RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:09 pm

Maybe so, but when it's the leader of that country who has been provocative, as Bush was with his axis of evil speech, I would rather his country suffer the consequences of his actions and not anyone else for being considered allies of that country.

Better it didn't happen at all (which you'd have known had you bothered reading all of my post), but that is an unrealistic wish given the fanatics that will have been annoyed by such sabre-rattling.
 
Klaus
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PanAm747

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:12 pm

PanAm747: We are still an economic superpower, a military superpower, and all the other superpowers. I believe this is generally understood by the world.

Check your facts, please! The military area is basically the only one where the USA are still #1.

Economically, even the Euro-Zone is bigger than the USA. And that doesn´t include Britain, not to speak of the new candidate countries.

Politically, the USA have more or less completely abandoned any leadership. It´s all about the military now; Political influence and credibility are decreasing as we speak.

Politically, Europe has worked consistently on building mutual relationships all over the world. Most people just prefer to deal with others on a level playing field, for some reason.

The european union - troubled as it still may be - is another asset: Formerly bitter enemies have demonstrated that it´s possible to come to a true peace through pragmatic cooperation. Building stable and mutually satisfying relationships between partners of very different kinds and sizes isn´t easy, but we managed to do it. Europe can be a model for peaceful and constructive solutions in many regions of the world.

The modern USA have a rather troubled record when it comes to foreign relations. Often well intentioned on the surface, but even more frequently driven by an urge to dominate rather than cooperate. As a consequence, most nations still want to have positive relations with the USA, but there´s not really a lot of trust. Trust is something between friends; Minions are kept in line by fear only.

Breaking treaties left and right whenever it seems profitable won´t promote trust in the US government, either.

Democracy? The latest presidential election has cast a pretty unflattering light on the US system. "Buying influence" á la Enron won´t help much, either. Certainly not everything is "better" over here, but I´d still prefer our german system by far. (Which is quite similar to most other european countries.)

Human rights? Death penalty, discussion about re-introduction of torture; Large influence of religious bigotry; Breaking of international treaties, consistently supporting dictators and oppressive regimes as long as they are "useful" - the list goes on!


No, the USA definitely aren´t "evil"; And I´m confident that they´re strong enough to overcome many of their problems. And even willing to do so on many counts...  Wink/being sarcastic
The USA have often been a positive and stabilizing influence; It would be good to see more of that in the future.

Is Europe trouble-free, on the other hand? Not a chance! We just learned to cope with difficulties realistically, even if often the hard way. Slowly growing out of the near-complete military dependency on the USA (which had been quite comfortable for both sides, by the way Wink/being sarcastic) will take time. But when it comes to self-defense and the implementation of peace initiatives, stronger participation will be necessary.

Europe and the USA will still (and should!) stand together in the world. Neither side has the right to disregard the other.

I think the main difference between Europe and the USA is not so much in the basic values or in some kind of absolute "quality" (whatever that might be); It´s more in the sense of reality, looking at others and at oneself with the emphasis on learning instead of vain self-congratulation.

And I don´t think that even the mightiest military force can supply a substitute for that.
 
Scotty
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RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:17 pm

Until last January, Europeans and the US were unshakeable friends and allies. It is sad that the current US President has sought to end this relationship, apparently forever, as there can be no turning back once the forces of insularity are unleashed in the US. As we have seen all too well in Europe, the next step is fascism and national hysteria.

 
Guest

RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:18 pm

USA an economic superpower???

US Mills filing for protection

Since October 2000, these steel mills have filed for bankruptcy protection:
Company Headquarters
Act Bending & Steel Peoria, Ill.
Bethlehem Steel Bethlehem, Pa.
East Coast Sheet Metal Willards, Md.
Edgewater Steel Oakmont, Pa.
Erie Bronze & Aluminum Erie, Pa.
Erie Forge & Steel Erie, Pa.
Excaliber Tubular Ballwin, Mo.
Form Tech Steel Temperance, Mich.
Freedom Forge Burnham, Pa.
Great Lakes Metals Bridgeview, Ill.
GS Industries Charlotte
Hannibal Iron & Metal Hannibal, Mo.
Heartland Steel Terre Haute, Ind.
Industrial Metals of the South Fort Lauderdale
Laclede Steel St. Louis
Mountain Metal Products Margaretville, N.Y.
National Metal Technologies Oceanside, Calif.
Northwest Structural Steel Wauconda, Ill.
Ottawa River Steel Toledo, Ohio
Precision Specialty Metals Los Angeles
Ranken Ironworks Champaign, Ill.
Renco Group New York
Riverview Steel Glassport, Pa.
Smith Steel Casting Marshall, Texas
Southeastern Steel Florence, S.C.
Specialty Steel Machining Hammond, Ill.
Swedish Metal Pendergrass, Ga.
Wheeling-Pittsburgh Steel Wheeling, W.Va.
Winthrop Steel Fitchburg, Mass.

