Guest

"Occupied Territory"

Thu Apr 25, 2002 12:37 pm

i have a question. I live in Portland Oregon which used to be Chinnok territory. so do i live in a area that is occupied against the law? should the U.S on maps be covered in stripes and called the Occupied Territorys of America? i don't think that territory won in war is againt the law but what is the diffrence between the U.S and Israel?
 
roguetrader
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Thu Apr 25, 2002 12:43 pm

There is no difference between the US and Israel insofar as how they got the land, both take/took territory without the consent of the people living there.

One difference: the US admits it, and has made considerable efforts to deal with it. The US also took over its territory under its own power, foreign aid was never required except for the original colonies. Israel is artificially kept in existence by the US.

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
docpepz
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Thu Apr 25, 2002 1:06 pm

RogueTrader,

Apart from sketchy pieces of information regarding the creation of Israel, as well as biased news reports(all towards Israel) I get on the news channels, I'm not too well versed on the Mid East conflict. As such, I find your claim that "Israel is artificially kept in existence by the US" rather interesting. I've never heard that before.

Could you please elaborate? Thanks a lot.

Docpepz.
 
david b.
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Thu Apr 25, 2002 1:11 pm

They get 3 billion a year in aid from the US. They are a developed country and don't need it. Just a waste of tax payer's money. We give them military weapons. We shouldn't. Let them develop their own. Thats what he means by that.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
roguetrader
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Thu Apr 25, 2002 1:27 pm

Docpepz,

As David B. says, Israel receives at least 3 billion dollars a year from the USA. This is enough to send 150,000 Americans to college each year for free, and instead we're sending it to Israel so they can kill Palestinians, which they see as defending themselves.

Furthermore, it is the implied US guarantee of Israel's existence that keeps it from being overrun by its enemies on every side. This implied threat allows Israel to act like a superpower when it is in fact a tiny irrelevant country.

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
Guest

RE: "Occupied Territory"

Thu Apr 25, 2002 6:21 pm

I think if you are trying to make a point it would be best not to use situations that are 200 years apart wouldn't you? The world is a far different place than it was 200 years ago.

Something that was acceptable 200 years ago isn't necessarily acceptable now. We are far more educated and less ignorant than we were then and with education should come tolerance.




VH-ADG
 
EmiratesLover
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Thu Apr 25, 2002 8:06 pm

Dear Boeing in PDX,
frst of all I would like to commend you for your effort to try to understand what occupation is all about.

In the area which you live there once upon a time were Indian tribes, but that does NOT mean that your area is under occupation.

Firstly, I do not believe that there are armed soldiers, tanks and checkpoints all over the place.When I was in America last what struck me was the wide open spaces, so no occupation exists in the strictest sense.

Secondly, the issue of freedom of movement.Can you drive to the nearest town and back ? Or visit the local hospital when you feel sick and need help ? Or visit your grandparents a few miles up Noth ? Or go to work each morning ? Can you do all these things in your own country without being stopped every few miles at checkpoints where you are interrogated and humiliated every time you go?Or in some cases simply be turned back because are who you are.

Thirdly, can you be sure of waking up one morning and knowing that by the end of the day your house will still be yours and not demolished or taken over by some strangge looking folk who until only a few days ago were living on the opposite end of the world ?


Where you live in America, how do they treat immigrants ? Do you have special immigration laws that allow people from far away countries to move there and be treated with full benefits of citizenship and economic incentives immediately while the people who lived there first are made to live in second class housing at best or refugee camps at worst ?

Do you have police stations where they practice torture on the basis of guilty until proven innocent.Do you have to go without water for days while a few miles away from you people have swiming pools simply because they happen to belong to a different race ? Do you have to use dirt roads when you travel while the others have modern highways that only they can use ? Are you prohibited from buying land or a beautiful house on another neighbourhood simply because of who you are ?

If your answer to any of these quetions is no, then I do not believe that you live under occupation, and I am happy for you.Those of us who have read about the appalling conditions that exist in the Occupied territories of Palestine can all say with happiness that the humiliations and horrors of occupation are ones that we will never experience.
 
