777236ER
Topic Author
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Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 7:09 am

Ok, I really don't want to do this, cos I'm fairly certain how this is going to turn out. There's going to be a big fight here, probably with posts and users being deleted, but at least TRY to be civil, ok?!

Right. Hundreds and hundreds of innocent civilians are suffering, and being killed in the West Bank as we speak. News crews, international observers, foreigners in the region and nearly EVERYONE in the region (apart from the Israeli army) says so. I tend to believe them (unless this is a Murdoch plot to sell more papers).

Israel is disobeying every other country in the world, including the US -- always a friend of Israel. The EU is threatening sanctions, friends of Israel are demanding they pull out of Palestinian territories.

But is the action nessecary? People will say "but we NEED to do something!! How do we stop the suicide bombers?!". I don't know. But obviously this is NOT the way!! Today (the bus bomb) shows just how the suicide bombings will and are continuing. The Israeli offencive was meant to stop this. It's not.

Yet if the Israeli offensive continues, the hate in the hearts of every Palestinian is going to grow to a point where every Palestianian man, woman and child is going to be straping explosive on themselves, trying to kill as many Israelis as possible. This WILL happen if Israel continues this offencive. If Israel continues this, then only the complete distruction of Israel will solve this problem.

So, what now? Is Israel going to bow to international pressure? Is the situation going to escalate?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
kolobokman
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 7:26 am

Palestinians will not stop! Israel here, is the side that must review its actions.
They should be specificly told what to do by the UN(never thought i would say that about UN).
Withdraw, give up some land, leave Palestinians alone.

Then the Palestinian state should be created. And the UN must help them clean up their country from Hizbola/Hamas etc.

And we will live hapily ever after!
I can neither confirm, nor deny above post
 
LY744
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 7:35 am

"Withdraw, give up some land, leave Palestinians alone."

Been there, done that... This is what they get in return.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
ryanb741
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 7:40 am

Okay, rephrase that:

'Withdraw, give up PALESTINIAN land, leave the Palestinians alone'


Why doesn't Israel just try this? What does it have to lose? It's not as if the situation could be any worse.

If Israel does this and then the terrorism continues, then Israel will have the moral upper hand and then I'm sure an international coalition will go in and remove Hamas etc. Unfortunately, the whole 'war against terrorists' stuff Sharon is sprouting seems just a bit hypocritical.

I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Greg
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 7:43 am

Ugggghhhh!
Who cares anymore!
US Sympathy for Israel is very rapidly going downhill...
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 8:02 am

People are trying to help, but these people never listen. So let them kill themselves.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Yazoo
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 8:14 am

another israel/palestine thread ?!? Come ON !
Purple Pride!
 
voodoo
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 8:15 am

Nope.
Sharon's `Operation Create-more-terrorists-so-that-our next-self-justified-step-is-to-put-all-Palestinains-and-Israeli-Arabs-on-trucks-to-Jordan' must continue....
Or
`We took every hilltop, and this is what they give us'.
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 11:07 am

As usual, 777236ER, you didn't even mention the almost-daily suicide bombings that are taking place. So much for sensible. Just another fanning of the flames, huh? Under the rules, you are right, you should be deleted.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 11:13 am

Why doesn't Israel just try this? What does it have to lose? It's not as if the situation could be any worse.

Israel has done this, Ryan. Remember, the PA had authority over most disupited lands after Oslo. The terror didn't stop, did it?

If Israel does this and then the terrorism continues, then Israel will have the moral upper hand and then I'm sure an international coalition will go in and remove Hamas etc.

Ther terror WILL NEVER STOP, as long as groups like Hamas and Hezbollah-who's openly proclaimed goal is to destroy Israel. Why is that so hard for some here to grasp?

Unfortunately, the whole 'war against terrorists' stuff Sharon is sprouting seems just a bit hypocritical.

Well, if you're definition of "hypocritical" is trying to root out terrorists in the midst of almost-daily suicide bombings that are killing civilians, then more power to you. But I'd hate to see what you think "sensible" is.

 
prosa
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 12:43 pm

What the Israelis can't or won't realize is that the Palestinians have an almost infinite capacity to withstand suffering. Certainly a much higher capacity than the Israelis. In this sense, the Israelis are like the U.S. military in Afghanistan; combat deaths are kept to an absolute minimum even when doing so limits progress (e.g. the Tora Bora operation at the end of 2001, when Afghan allies were used as American proxies in ground combat to avoid American deaths, allowing many Taliban and al Qaeda fighters to escape into Pakistan). The Palestinians, in contrast, are like the U.S. military in World War II, willing to absorb very heavy casualties when the objectives are sufficiently important.
All of this means that the Israelis eventually will reach a point at which they just cannot accept any more soldiers coming home in coffins. The Palestinians, however, will never reach such a point. We can only hope that the Israelis will realize that they're in a no-win situation and will stop seeing military action as the answer to everything.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
RoyalDutch
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 2:01 pm

Today (the bus bomb) shows just how the suicide bombings will and are continuing. The Israeli offencive was meant to stop this. It's not.


May I remind you that prior to the offensive, the suicide bombings were happening almost every DAY? This is the first one in nearly a week.

- RoyalDutch


 
Guest

RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 4:51 pm

We can only hope that the Israelis will realize that they're in a no-win situation and will stop seeing military action as the answer to everything.

