ryanb741
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UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 12:01 am

Lofti Raissi, the Algerian pilot suspected of training the September 11th pilots to fly has been acquitted by a UK court. The US was seeking his extradition.

Raissi had always maintained his innocence, and it seems that the court has believed his innocence. I only hope he can put his shattered life back together, as he had become a figure of hate amongst those who presumed his guilt.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
GDB
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 12:06 am

It became clear a few months ago that there was no proof of his involvement in terrorist activity, the FBI said they had some but it apparently amounted to nothing.
There's a far bigger fish, with stacks of dossiers on him from various agencies, awaiting extradition from Belmarsh Prision to the US, for a long involvement in Al-Queda activities.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 12:18 am

The FBI needed to show people that they were getting the bad guys, and so they decided to arrest anyone they liked. This guy happens to be algerian, he's a pilot and he lives near an airport, LHR.

Arsenal@LHR
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airsicknessbag
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 12:48 am

Even if the UK thought he was guilty they wouldn´t have extradited him. The European Convention on Human Rights of which the UK is a signatar forbids extradition when the death penalty might be used.

Daniel Smile
 
ryanb741
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 12:51 am

Trust me - the UK would have extradited him!
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L-188
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 5:38 pm

All that EU convention proves is that the EU has no intrest in upholding laws or providing justice.

He still has an arrest warent in this country, I am sure he will eventually slip up and travel to a country that will extradite him to meet his fate.
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OO-AOG
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 5:45 pm

L188

All that EU convention proves is that the EU has no intrest in upholding laws or providing justice.

No proof --- > No extradition. As simple as that.
We call it democracy, and that's also called respect of the law here. You must understand that your rules are not ours, and that justice is something serious on our side of the pond.

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ryanb741
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 5:52 pm

Geez - whatever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'? We can't just extradite someone because it seems like a good idea. The fact of the matter is that there was no evidence to support his extradition, so he was not extradited. It's as simple as that. We don't go around crying everytime the US executes a criminal, so don't start whingeing about the fact that we need proof before we destroy someone's life and extradite an innocent man.


What makes you think he is guilty anyway? What proof do you have?
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
L-188
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 6:22 pm

Hell we had a fair trial for Ira Einhorn and it took us a couple of decades to get him out of France and into the jail-cell where he belonged.

They where usuing that backwards EU law as an excuse too.

This guy never even got a chance for a trial, they where still in a lousy extradition hearing.
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Banco
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 6:46 pm

At the extradition hearing the FBI were asked for prima facie evidence that would facilitate an extradition. They didn't have any. How on earth do you expect an extradition hearing to proceed on that basis?

You're being a bit silly, L-188. If there is no evidence, and none was advanced, a person cannot be extradited. I really don't see how you can claim this to be an injustice.
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gkirk
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 8:10 pm

Yup, this guy was more than likely not guilty of anything, as proven by the Courts decision. You cant just go about putting anyone on Death Row if your not guilty. We would happily have iven him to you if there was evidence! There was none so he was rightly freed.
Just my opinion,  Big grin
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Guest

RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 9:14 pm

Not just your opinion GKirk, it was also the opinion of the court.



VH-ADG
 
L-188
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 9:19 pm

That still means that the court was wrong.

The man should have faced trial for his crimes.
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ryanb741
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 9:23 pm

Sigh.....

What 'crimes'? The court found that he had no crimes to answer for. End of story. Or does everybody facing trial in the US get automatically convicted?
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Banco
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 9:23 pm

Oh, for God's sake!

WHAT crimes? Let me say this slowly and loudly so you can understand:

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE that he committed any crime. Understand? NO evidence.

Do you advocate a system of justice whereby people should be put on trial regardless of the evidence?

How about: I say here and now that you L-188 are a member of the IRA who has committed bombings on mainland Britain. I therefore want you extradited. What do you think the outcome would be? The US court would quite rightly tell me to get lost, because there is no basis for the charge. That is what happened here, because the FBI had no evidence. And when I say no evidence, I don't mean "only a little" evidence, I mean, NONE. They did not present anything to the court.

How the hell does that give the basis for an extradition?
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L-188
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 9:24 pm

This guy never faced trial!!! That is the bloody point.

It was a lousy extradition hearing.
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BCal Dc10
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 9:26 pm

How can he face a trial when there is no evidence against him?
 
Banco
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 9:27 pm

Then let me put it another way: If a person goes to a committal hearing in the US, and is not found to have any case to answer, does that still go to trial? Of course not. Extradition hearings are similar. It is the role of the court to see if there is a case to answer, and there wasn't. Why? Because the FBI didn't put any evidence forward.
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ryanb741
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 9:28 pm

Hello? HEEELLLLOOOO TTTTHHHEEEERRREE? AANNNYYBBOODDYY HHHHOOOOMMME?

Yes he did face a trial - an extradition hearing which is determined to establish whether he should face a trial proper. When those wanting him to face a trial (the FBI) were asked to present their evidence, the answer was along the lines of 'We don't have any evidence'.

So you are telling me he should still be extradited on that basis? On the basis of NO EVIDENCE BEING OFFERED AT ALL. I thought the US prides itself on being a bastion of justice. That doesn't sound very just to me.....
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
L-188
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 9:35 pm

No, what offends me is that he lied on his pilot paperwork and then claimed that it wasn't wrong under the laws of a different country.

