EmiratesLover
Topic Author
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2000 11:40 pm

The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:34 pm

Given the nature of McCarthyism sweeping the media these days, it is actually quite surprising to think that some brave souls actually have the nerve to speak up against America's foreign policy aspects that hurt people in other parts of the world - and there are many such policies so it is not surprising there are many such people.

Perhaps we need to listen to just two of them.....



Rogue States? America Ought to Know
The Hyperpower Sets Its Own Rules

Phyllis Bennis is a Fellow of the Institute for Policy Studies and author of Calling the Shots: How Washington Dominates Today's UN. Her forthcoming book is Before & After: U.S. Foreign Policy and the Spetember 11th Crisis.

We hear a lot about rogue states these days. You know, the rogue states that refuse to ratify important treaties, the ones who refuse to allow international inspections of their weapons of mass destruction, the ones who ignore U.N. resolutions, who violate human rights with impunity and who refuse to sign on to human rights conventions? You know, those rogue states.

Let's get down to specifics. What would you call a country that produces the highest levels of dangerous chemicals in the world but abandons key negotiations aimed at reversing global warming? How about a country whose leader blithely announces that he is abandoning a quarter-century old arms control treaty, one the whole world understands to be the key to preventing complete nuclear madness? And what about a government that walks out of talks to enforce the biological weapons treaty because it doesn't want international inspectors peeking at its own weapons production facilities? That same country keeps rejecting human rights treaties, even the ones protecting the rights of children.

Sounds pretty roguish, don't you think? Iraq, maybe, or one of those other evil-doers like Iran or North Korea? But oops -- wrong guess. This particular rogue state would be the United States of America.

It's hard for most Americans to think of the United States as a rogue state. We're a democracy, after all. Our elections are free and fair (well, some of the time).

But our foreign policy is far less accountable to democratic ideals, or to the global community than we like to think. The problem isn't isolationism -- we're engaged (at least our military forces and our U.S. manufactured weapons are) all over the world. The problem is unilateralism -- our tendency to act out our unchallenged 'super-power of super-powers' role without concern for what others in the world think.

When the Bush administration came into office last year, unilateralism was suddenly on everybody's radar screen. One of the administration's first acts was to cut off U.S. support to any international family planning institutions that also might provide any separately-funded information to their patients about abortions. Then, what really caught the eye of policymakers and pundits, were Bush's rapid-fire moves to abandon the Kyoto protocol on global warming and the Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) treaty.

The United States produces by far the largest amount of greenhouse gases in the world -- the stuff that is destroying the ozone layer and causing dangerous global warming. In 1998, the Clinton administration had already angered most other countries when it refused to sign on to the Kyoto agreement that aimed to roll back greenhouse gas emissions. But international talks had continued, as had efforts to get the United States on board. Until Bush took office. Then, all of a sudden, Kyoto was off Washington's agenda.

In January 2002, the administration rubbed salt into the world's wound, dissing the whole Kyoto process by announcing a separate, unilateral plan. The new plan would, coincidentally, leave current U.S. greenhouse gas levels and the resulting increase in global warming virtually unchanged.

Then came the problem of weapons of mass destruction. In October 1999, the U.S. Senate refused to ratify the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, a long-sought effort at keeping the U.S. and Soviet nuclear genies closer to their bottles. The world was not amused. Many, especially in Europe, were outraged, seeing the rejection as the arrogance of what the French had begun calling the "hyper-power." So when Bush announced, in early 2001, that he planned to unilaterally abrogate the 25-year-old ABM treaty, it wasn't only Moscow that felt betrayed. The ABM treaty had served as the linchpin of strategic arms control for a generation. Bush's claim that it was "irrelevant" in the post-Cold War era fooled no one. The only thing that had become irrelevant -- to the United States -- was international concern about the Pentagon's war drive. Our super-power rival had collapsed more than a decade ago, but the government had no intention of changing its own aggressive behavior.