Interesting points PROSA, and I like the way you presented them. However, I disagree. The Palestinians have a tremendous tolerance of suffering. They have been for a hundred years and are still out kicking. However, I think thet in the end they, not the Israelis will see the no-win situation. Here's why. Unlike the Israelis, the Palestinians have gained nothing from violence. Absolutely nothing. Whereas the Israelis gained vasy territories, strategic lands, American strategic co-operations, a world-class army, international presitge and fear, the Palestinians have received nothing from violence.

For them, its really one step forward, two steps back. They launch the intifadah, and they lose Jerusalem. They blow up a disco and they lose effective PA governing. They blow up more busses and cafes and they've basically lost any freedom or dignity. It has achieved nothing. Right now, Jerusalem is a pipe dream.

Israel on the other hand, has hurt a little but has gained a lot. They still receive billions in aide, they have Arafat sleeping in a closet, and while they've lost a few hundred in the current conflict, their stern hold over the territories remains effectively unchallenged. They haven't lost much, but gained a ton of sympathy and the ability to shut down the Palestinian governance, society, and economy.

So, I think the Palestinians will change soon (real soon actually). I think we're going to see a PA iniated ceasefire, and I think attacks against Israel will end for the most part. After awhile, the negotiations will begin again.

TNNH
 
Guest

RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 5:49 pm

Whereas the Israelis gained vasy territories, strategic lands, American strategic co-operations, a world-class army, international presitge and fear, the Palestinians have received nothing from violence.

and you think this is something to boast about?

Seems to me that you've explained *why* the Palestinians have a problem with Isreal and *why* it is strategically advantageous to Isreal for the violence to continue.



VH-ADG
 
Guest

RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 7:36 pm

I've already posted this as a fresh thread, but I think it links in well with this one as well.

From today's Daily Telegraph:

The world must say what's fair for Israelis and Palestinians
By Anton La Guardia
(Filed: 11/04/2002)


THE faces of the dead are everywhere: pictures of Palestinian martyrs peeling off the walls of Palestinian cities, portraits of dead soldiers on Israeli television, newspaper photographs of ordinary Israelis wiped out in suicide attacks and valedictory video messages of the bombers themselves. The Holy Land has long been a place of violence, but rarely has blood been spilt so casually.

Too long a sacrifice, wrote W B Yeats, makes a stone of the heart. Liberal Israelis have turned into advocates of total war against the Palestinians; moderate Palestinians cheer the suicide bombers. Israelis see this as their own war on terrorism. Palestinians regard it as their belated war of independence. It is also a war between Ariel Sharon and Yasser Arafat in which each wants to destroy the other, politically if not physically.

The question for world leaders is how to stop the fighting and bring stability to the Middle East. Colin Powell, the US Secretary of State, arrives in Jerusalem tonight to seek a ceasefire as the Bush administration accepts that Israel's incursions into Palestinian cities are not simply the equivalent of America's war against the Taliban.

Here in Jerusalem, the issue is not just terrorism, but the complex century-old conflict between Zionism and Arab nationalism. In Afghanistan, there are no colonies of American settlers living on the edges of Kabul and Jalalabad declaring the land to be theirs. There are no US claims to own the cloak of Mohammed in Kandahar. There will be no cheering on the streets of Ramallah should Israeli troops kill Yasser Arafat.

In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, security questions - terrorism and ceasefires - have to be pursued in parallel with resolving political problems - the military occupation of Palestinians and statehood. Israel will say that making political concessions to Palestinians at this time would amount to rewarding terrorism. The Palestinians say that to declare a ceasefire without assurances of independence would amount to a betrayal of its "martyrs".

The time has come for the world to declare what would constitute a fair agreement between Israel and the Palestinians. This is not a matter of imposing a settlement. It would be a means of salvaging something from the collapse of years of peace negotiations.

A fatal weakness of the Oslo accords was that they never stated the ultimate goal. The step-by-step process, leaving the hardest issues to last, was designed to create trust but instead built resentment. In contrast, the Camp David accords between Israel and Egypt in 1978 stated from the outset that Israel would withdraw completely from Sinai, and left the modalities of the retreat for later negotiations.

The word "Palestinian" does not appear anywhere in UN Security Council Resolution 242, the central pillar of all Middle East peace-making. The Palestinians are only a ghostly presence in a secondary passage calling for a "just settlement of the refugee problem", sandwiched between demands for freedom of navigation and exhortations for security measures such as buffer zones. It was only last month that the Security Council got around to "affirming a vision of a region where two states, Israel and Palestine, live side by side within secure and recognised borders".

This coyness is risible. There is no secret about what a two-state solution will look like: a Palestinian state on most of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, border adjustments and territorial exchanges, a shared arrangement for Jerusalem and its holy sites, the return of Palestinian refugees to the Palestinian state rather than to Israel, security guarantees for Israel and Arab recognition that it is a legitimate part of the Middle East, and a Palestinian promise to give up all further claims.

This is what most governments in the world believe is right, it is the basic demand of the Palestinian leadership and moderate Arab countries and is acceptable to a substantial number of Israelis - if calm is restored. Even Mr Sharon now accepts the principle of a Palestinian state.

