EmiratesLover
Topic Author
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2000 11:40 pm

Letter To American Jews

Sat Mar 30, 2002 8:48 pm

As is well known, an increasing numberof courageous Israeli soldiers are now refusing to do their service in the illegally occupied territories.Since the tendency by Israelis in general is to demonize them, I believe in the necessity of not just listening about them, but to listen to them as well.

This is one of the best article I have read of the brave peaceniks dubbed Israel's army of peace that needs to be read to realize the inherently violent nature of occupation, and the brutality Israel has imposed on Palestinians and why an increasing number of Israelis who deserve our support and respect no longer wish to play the part of the oppressor.


An Open Letter to American Jews



By Assaf Oron



Passover Eve, 2002





Dear People,



Yesterday I was informed of an interesting phenomenon: a
peace-supporting Jewish organization called Tikkun published an ad
in favor of us, the Israeli reservist refuseniks, and was immediately
bombarded with hate mails and phones from other American Jews. What
ís more interesting is that even other Jews considering themselves
supporters of peace have denounced the Tikkun ad, to the extent
that some of the Tikkun Advisory Board members are resigning in
order to minimize the personal damage to themselves. This has so
saddened, alarmed and angered me, that I find myself setting aside
a half-day at the eve of Passover, and writing this open letter to
you all. As is my habit, it is quite long, so please bear with me.




Most of the 'civilized' attacks, so I understand, were seemingly
aimed at this or that detail of the Tikkun ad. This is nothing new
to me. Over the past two months since we came out with our own ad,
Iíve heard and read so many specific arguments about specific
aspects of our act. They range from petty nit-picking to plain
ludicrous, and each and every one of them can be refuted to dust
in a matter of minutes. But the moment you refute them, new specific
arguments sprout up like mushrooms. It is clear that there is
something very general and non-specific behind all this criticism.
Therefore, if you allow me, I will start from the general and only
later turn to a couple of these specific issues.


The general theme is the tribal theme. A very very loud voice (and i
n Israel nowadays, it is the only voice that is allowed to be fully
heard) keeps shouting that we are in the midst of a war between two
tribes: a tribe of human beings, of pure good ñ the Israelis ñ and
a tribe of sub-human beings, of pure evil ñ the Palestinians. This
voice is so loud, that it has found its way even to the op-ed pages
of the New York Times (William Safire, March 24 or 25). To those who
find this black-and-white picture a bit hard to believe, the same
voice shouts that this is a war of life and death. Only one tribe
will survive, and so even if we are not purely good, we must lay
morality and conscience to sleep, shut up and fight to kill--or
else, the Palestinians will throw us into the sea.

Does this ring a bell to you? It does to me. As a little child
growing up in Israel under Golda Meir and Moshe Dayan, all I heard
was that the Arabs are inhuman monsters who want to throw us into
the sea, they understand only force, and since our wonderful IDF
has won the Six Day War they know not to mess with us anymore --or
else. And of course, we must keep the Liberated Territories to
ourselves, because thereís no one to talk with. Then came the Yom
Kippur war, and for a child of 7 it was the perfect proof that
indeed the Arabs want to throw us into the sea, and what a great
opportunity it was for our glorious IDF to teach them a lesson.
I prayed for the war to continue to its natural and final end --
the complete surrender of all Arab armies. I was too small to
evaluate, then, how the war really ended; all these cease-fires
and talks were too complicated and boring, much more boring than
a war. And it seemed humiliating that WE should withdraw in these
cease-fires; I remember that the re-opening of the Suez Canal
was portrayed in our mass media as a kind of defeat.


A few years passed and a funny thing happened: those
throw-us-into-the-sea Arabs came to talk with us, and in
exchange for all of Sinai they would sign a full peace. The
IDF chief of staff (the late Motte Gur, later a Labor Party
minister) shouted that it is a hoax, that we should not believe
Saadat, but the politicians had to sign. Already a teenager, I
went and protested against the withdrawal from Sinai. It seemed
strange to me that most of the demonstrators were orthodox Jews.
After all, it was a purely logical issue: the Arabs are not to
be trusted, thatís what weíve learned from day one. Well, lucky
for the country, the government and the majority of the people
employed a different logic, and the peace with Egypt was not
missed.


But the throw-us-into-the-sea paradigm immediately found new
fields for play. There was an inconvenient reality on the Northern
border, and even though the forces on the other side (Palestinians!
Phew!) had strictly adhered to a secret cease-fire for about a year,
they were Arabs and therefore could not be trusted. So we talked
ourselves into invading Lebanon and setting up a friendlier regime
there. The mastermind of the invasion was defense minister Ariel
Sharon, and Shimon Peres, then head of opposition, voted together
with his party in favor of the invasion. Only later, when it turned
sour, and after many refuseniks already sat in jail, would the main
opposition turn against the whole affair. For me at 16 it was also
a turning point. When I understood that the government had lied to
me in order to sell me this war, I turned from 'center-rightist' to
'leftist'. Sadly enough, it has taken me almost 20 more years,
in a slow and painful process, to understand how deeply the lies
and self-delusion are rooted in our collective perception of reality.