Only two countries in the world have refused to sign the Convention on the Rights of the Child -- Somalia and the United States.
In the summer of 2001, the United States walked out of another international conference, this one on how to enforce the 1972 treaty prohibiting biological weapons. Everybody agreed there needed to be stronger inspections of potential sites where germ weapons could be produced -- what Washington is always accusing Iraq of hiding. But this time it wasn't the Iraqis, it was us -- the U.S. delegation walked out because they refused to accept international inspections of American production facilities which the United States demanded for everyone else.
On the issue of human rights, when it comes to real commitments, backed up by international agreements, Washington falls way behind. Take the Convention on the Rights of the Child. That one should be a no-brainer.

The Convention is, according to UNICEF, "the most widely and rapidly ratified human rights treaty in history..." The Convention sets norms for what governments should provide for parents and their children -- adequate nutrition, compulsory primary education, adequate health care, safe access to play, art, and culture. Only two countries in the world have refused to sign on -- Somalia and the United States.

Unilateralism didn't begin with the Bush administration. Several years ago, the United States antagonized much of the world, including some of our closest allies, when it refused to sign the convention banning anti-personnel landmines.

For years the world had known that the mines -- cheap, easy to use -- were responsible for far more civilian than military deaths. The campaign to prohibit them, led by civil society organizations and governments such as Canada, was based on the vast suffering of civilians, most often children, in places where low-tech, high-casualty wars were taking place, often outside CNN's camera range.

The world needed a ban -- but still today the United States refuses to sign. Why? Because the Pentagon says it needs those anti-personnel mines to protect U.S. troops. What a heartless message our powerful military is sending around the globe, specifically to the legions of landmine victims, children with missing limbs growing up in the poor, mine-infested countries of the world.

Then there's the International Criminal Court. The United States spent years demanding that the world create such a court to insure that those guilty of genocide or war crimes would be held accountable. When the new court was approved, delegates from 120 countries stood and cheered. Only seven countries voted against -- led by the United States at the head of the rejectionist front. Who were Washington's bedfellows? Those stalwart democracies such as China, Israel, Libya, Iraq.

As it turned out, the United States never had any intention of signing on fearful that it would expose American troops around the world to prosecution outside the U.S. justice system. It just demanded a court for the rest of the world. The world cried foul. Finally, in the last days of his presidency, just hours before the signature deadline, on December 31, 2000, lame-duck President Clinton reluctantly signed the treaty endorsing the court -- but he explicitly rejected ever presenting to the Senate for ratification. For the United States, signing the treaty was just a way of making sure it could keep on calling the shots in future negotiations.

The United States is the strongest country in the world -- economically, militarily, strategically. But that doesn't mean we can ignore the international laws and treaties and U.N. resolutions that we demand others obey.

We're still part of the international community -- we still need the U.N. and international law. We face consequences when we throw our weight around -- being kicked off the U.N. Human Rights Commission last spring was one example. After September 11th most of the world's criticism of our unilateralism and arrogance was silenced. But now we stand in danger of losing the human sympathy that followed those attacks. Haven't we -- and the rest of the world -- had enough of Washington's rogue behavior?


Published: Mar 01 2002



Published on Monday, February 25, 2002 in the Philadelphia Inquirer
Mirror, Mirror, On the Wall, Who is the Biggest Rogue of All?In Its Unilateralist Disregard, U.S. is the Real 'Rogue State'
by Richard B. Du Boff and Edward S. Herman