LY744
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Thu Apr 25, 2002 8:52 pm

"We give them military weapons. We shouldn't. Let them develop their own"

Something like, um, say the world's best short range AA missile (Python 4/5), the world's first operational ballistic missile defense system (Arrow), arguably the best MBT in the world (Merkava III/IV), the world's best protected APC (Achzarit), fighter jets (Nesher, Kfir), (prospective) fighter jet technology demonstrator (Lavi), medium range stand off AG missile exported to the US among others (Popeye, AGM-142), multi purpose sea launched missile (Barak), numerous UAV's, targetting and navigation pods for fighter jets (Lightning) etc. Stuff like that?  Insane

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Guest

RE: "Occupied Territory"

Thu Apr 25, 2002 9:06 pm

LY744,

you don't really think that Israel created that stuff without US help?




VH-ADG
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Thu Apr 25, 2002 10:05 pm

Furthermore, it is the implied US guarantee of Israel's existence that keeps it from being overrun by its enemies on every side. This implied threat allows Israel to act like a superpower when it is in fact a tiny irrelevant country

LOL!
I like that quote Big grin

Arsenal@LHR
In Arsene we trust!!
 
L-188
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Thu Apr 25, 2002 10:16 pm

Actually the Kfir was created because of Frances refusal to sell them Mirages, or more Mirages, however the story goes.

Not exactly the US but close enough Eh?
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Guest

RE: "Occupied Territory"

Thu Apr 25, 2002 10:49 pm

ADG,

At the time israel was formed the Europeans still had large empires.
 
Guest

RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 12:41 am

a tiny irrelevant country.

Rogue Trader, you wrote these spiritual words already 1000 times... there seems to be some kind of problem... a disguised "inferiority complex"? a frustration?

BTW, a French ambassador called Israel this shitty little country recently... it was perhaps your source of inspiration?
 
tbar220
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 12:51 am

a tiny irrelevant country

Is this not flaimbait/harsh language? Why is that post still around?
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tbar220
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 2:00 am

a tiny irrelevant country

Is this not flaimbait/harsh language? Why is this post still around?
NO URLS in signature
 
roguetrader
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 2:02 am

keep trying Tbar.

Note how you are upset that your opinions get deleted, yet you simultaneously want others deleted. See your own thread on this topic.

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
Marco
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 2:17 am

Rogue Trader,

Don't you think you're over doing it? Fine Israeli's are denying Palestinians some of their basic rights, but Israel has suffered a lot in the past. The Palestinians are no angels. Israel will always be an enemy to the Arab world. It's more complicated than what you may think, this conflict is very deep rooted. Try to put things into perspective. It's not another Afghanistan or Yugoslavia.

Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
roguetrader
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 2:28 am

No, Marco, I don't think I'm over doing it. I've studied the history of the land currently called 'Israel' and believe this to be nothing more than a simple real estate dispute at heart.

Religion and cold-war politics came into play, but these are not core to the problem. The core problem is that two groups of people disagree over who should occupy the same piece of land. Nothing more.

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
Marco
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 2:47 am

Fine, both races should, ideally speaking, live side by side. But the suicide bombings have got to stop. Killing teens in discos and pregnant mothers in pizzerias is a very low thing to do. They have to be shown that if they want peace, they will not achieve it by blowing the Israeli's up...
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 3:12 am

No one can deny that the Jews had lived in the now called Israel,West Bank,Gaza,and the nearbies.In fact they moved there with Mose who saved them from the Pharaos.On the journey,they,descendants of Israel/Jacob,showed disobediance to Mose who learned the Tora and went educating them with its instructions.
They arrived the saint land after 40 years of lost,as a punition to their deeds.Then,God forgave them and "preferred them to the others" !!!
Disobediant as they are,they betrayed God and broke
the pact !!!
Well,let's conclude with the fact that they had been excluded from the area !!!

This is,in summary of course,the story of the Jews in the area they are pretending to be their.
As you can see,nothing to be proud of !!!

Now let's make the comparison between Israel and America.