Anyway, when Peres withdrew most of our forces from Lebanon in 1985,
the Arabs could still not be trusted. And so, to soothe our endless
paranoia and suspicion, we created that perpetual source of death
and crime ironically known as "the Security Zone." It took many
years, a lot of blood and Four Mothers ñ against almost all
politicians, generals, and columnists ñ to finally pull us out of
Lebanon. In the long and hard way, we learned that even the Lebanese
are human beings whose rights must be respected.


But not the Palestinians. Because the Palestinians are too painfully
close, like a rival sibling (and ñ may I add ñ because they have
always been so weak), we have singled them out for a special
treatment. Having them under our rule, weíve allowed ourselves to
trample them like dirt, like dogs. Weíve been doing it even to our
own Palestinian citizens (especially before 1966), but we have
perfected our treatment in this strange no manís land created in
1967, and known as the Occupied Territories. There we have created
an entirely hallucinatory reality, in which the true humans, members
of the Nation of Masters, could move and settle freely and safely,
while the sub-humans, the Nation of Slaves, were shoved into the
corners, and kept invisible and controlled under our IDF boots.


I know. I've been there. I was taught how to do this, back in
the mid-1980ís. I did and witnessed as a matter of fact, deeds
that I'm ashamed to remember to this day. And fortunately for me,
I did not have to witness or do anything truly "pornographic",
as some friends of mine experienced.


Since 1987, this cruel, impossible, unnatural, insulting reality in
the Territories has been exploding in our face. But because of our
unshakeable belief that the Palestinians are monsters who want to
throw us into the sea, we reacted by trying to maintain what we've
created at all costs. This meant of course employing more and more
and more force, with the natural result of receiving more and more
and more force in return. When a fledgling and hesitating peace
process tried to work its way through this mess, one major factor
(perhaps THE factor) that undermined it and voided its meaning was
our establishmentís endless fear and suspicion of The Other. To
resolve this fear and suspicion, we chose the insane route of
demanding full control of The Other throughout the process. When
this Other finally decided that weíre cheating him out of his
freedom (and having too many mental disorders of his own to
accommodate ours as well), violence erupted, and all our ancient
instincts woke up. There they are, we said in relief, now we see
their true face again. The Arabs want to throw us into the sea.
Thereís no one to talk with (ëno partnerí, in our beloved ex-PMís
words), and they understand only force. And so we responded as we
know and love, with more and more and more force. This time, the
effect was that of putting out a fire with a barrel of gasoline.
And thatís the moment when I said to myself, NO, Iím not playing
this game anymore.


But what about the existential threat, you may ask? Well I ask you,
have you not eyes? Donít you see our tanks strolling in Palestinian
streets every other day? Donít you see our helicopters hovering over
their neighborhoods choosing which window to shoot a missile into?
What type of existential need are we answering in trampling the
Palestinians?


Prevention of terror, I hear you say. Let me use the wonderful words
of my friend Ishay Rosen-Zvi: ìYou are ëfighting against terrorí?
What a joke. The Israeli government, in its policies of Occupation,
has turned the Territories into a greenhouse for growing terror!!!


We have sown the seeds, grown them, nurtured them ñ and then our
blood is spilled, and the centrist-right-wing politicians reap the
benefits. Indeed, terror is the right-wing politicianís best friend.
You know what? When you treat millions of people like sub-humans for
so long, some of them will find inhuman strategies to fight back.
Isn't that what the Zionists, and other Jewish revolutionaries,
argued about a hundred years ago in order to explain the questionable
strategies of survival that Jews used in Europe? Didn't our
forefathers say, ìLet us live like human beings, and see how we'll
act just like other human beings?


So here's the deal. I hope that the first part of this letter made
it clear that I donít buy the ìthey want to throw us into the sea
crap. Itís just a collective self-delusion of ours. But more
importantly, I donít see tribes. I see people, human beings. I
believe that the Palestinians are human beings like us. What a
concept, eh? And before everything else, before EVERYTHING else,
we must treat them like human beings without demanding anything in
return. And no (to all die-hard Barak fans), throwing them a couple
of crumbs in which they can set up pitiful, completely controlled
Bantustans in between our settlements and bypass roads, and
believing it to be a great act of ëgenerosityí, does NOT come
close to answering this basic requirement. This requirement is NOT
negotiable; moreover, in a perfect demonstration of historical
justice, it is a vital requirement for the survival of our own State.


After that, and based on the lessons of modern history, especially
that of the Arab-Israeli conflict (as was briefly described above),
I do believe that the Palestinians will calm down, and that the
elusive ëSecurityí and peace will finally come upon us (as it did,
incidentally, for almost two whole years between Wye 1998 and Camp
David 2000). I donít have any insurance policy for that (well
--almost none, except the solemn promise of the entire Arab world),
but remember - I have this funny notion that they are human beings.
In any case, we are seeing now all too well what type of insurance
policy the opposite paradigm is providing us.



In the meanwhile, I refuse to be a terrorist in my tribeís name.
Because thatís what it is: not a ìwar against terrorî, as our
propaganda machine tries to sell. This is a war OF terror, a war in
which, in return for Palestinian guerrilla and terror, we employ the
IDF in two types of terror. The more visible one are the violent acts
of killing and destruction, those which some people still try to
explain away as ësurgical acts of defense.í The worse type of terror
is the silent one, which has continued unabated since 1967 and
through the entire Oslo process. It is the terror of Occupation,
of humiliation on a personal and collective basis, of deprivation
and legalized robbery, of alternating exploitation and starvation.
This is the mass of the iceberg, the terror that is itself a
long-term greenhouse for counter-terror. And I simply refuse to be
a terrorist and criminal, even if the entire tribe denounces me.