Source: BankruptcyData.com
 
PanAm747
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RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:22 pm

Klaus you seem pretty confused...

In another thread:

Tbar220: So now, IMHO, the United States needs to step in and intensly try to broker a peace deal. George Bush is doing absolutely nothing to force a peace between the two, saying that it is up to the Israelis and Palestinians.

Klaus-I agree.


In this thread:

Politically, the USA have more or less completely abandoned any leadership.

Another statement by you:

The modern USA have a rather troubled record when it comes to foreign relations. Often well intentioned on the surface, but even more frequently driven by an urge to dominate rather than cooperate. As a consequence, most nations still want to have positive relations with the USA, but there´s not really a lot of trust. Trust is something between friends; Minions are kept in line by fear only.

But then a statement by your friendly European leader says this:

``We should make sure these very brave people who lost their lives did not do so in vain,'' British Prime Minister Tony Blair said in Australia, calling for the world to redouble its efforts to stamp out terrorism.-From Fox News

So what is it everyone, you act like women shopping for clothes.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
PanAm747
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RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:25 pm

Scotty-

>>Until last January, Europeans and the US were unshakeable friends and allies. It is sad that the current US President has sought to end this relationship<<

Again, you better check with Mr. Blair first.

Lautir-

That makes no sense.

Let's compare the growth of technology in Silicon valley with Europe then.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
Alpha 1
Topic Author
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RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:30 pm

EAL, you've put yourself right up there with Goodbye, ADG and these other mindless idiots who are such cowards deep at heart. And, as usual, you put the cart before the horse. Here we have countries that our President has named, that have been "provocative" for years-exporting arms and terror all over the world, and you have the gonads to say Bush is provocative? What reality do you live in.

And your statement about that you'd rather see Americans die than those in your own country is such a pathetic, cowardly statement, that it is breathtaking in it's utter inhumanity. Then you slavishly try to cover your arse by saying "oh, but better it didn't happen at all". Then why didn't you have the grace just to say that, instead of saying "well, if it's going to happen, better some Americans and their provocative president".

The attacks were on American soil, but OBL has said himself that it was an attack against Western culture-last time I looked you country was part of that Western, democratic culture. If you had half a brain, you'd realize that it was an attack on an ideal, a way of life, a shared vision that the U.S. and Europe have shared for quite a long time: the ideals of freedom and liberty; a way of life that allows one to become anything they want; a shared vision that the world is decent and tolerant. This scumbag OBL, and those like him wish not to only destry the US, but all of Western civilization. Remember that in all your damnations of the US. Would you rather live in an OBL world, or a world like the US and Britian and other western countries have enjoyed?

You're pathetic rationalizations is EXACTLY why the U.S. can no longer count on Europe as a trusted ally-because of selfish, cowardly statements such as this-not only by the likes of you, but European leaders as well, who have expressed similar sentiments. Maybe the attack won't come there simply because there's nothing there worth attacking, perhaps?

Whatever small amount of respect I had for you is forever gone. If you truly wish that anything bad happen, happen to me and my citizens, you can go jump in the lake.
 
Joona
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RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:34 pm

Alpha 1, if the Finnish president made this speech about the "axis of evil," wouldn't you rather hope Finland and Finnish citizen to be killed than the Americans? Wouldn't you? Or would you rather see your own people dying for something a leader of a different country said?

I agree with EAL. If there should be a terrorist attack towards the west because of Bush's speech of the "axis of evil," I would much rather want Americans to be attacked and killed than Finnish.

We will not pay the consequences for something the US (=Bush) has done.

However, I also emphatize I do not want to see anyone dying. Not even Americans even if they were the "right and only" target to attack.

Joona
1740 days idle. Beat that.
 
Guest

RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:34 pm

PanAm747:

"growth of technology" in Silicon Valley:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_1608000/1608023.stm
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:37 pm

Obviously economies run in cycles.