We have no live scenes and documentaries showing,in some ways,how the Europeans succeeded to "throw" away the real inhabitants.All what we have is some manuscrites describing the situation at the time.
Now,thank's God,we have different media and we can see minute by minute the crimes being done by the Israeli Army.
Any way,we are all sure that,in the Middle East conflict, there is only few,and minor,things in common with the settlement of the Europeans in the new lands and the establishement of the U.S.A.and i'm not talking about religious reasons here !!!

I can compare the soldiers who fought the AmerIndians with the U.N.peace keepers now...quite gentil guys !!!

Why didn't you compare the Israeli occupation of Palestine with the aims Hitler had to take control of the world ??? After what,land has always been a source of conflict !!! But not to that point ???

 
LY744
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 5:09 am

As for the 3 bils a year, much of it can potentially be replaced by Israel being able to export weapons and technology as it pleases, without US scrutiny (like the Phalcon deal with China).

As for the Nesher and Kfir, they are both based on the Mirage 5. The Nesher was essentially a copy of a Mirage 5 with GE J79 engines, which were built in IL after the 50 Mirage 5's it ordered from France were not delivered because the French scaled down their relations with IL. The various models of the Kfir were further developments of that design, also powered by J79's.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
roguetrader
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 5:36 am

Israelis are a people most of which were born somewhere else who are now fighting the people who have always lived in the region. Thus, they are very much like US displacing Native Americans:

Most of the people living in Israel were not born there, but came from somewhere else.

Of the people currently living in Israel, 20% are Arabs born in the region, the rest are:

Europe/America-born jews 32.1%, Israel-born jews 20.8%, Africa-born jews 14.6%, and Asia-born jews 12.6%.

source: The United States Central Intelligence Agency
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/

So, again the questions becomes, who is the occupying force? Who are the recent arrivals?

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
Marco
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 5:52 am

...but the original inhabitants of the land were Israeli's.

They were forced to move out of Israel by different peoples. Now they're finally back. To me it's the other way round. It's like the red indians (israeli's) reclaiming once more what's rightfully theirs.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
Guest

RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 5:52 am

Boeing,

Sure they had large empires, they still do. But they no longer annex the land of others as their own. Indeed countries such as mine have been given the opportunity to leave the empire if we so desire!

As I say, you cannot use the actions of centuries ago to justify the actions of now (or 50 years ago).

Marco,

The main problem I see here is people who justify what Israel does by using the excuse that they have sufferred in the past. Sure they have suffered but that's NO EXCUSE to then pass that suffering on to others.

Sure the suicide bombings must stop, but what incentive? Isreal marches into Palestine (an act of war), they attack, destroy, murder and they think that the suicide bombings will stop? It's been discussed before, they are merely encouraging MORE attacks rather than deterring it. The only way for Isreal to stop the attacks (without outside help) would be genocide. Which they appear to be working on at the moment.

Why did they attack the Australian run aid agency?

TS-isr,

Sure we can deny the words of the bible if we are athiests. To many of us the bible is a work of fiction (no offence intended), and while I respect your right to believe in your religion and your bible I DO NOT respect any right to have it waved in my face as a historical document.

Please find some more realistic "proof" to support your statements.

LY,

If Israel doesn't need the money then why are they accepting it? The money would be far better spent in the US. And RT is right, if Americas implied support was gone, so would Israel be, might upset your pride to hear that but it's true.



http://www.merip.org/palestine-israel_primer/zionism-pal-isr-primer.html
 
Marco
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 6:45 am

ADG,

I think ts-ior was refering to scriptures from the koran, after all he is muslim.

Just for the record I do believe the Bible to be the true word of God.

About the other points you mentioned, I agree with you, Israel hasn't been the kindest neighbor to Palestine either. But the mentality that suicide bombing will accomplish everything has got to go!
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
BA
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 7:13 am

Marco,

...but the original inhabitants of the land were Israeli's.

Actually no, the original inahbitants of the land were the Canaanites..............