That leads me to the first specific subject: are we, the refuseniks,
being persecuted and denounced, or are we enjoying the wonderful
Israeli tolerance and democracy and exploiting it to make trouble?
Well, I must admit that this is not yet the USSR or Pinochetís Chile,
and at least the Jews here enjoy a relative democracy (describing
it as vibrant or tolerant would be a gross error, but that is a
different subject altogether; maybe in another letter). I first must
point out that the government and IDF also enjoy the image of
'letting us speak', and it serves them well. Secondly, in a rather
sophisticated manner the establishment (with the generous and
voluntary help of the mass media) is effectively shutting us up.


The media has decided for us that there is no opposition. Thus, a
demonstration of 20,000 is reported in 5 seconds at the late-night
edition, and a demonstration of 500 outside a military prison is
completely ignored. The fact that right now there are over a dozen
refuseniks in jail ñ the largest number in twenty years ñ is hidden
from the Israeli public. The story of Captain (res.) Itai Haviv
and Sergeant (res.) Yair Yeffeth, who demanded a full military
trial in which they could prove that refusal is innocence and that
the order to serve in the Territories is illegal, was not told
anywhere except for a brief mention in the back pages of Haaretz.
So the public, of course, didnít learn that the IDF evaded answering
these demands, and that Itai Haviv will spend the Seder night in
prison following a ëdisciplinary hearing.í I hope the readers are
intelligent enough to know that if the media wanted, these stories
would make the headlines.


Still, you keep hearing about us. Thatís the key word, ABOUT us. But
you donít hear us. You just hear people explaining, analyzing, mostly
(in a ratio of 99 to 1) attacking us. We have become the perfect
'hate hour' figures, to reunite the tribe against (have you read
1984?) Petty ëvolunteerí groups who organized against us, a mayor
who called upon local governments not to hire us, and a group of
industrialists who called employers to fire us, have all won their
moment in the spotlight. No one cared to mention that these are
blatantly illegal calls (no, ëthe lawí is remembered only when
we 'break' it). No one has tried to set limits to this discussion.


Moreover, the prime minister in one of his rare public addresses
blamed us for the wave of terror (us, not his catastrophic policies).
The IDF chief of staff canít stop talking about us; he sees us as a
bunch of inciters with a hidden agenda. So, ironically, the only
thing protecting us from long-term ëgulagí imprisonment and from
losing our jobs is public opinion ñ the rather large pockets of
support and sympathy among key sectors in the Israeli public, and
yes, support ads such as the one published by Tikkun. The moment
the government or IDF will think the lights are out, and no one
sees or cares ñ they will find or invent the 'legal' clause (Israeli
politicians are experts in this) and throw those they believe to be
our ëleadersí to jail for long terms. Remember, even poor Abie Nathan
was thrown in for two years, just because he dared speak with PLO
personnel about peace.


But that's nothing, because the moment our government will sense a
"lights out" situation - a huge terror attack, an American attack on
Iraq - there will be a horrible bloodbath in the Territories,
compared to which the last year and a half will be remembered as
a happy picnic. And that brings me to the second specific issue,
that of the Nazi allusion.

Some readers thought that the way the Tikkun ad said "obeying orders"
was an allusion to Nazi murderers' claim that they were "just obeying
orders." Rabbi Lerner has rightly pointed out to these readers,
that automatic execution of orders is a characteristic of all
dictatorship, not just the Nazi one, while refusal on moral grounds
is a sign of democracy. I agree, but let me be less polite and
politically correct. After all, itís just my country thatís going
up in smoke as I write. What is this? Does Israel have the exclusive
monopoly of labeling all its rivals as Nazis, and everyone else has
to shut up, even when reality starts speaking for itself?


Parties that support the essentially Nazi idea of deporting all
Palestinians from the country, have been part of our Knesset and
our "legitimate" political map since 1984. Recent opinion polls
show that 35% of the Jewish public now supports this ësolutioní, as
it is sometimes called. Leaders, Rabbis, and just plain folk feel
free to call openly in the mass media to eradicate Palestinian cities
with or without their tenants. Last weekend, Gen. (res.) Effi Eitam,
fresh out of the military and all ready to take the leadership of
the religious public and become a deputy or alternative to Netanyahu,
received a flattering cover story on Haaretz supplement. He unfolded
his chilling ideology, calling to expel those Palestinians who don't
want to remain in the Galilee and West Bank as serfs, to Jordan,
and from Gaza to Sinai. And he said this: why should us, the country
poorest in land resources, bear the burden of solving the Palestinian
problem? Well I donít know about you, but I remember some of the
Nazi rhetoric in that dark period between the Kristallnacht of 1938
and the beginning of the war, when Jews were expelled from Germany
but could find no safe haven anywhere else. When I see a retired
IDF general and rising political star use the exact same Nazi
rhetoric on Israelís most ëliberalí newspaper, without any criticism
by his interviewer or the editors ñ my hair just stands on my head
in horror.