That is just bull.
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Arsenal@LHR
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 9:54 pm

NO EVIDENCE = NO CRIME = NO TERRORIST = NO EXTRADITION!!!!!!!!

Arsenal@LHR
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Guest

RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 10:33 pm

The Americans lost a heck of a lot of credibility on this one. After first saying that they had "firm, cast-iron evidence" that Raissi was responsible for the training of the terrorists, nothing was ever produced and instead of
simply saying "sorry, we got it wrong" they continued to try to press for his extradition with no evidence of any wrongdoing over anything at all.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/04/25/nlotf25.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/04/25/ixnewstop.html
 
L-188
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 10:44 pm

How can he not be extradited for falsifying his paperwork? The feds have the damm originals.
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ryanb741
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 10:52 pm

Failing to disclose details of knee surgery (because his original application stated this surgery so why does he need to state it again) hardly makes him a terrorist.....
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
L-188
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 10:55 pm

That's B******* Eal401. I would put what else I feel about that post but I would probably get banned.

I expect an appology from you for that wiseass comment. It was highly inappropriate

This guy broke US law, The US has his PPL paperwork with the false info he put on it. A UK judge said that UK law says he didn't have to fill it out the same way that US law said it did.

He wasn't facing a UK violation, he was facing a US one but the decision was made by a loophole in UK law.
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L-188
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 10:57 pm

Actually it was the 1993 conviction for theft that he had that caused the stir.
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Arsenal@LHR
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:03 pm

It was a US violation.

But he was tried in the UK by a UK judge.

UK law didn't find him guilty.

End of story. Deal with it dude.

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eal401
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:10 pm

OK, L-188 I probably picked on you for convenience there, sorry.

But I do wonder how different things would have been if this guy had NOT been Muslim. If the police arrested everyone who has been, shall we say, "economical" with the truth" in applications, they would be massively overworked.

The false paperwork issue here seems more like desperate attempts to scapegoat someone and appease the US public.
 
L-188
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:13 pm

But he wasn't being extradited because he broke UK law, The US was seeking extradition because he broke US law......


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gkirk
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:17 pm

This topic is starting to become hilarios and boring at the same time  Wow!  Confused
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saintsman
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:18 pm

If I got a speeding fine whist on holiday in the States would you expect me to be extradited if I didn't pay it?
 
L-188
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:20 pm

It takes work for that Gkirk....

EAL. Thanks. I will grant you that this guy may have mis-understood the way the forms where figured out, just like we where talking about in that Immgration topic that was brought up.

But I am just saying that it should have come to trial, in the US
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L-188
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:21 pm

Theft would be a phelony(spl?)

Just a hunch but I think you are safe Saintsman.
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gkirk
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:23 pm

So he's a terrorist cos he stole something and didnt put it down on his PPL? Many people do that I think? So he' just a lying thief  Big grin
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eal401
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:26 pm

What would the US be charging him for, supposing they did get hold of him, the false documents or terrorist links? Because I can understand the former, but not the latter.

BTW, it's "felony!"
 
L-188
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:29 pm

Thanks...It is six am here. Just couldn't remember.:D

The charge that he was facing was falsifying his pilot license paperwork. Which was widely reported in the media as a charge just to get him back in the US.

I don't really disput that part, but it is hard to find out what his other ties to some of the other students at the school he went to in the US are if we can't talk to him.

BTW at least one of those fellow students was one of the hijackers.
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Banco
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:37 pm

Blimey, this has moved on!

"BTW at least one of those fellow students was one of the hijackers".

This is where you need to be careful. You could equally argue that the flight instructors were "in on it" as well, on that basis. In other words, it has to be more than than pure circumstance.

As for wishing to just "talk to him", well, the US has in the past made requests to the British Government (and vice versa) for this to occur, and it has happened. There is a big difference between that, and asking a court to extradite him with no evidence to back up what the request is for. You simply cannot argue for a holding charge in an extradition case. Once again, there has to be a prima facie case against him. There wasn't, so that is it.

If it were the other way around, L-188, the result would be the same - British and American courts are quite similar don't forget.

I could understand your annoyance if he was released on a technicality, but this isn't the case here.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
ryanb741
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:37 pm

Sure, so the FBI will continue its investigations if necessary. If and when they do come up with evidence linking him to the hijackings, they can retry him at an extradition hearing. Until then they have no case though.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Guest

RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:45 pm

L-188

This would have to be the first instance of a person being told that the death penalty would be asked for, for simply lying on a medical form  Insane

Dude, before you go about saying how archaiac Europe's laws are....they are Europe's laws. Not America's laws. If Europe wants to take a stance on the death penalty, let them do it. Just like America takes a stand on the same subject.

Anyway must run....I have to catch Big Bird (or was it Barney) presiding over the Hollywood-bigtime-actor-murdered-his-wife case.  Acting devilish
 
Banco
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RE: UK Court Stops Extradition Of Sept 11th Suspect

Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:49 pm

Aviatsia.ru - it has nothing to do with the death penalty. It never got that far. I'm sure the defence might have argued that had the court decided there was a case to answer but it didn't.

I agree with Ryan earlier. I doubt that would have stopped an extradition had there been a case to answer.
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