Companies can't make profits for 10,000 years in a row.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
Staffan
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RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:40 pm

"Obviously economies run in cycles."

So does birth rates...


 
Alpha 1
Topic Author
Posts: 12343
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RE: PanAm747

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:43 pm

Check your facts, please! The military area is basically the only one where the USA are still #1.

ROTFL, Klaus, show me someone who is a bigger economic superpower? The EU? Please. China. Riiight.
Another person with his head in the sand! Maybe the EuroZone is bigger, but it is in no way the economic power the US is. The US economy STILL is the economy that drives the world economy.


Is Europe trouble-free, on the other hand? Not a chance! We just learned to cope with difficulties realistically.


You're joking, right? Realistically? Like doing what Europe has CONSTANTLY done throughout it's history when faced with crisis: trying to appease those who cause the trouble in the first place: the Nazi Germany's, the Iraq's, the Iran's, the North Korea's. Haven't you guys learned anything from your long, bloody history? Wnen faced with countries or entities who will not live and let live, as these nations have show over a long period of time, the only way to deal with them is BY STANDING UP TO THEM!! Pulling a Neville Chamberlain won't solve ANYTHING. It never has and never will.

I think the main difference between Europe and the USA is not so much in the basic values or in some kind of absolute "quality" (whatever that might be); It´s more in the sense of reality, looking at others and at oneself with the emphasis on learning instead of vain self-congratulation.

ROTFL! That's funny. Agian ,we're faced with the mindset of the "mature" Europe and the "immature" US. That's such a load of hogwash. If Europe has learned over the years, then why, for almost 100 years, was it almost at war constantly? Why did it take a US-led coalition to keep Europe at peace for the last 60 years. If not for US influence, Europe would have done what it's done for ages-wage war. We saw a microcosm of that in the Balkans recently. What makes you think Europe, in it's historic form, has "learned" anything.

What Europe hasn't learned that you don't appease and placate bullies. Maybe you feel that way because you haven't faced an attack like the US recently has. Maybe Europe would have a different perspective if such an attack were to have befell their soil. I pray that never happens to any of us again, but if it does, who do you think Europe will turn to for support and guidance? You got it-that same "immature" country that you all so openly bash now.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

PanAm747

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:45 pm

PanAm747: Klaus you seem pretty confused... In another thread:

Tbar220: So now, IMHO, the United States needs to step in and intensly try to broker a peace deal. George Bush is doing absolutely nothing to force a peace between the two, saying that it is up to the Israelis and Palestinians.

Klaus: I agree.

PanAm747: In this thread:

Klaus: Politically, the USA have more or less completely abandoned any leadership.

Exactly. The current devastating state of the Israel/Palestine conflict is to a large extent due to the lack of initiative on the part of the Bush administration. Leadership is required here even more than anywhere else - and Dubya is still twiddling his thumbs.

The ongoing palestine conflict is by far the most fertile breeding ground for terrorism on the planet. It has supplied european terrorism during the 70s, and it still motivated the 9-11 terrorists.

If you´re not drying out the supply, you can just forget about the plumbing all over the place! It´s even possible that an active and constructive role of the US government in palestine would have spoiled the atmosphere for the 9-11 attackers.



PanAm747: Another statement by you:

Klaus: The modern USA have a rather troubled record when it comes to foreign relations. Often well intentioned on the surface, but even more frequently driven by an urge to dominate rather than cooperate. As a consequence, most nations still want to have positive relations with the USA, but there´s not really a lot of trust. Trust is something between friends; Minions are kept in line by fear only.

PanAm747: But then a statement by your friendly European leader says this:
``We should make sure these very brave people who lost their lives did not do so in vain,'' British Prime Minister Tony Blair said in Australia, calling for the world to redouble its efforts to stamp out terrorism.-From Fox News

So what is it everyone, you act like women shopping for clothes.


And the contradiction would be where, please?

Of course the whole world has responded to the personal and national tragedy in New York! And of course there´s still friendship between the people of the world.

But sadly, some governments are bent on ego-driven, unilateral policies that won´t produce much more than widespread alienation - hopefully limited to the governmental level, at least.
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:46 pm

You keep talking about the EU instead of specific countries.

Well the USA can theoretically set up a similar organization and then compare itself to that.

How about we compare NAFTA numbers?
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
Alpha 1
Topic Author
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RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:49 pm

Alpha 1, if the Finnish president made this speech about the "axis of evil," wouldn't you rather hope Finland and Finnish citizen to be killed than the Americans? Wouldn't you?