What is sorely missing is trust. Israelis fear that the Palestinians will not settle for a two-state solution, but will use it as a springboard for more demands and resume terrorist attacks. Palestinians suspect that they will be cheated, and that once they halt the uprising, Israel will refuse to allow the establishment of a viable state.

This is where a new UN resolution could help. Stating clearly the parameters of peace would serve as a political barrier against the excesses of each side. Israel has long regarded international conferences as a means on exerting pressure on the Jewish state. Now the outside world could equally be used to exert pressure on a recalcitrant Yasser Arafat, who has long demanded "international legitimacy". It would be in Israel's interest for the united voice of the world - the West and Arab countries in particular - to declare, for instance, that Palestinian refugees will not return to Israel.

Before opening talks, however, Palestinians will have to halt terrorism and anti-Israeli incitement, while Israel will have to stop its offensive and freeze Jewish settlements. Others have important roles to play. Arab states can act as guarantors of Palestinian behaviour, international observers can add a further sense of security and, eventually, Nato could offer to extend its security umbrella to the eastern Mediterranean.

Simply passing a new resolution will not, of itself, end the bloodshed. It took the Palestinians more than 20 years to accept Resolution 242. It may take the departure of both Mr Sharon and Mr Arafat before the two sides can attempt to make peace again. Nevertheless, clear international guidelines for peace would give moderates on both sides - largely discredited during the 18 months of conflict - a base to rebuild their case for compromise. A clear sense of what awaits Israel and the Palestinians if and when the war ends may provide an incentive to end the killing.

Resolving the Palestinian question is not a concession to terrorism, but a victory against it. It would deny extremists such as Osama bin Laden the single most inflammatory rallying cry in the Islamic world.

Anton La Guardia is the author of Holy Land, Unholy War: Israelis and Palestinians
 
Guest

RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 9:57 pm

This coyness is risible. There is no secret about what a two-state solution will look like: a Palestinian state on most of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, border adjustments and territorial exchanges, a shared arrangement for Jerusalem and its holy sites, the return of Palestinian refugees to the Palestinian state rather than to Israel, security guarantees for Israel and Arab recognition that it is a legitimate part of the Middle East, and a Palestinian promise to give up all further claims.



..."risible"...this analysis is risible... :

The "two-state solution" as exposed here is EXACTLY the offer Barak made in Camp David and Taba in 2000!!

 
petertenthije
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 10:21 pm

From what I understood (and I may be wrong), Barak offered this, but without the return of Palestinian refugees! The Palestinian refugees were not allowed to return and thus had to stay in the refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon etc.

What good is a country when most of your citizens are not allowed to live there?
Attamottamotta!
 
prosa
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 10:30 pm

US Sympathy for Israel is very rapidly going downhill...

I would gladly sell my soul if that could be true, but so far I really haven't seen any evidence. Maybe things will change, and Americans will stop believing in Brave Little Israel, Right or Wrong.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
Guest

RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 10:44 pm

Petertenthije,
take the time to read the above article once more, more carefully...and you'll see that it speaks of the "right of return" to the Palestinian State rather than to Israel...


BTW, if they so much want a State of their own and hate the State of Israel, WHY would all these people so strongly want to live in this Jewish State...?

(Well, the answer is easy : this so-called right of return is just another disguised way of promoting the end of Israel...)
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 11:04 pm

77236ER, I say this topic is not sensible for one simple reason; you're putting ALL the onus, ALL the responsibility, and ALL the wight on Israel to do end this conflict. But all tthe onus, responsibility and wight IS NOT on Israel. The Palestinians and Arabs MUST share some of the burden here, or there will never be peace.

Let's look at some points on this conflict, from what I think is your perspective.

1. Israel needs to withdraw from the Occupied Territories.

Ok, fair enough. I have no argument with that. Yet should they have to under the wieght of almost daily suicide attacks, which are most likely eminating from WITHIN the Occupied areas? Israel does have a right to national security, as does any nation, so would the Israeli government be responsible-TO ITS CITIZENS, if they simply withdrawl when the certainty of attacks will still be there?

2. Israel should curtail, if not completely stop, any military attacks against Palestinians.

If there were no attacks against Israeli citizens, I would agree with you 100 percent. Yet I sense a double-standard. If virtually any other nation on the planet was being besieged by these suicide attacks, we would probably descend like a pack of dogs on any nation that DIDN'T TRY TO DEFEND IT'S CITIZENS, as Israel is trying to do. It's all well and fine, and in the best spirit of peace, to demand Israel stop military attacks, but when there are daily attacks upon Israeli citizens, it isn't very pragmatic, is it?

3. Israel needs to get rid of Sharon.

I have absolutely no argument with that. Sharon was a warrior, much like Menacham Begin was, yet unlike Begin, Sharon seems incapable of living in a world where Arab and Jews can live in Peace. Begin had that vision, and he forged a peace with Egypt. Sharon isn't capable of that, and he needs to be replaced as Israeli Prime Minister, or there'll never be peace. Yet such a change won't take place under the current conditions.


Now, let's look at the Arab/Palestinian side. What do THEY need to do to foster a better climate?

1. Yassir Arafat needs to go. Whatever usefullness he once had towards building a peace, has been shot to hell. He had a chance to see the formation of a Palestinian state a few years back, and, under pressure from hard-liners on his side, he tossed it out the window. Despite his protestations to the contrary, he did not do enough to stop the attacks on Israel, that were coming from areas his Authority controlled. It's time, like in the case of Sharon, to find someone with a greater vision for peace.