Most people believe that their own country is virtuous and that only others misbehave enough to qualify as international outlaws. But the United States has elevated this popular sentiment to the level of national policy - by designating certain countries, of its own choosing, as "rogue states." The dictionary defines rogue as "a fierce and dangerous animal, like an elephant, that separates itself from its herd." By this standard, the United States, not the piddling tyrannies named by the State Department, is the world's number one rogue. Since it obliterated Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945 - cities, not military targets - the United States has bombed 18 countries, and invaded still others, with no declaration of war nor any possibility of retaliation, at least until Sept. 11. In the case of Afghanistan, the United States launched a unilateral war of revenge against a brutal regime of its own creation, although none of the 19 hijackers were Afghan and none of the thousands of "detainees" held in the United States and abroad have been charged with any participation in the crime. Furthermore, the alleged "mastermind," still at large, might well have been turned over to the United States through negotiations - which President Bush rejected outright from the start. All this is defended on the ground that we are "so good" (as the President has said) and always act in the world's interest. But in fact, U.S. actions reflect the power of corporate interests. For example, the United States refused to participate in Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development-sponsored talks in Paris in May 2001, on ways to crack down on offshore and other tax and money-laundering havens. For any other nation, this would now be highly embarrassing in the age of Enron, but such a thought would never even occur to U.S. policymakers. Or consider Bush's declaration in March 2001 that the Kyoto Protocol was "dead" - all because it might harm the U.S. economy. Bush separates himself from the global consensus based on his reading of U.S. interests alone - and his stance coincides with that of the oil industry, not with the real interests of the American people. Several U.S. unilateral positions have been geared to the demands of the military-industrial complex, and other parties advocating an aggressive foreign policy. The United States has withdrawn from the 1972 Antiballistic Missile Treaty, gutting this landmark arms control accord to the dismay of virtually every country in the world. The United States has not ratified the Comprehensive (Nuclear) Test Ban Treaty signed by 164 nations; Bush opposes it. This country rejects the Land Mine Treaty, concluded in Ottawa in December 1997 and signed by 122 countries. This country was also the only nation to oppose the U.N. Agreement to Curb the International Flow of Illicit Small Arms in July 2001. The United States rejects an International Criminal Court because our personnel might become subject to its jurisdiction. The United Nations is treated the same way: When the United States can get the Security Council to do what it wants - say, bomb Iraq in 1991 - it goes that route; if not, as with its invasion of Panama in 1989, it simply disregards the United Nations or uses its veto. In Afghanistan, the administration couldn't be bothered with the United Nations or any other international body to deal with what it declared to be a "crime against humanity": It simply bombed. As for the Guantanamo Bay prisoners, classified as "unlawful combatants," South African jurist Richard Goldstone points out that this is "not a term recognized by international law." If prisoners, they are entitled to POW treatment; if simply criminals, "under the U.S. Constitution, they've got even better protection." But for U.S. leaders, international law is for others, not ourselves. Whether an action involves waging war, with the devastation and death that "precision bombing" brings to a chosen country, or expanding environmental controls, the United States is proclaiming, more loudly than ever, that it will "act unilaterally," whatever the cost to others - and sooner or later to its own people. Richard B. Du Boff is a professor emeritus of economics at Bryn Mawr College. Edward S. Herman is a professor emeritus of finance at the Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania.
 
User avatar
lindy field
Posts: 2940
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:52 pm

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:38 pm

I dunno, I think a lot of people ignore the rogues of Malta.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:48 pm

What would you call a state that allows more freedom than any other nation on the earth?

What would you call a state who's citizens give more in charitable cause that any other state in the world?

What would you call a state who promotes freedom of religion-even a religion that seemingly is at war with it?

What would you call a state where more people emmigrate to fulfill their longings for freedom, to escape totalitarinism, to escape religious persecution?

Keep defending the likes of Al Quaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and Iraq, EmriatesLover. If you want to look for rogues, look to these murderers. I think you've knocked on the wrong door this time, and we don't want what you're trying to peddle.
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:51 pm

Very interesting articles....
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:53 pm

Yeah, about as interesting as a fly on a turd.
 
Guest

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:53 pm

EmiratesLover provided facts - Alpha 1 provided empty rhetorics...



 
eal401
Posts: 451
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:06 pm

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:58 pm

I think that comment proves your open-mindedness in general Alpha 1.

What would you call a state that allows more freedom than any other nation on the earth?

What would you call a state who's citizens give more in charitable cause that any other state in the world?

What would you call a state who promotes freedom of religion-even a religion that seemingly is at war with it?

What would you call a state where more people emmigrate to fulfill their longings for freedom, to escape totalitarinism, to escape religious persecution?


I don't know, what would you call it? Don't recognise any country on the planet from your description. Did recognise the US in the articles above though. Hmmm.
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:59 pm

Alpha 1 Yawn, yawn, yawn !!!

Change the record will you please.