Maybe that's the difference between me and you Joona. I would have applauded the Finnish leader for standing up for what is right. And if someone would attack Finland for such a statement, I would back Finland wholeheartedly, not say "I'm so glad it was them, not us".

And like EAL, why can't you just have a little humanity and say "I hope no one get killed", instead of that selfish, dehumanizing statement "I hope if anyone gets killed its Americans". How arrogant.
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:49 pm

What a weird attempt to promote a - let's say: *atchoo* controversial *caught*- book ...

It is true: The US is - at least: currently - superior in many ways and Europe needs the US. On the other hand: the US needs Europe and the rest of the world as well. How can the Bush administration force other governments to bring terrorists to justice or to control trade routes the administration continues to provoke other countries?
War on terrorism? O.k., seems clearly to be neccessary. But military power isn't everything. Europe is spending quite an amount of money and diplomatic efforts into making regions in far east or middle east more peaceful. I'm positive we need both.

Buchanan scrawled:
The halcyon days of the Great Alliance are over. Any U.S. war in the arc of crisis from the Middle East to Central Asia will be fought without NATO.

The end of NATO is going to become true and sometimes I wonder what members of the new funded alliance against terror will think of it: Maybe "What's worth it?" or: "How long will it last?" Shiite and Kurd minorities in the Iraq can already sing a sad song concerning american illoyalities (not that the Europeans behaved much better).

Europe "done" or "fading away"? Obviously, Buchanan does not expect his new pamphlet to be available in a couple of years anymore.
And obviously he is forgetting that Europe found to new power even after two devasting World Wars. Yes, with the very much appreciated help from the US-Americans; but can Buchanan imagine the vast majority of US cities destroyed to the ground - and recover quite quickly?
Personally, I can, because I consider most Americans as even more flexible and pragmatic as Europeans are.
But history shows that Europeans are not just studing their scrapbooks of so-called days of glory.

Here come some numbers provided by the CIA: (sorry, I compare the US with Germany only)

Infant mortality rate:
USA: 6.76 deaths/1,000 live births
Germany 4.71 deaths/1,000 live births

Life expectancy at birth: total population: 
USA: 77.26 years
Germany: 77.61 years

Literacy: definition:  age 15 and over can read and write
total population:
USA: 97%
Germany: 99%

HIV/AIDS - adult prevalence rate:
USA: 0.61%
Germany: 0.1%

GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity -
USA: $36,200 (2000 est.)
Germany: $23,400 (2000 est.)

Population below poverty line:
USA: 12.7% (1999 est.)
Germany: NA%

Unemployment rate:
USA: 4% (2000)
Germany: 9.9% (2000)

Inflation rate (consumer prices):
USA: 3.4% (2000)
Germany: 2% (2000)

The only significant differences I can see are those on the GDP and the unemployment rate and both partially result from the reunion.

Regards,
NoUFO - truly wishing the US and Europe the best
I support the right to arm bears
 
Staffan
Posts: 3879
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:21 am

RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:50 pm

You are comparing NAFTA to the EU?? Give it a break...

 
eal401
Posts: 451
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:06 pm

RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:53 pm

I'd rather see no-one die at all thank you very much.

Your comments are a touch hypocritical from someone who's country has openly and gleefully celebrated murdering women and children in Afghanistan (Oh and getting the odd Taliban soldier into the bargain - well done).

Europe's relationship with America is breaking down because Bush is doing his best to do that, e.g. with the steel tarrif issue, which is anti-competitive and potentially in contravention of world trade rules. Mind you, he wasn't aware that anywhere existed outside the border of the USA. Probably needed help finding Afghanistan on the map due to the fact it's across a big ocean!

My point is that his comments have the potential for repercussions. European leaders distanced themselves for that very reason. Sorry if that seems cowardly, but Bush is letting feelings rule too much, a dangerous thing to do in world relations. Sorry if you don't like my comments about killing US citizens, but that's the point. If I mouthed off a particular group of people in public, I'd expect to cop something back, be it a kicking or whatever dependent on the circumstance. When your leader makes a provocative comment, it could be YOUR life he's putting on the line. I wouldn't want Tony Blair saying such words to the IRA, as it could be MY town centre they blow up whilst I'm shopping there. I'm not blindly saying I WANT Americans to be killed, just saying you should all watch out.