2. The Arab League must come out publically and condemn the suicide attacks against Israel as immoral and hurtful to the Palestinian cause.

It's disingenuous of the Arabs, during the last Arab League Summit, to cry about Israeli "crimes" and Israeli "aggression", when on the day the Saudi's proposed a peace plan, 20 Jews were blown up by a nut, and no mention was made of it at the summit. The moral outrage they showed kind of rang hollow that day, when 20 Jews died. That simply can't go on. The violence will NEVER cease against Israel UNTIL the Arabs take a stand against the violence on BOTH sides. Then the Arabs must use their resources, as Arabs and Muslims, to put pressure to dismantle groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.

3. Jeruselem needs to be declared an "Open City" in which neither Israel or a future Palestine has authority over it.

That simply has to be the case. Both sides claim it. But both sides can't have it, and you'll never have a peace if one side is awarded it at the expense of the other. Make it an Open City-a Holy City, where the 3 great Faiths Of The Book reside. Maybe a little utopian on my part? Perhaps, but how else can this one sticking point ever be solved.

Now, THAT, I think is a bit more sensible. Israel does have to change it's attitudes, no doubt, but so do the Palestinians. If some of the steps I've mentioned aren't taken, you'll never see a peace.

I welcome your comments.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 11:17 pm

Once Arafat and Sharon are gone, then we can hope for peace. Arafat encourages suicide bombers and sharon is a thug that is out of control.

Once they are both gone and replaced by sensible leaders who want peace not revenge, then there might be some light at the end of the tunnel.

Rdgs
Arsenal@LHR
In Arsene we trust!!
 
ryanb741
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 11:34 pm

Alpha_1

Wow, I didn't think I would say this but:


I agree with you.  Smile
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Arsenal@LHR
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Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Thu Apr 11, 2002 11:37 pm

Well at least this thread hasn't turned onto a war zone, so let's keep having a sensible and healthy discussion  Big thumbs up

Arsenal@LHR
In Arsene we trust!!
 
777236ER
Topic Author
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Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Fri Apr 12, 2002 12:50 am

Alpha 1: I neglected to mention what Palestine should do to stop this because quite frankly they won't. I was only pointing out that the current Israeli strategy isn't working. You agree with that?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Guest

RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Fri Apr 12, 2002 12:54 am

The previous Israeli strategy (ie giving territories, statehood and weapons to the Palestinians) didn't work neither...
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Fri Apr 12, 2002 1:00 am

So what the heck is gonna work then?
In Arsene we trust!!
 
prosa
Posts: 5389
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:24 am

RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Fri Apr 12, 2002 1:15 am

We can only hope that the Israelis will realize that they're in a no-win situation and will stop seeing military action as the answer to everything.
Interesting points PROSA, and I like the way you presented them. However, I disagree. The Palestinians have a tremendous tolerance of suffering. They have been for a hundred years and are still out kicking. However, I think thet in the end they, not the Israelis will see the no-win situation. Here's why. Unlike the Israelis, the Palestinians have gained nothing from violence. Absolutely nothing. Whereas the Israelis gained vasy territories, strategic lands, American strategic co-operations, a world-class army, international presitge and fear, the Palestinians have received nothing from violence.

I would query whether Israel's "gains" have helped it at all. Whatever strategic benefits Israel has gained from its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza are vastly outweighed by the troubles it has taken on. Both of those areas are white elephants par excellence. Yes, the West Bank gives Israel a vital buffer zone in case of attack by Jordan or another Arab nation, but the probabilty of any such attack is basically zero. The West Bank (and Gaza) is of little help whatsoever in terms of stopping terrorist attacks, which are Israel's real threat today. Similarly, Israel's military doesn't help much when it comes to stopping suicide bombers. And Israel's occupation of these territories paves the way for Jewish settlements, which are a major destabilizing force. I am convinced that Israel would be far better off if it had never occupied the West Bank and Gaza.
Regarding Israel's international prestige, that's basically limited to the United States, where Israel is held in very high esteem due to active lobbying, residual Holocaust guilt, and fundamentalist Christian ideology. Its status in the rest of the world is about on the level with apartheid-era South Africa at best. In short, all the Mideast violence has not helped Israel at all.

"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
Matt D
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Fri Apr 12, 2002 1:39 am

I think all of this is bogus.

This has nothing to do with land or occupation or anything like that. There is a much deeper issue going on here.

The truth of the matter that no one will say is that the Muslims the hard core ones that is will not stop until the Jews have been exterminated-or at least driven out of the Middle East.

There are many Middle Eastern Factions that long to finish "the work that Hitler started".

That is the real issue. The Palestinians are only using the land as a pretext, because no matter how much they give, the Palestinians will want more until Israel will effectively cease to exist.

I don't blame Israel for standing its ground. They aren't stupid. Why trade permanent land for temporary peace? they know what's really going on.

Much as I hate to say this, religion is the root cause of all of this.

And I'll tell you what, the morning that Saddam Hussein gets presented a nuke, it will be detonated over Israel that afternoon.