Letís move from the political scene back to the ground. My friend,
Captain (Res.) Dan Tamir, decided to refuse to serve in the
Territories about a year ago, after he realized what heíd done as a
reserve regimentís intelligence officer a few weeks before that. He
realized he had laid out the plans to convert a large Palestinian
town into a closed ghetto. You can find his full statement on our
website, www.seruv.org.il. The vast majority of Palestinians in the
Territories now starve in such ghettos; in those days of mercy when
they are allowed to leave them by foot and perhaps catch a taxi,
these taxis are forbidden from using most of the paved roads in the
region


But why listen to a "leftist"? Letís hear it from senior IDF officers.
One of the top commanders in the Territories was quoted in Haaretz
(Jan. 25) as saying that in order to prepare for potential battles
in dense urban neighborhoods, the IDF must learn, if necessary, how
the German army ëoperatedí in the Warsaw Ghetto. A week later, the
reporter confirmed this quote and the fact that this is a widespread
opinion in the IDF, and went further to morally defend it. A small
number of people, including myself, tried to raise a scandal over
this. One letter to the editor was published in Haaretz. A much
tougher letter, which I wrote, was never published, nor was my plea
for a phone discussion with an editor ever answered. The issue just
died down. No one in Israel or in the Jewish public abroad was
interested. Where were all these holy souls, who now scold Tikkun
because they indirectly allude to the Nazi horror, where were they
all when a senior IDF officer proudly called, ìin order to beat the
Palestinians, let's be Judo-Nazisî?


In my letter to Haaretz I went further. Knowing the IDF mentality
and adding one to one, I concluded that the IDF is operationally
prepared to invade refugee camps ñ an utter, indefensible war crime
- and through this leak to the press it is starting to pressure the
government and prepare the public opinion for the invasion. The l
etter was not published. It was sent on February 2. A few weeks
later we all saw the horrors of the refugee camp invasions and
the bloody revenge attacks that followed culminating on Passover eve.
And you know what? Army generals and colonels morally and
professionally pat themselves on the back, because these invasions
"prevented terror", and killed only dozens and not thousands. (Note:
in fact, the major reason limiting the bloodshed was the "terrorists"
responsible decision not to turn the camps into all-out
battlegrounds. But this may change in the next round.)

In truth, I have little hope that the Israeli public will wake up.
The Israeli public, in its fear and confusion, has made a decision
(aided by the politicians and mass media) to go to sleep and wake
up only ìafter it is all overî. But it wonít be over, because while
our mind sleeps our muscles tighten the death grip, instead of doing
the only sensible thing (which requires an open mind) ñ which is to
let go. Will you guys join the hypocrite mobs who sing lullabies to
Israel and pounce upon the refuseniks, upon Tikkun,
to shut us up? Or will you finally take responsibility and be the
true friends that Israel needs now ñ even if it means not being "nice"
to Israel for a while?


As you sit tonight at the Seder table, please remember the dozen or
so refuseniks that spend this Seder in a military jail. More
importantly, please remember the thousand or so people, three
quarters Palestinians and one quarter Israelis, who were here with
us a year ago and have been murdered. Most of them could have
been here with us, if you and we had acted sooner. We have now
acted, done what little we can do. Please think of the many
thousands that may be doomed soon, if you continue sitting on
the fence.


May you have a happy Holiday of Freedom,


Please help us struggle free from fear, racism, hatred and the deaths they
produce.

Yours,
Assaf Oron

 
go canada!
Posts: 2886
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Letter To American Jews

Sat Mar 30, 2002 8:54 pm

and what do you want as a response?

yes these people shouldnt be attacked by other jews and every one is right to have an opinion. i dont see what your aim is apart from trying to start the normal israel bashing.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Marco
Posts: 4005
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 3:41 pm

RE: Letter To American Jews

Sat Mar 30, 2002 8:56 pm

I agree with Go Canada!

emirateslover, do you get a kick out of bashing Israel?
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
avion
Posts: 2126
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:28 am

RE: Letter To American Jews

Sat Mar 30, 2002 9:10 pm

I absolutely agree!!!

Tom
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Letter To American Jews

Sat Mar 30, 2002 9:25 pm

Blimey - that's a long post for something that is so obviously going to get deleted.......
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
EmiratesLover
Topic Author
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2000 11:40 pm

RE: Letter To American Jews

Sat Mar 30, 2002 10:57 pm

``emirateslover, do you get a kick out of bashing Israel''

I'll tell you what I get a kick out of - exposing injustice and making people realize what horrific plight exists for Palestinians made to live under a brutal military occupation financed by American taxpayers.That the occupation is exposed by an increasing number of Israelis, Americans and Jews shows that even they realize what supporters of Palestinian rights have been saying all along...occupation and the injustices it brings is inherently violent and unacceptable.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Letter To American Jews

Sun Mar 31, 2002 12:07 am

There´s no "Israel-bashing" in the article. Criticism of current policy is not only valid, but often necessary in a democracy.

I must say, however, that I´m still shocked to hear that israeli forces openly look at nazi Germany´s occupation tactics, of all things, as a template for their own actions.

What else is needed to take a deep breath and reconsider what´s going on?!?
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Letter To American Jews

Sun Mar 31, 2002 12:35 am

" exposing injustice and making people realize...and the injustices it brings is inherently violent and unacceptable."