The US doesn't need us as an ally anyway, you seem pretty hell bent on doing what the hell you want anyway and stuff anyone who complains.
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:53 pm

Where is the help from Europe?

On one hand you say that the foreign relations of the USA makes terrrorists but in the same breathyou want Bush to do more in the Middle East?

And then you guys sit over there and say don't kill my country, kill the USA their the ones who did it all.





To finally solve this argument, how about you fax your Mideast Plan to Bush today (you have one right?). We'll take it from there and implement it and do all the dirty work. Then if things go great you'll be king of europe and will take all the credit. But if things go bad you'll tell them it's the USA's fault and be glad they aren't going after you.


That's what you want is it? The chance to have vicory without any threat of failure.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:57 pm

"You're pathetic rationalizations is EXACTLY why the U.S. can no longer count on Europe as a trusted ally-because of selfish, cowardly statements such as this-not only by the likes of you, but European leaders as well, who have expressed similar sentiments. Maybe the attack won't come there simply because there's nothing there worth attacking, perhaps?"

Errr.....United Kingdom perhaps? You're accusing us of not being a trusted ally, and Tony Blair is a real anti-american isn't he?

Sorry mate..but the UK has given the americans more support than any other european country. Maybe you should be more specific with which country you accuse, instead of just referring to everyone as "europeans"
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Alpha 1

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:58 pm

Alpha 1You're pathetic rationalizations is EXACTLY why the U.S. can no longer count on Europe as a trusted ally-because of selfish, cowardly statements such as this-not only by the likes of you, but European leaders as well, who have expressed similar sentiments.

No european leader has said anything similar to this. EAL´s statement was stupid, I agree on that. But taking him as a representative witness for all of Europe would be as silly as taking you as a representative of the USA. If that were so, we should probably sever all links to the US immediately.
Fortunately, that is not necessary.  Wink/being sarcastic

Political leaders occasionally do and say stupid things. (Didn´t we just have the palestine topic?) I very much prefer nobody dying for these idiocies - not even those leaders themselves.

If the only ones to die in the 9-11 attacks would have been those who helped build the Taleban regime (CIA and other US government operatives), even they wouldn´t deserve to die. Even then the terrorists would have been fully responsible for their crimes.
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:00 pm

>>You are comparing NAFTA to the EU?? Give it a break...<<

Comparing the EU to the USA in terms of trade just isn't possible.

NoUFO-

You can't compare numbers like that. That's like saying if I can run a corner grocery store I can run Wal-Mart. You just can't extrapolate numbers like that. There is a wide difference in terms of population, major industries, government programs and social makeup that makes that impossible.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4443
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 3:37 am

RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:04 pm

I find it a bit suspect that Buchanan quotes figures from a United Nations project.....an organization he has made no secret of the fact that he despises.
 
Joona
Posts: 1214
Joined: Sun May 06, 2001 2:02 am

RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:04 pm

Alpha 1:

I would have applauded the Finnish leader for standing up for what is right.

I never said that statement wasn't right. It was and I fully support it. So, that's not a difference between you and me.

And if someone would attack Finland for such a statement, I would back Finland wholeheartedly, not say "I'm so glad it was them, not us".

I backed US up on 11.9.2001. I didn't laugh. I had tears in my eyes too.

And.. I didn't ask what you would say. The question in my post was: If we said that comment, and you had to choose if the attack would be in the US or Finland, what would you choose. Do not ignore this question a second time, but rather answer it. Just say US or Finland. Nothing else.

And like EAL, why can't you just have a little humanity and say "I hope no one get killed", instead of that selfish, dehumanizing statement "I hope if anyone gets killed its Americans". How arrogant.

I will paste something here. It's the last paragraph of my previous post:

However, I also emphatize I do not want to see anyone dying. Not even Americans even if they were the "right and only" target to attack.

Let me clear that up for you. You obviously in your rage or something, couldn't quite comprehend it. It says, that I do not want anyone get killed. It also says I don't want even the Americans to die even if they were the right target. No one is a right target, never.

I also never said a selfish, dehumanizing statement "I hope if anyone gets killed its Americans". I said, that if the Americans are the quilty, then they are who will pay the consequences. No one else.

Or do you expect us to pay consequences for something your country, or your leader has done or said? Because that's what you're saying. Now that is arrogant. You, Alpha 1, are an arrogant. Not me.

Joona
1740 days idle. Beat that.
 