This is the dream of so many Arabs, which is why as heinous as Hussein is, why most, if not all Arab countries will still stand behind him.
 
prosa
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Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:24 am

RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Fri Apr 12, 2002 2:23 am

This has nothing to do with land or occupation or anything like that. There is a much deeper issue going on here.
The truth of the matter that no one will say is that the Muslims the hard core ones that is will not stop until the Jews have been exterminated-or at least driven out of the Middle East ... Much as I hate to say this, religion is the root cause of all of this.


Yet the Palestinians have long been among the most secularized of all the Muslims in the Middle East. Yassir Arafat married a Christian woman, something that would be unthinkable for a fundamentalist Muslim, and it scarcely raised any eyebrows among the Palestinians. And even the more radical groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah come well short of Taliban-style fundamentalism.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict started as a nationalist conflict rather than a religious conflict and still can be largely characterized as such. There are, however, some signs that Islamic fundamentalism is taking root among the Palestinians as Israel's crackdown becomes more and more harsh. Should Israel manage to convert a nationalist struggle into a religious war, it will go down as one of history's most dubious achievements.

"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
Hepkat
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Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Fri Apr 12, 2002 4:40 am

I agree with you Prosa. I don't believe that the Arabs harbor this inherent hatred for the Jews as Matt D claims. Proof? Before the founding of Israel, Arabs, Jews and Christians lived in peace in the area. There was never a squabble, and if the Arabs hated the Jews back then, well, they certainly did a very good job of hiding it. There was no terrorism, Jews never had to walk in fear, and everyone practiced their religion in peace.

This has been discussed to death, but the fury of the Arabs really got aroused with the Zionist movement, which claimed the area known as Palestine as the promised land of the Jews. The shameful treatment of Jews in Europe forced many to start migrating to "Palestine", but even then, say, until 1917 or so, there was still relative peace. Things really went into high gear during the world wars, especially the second, when Jews faced unprecedented persecution in Europe. They had no choice but to flee Europe, one favorite destination being either the U.S. or the Mid East, where the Zionist, embolded by their recent swell in numbers (from European Jews) started to actively demand their own State. This pissed off the Arabs even more. The rest is history.

So you see Matt, you simply can't say that the Arabs have a religious or inherent hatred for the Jews. All of the Mid East troubles started at the beginning of the last century.

As to solutions, it's quite clear Israel has no plans of going anywhere, much to the Arabs' despair who see no justification for its creation in their backyard to begin with. It would be hypocritical to say Arab leaders don't support suicide bombers, as they've been most reluctant to condemn them. It's also hypocritical to say Sharon wants anything more than the total obliteration of Arafat and his Palestinians, as he already regrets no killing him 20 years earlier. I'm afraid only outside intervention will solve this problem. We have to restrain Sharon in his military endeavers, as the IDF is vastly superior to whatever defense the Palestinians have, and I'm not sure Sharon doesn't have megamaniac ambitions. Similarly, the Palestinians need a strong leader, one with more credibility than Arafat whom the West feels it can trust. Jerusalem needs to be neutral territory. Israel needs to STOP and dismantle settlement activity, enough is enough! If after a pull-out suicide bombers continue to terrorize Israel, then a physical separation between the two territories is in order.
 
Guest

RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Fri Apr 12, 2002 11:04 am

Before the founding of Israel, Arabs, Jews and Christians lived in peace in the area. There was never a squabble, and if the Arabs hated the Jews back then, well, they certainly did a very good job of hiding it. There was no terrorism, Jews never had to walk in fear, and everyone practiced their religion in peace.

You told me in another post that you "lost respect" for me, because you disagreed with my argument, well Hepkat, I have just lost respect for you because simply, you just stated a terrible untruth. What you just wrote is blantly false. There was terrible amounts of of anti-semetic violence in Palestine well before Israel was created. Your blind view of history that "everything was alright" is disturbing and inacurate. They didn't do a good job of hiding it, you did a poor job of finding it.

I'll give you a little while to reread your history before replying more.

TNNH
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Fri Apr 12, 2002 9:56 pm

And I quote:

"Before the 20th century, most Jews in Palestine belonged to old Yishuv, or community, that had settled more for religious than for political reasons. There was little if any conflict between them and the Arab population. Tensions began after the first Zionist settlers arrived in the 1880's...when [they] purchased land from absentee Arab owners, leading to dispossession of the peasants who had cultivated it."
Don Peretz, "The Arab-Israeli Dispute."

"During the Middle Ages, North Africa and the Arab Middle East became places of refuge and a haven for the persecuted Jews of Spain and elsewhere...In the Holy Land...they lived together in relative harmony, a harmony only disrupted when the Zionists began to claim that Palestine was the 'rightful' possession of the 'Jewish people' to the exclusion of its Moslem and Christian inhabitants."
Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

 
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Sat Apr 13, 2002 1:42 am

hepkat,

you read the book i recommended?

i have to say thought hat there is an arguement for stating that three religiions lived in harmony however this can be shot to pieces by studying the crusades in which the christain world wentto war with the muslims.

i dont call that harmony.

the settlers in israel mainly settled on desert land and purchased some, not all of the lands.

now then the cruix of the matter,

the palestinians where offered a larger independent state than the israeli jews,israel was at one stage 9 miles long, the palestinians said no, now if they were so friendly towards the jews dont you think they would have agreed to this instead of starting a conflcit with the arabs that they can never ever win.