In that case, carry on, Superman!

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Letter To American Jews

Sun Mar 31, 2002 1:05 am

Why don't we find a Palestinian somewhere who has the courage to tell the murdering terrorists to stop their attacks on Jews? Oh, I get it, you don't really care about that point of view, Emriates.
 
Alpha 1
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Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

EmriatesLover

Sun Mar 31, 2002 1:13 am

Emriates, if someone came up and asked you to strap a bunch of explosives on your body, to walk into a crowed Jewish shopping area, and blow you and as many of them up, what would your response be?

Do you think this is a noble and worthy sacrifice? Or do you think the taking of such innocent like is abhorrent and below contempt?

I'd really be interested in your answer.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Letter To American Jews

Sun Mar 31, 2002 1:34 am

Alpha 1, have you even bothered to read the article, this time?

One of the tough things in growing up is recognizing it´s not good enough to just point a finger at the other side and crying "it´s all their fault!"

There are real people out there dying. Sandbox-revenge behaviour just won´t do!
 
Guest

RE: Letter To American Jews

Sun Mar 31, 2002 1:39 am

It´s amazing to see that users of this forum start to accuse others of things they haven´t mentioned in their posts
 
American_4275
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 1999 1:11 am

Klaus

Sun Mar 31, 2002 1:44 am

Klaus,
One of the tough things in growing up is recognizing it´s not good enough to just point a finger at the other side and crying "it´s all their fault!"

There are real people out there dying. Sandbox-revenge behaviour just won´t do!



That was a brilliant reply. Thank you, you made me happier knowing that someone has something insightful to say instead of just the constant finger-pointing and the bickering about whose fault it is.

Regards,
American_4275
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Letter To American Jews

Sun Mar 31, 2002 2:12 am

There are real people out there dying. Sandbox-revenge behaviour just won´t do!

Yeah, the real people dying right now are Jews, at the hands of these madmen. So don't accuse me of pointing any fingers-I'm just pointing out the facts.

And save your fatherly speech about growing up for someone who needs it, Klaus. I don't need to be lectured by someoene like you, thank you very much.
 
American_4275
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 1999 1:11 am

Alpha1

Sun Mar 31, 2002 3:11 am

Alpha1:
Yeah, the real people dying right now are Jews, at the hands of these madmen

Is that to say innocent Palestinians dying every single day from Israeli fire are not "real people" and that the only "real people" dying are the Jews?


So don't accuse me of pointing any fingers

That's basically what you just did in your last post.
 
Guest

RE: Letter To American Jews

Sun Mar 31, 2002 4:01 am

Frankly I don't see how this changes the fact that a huge number of these Palestineans are dirty terrorist scum.
 
roguetrader
Posts: 1404
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:14 am

RE: Letter To American Jews

Sun Mar 31, 2002 4:57 am

something that is so obviously going to get deleted.......

There's nothing against the rules in the post. Deletion is not for use against something you don't like or don't agree with. Quite obviously, a lot of people don't want both sides of this story told.

There´s no "Israel-bashing" in the article. Criticism of current policy is not only valid, but often necessary in a democracy.

Well, criticism is valid unless its criticism of Israel, then its not allowed. According to some, only those who are anti-semetic, pro-terrorist, or otherwise extremist would ever criticize Israel.

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
Alpha 1
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Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Letter To American Jews

Sun Mar 31, 2002 6:03 am

There's nothing against the rules in the post. Deletion is not for use against something you don't like or don't agree with.

Yeah, right! I get deleted all the time if some fob on here gets "offended" by what I say about him or her!! ROTFL!

Well, criticism is valid unless its criticism of Israel, then its not allowed. According to some, only those who are anti-semetic, pro-terrorist, or otherwise extremist would ever criticize Israel.

How is that, Rogue? You critisize Israel here all the time, don't you? And why should I think your views are "valid" when I think they're full of crap? LOL.

And guess what, I've critisized Israel in the past, but what you do goes far beyond criticism: you are on here arguing FOR the dismantalement of the State of Israel. I think that makes you anti-semetic.


 
Klaus
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Sun Mar 31, 2002 6:25 am

Sjc>sfo: Frankly I don't see how this changes the fact that a huge number of these Palestineans are dirty terrorist scum.

With the selective coverage most of our countries get, it´s no wonder you come to think that. Even with the selection more being oriented for "newsworthyness" than by ill will, it still gives a distorted picture.

Even if it were true: How could that be? Did the jewish settlers innocently set foot in a country that happened to be populated by murderous madmen who just waited to show "their true colors"? Subhuman man-eating killing machines, just good enough to be slaughtered by the dozen? Is that really what you think?

And if not, what would be the consequence?
 
Alpha 1
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Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Letter To American Jews

Sun Mar 31, 2002 6:30 am

With the selective coverage most of our countries get, it´s no wonder you come to think that.

Actually, Klaus, many of us feel that way because of the daily suicide bombings that are taking place with regularity in Israel, not because of some excuse like "selective coverage" as you give us.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Alpha 1

Sun Mar 31, 2002 7:00 am

Alpha 1: Actually, Klaus, many of us feel that way because of the daily suicide bombings that are taking place with regularity in Israel, not because of some excuse like "selective coverage" as you give us.