Alpha 1
Topic Author
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:11 pm

Your comments are a touch hypocritical from someone who's country has openly and gleefully celebrated murdering women and children in Afghanistan (Oh and getting the odd Taliban soldier into the bargain - well done).

ROTFL!! You been wataching too much Al-Quaeda propoganda, EAL401? ROTFL! Gleefully killing woman and children? Where is the glee? If that is so, why is the leader of Afghanistan-AND a majority of it's people, supportive of the US? And if we've only gotten the odd Taliban soldier, then why are they not still in power in Kabul. After all, if we've only killed a few of them, I'd imagine they'd still be around. Instead they're hiding in the caves; the women and children of Afghanistan can again act like human beings; music is being played in the streets; they're playing soccer in the stadium, instead of seeing people muredred by The Taliban? EAL401, you're removing yourself more and more from the ranks of decent people.

My point is that his comments have the potential for repercussions. European leaders distanced themselves for that very reason.

Translation: because it has the POTENTIAL for reprecussions, we're too scared to do whats right, and we'd rather let the US handle it. You're right, EAL, it is cowardly.

The US doesn't need us as an ally anyway, you seem pretty hell bent on doing what the hell you want anyway and stuff anyone who complains.

The US doesn't need an ally who won't do what is right; who won't stand up to the evil that befell the world 6 months ago; who would rather appease, pacify and placate terrorists. You're right in that regard. But as I've said before, you're a coward, and this is an age that is absolutely fatal to cowards.


 
Rickster
Posts: 648
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2000 10:47 pm

RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:16 pm

With the maybe most spectacular, controversial and fascinating process in its own difficult history - becoming Europe. With all its positive and negative side effects and facets. Open borders vs. illegal immigration, multicultural society vs. growing nationalism, centralized bureaucracy vs. federalism, local interests vs. globalization, economical self-confidence vs. inferiority complex, free-market economy vs. welfare system, religious freedom vs religous fundamentalism. etc. etc.

Europe has enough stuff to deal with. Europe is busy at the moment.
Regards















 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:21 pm

Alpha1,

The attacks were on American soil, but OBL has said himself that it was an attack against Western culture-last time I looked you country was part of that Western, democratic culture. If you had half a brain, you'd realize that it was an attack on an ideal, a way of life, a shared vision that the U.S. and Europe have shared for quite a long time: the ideals of freedom and liberty;

This is exactly the speech of most european leaders shortly after 9/11. What we have now is a war fought mosty by the US with an one-percent-something-support by the Britons, mostly because the US administration said "Thanks - but no thanks."
In the eyes of Bush, America is affected by 9/11 and the rest of the western world can sit there and applause to the US.

Regards,
NoUFO
I support the right to arm bears
 
eal401
Posts: 451
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:06 pm

RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:22 pm

ROTFL!! You been wataching too much Al-Quaeda propoganda, EAL401? ROTFL! Gleefully killing woman and children? Where is the glee?

Actually that comment was based on many postings seen on this very message board by US posters. Usually in response to criticsms, some from me, on the civilian death tolls in Afghanistan. Most responses were alongs the lines of "Big Deal", "Who Cares", "So What" etc. etc.

And the only Al-Quaeda propoganda I've ever seen was being happily helped on its way by, er, CNN. And I usually just laughed or dismissed it.
 
764ER
Posts: 441
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 4:45 am

RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:28 pm

Why is it that Europeans are blinded by ignorance and self-denial when it comes to this issue?  Confused  Insane Only people outside Europe have an unbiased, clear view of what is happening. I mean, surely you can't accurately tell us what is going on in your own country.

Wait, those statements don't apply to Europe. They only apply to "other place(s)" in the world. My bad.  Sad
 
Joona
Posts: 1214
Joined: Sun May 06, 2001 2:02 am

RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:31 pm

Europe have an unbiased, clear view of what is happening. I mean, surely you can't accurately tell us what is going on in your own country.

You seem to be a professional in this subject and know more than we Europeans do. I mean, surely you can tell us what is happening, right?

Joona
1740 days idle. Beat that.
 
764ER
Posts: 441
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 4:45 am

RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:36 pm

Thank you Joona for illustrating the point BEAUTIFULLY. Big grin
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: Hail And Farewell, Europe!

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:42 pm

Why do people like alpha always start threads like these "hail and farewell, europe! as soon as you look at it, you know where it's heading. It all ends in a big flame war like this thread is.

Some people just never learn.

Arsenal@LHR
In Arsene we trust!!

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