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
advancedkid
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RE: Open Letter To President Bush

Fri Apr 26, 2002 8:52 am

Hi Folks,

Here's an interesting article that I came across
recently.

http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID

Regards,
Advanced

 
roguetrader
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 9:10 am

Advancedkid,

I can't get your article to pull up, are you sure thats a valid address?
 
advancedkid
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 11:37 am

Hi there,
here's the link again:
http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=14593
regards,
Advanced
 
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yyz717
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 11:44 am

A letter from govt-owned media in one of the most autocratic countries on earth? Oh yeah.....that's a real independent piece of journalism.  Yeah sure


When Saudi Arabia allows freedom of the press, freedom of religious worship, and allows a flourishing peace movement (as Israel does), I'll bother reading their lit.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
advancedkid
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RE:Yyz717 Open Letter To President Bush

Fri Apr 26, 2002 12:11 pm

Hi there,
I agree with most of how you described the Saudi,
however I think it's never a bad idea to give
an ear to what "other" news media is saying.

regards,
Advanced

 
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yyz717
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 12:24 pm

I don't disagree AK, just remember it's propaganda!

 Big thumbs up

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
BA
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 12:55 pm

Maybe that's what you think.  Insane
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BA
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 1:04 pm

Also Yyz717,

Saudi Arabia is a very neutral country. In general they refuse to participate in international affairs which is good!

However lately they have been participating more because of pressure from the people. Saudi Arabia is the richest country in the Middle East (and one of the richest in the world) so it is important for the world to hear what they have to say about this whole Israeli-Palestinian issue.

So don't go around bashing Saudi Arabia by saying it's all propoganda.

When Saudi Arabia allows freedom of the press, freedom of religious worship, and allows a flourishing peace movement (as Israel does), I'll bother reading their lit.

Are you telling Saudi Arabia is just wrong by not allowing freedom of press, freedom of religious worship? Do you know how many countries in th world have these rights? VERY VERY VERY few. And that doesn't make them a bad country.

Keep this in mind Yyz717, Saudi Arabia is a Monarchy. They take pride in keeping there old values and traditions which is why they are a strict country. The government rulers want this, and the people want this.

You can't force them to become a democracy just because you don't like the way they run there government.

Saudi Arabia doesn't brutally beat it's people. Yeah, so they are an autocracy. Does that mean they are brutal and harsh to there people? Just because it's a Royal monarchy with one main absolute ruler and strict old traditional rules? No..............

Democracy is not right for everyone Yyz717, keep that in mind.

Now this is meant to be a friendly post.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
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yyz717
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 1:14 pm

No, I hear ya BA. I read all posts in a positive light, and welcome challanges to my opinions.....it makes me think about my own views....and sometimes I change them.

By democracy, I mean grass roots democracy, the freedom to simply speak your mind, drive a car, not wear a veil, worhsip in freedom, drink alcohol, the freedom to print a newsletter. None of these exist.

Saudi may be a monarchy, but so are many European countries.....all of which are also democratic, and all fo which allow republican sentiment.

This Saudi article is indeed interesting reading...but it remains a mouth-piece of an autocratic govt. Peace rallies are not allowed in Saudi.

As for wealth, Saudi PCI has dropped precipitally since 1980, by more than 50% actually. Saudi is not the haven of wealth it once was. Civil unrest is always threatening to poke its head.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
BA
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 1:21 pm

Yyz717,

By democracy, I mean grass roots democracy, the freedom to simply speak your mind, drive a car, not wear a veil, worhsip in freedom, drink alcohol, the freedom to print a newsletter. None of these exist.

Yes, you are right, but Saudi Arabia is a very strict Islamic country and as a result drinking alcohol is prohibited. Wearing a veil is a custom of old Middle Eastern tradition that goes way back before Islam. Same with worship of freedom, press, and others.

None of these exist because the Saudi people don't want it to change.

Again Yyz717, why should Saudi Arabia change its way of life when the PEOPLE themselves do not want it changed? They like there old strict (but NOT brutal) way of life. They want to keep, and so it's staying.