The bombings are wrong, outrageous and the responsible persons (those that survived, that is) must be punished. No dissent here.

Where we differ is that I don´t believe that this is enough to ignore the other side.

No injustice makes another injustice disappear.

If that were so, you could justify the occupation of Europe by nazi Germany with the fact that actually some of the occupated dared to resist. Or the occupation of America with the resistance by the natives.

Both would be an insult to the victims.

Israel is not nazi Germany, of course. But with respect to the occupation, Sharon seems to be headed towards a political and moral desaster that would be especially tragic for the only jewish state.
 
Guest

RE: Letter To American Jews

Sun Mar 31, 2002 7:16 pm

God that was a lot of words!

However, there is a phenomenon that we are familiar with mentioned above and that is the habit of *some* people to attack anything they see as Anti Semetic.

Even if it is an opinion or a thought they will jump upon you and scream at you with finger pointing and name calling. Makes you wonder really what they are actually upset about, your opinion or the fact that you are calling them out for what they are.

We see this phenomenon in these forums ...


VH-ADG
 
LY744
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Sun Mar 31, 2002 11:30 pm

Here are a couple other "phenomenons" encountered on ME discussions:

- Making up crazy allegations and then failing to reply to questions about them (hint, hint)

- Labeling oneself an anti-semite so he/she can whine and complain about it, taking the spotlight away from the real issues, on which he/she has no real opinions and nothing constructive to contribute

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
kolobokman
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 12:05 am

Alpha 1

I want a world free from terror and extremism!
Does that make me anti-semitst?
What if making one part of the world free of terrorism involves dismantalement of the State of Israel? Does that make me anti-semit?
I can neither confirm, nor deny above post
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 12:22 am

However, there is a phenomenon that we are familiar with mentioned above and that is the habit of *some* people to attack anything they see as Anti Semetic.

Even if it is an opinion or a thought they will jump upon you and scream at you with finger pointing and name calling. Makes you wonder really what they are actually upset about, your opinion or the fact that you are calling them out for what they are.

We see this phenomenon in these forums ...


And, however, there is a phenomenon that we are familiar with that is the habit of *some* people to attack anything they see as pro-American or pro-Israeli.

Even if it asn opinon or a thought they will jump upon you and scream at you with finger pointing and name calling. Makes you wonder really waht they are actually upstet about, your opinion or the or the fact that you are calling them for what they are.

We see this phenomenon in these forums...

Gosh, ADG, I was thinking the same thing-except in the other direction. Sucks to be accused of the very same phenomonon, doesn't it, dear?  Big thumbs up
 
FlyBoeing
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 12:38 am

Here's my response:

Yes, Israel is an imperfect democracy. Yes, some of their occupation tactics are nasty and bad. And they ought to withdraw from the Occupied Territories.

But that doesn't justify killing civilians. At least the Israelis kill people while they're rioting, or in the hunt for legitimate threats to their people. There is a different moral quality to IDF troopers who knock down buildings and knock holes in people's homes.

The Israelis could change their tactics away from the Warsaw ghetto model and remove some of their moral failures. Maybe the Israelis should read the U.S Marine Corps' Small Wars Manual.

Moral relativism is the crutch of the failed liberal. "We've done it to them and now it's coming back to us" can be used to justify and legitimize any military action because we've been killing each other for centuries. No action occurs in the theoretical vacuum that liberals believe in. No nation is innocent.

We need to believe in some small basic morality to bring peace.

What the Palestinians are doing is wrong on all counts. Killing civilians to terrorize their political process is just wrong. The Civilians aren't in any way responsible for the terror that Al-Aqsa and HAMAS hate. For all they know, the Israelis could have elected Sharon for his tax plan, or his economic development plans. Or they might not have voted for Sharon. All the Israelis aren't on the same team. They realize this about the Palestinians and that's why the Israelis' only goal is to attack terror. HAMAS and Al-Aqsa are attempting to exterminate the Israelis entirely.
 
jamesag96
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 2:32 am

Killing innocent people is wrong either way, either way. The palestinians are by no means freedom fighters when they send an 18 year old girl to blow her self up in front of a grocery store, and the Israelis in turn are by no means defenders when they straif journalists with machine gun fire and kill adults whilst trying to protect their children. Despite his Peace Prize Arafat is a moron and a tool for the Arab world to garner attention on the international scene, and Sharon is a War Hawk hell bent on eliminating the Palestinian problem. Ill will and down right hatred exists on both sides of the fence, it just so happens that most people only here one side of the story, and which one do you think that is?
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
jamesag96
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 2:34 am

Tacky I know, but what is the total dead so far for the last 17 or so months? If I remember correctly it is approx. 350 Israelis and 1100 Palestinians. If someone knows better please post....
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
Hepkat
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 2:59 am

I suppose this is the heart of the contention:

it's Isreal's fault, because they exist, isn't it

It's not that Israel doesn't have the right to exist. Everyone has the right to exist, but no one has the right to exist on other people's property. And this is precisely the issue that staunch Israeli supporters refuse to address, instead dismissing it by saying the Palestinians are terrorists.