they wont ever get a chance for such a large state as they once did.

the other point is that for many muslims jews are plain eveil, theylook to the koran and they see an interpretation that states all other religions must die.I know that the majority of muslims are peaceful and wouldnt dream of wanting to start another shoah, in fact worse however a small faction remain.

and its this faction that controls the terrorist groups that control arafat and you can give the palestinians as much land as they want and as much money as they want, you can make them the regional superpower and make their cities out of gold but you wont stop the terrorists hating every jew in site and you wont stop people like bin laden

nothing will unless you stop them through the use of military force.
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Sat Apr 13, 2002 1:44 am

but i respect your agruements far more hepkat than i do of those who wouldnt know history if it went up and bit them and wouldnt know how to be civil if their life depended on it.
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Hepkat
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Sat Apr 13, 2002 2:04 am

however this can be shot to pieces by studying the crusades in which the christain world wentto war with the muslims

Go Canada, when did the Crusades occur? I stated in my previous post, that as of about 1850 (when the trickle of Jewish immigration to Palestine started to grow) until the beginning of the last century, Jews, Christians and Arabs lived in peace. I was not referring to several centuries ago.

the palestinians where offered a larger independent state than the israeli jews,israel was at one stage 9 miles long, the palestinians said no, now if they were so friendly towards the jews dont you think they would have agreed to this instead of starting a conflcit with the arabs that they can never ever win.

Please read this very carefully, for I'm growing rather tired of having to repeat it time and time again. The Arabs started to gain animosity towards the Jews AFTER the Zionists started agitating for their own state in Palestine, plain and simple. THIS IS THE CAUSE OF THE ARAB HATRED TOWARDS ISRAEL. If the Zionists had decided to take over some other piece of land, say in Africa, I don't think we'd be seeing the same mid-east conflict we're seeing today. Please try to understand this fact. No one gets up one morning and suddenly decides to hate you for no reason. The Jews started immigrating to Palestine in greater numbers since about 1850. At the beginning of the 20th century, their numbers had sufficiently increased, and weary after decades of persecution in Europe, which culminated in a grand showpiece as the Holocaust, they started demanding their own state. The Arabs were understandbly upset at this huge influx of immigrants to their territory (Israelis are worried about a huge influx of Palestinian refugees for the same reason), as they feared the huge number of Jews would destroy their native culture.

the other point is that for many muslims jews are plain eveil, theylook to the koran and they see an interpretation that states all other religions must die.I know that the majority of muslims are peaceful and wouldnt dream of wanting to start another shoah, in fact worse however a small faction remain

Please see my above explanation. It is human tendency to harbor intense hatred and animosity towards your oppressor.
 
777236ER
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Sat Apr 13, 2002 2:07 am

To go back to the original topic, 6 more Israelies were killed today by a suicide bomber. It's all over the news.

but so are the reports of hundreds of palestinians massacred and bulldosered into mass graves.

Both as bad as each other?
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Sat Apr 13, 2002 2:13 am

hepkat, thanks for replying again.

you cannot deny that israel was founded on a small strip of land and a lot of land was desert, i find it hard to accept that every palestinian hates israel because it settled partly on a desert. the palestinians simply didnt accept any jewish state, even though a jewish state was needed was only going to be very small and was started in the historic homeland of the jews.

it was the best place for the jews and already had settlement, now i understand that the palestinians are rightly annoyed that they dont have their own state but its their own fault because they didnt accept the planin the 1st place, israel would never have been so strong if it werent for the arabs attacking it.

the fact is hepkat that the arab world isnt being oppressed by the jews, the arabs are oppressing themselves, arafats betrayed his own people his consigned them to misery and death.

the wider arab world has sections that hate jews due to the koran, now i didnt say all arabs, i said a few, please try and understand this.

you stated hepkat that there was never a squabble between jews, muslims and christains, i simply had to correct that incorrect historial inaccuracy.
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LY744
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Sat Apr 13, 2002 5:11 am

"hundreds of palestinians massacred and bulldosered into mass graves."

Wow, no wonder they refuse to properly bury their dead like the IDF suggests, and choose to put them in mass graves. Now everyone is going to suggest that Israelis are massacring Palestinians...

The false pregnant chick with a bomb on her belly was a pretty good idea too. I bet they wanted her to get caught. Now the Israelis will have to start subjecting pregnant Palestinian women to humiliating security checks, causing more hate towards Israel, and more outraged "unbiased obervers".

LY744.
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EmiratesLover
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Mon Apr 15, 2002 9:40 pm

``you cannot deny that israel was founded on a small strip of land and a lot of land was desert, i find it hard to accept that every palestinian hates israel because it settled partly on a desert. the palestinians simply didnt accept any jewish state, even though a jewish state was needed was only going to be very small and was started in the historic homeland of the jews. ''

The ``small strip of land'' that you refer to, at the time of the UN partition resolution was home to something like just under a million Palestinians.It is ludicrous to expect people to simply pick up and leave their homes simply because the territory that someone lives in which is coveted by someone else happens to be small.

Look at this another way, if the Asians in Britian demanded a state for Asians only in 1% of Britain where they could be favoured over the native British, would you gladly leave the place where you are living simply because they were demanding ``only'' 1 % of your country?