As for wealth, Saudi PCI has dropped precipitally since 1980, by more than 50% actually. Saudi is not the haven of wealth it once was. Civil unrest is always threatening to poke its head.

Yes, it's PCI has dropped. But that doesn't mean it isn't a wealthy country. One of the main reasons why it dropped is because of the Persian Gulf War. They had to pay the US quite a bit. There are some occasional civil unrest as always in every part of the world.
The minority the disagree with the way the government is run.

But remember, this is just the minority. The majority don't want the way of life changed, which is why it isn't changing and probably won't for a VERY long time.

This Saudi article is indeed interesting reading...but it remains a mouth-piece of an autocratic govt. Peace rallies are not allowed in Saudi.

Any sort of protests, rallies, petitions are prohibited in Saudi Arabia whether peaceful or not.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
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yyz717
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 1:25 pm

How do you know the people of SA don't want to change their system? They're not given an outlet for expressing their views.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
roguetrader
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 1:25 pm

I think all official communications from a government can usually be called propaganda, whether its from the Saudis, Americans, Israelis or whoever... I mean, its a universal truth that governments are going to promote a view that makes the government look good and promotes their agenda, whether this is accurate or an accurate reflection of public opinion on a matter is of course another matter.

I think its fair to say that if you can protect basic human rights then the rest of the world will allow whatever kind of government you want: including whatever we want to call Saudi Arabia's monarchy mixed in with religion. I don't think free press, democracy, etc... are basic human rights. I'm talking about food, shelter, and minimal political prisoners.

Anyway...my point is that if Saudi wants a certain kind of government and is keeping their business to themselves, AND if the people aren't being murdered or jailed, then no one has a right to barge in and tell them how to run things.

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
BA
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 1:29 pm

Here is an example for you Yyz717,

The US is not a Communist country, but why? Because the majority of the people do not want communism. They want to be ruled under indirect democracy. Which is why the US is a democratic country.

If all of a sudden (this will never happen of course, at least I hope not) the people want to be ruled under communism and abolish democracy, then that is what the will happen to the US. It will become a Communist Country.

Same goes for Saudi Arabia. The people want to be ruled under a monarchy and maintain there old traditions. This is why it isn't changing.

Also, the Royal Family does not have its final say. Like democratic countries there is Checks and Balances.

The Royal Family has cabinet members who help them with there decisions and inform them what's going on. And of course there are government officials who check the Royal Family and make sure they do not abuse there power. There are different divisions of the government responsible for different roles such as the economy, health, etc.

So it is basically a modernized monarchy upholding the old traditions and beliefs.

Similar to UK's government.

It's not like the old monarchies of the medieval ages.  Big grin

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BA
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 1:33 pm

Yyz717,

I know this because I lived in Saudi Arabia for 10 years.

People are allowed to express there views, just not in protests, rallies, etc.

The people do have a role in electing officials in the monarchy.

Just like here in the US. We elect representatives.

In Saudi Arabia, they can elect officials and have there say in the goverment.

Don't think Saudi Arabia doesn't hear people, because they do. They're not communists.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
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yyz717
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 1:35 pm

Well, I argue that the oppression of any people anywhere against their will, is the business of freedom-loving people & nations. You could argue using your logic that an Iraqi-installed govt in Kuwait (after the brief Iraqi invasion) was as legitimate then as a Saudi-elite installed govt on the people of Saudi. Yet the US quickly put a stop to the Iraqi version.

Amnesty Intl (if memory serves, and it usually does) reports human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia as being far worse than in Cuba. Using your logic, Cuba has a certain type of govt and people aren't being murdered or jailed (at a rate more than many US allies)...and yet the US is getting involved in Cuba (with the embargo).

Seems the US is turning a blind eye to Saudi abuses, while seeking to punish others.

Oh, where did most of those 9-11 bombers come from BTW?..........Saudi Arabia. How about that.




I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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yyz717
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 1:37 pm

Thanks BA. Obviously there are shades of democracy in Saudi Arabia, but many of the freedoms we take for granted are not available to average Saudis.