Do you have any facts to back up your repeatedly stated claims that the US is the MOST free, charitable, tolerant, etc ? If these are just your opinions that is fine but please state them as opinions and enligten us as to how you came to these conclusions.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:59 pm

These 2 articles are a breath of fresh air. Dead spot on.
If u dont like these comments, then tough luck.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
4holer
Posts: 2727
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 1:47 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:59 pm

Cough! Cough! BullshCough! Cough!

A lot of unfounded assumptions incorrectly presented as fact. A dose of reality needed for the author.
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
Guest

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:03 am

What´s the "dose of reality" in this world?? 4holer, do you know the truth?
 
eal401
Posts: 451
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:06 pm

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:05 am

And what "reality" do you prescribe 4holer? Hollywood reality perhaps?
 
Guest

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:08 am

The Truth.

 
4holer
Posts: 2727
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 1:47 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:12 am

The truth is that these are opinions of writers. They are written in such a way as to bring the reader to the writer's biased point of view. No country is perfect, not mine and not yours; we all have a stinky brown eye down below. You choose to keep your nose up ours to avoid acknowledging the existence of your own. A lot of Europeans are throwing so many stones within their glass houses! That's the truth.
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4443
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 3:37 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:12 am

One American prisdoner of war was just dragged away and executed by al Qaeda soldiers.

I'd like to ask "Phyliss" how she would feel if we played by the same rules....took the hundreds of al Qaeda prisoners we're feeding, clothing and supplying basic human rights to in groups offshore from Guantanamo and systematically made shark chum out of them. Would she scream to the heavens abour our brutality? Is she doing that now about the animals who just murdered the American? Nyet.

Tell this bitch to save her righteous indignation. Obviously sometime during her life a guy looked at her funny. The petty bitterness that provokes rants like this started then.
 
eal401
Posts: 451
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:06 pm

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:18 am

One American prisdoner of war was just dragged away and executed by al Qaeda soldiers.

That's bad, that is not a good thing to happen. BUT, would anyone be surprised if the same happened vice versa? Even just once?

It's war, sh*t happens. Well, that's what many Americans on here said about Afghan civilian deaths, which numbered much more than those killed yesterday.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:19 am

Those who wanted fact, I provided them, even if someone like EAL401 denies it. We are the most charitable nation on the earth, EAL401. You can look it up. We do have more liberties than any nation on the earth, EAL401. Every nation, creed, color and faith is represented in the US because of immigration, EAL401. That's a fact.

But you're so consumed with some kind of hatred for the U.S. that you won't even accept what are facts. Why this hatred EAL, Aresenal, Lautr? Why? Because we ARE the superpower?

The fact is that "article" is an opinion-just like that of Mr. Buchanan was, nothing more, nothing less. Yet you guys howl at Buchanan's opinion, and take this one up as some sort of Gospel truth.

Maybe this is why Europe doesn't deserve to be associated with the U.S. anymore. Because they don't have a clue as to what is real in the world anymore.
 
4holer
Posts: 2727
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 1:47 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:19 am

There is no such thing as "Hollywood Reality". That is an oxymoron. The people who believe in that do not live within these shores. If you really think that the Hollywood image truly is America, you are a truly simple minded person.

Suggesting deletion of this flame-bait thread.
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
Guest

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:19 am

Eal401 - true
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:23 am

One American prisdoner of war was just dragged away and executed by al Qaeda soldiers.

Oh, for EAL401 and Joona and the like, that's ok-it was only an American, and not one of theirs. I mean, what's one American soldier? I mean, he only got what he deserved for being an American, and for Bush's policy of defending the country, right?
 
Guest

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:24 am

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/central/03/05/ret.afghan.helicopter.horror/index.html

Major Gen. Frank L. Hagenbeck, operation commander - "We body slammed them today and killed hundreds of those guys," Hagenbeck said."

Everything so simple...
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:25 am

Lautr

EAL401-blind idiot.
 
Nik
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:58 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:26 am

It must be so great to be American: The Americans are told that they are freest in the, they are told that they are always the "good guys" as Dubya would put it, they are told they are the only ones in the world who enjoy freedom of religion, and we all know that the US is the only country in the world in which people escape persecution and torture.
And, before I forget; the amount of charity given by Americans is higher than for any other country despite the US being the biggest country in the Western world.
It is only a shame that the rest of the world is out to destroy the US. Trying to force the great Americans to accept treaties in the name of evil human rights or environmental concerns that are not real. Or voicing concerns about the American foreign policies just because innocent people who live in places whose names the American President can't pronounce are being killed.
We should all know better than to ever cricicize the greatest country in the world, THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4443
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 3:37 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:26 am

Everything so simple...