``it was the best place for the jews and already had settlement, now i understand that the palestinians are rightly annoyed that they dont have their own state but its their own fault because they didnt accept the planin the 1st place, israel would never have been so strong if it werent for the arabs attacking it.''


See above....and oh yeas, the Arabs only started one war against the Israelis....the Yom Kippur to end Israeli occupation of the territories...the others were all started by Israel.Since you think it is rational for a country and it's people to be partitioned against it's will, I am sure you would jump for joy at the idea of the UN voting to split Britain into separate states for the natives and immigrants.

``you stated hepkat that there was never a squabble between jews, muslims and christains, i simply had to correct that incorrect historial inaccuracy.''

Hepkat is right.There never was, and hopefully never will be such a squabble.You only have to look at the increasing numbers of Jews, Muslims and Christians uniting to oppose the barbarity of Sharon to realize that.

``the fact is hepkat that the arab world isnt being oppressed by the jews, the arabs are oppressing themselves, arafats betrayed his own people his consigned them to misery and death. ''


This is really stupid.Are the Israelis Arabs ? Most are not.The armies committing unspeakable atrocities against Palestinians are Israeli, with their machines of death and destruction provided generously by America.Unless America and Israel are Arab, I dont see how you statement can be regarded as anything but preposterous.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Mon Apr 15, 2002 10:03 pm

The armies committing unspeakable atrocities against Palestinians are Israeli...

And, as usual, EmriatesLover, you don't even mention the unspeakable atrocities against Israelis by the Palestinians. Oh, that's right-they aren't atrocities, are they, in your mind, right? How pathetic.
 
LY744
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Tue Apr 16, 2002 4:52 am

"the Arabs only started one war against the Israelis....the Yom Kippur to end Israeli occupation of the territories"

Check your math, they also "started" the 1948 war. To end Israeli occupation of the territories, eh? How come Jordan didn't participate then?

"You only have to look at the increasing numbers of Jews, Muslims and Christians uniting to oppose the barbarity of Sharon to realize that"

Are your arguments so horribly weak that you (and others) have to concentrate on bashing a single person?

"This is really stupid"

So is poor grammar, but who am I to judge?

"The armies committing unspeakable atrocities"

Don't speak of them then.

"with their machines of death and destruction provided generously by America"

I'm getting very tired of this, don't talk of something you know nothing about, OK buddy?

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Tue Apr 16, 2002 5:40 am

errm, emirates, hepkat admitted he was wrong and that there were squablles during the past

"you stated hepkat that there was never a squabble between jews, muslims and christains, i simply had to correct that incorrect historial inaccuracy.''

Hepkat is right.There never was, and hopefully never will be such a squabble.You only have to look at the increasing numbers of Jews, Muslims and Christians uniting to oppose the barbarity of Sharon to realize that. "

Emirates lover, clearly you no nothing about history otherwise you would know about the crusades, the butchering of muslims and christains by their foes (including each other)and the butchering of the jews culminating in the final soltuion, a holocaust the catholic church did nothing to stop so dont dare tell me there has never been an conflict over religion, religion starts wars, it doesnt end them.

Emirates, really please read for once:

"``the fact is hepkat that the arab world isnt being oppressed by the jews, the arabs are oppressing themselves, arafats betrayed his own people his consigned them to misery and death. ''


This is really stupid.Are the Israelis Arabs ? Most are not.The armies committing unspeakable atrocities against Palestinians are Israeli, with their machines of death and destruction provided generously by America.Unless America and Israel are Arab, I dont see how you statement can be regarded as anything but preposterous. "

I stated that the arabs are oppressing themsleves, arafat is betraying his own people, thats in the worlds of the usa who know a damm far more about this than you do, hes consigned his own people to misery and death, i would call that an oppresion since your so happy to call the israelis oppresors for killing palestinian terrorists then its fait to state that by that token you have to accpet that arafat is oppresing his own peopleby consigning them to their fate.

So please try for once to understand something.

Emirates lover, the immigrants to britain accepted that they would be part of britain, the palestinians wouldnt recognise israel and wouldnt accept their own state, i call that a pretty dumb move by them dont want their own country but dont want to be in someone elses, what did they want a seperate planet?

the fact is as well immigrants to britain dont have a historic right to live on the land both the palestinians and the israelis have a right to the land they exist on, i accept that, you cant.

Clearly from your immature tone I find it highly doubtful that you are aged between 21-25 and are a student, a student of what? not reading the facts or attacking israel?
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Hepkat
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Tue Apr 16, 2002 5:56 am

errm, emirates, hepkat admitted he was wrong and that there were squablles during the past

When...where...what are you talking about?
 
EmiratesLover
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Tue Apr 16, 2002 11:22 pm

``And, as usual, EmriatesLover, you don't even mention the unspeakable atrocities against Israelis by the Palestinians. Oh, that's right-they aren't atrocities, are they, in your mind, right? How pathetic''

You just don't get it.

I deplore suicide bombings completely and have sympathy for the innocent victims.
I condemn Palestinian suicide attacks and condemn the oppression of Israel's occupation.Is that so hard for your ilk to understand?

``Check your math, they also "started" the 1948 war. To end Israeli occupation of the territories, eh? How come Jordan didn't participate then? ''

They didnt start the 48 war.Back then Israel was occupying Syrian and Egyptian territory too.