We can not and should not condone acts of terrorism, but it would be foolish not to look at the causes of such terrorism. Brute military force has never, and will never manage to uproot deep feelings of resentment and injustice. As long as the Palestinians continue to carry a grudge for what was lost to them over the last century, there will be no shortage of 18 year olds willing to sacrifice life and limb for their cause.

Those who lend their unconditional support to Israel should try to understand that you can't take a person's land (whether in the name of religion or destiny), set up shop, and then expect that same person to meekly lie on his back with his legs up in the air to you.
 
go canada!
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 3:33 am

and hepkat your supporters must understand one thing and one thing only.

The palestinian authority doesnt want peace and is backing the suicide bombers, the arab world on the whole doesnt want peace with israel, jews bought thelands which were uninhabited on, the palestinians never have had their own state and were offered one in 1948, more than they will ever get now.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
go canada!
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 3:35 am

ps-the latest suicide attack by hamas has managed to kill non-jewish israeli arabs!

pps-what about the arabs, hepkat and hizzbollah, it wasnt their land was it?

It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
us330
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 4:00 am

"I'll tell you what I get a kick out of - exposing injustice and making people realize what horrific plight exists for Palestinians made to live under a brutal military occupation financed by American taxpayers.That the occupation is exposed by an increasing number of Israelis, Americans and Jews shows that even they realize what supporters of Palestinian rights have been saying all along...occupation and the injustices it brings is inherently violent and unacceptable."

So, why don't you expose the injustices of the Palestinian suicide bombers and the fact that Yassir Arafat says "peace" in English, but "war" in Arabic? (Newsweek's "Can Israel Survive?" edition)
 
Hepkat
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 4:13 am

Uninhabited? Now really? You very well can't have refugees if they didn't live somewhere, now can you?

Bought the lands? From whom? Shady deals in the form of absentee landlords with the Ottomans? And if such lands were legally bought, why bother creating laws forever forbidding the transfer of such lands back to their rightful non-Jewish owners? And what about American government studies which have concluded that over 30% of Israel was built on confiscated Arab property and buildings? And what about the bulldozing of Palestinian villages to make room for Israeli settlers recently arrived from Brooklyn, New York?

Of course the Palestinians never had their own state, they never needed one. They had their own system of governance and way of life that was much different from a western point of view. They were part of a larger nation, and farm land was passed on from father to son without title deeds. This is how the Zionists were able to successfully acquire these lands, as for centuries the Arabs never had use for title deeds.

So you're not gonna tell me that Israel was sitting there innocently when these mad droves of Palestinians started attacking them left right and center. Israeli supporters have to wake up to the fact that the theft of this land and property, and the continual occupation of Palestine has given rise to this conflict, and not some distortion of history or some widescale plot to eliminate all Jews from the face of the earth.

Chances are, if the U.N. had partitioned some other part of the world instead of Palestine, we'd be seeing the same conflict just with a different geography.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 4:42 am

Those who lend their unconditional support to Israel should try to understand that you can't take a person's land (whether in the name of religion or destiny), set up shop, and then expect that same person to meekly lie on his back with his legs up in the air to you.

And those who lend their unconditional support to the Palestinians should try to understand that you can't keep blowing people up in marketplaces and malls (whether in the name of religion or destiny), and not expect the nation being attacked to kick the shit out of you if you keep doing it, Hepkat. Somehow, that gets lost in the rhetoric of all those who are so critical of Israel.
 
Guest

RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 4:56 am

We can not and should not condone acts of terrorism, but it would be foolish not to look at the causes of such terrorism. Brute military force has never, and will never manage to uproot deep feelings of resentment and injustice. As long as the Palestinians continue to carry a grudge for what was lost to them over the last century, there will be no shortage of 18 year olds willing to sacrifice life and limb for their cause.

You know Hepkat, I'm not confident that these terrorist actions against pizza parlors and banquet halls are a sign of the true desperation of "resentment and injustice". As Tom Friedman in today's NYTimes, they are not suicide bombing out of desperation. There are millions of people in this world who are desperate because of "resentment and injustice" who are not strapping dymanite to their bodies.

Most importantly, Israel with the US offered Arafat the cure to his desperation and "resentment" and "injustice" and he walked away from it. Why is there no-nonviolent resistance like Israel's Peace Now? Why are all the only known peaceful resistors to Israel, Israelis?

Friedman explains the problem clearlier here: "The reason the Palestinians have not adopted these alternatives is because they actually want to win their independence in blood and fire. All they can agree on as a community is what they want to destroy, not what they want to build. Have you ever heard Mr. Arafat talk about what sort of education system or economy he would prefer, what sort of constitution he wants? No, because Mr. Arafat is not interested in the content of a Palestinian state, only the contours."

TNNH
 
Hepkat
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 4:58 am

The former clearly preceeded the latter.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 5:02 am

So, does that mean the latter is justified, Hepkat?

Twaneedsnohelp, excellent post.

Fact is, there has never been a "peace movement" in the Palestinain people. And the only Arabs that have even dared to reach out to Israel, Egypt and Jordan-especially Egypt, did so at great peril to themselves, as witnessed in the murder of Anwar Sadat.

Until the Palestinian people, the Muslim religion and the Arab nations start acting like they want peace, instead of paying lips service to the word, there will be no peace. It is up to THE ARABS, not the Jews, to stop these suicide bombers. That's a concept too few who regularly critisize Israel on here don't seem to be able to grasp.
 
tbar220
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 5:03 am

Emirateslover,

I want you do this, right now.