Nice to hide behind vaugue little poodle-barks.

Debate your point or zip it.
 
eal401
Posts: 451
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:06 pm

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:27 am

Every nation, creed, color and faith is represented in the US because of immigration, EAL401

Exactly the same would apply to the UK.

We are the most charitable nation on the earth, EAL401.

As a whole or per capita (which would be the realistic comparison). Where can I look this up?

But you're so consumed with some kind of hatred for the U.S. that you won't even accept what are facts.

Don't recall being consumed with such hatred. Got more important things to worry about.



There is no such thing as "Hollywood Reality". That is an oxymoron. The people who believe in that do not live within these shores. If you really think that the Hollywood image truly is America, you are a truly simple minded person.

Suggesting deletion of this flame-bait thread.



There's someone who doesn't support freedom of speech and doesn't like to hear opinions other than his own! Maybe a name change to Fascistholer?? This thread gets deleted, so should Alpha 1's anti-Europe one.

 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:28 am

EAL401-you won't see American troops executing a prisoner. If you believe that, you're more naive than I first thought. But again, you ignore the slaughter of a captive, unarmed prisoner, and equate it with the death of an Al Quaeda/Taliban soldier holding a weapon?

You talk about "Hollywood Reality", but you live in such a fantasy-filled world, that Hollywood, in all its unreality, wouldn't even take up the script on it.
 
delta-flyer
Posts: 2631
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2001 9:47 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:28 am

This essay just proves that in the USA everyone is free to express his/her opinion about anything without fear of reprisal. McCarthyism is dead and buried, we have evolved since then.

And this is how we continue to evolve further -- by airing diverse ideas, debating amongst ourselves, taking two steps forward, maybe one step back, but always moving ahead. A free and open society is the only way to peace and prosperity.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
Guest

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:34 am

Heavymetal

"Everything so simple..."

It´s war isn´t it, Why so stirred up?

If you put soldiers into war you might have casualties.



http://www.thevirtualwall.org/


 
4holer
Posts: 2727
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 1:47 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:35 am

Fascistholer. That's pretty funny. Have you actually lived in a fascist state?
Not a freedom of speech issue. There are rules in this forum which are intended to eliminate threads such as this. Yes, any anti-Europe themed thread should be deleted as well.
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:37 am

ROTFL, Nik, you're such a horses ass! Haha!
 
AerLingus
Posts: 2280
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2000 9:22 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:43 am

So what do you want us to do about it? Wear Birkies, sing Kumbaya and play tambourines in front of the White House in the hope that Cowboy Dubya will suddenly renig on his sudden unilateralist policies?

I'm open to suggestions.
Get your patchouli stink outta my store!
 
eal401
Posts: 451
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:06 pm

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:49 am

Alpha 1;

EAL401-you won't see American troops executing a prisoner. If you believe that, you're more naive than I first thought.

I'm naive! ROTFL!!! You are firmly in cloud cuckoo land if you believe YOUR comment!

But again, you ignore the slaughter of a captive, unarmed prisoner, and equate it with the death of an Al Quaeda/Taliban soldier holding a weapon?

Er, n-o-o-o-o! I equated it with the mass slaughter of Afghan civilians. Just a tiny bit different. So, did this soldier who was captured by the forces he was attacking have no weapon? Note I make no mention of nationality as it is not relevant to the argument.
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:53 am

I suggest deletion dudes!
In Arsene we trust!!
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4443
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 3:37 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:01 am

It´s war isn´t it, Why so stirred up?
If you put soldiers into war you might have casualties.


Agreed 100 percent.
Murdering a prisoner is not a mere casualty. If you think it is, then let's start chumming the waters of the Caribbean tonight. I'm sure three or four hundred schooling bull sharks won't care about the politics of the al Qaeda bodies being tossed in.