``Emirates lover, clearly you no nothing about history otherwise you would know about the crusades, the butchering of muslims and christains by their foes (including each other)and the butchering of the jews culminating in the final soltuion, a holocaust the catholic church did nothing to stop so dont dare tell me there has never been an conflict over religion, religion starts wars, it doesnt end them. ''

Phew....at least you dont blame Arabs for everything.What a relief !!!!!

``the fact is as well immigrants to britain dont have a historic right to live on the land both the palestinians and the israelis have a right to the land they exist on, i accept that, you cant''

Yes the immigrants do have a right...many have been living there legally for decades and have citizenship.Most of the Israelis came to Palestine and were treated with all the benifits of citizenship immediately while indigenous Palestinians were deprived of their basic rights, ethnically cleansed and treated like a lower form of humanity.


 
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Tue Apr 16, 2002 11:40 pm

You just don't get it.

I deplore suicide bombings completely and have sympathy for the innocent victims.
I condemn Palestinian suicide attacks and condemn the oppression of Israel's occupation.Is that so hard for your ilk to understand?


I'm glad you came out and publically stated that, EmriatesLover, I really am. Now, why not, when there's another suicide bombing against Jewish civilians, you come out and start a thread condemning it, instead of always answering a thread that condemns it by ignoring the bombing and immediately heaping scathing damnations on Israel?

and what's an ilk? Is it related to an elk? I look nothing like that.  Big grin
 
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Wed Apr 17, 2002 2:21 am

oh so emriates you now accep that the three faiths havent got on well with each other, oh at last.

Hepkat you posted a statement which inferred that ther was never an agrument between jew, christain and muslim until the zionists moving into israel, youthen backed this up with a quote, i stated that this is inocccret as you have to remember the crusades and you then stated oh but i was talking about the current climate.

emriates lover you havent answered the question, do you think its a stupid move to reject an independent palestinian state?

and why infer that i blame the arabs, its their fault for this messs because they never listern, the bomb israeli civilains, they attacks israel and they dont accept any peace offer and dont offer to negioate. do you agree in the words of president bush that arafat has betrayed his own people?

and next, emirates lover israel was attacked by all sides in 1948, vene your pro-arab friends accept that israel only started one war, why cant you accept this?

and for the 1948 war, from encarta 97:"The new state had no agreed frontiers, but quickly received wide international recognition. However, on May 15 the armies of Egypt, Transjordan (now Jordan), Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq joined Palestinian and other Arab guerrillas who had been fighting Jewish forces since November 1947."
that seems like an attack by the arab states to me.

So please accept the facts.

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777236ER
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Wed Apr 17, 2002 2:26 am

LOL Encarta 97!!

Go Canada, i thought you were a historian?
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LY744
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Wed Apr 17, 2002 5:26 am

"Back then Israel was occupying Syrian and Egyptian territory too"

With their barely existing army, eh? Even the BBC(!) says that the Arabs were the agressors in the 1948 war.  Insane

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
EmiratesLover
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Wed Apr 17, 2002 9:07 pm

``I'm glad you came out and publically stated that, EmriatesLover, I really am. Now, why not, when there's another suicide bombing against Jewish civilians, you come out and start a thread condemning it, instead of always answering a thread that condemns it by ignoring the bombing and immediately heaping scathing damnations on Israel? ''

I did just that once.

And I pray to God there are no more suicide bombings.Innocents have suffered enough.

``and what's an ilk? Is it related to an elk? I look nothing like that''

I just checked with the Chamber's dictionary.It means type, or kind.An elk is a sort of animal, completely different.

``oh so emriates you now accep that the three faiths havent got on well with each other, oh at last''

Look at both sides of the story - there is a lot of co-existance as well.People of differnet faiths usually get on well.It is only when they do not that attantion is given.

For example, Malta is overwhelmingly Catholic, but there are Protestants, Muslims and Jehovah Witnesses too.Almost always they get on well, but theoretically if something untoward were to happen, the media would report it.So you get a distorted impression.

``and for the 1948 war, from encarta 97:"The new state had no agreed frontiers, but quickly received wide international recognition. However, on May 15 the armies of Egypt, Transjordan (now Jordan), Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq joined Palestinian and other Arab guerrillas who had been fighting Jewish forces since November 1947."
that seems like an attack by the arab states to me. ,''

Encarta 97 fails to mention that even before the Arab states ``attacked'' Zionist forces had already put into place Plan Dalet, in which the Zionists had already expelled hundreds of thousands of Arab non-combatants.This was done by massacres and atrocities similar to the former Yugoslavia.If the Zionists had already expelled hundreds of thousands of Arabs from their homes by the time the Arabs ``attacked'' how can the Arabs have been accused of starting the war.

Also, most of the fighting occurred in the territory already allotted by the UN to the Palestinian state, so how the Arabs could have ``thrown Israel into the sea'' is beyond me.

``vene your pro-arab friends accept that israel only started one war, why cant you accept this? ''

That is their problem.

Recommeded Reading -

Simha Flapan - Birth of Israel - Myths and Facts.

Norman Finkelstein - Images and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict.




 
Alpha 1
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RE: Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!

Wed Apr 17, 2002 10:01 pm

EmiratesLover, maybe you can answer one dead-serious question. In the equation as it now stands, do you feel that, right now, not 50 years ago, that Israel has the right to continued existence?

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