Get a kick out of this. Expose the injustice and make people realize what a horrific plight exists for the Israelis made to live in a brutal life of terrorism financed by the entire Arab world. Tell this board right now that the Israeli's have the right to exist in peace without the fear of being blown up on any street corner.

Tell me that you support the rights of Israelis to live a life free of suicide bombers, gunmen, and Palestinian terrorism. Tell me that Israelis have the right to live a life free from fear.

Until you say this, and mean it, I won't listen or believe any of your other points. Because in an argument, there are two sides to an argument.

You can say all you want here on this board, but until you have lived in a country where you are not safe anywhere, you don't know what its like. A life filled with terror and fear and gross injustice is not life. And the Israelis have every right to defend their right to a free life.

Now at that, I aslo say that the Palestinians have a plight, and have every right to their own country. BUT, and this is the most important, they are going about it the completely wrong way. They have no goal, none at all right now, except the killing of Israeli civilians. They are not trying to form any sort of infrastructure at all, except a terrorist infrastructure. You need evidence of this? Look at the events of the last two weeks.

The Palestinians are going about it the completely wrong way, using terrorism to try and achieve their goals. This has never and will never work against Israel, and it would never work against any other country, including the country you live in Emirateslover.

What the Palestinians desperately needed and still need now is a cease fire or a truce, and they had a glorious opportunity last week. It is the first step in reaching their goal, but it appears they will never get that first step at this rate.
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Guest

RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 5:07 am

Not a bad post.

Israel Government has gone too far.They're acting like the terrorists.

I think there's nothing to do with the Jews. They're innocent. It's the Government that caused them into trouble.
 
tbar220
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 5:11 am

Jiml1126,

Even if you agree the Israeli Government has gone too far (which I disagree with), lets do what everybody says. What drives the government to do this?

Look at the terrible terrorist atrocities against the Israelis. That has driven the Israeli government into this occupation. Before the terrorism, before the start of the intefadah, there was nothing near the level of the Israeli presence in the West Bank and Gaza that there is now.
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Hepkat
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 5:24 am

So, does that mean the latter is justified, Hepkat?

Solve the former before condemning the latter.

As Tom Friedman in today's NYTimes, they are not suicide bombing out of desperation. There are millions of people in this world who are desperate because of "resentment and injustice" who are not strapping dymanite to their bodies.

I've said time and time again that the Palestinians would have been much better served had they chosen a more democratic system. This is perhaps the single biggest reason why Israel holds the sword by the blade and the Palestinians by the handle. There're much more appropriate measures to protest injustice than resorting to terrorism. That being said, it still does not excuse the original sin of theft and occupation of Palestinian lands.

Most importantly, Israel with the US offered Arafat the cure to his desperation and "resentment" and "injustice" and he walked away from it.

I'm not sure that this "gracious offer" Barak made to Arafat was anything more than a glorified form of occupation. The Palestinians would still have been subjected to Israeli administration, and there was no solution for the refugee problem. How could anyone have expected Arafat to accept such a proposal? It was basically the least convenient offer Israel could come up with, which would have still maintained their hold on Palestinian lands.
 
tbar220
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 5:27 am

Hepkat, it may have been the least convenient offer, but the fact remains it was the best deal the Palestinians got and probably will ever get. And you have to start somewhere, and that was the first step.
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Hepkat
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 5:40 am

Oops, made a mistake. I meant to say:

I've said time and time again that the Palestinians would have been much better served had they chosen a more democratic system. This is perhaps the single biggest reason why Israel holds the sword by the handle and the Palestinians by the blade.
 
tbar220
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 5:44 am

Hehehe, I was kind of curious about that when I read it, its not the opinion that you usually state in your posts
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Hepkat
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 5:48 am

Hepkat, it may have been the least convenient offer, but the fact remains it was the best deal the Palestinians got and probably will ever get. And you have to start somewhere, and that was the first step.

As well intentioned as this offer may have been, can you explain to me why anyone, who stood helplessly while their land and livelihoods were taken away, should now accept a half-assed agreement, which still deprives them of independence and freedom of movement while not addressing the problem of the scores of destitute and homeless refugees?

Israel clearly just wanted to have their cake and eat it too by offering the least convenient offer possible while refusing to accept displaced refugees. Don't feign indignance at the Palestinian's refusal to accept.
 
kolobokman
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 9:11 am

I can neither confirm, nor deny above post
 
 
tbar220
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 9:56 am

I would post more, but the pictures on yahoo.com of the terrorist attacks on the buses, supermarkets, and restaurants have been flooded out by Israeli's retaliatory attacks.
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Mark2102
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RE: Letter To American Jews

Mon Apr 01, 2002 10:19 am

Look at the way Israel fights and how Palestine fights. Israel does not just go into a heavily populated Palestinian area and just blow themselves up for no reason at all. When Israel fights, they are doing it in retaliation for all the suicide bombings. A good example would be the Passover massacre. Israel actually was heading towards peace and pulling their tanks out and the terrorists still blow themselves up killing Israelies. Israel responded by getting to the cause of all this and not killing innocent people. I just don't understand this whole thing!

Mark

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