And can we sh*tcan this deletion notion?.... This isn't the UN. Let's follow through on our ideas huh?


 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:10 am

Just on the subject of the execution of prisoners by soldiers, it is perfectly possible that this might occur. American soldiers are no more immune to such acts than anyone else. It appears that this may have happened during the Falklands War, with Argentinian prisoners executed by British soldiers. It isn't something to be proud of, it is something to be condemned - but it can happen.

That doesn't mean the US is evil or anything like that. It is just that sometimes these things do occur. The test of any civilised state would be that such an occurrence was dealt with after the event. The British investigated it after the Falklands and I'm sure the US would do the same if something similar occurred.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

For What They Are, Some Hard Numbers

Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:10 am

Most charitable nation

A By gross bilateral and multilateral aid

1 Japan $10,640,000
2 USA $ 8,786,000
3 France $ 5,742,000
4 Germany $ 5,581,000
5 UK $ 3,864,000
6 Netherlands $ 3,042,000
7 Italy $ 2,278,000
8 Denmark $ 1,704,000
9 Canada $ 1,691,000
10 Sweden $1,573,000

B Bilateral and Multilateral aid as a percentage of GDP

1 Denmark 0.99%, 2 Norway 0.91%, 3 Netherlands 0.80% 4 Sweden 0.72%, 5 France 0.40% 6 Belgium 0.35% 7 Finland, Switzerland 0.32% 9 Ireland 0.30%, 10 Canada 0.29% 11 Japan 0.28% 12 Australia, New Zealand, UK 0.27% 15 Germany 0.26% 16 Spain, Portugal 0.24% 18 Austria 0.22% 19 Italy, Saudi Arabia 0.20% 21 Greece 0.14% 22 Kuwait, USA 0.10% 24 South Korea 0.04%

Most free nation (this is all they had)
Economic Freedom Index (1.0 most free, 5.0 least free)

1 Hong Kong 1.3, 2 Singapore 1.45 3 New Zealand 1.7 4 Bahrain, Luxembourg, USA 1.8, 7 Ireland 1.85 8 Australia, Switzerland, UK 1.9 11 Canada, Chile, El Salvador, Taiwan 2.0 15 Austria, Netherlands 2.05 17 Argentina, Belgium 2.1 19 Iceland, Japan, UAE 2.15

Source , The Economist World in Figures 2001

The economist makes no claims as to relative religious freedom or rates of immigration, sorry.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
N202PA
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2000 9:44 pm

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:12 am

All I've got to say is that with all the good that the U.S. has done for the world, and still serving as the #1 refuge for immigrants from abroad, it's incredibly two-faced to now start trashing America at its most dire hour.

I'm not saying that the U.S. is beyond reproach...what I am saying is that no one seems to value what the U.S. does when it does right, yet everyone goes straight for the jugular when they perceive that we do wrong.

How two-faced.
 
b757300
Posts: 3914
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:27 pm

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:15 am

Sad. If we try to defend America and use one wrong word, we'll get banned. But it is perfectly ok to slam America and anyone who defends it all day long.

Just remember, Islam is a religion of peace. /sarcasm
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:16 am

EAL401, there has NOT BEEN a mass slaughter of Afghan civilians. I imagine if such a slaughter, that's only taken place in your mind, so you can vent against hte US, had taken place, Afghanistan would not be openly singing the praises of the US, would they?

You just don't get it do you? Afghan civilians have died, and that's a sad, sad thing. But an open slaugher? Where? When? How? Most of them have died in active combat zones. And again, show me where the US has only gotten a "stray" Taliban or Al Quaeda soldier. Apparently, hundreds of them were killed-IN COMBAT-yesterday.

Again, you back up your assertions with inaccurate opinions. And again, you show me where the US, in this conflict, has cold-bloodedly murdered an unarmed person. Again, being killed in a combat zone unintentionally isn't the same, in my view. Show me where a person has been dragged off-like this US soldier, and while in captivity, murdered?

You can't show me, because it hasn't happened.
 
Staffan
Posts: 3879
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:21 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:19 am

N202PA, it's only one side that is wrong isn't it?

And when everyone starts to object, shouldn't that be an indicationd that something isn't heading the right way? Critisism and advice isnt the same thing as "trashing".



 
Staffan
Posts: 3879
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:21 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:21 am

B757300, name ONE person who used ONE wrong word and got banned?
 
eal401
Posts: 451
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:06 pm

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:33 am

I posted an article on the subject of civilian deaths when it was claimed that the Afghan civilian death toll had exceeded the Sep 11 death toll. The study was undertaken by a US academic. I don't doubt that you were among those who dismissed it out of hand because it was at odds with your own ideals.

Civilians were killed in bombing raids, including those conducted with B52s, an aircraft not known for its precision bombing capability and well known for its carpet bombing capability.

You can't show me, because it hasn't happened.

Can you prove it hasn't? Because such things really are going to be openly published aren't they? It happens, read Banco's post on the subject. No evidence does not automatically mean something has not happened.
 
Guest

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:47 am

Eal401 wrote:

>>I don't know, what would you call it? Don't recognise any country on the planet from your description. Did recognise the US in the articles above though. Hmmm.

So are you saying that you are only capable of accepting CRITICISM of the US, but can't see anything postive about our wonderful country? Are you denying America's proud tradition of democracy and multi-culturalism?

I think it's very revelaing that most people who bash America on these forums have never visited the country and know absolutely nothing about it (their posts make the latter pretty obvious).

I have nothing against good-natured criticism of US policies (hey, that's what America is all about!), but some of the rabid anti-Americanism on here is a sad commentary on those who actually hold these radical views.
 
eal401
Posts: 451
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:06 pm

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:58 am

PHX-LJU:

First stamp I got in my passport was US Immigration at Dulles Airport. Four weeks spent exploring the country, well a line across from DC to LA, and I loved it.

If you had bothered reading the post you quoted, the fact that I considered those comments did not resemble ANY country in the world might just have crept into your brain. The original article made some pertinent points which were easily linked to the behaviour of the US government.
 
eal401
Posts: 451
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:06 pm

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 2:00 am

In addition to all this Alpha 1 grandly claimed how the US is the most charitable in the world, which has been proved by the quoted extract from a leading economic journal to be nothing more than a blatent lie.
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 2:11 am

'Can't we all just get along?'  Big thumbs up
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
eal401
Posts: 451
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:06 pm

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 2:16 am

Now where would the fun in that be?  Big thumbs up

Alternative answer (in smallish voice):

"grumble, grumble - 'spose so"

 Laugh out loud
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 2:25 am

And we'll all live happily ever after Big grin
In Arsene we trust!!
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4443
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 3:37 am

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 2:26 am

The study was undertaken by a US academic

Correction...I believe the study on Afghan casualties you refer to was taken by an American academic whose own views were somewhere to the left of Stalin...a professor, by the way, who came to his calculations by visiting websites and reading news stories and NOT by actually leaving the US.
 
N202PA
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2000 9:44 pm

RE: The Biggest Rogue State Of Them All

Thu Mar 07, 2002 2:30 am

N202PA, it's only one side that is wrong isn't it?

If you had read what I wrote, you would have seen that I clearly stated that the U.S. is not beyond reproach. My complaint is that everyone complains about how awful the United States is when they perceive us to be doing something wrong, yet never acknowledges what we do right for the world. And, in my book, that smacks of ingratitude.

The thing is, this isn't something that is a recent phenomenon. It's been going on for decades now. People find it extremely easy to make the U.S. its dumping ground because we are the top dog in the world, both militarily and economically. We are seen as evil or a bad influence on the world, or what have you, when we offer humanitarianism, open arms for immigrants, freedom of speech and expression, relatively low taxes and government intervention, and other positive aspects that are hard to find in many countries abroad. But no one cares about that. Everyone just automatically looks at the U.S. as the source of the world's problems and as the evil nation trying to ruin the world.

What I am saying is this: there are things that we can do better, and there are things that we should not be doing. But no matter how vehemently against my country you might be, I think you have to admit the good things we do for the world and at least acknowledge them.

Perhaps then we won't seem so evil to you after all.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: UltimateDelta, vikkyvik and 8 guests