Regards
Neil
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
BA
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 1:37 pm

And remember Yyz717,

Saudi Arabia respects human rights. They do not torcher prisoners. They do believe in the death penalty but its by lethal injection like here in the US.

They will not let there people suffer from hunger.
They have food shelters and aid for the poor and those who are in need.

They care about there people just like all countries that respect human rights.

Just because they don't allow freedom of speech, religions, press, etc. it does not mean they are brutal, because they are not.

I lived there, and I ALWAYS felt at ease. Only problem is getting into the country. They will search you, and check your ID well, and make sure you are not a convicted criminal or anything.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BA
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 1:39 pm

Yyz717,

The 9/11 bombers were brainwashed. Just like all Osama Bin Laden followers.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
roguetrader
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RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 1:54 pm

Lets just say that article is accurate of Arab/Muslim feeling towards the US. What they need to do is present this to the US people directly, I think that is what they are not understanding. (Perhaps because they are not used to the people's opinion having the power to change anything.)

I believe they have a valid point, the problem is their message isn't reaching the American people. Once the truth is known, the American people will demand that America's policies towards Israel are appropriate: including, most importantly ending US support of Israel.

They need to make an appeal directly to the US people, not the US government.

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
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yyz717
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 2:06 pm

RT, but is this fair?

No one in the West can reach the Saudi people directly. Why should we afford them the same privelege without equal reciprocity?

The West should do more to help Israel, as an outpost of democracy, free enterprise, rule of law, and freedome of worship. Outnumbered 50-1 by enemies, Israel will only lose a war once (and get wiped out).

The West is Israel is the West. We are they are us.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
roguetrader
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Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:14 am

RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 2:12 pm

We don't need equal reciprocity. The great thing about our system is that it wins even when other people play what you call unfairly. The Saudis and whoever else should buy US airtime and otherwise present their story directly to the American people. As it stands right now, Israel is hoping that doesn't happen through their manipulation of the US government.

Israel may be you, but its not me. Most Americans wish the US would take no side in their conflict.

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
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yyz717
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 2:18 pm

Israel is doing no different than any other Western nation would do if surrounded by enemies and outnumbered 50-1.

Although I agree that Israel has a strong lobby in DC that promotes its case. So why do you elect such pro-Israeli pols then?

Anyway, it's 1am here and I have a damned conference call at 7am. So ciao.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Marco
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Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 3:41 pm

RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 6:35 pm

However lately they have been participating more because of pressure from the people. Saudi Arabia is the richest country in the Middle East (and one of the richest in the world) so it is important for the world to hear what they have to say about this whole Israeli-Palestinian issue.

No, saudi is not one of the richest countries in the world. It's an average country. The majority of the saudi arabians are normal, if not poor people. It's only the royal family, which is HUGE (more than 10,000 members), that is extremely wealthy. The country as a whole is not that rich.

Also, illiteracy is high among the local population.

So don't go around bashing Saudi Arabia by saying it's all propoganda.

It is propaganda. There is no freedom of speech and the government is publishing what they think is right.

When Saudi Arabia allows freedom of the press, freedom of religious worship, and allows a flourishing peace movement (as Israel does), I'll bother reading their lit.

Are you telling Saudi Arabia is just wrong by not allowing freedom of press, freedom of religious worship


Yes they are wrong for not allowing all of thoe things mentioned. As a country belonging to the UN all of those things should be implmented in the country, especially freedom of religion. People are not allowed to think for themselves.

Do you know how many countries in th world have these rights? VERY VERY VERY few.

It's the other way around, very few countries do not have these rights.

And that doesn't make them a bad country.

If you read the books Princess and Daughters of arabia, you'll think about that statement again.

Keep this in mind Yyz717, Saudi Arabia is a Monarchy. They take pride in keeping there old values and traditions which is why they are a strict country. The government rulers want this, and the people want this.

The rulers want to westernize Saudi. Yet there are fanatics who have a lot of control over society who don't want this. The government has to balance this. Alcohol abuse, drugs and homosexuality are very common in saudi. It's called forbidden fruit.

You can't force them to become a democracy just because you don't like the way they run there government.

Nope, we can't force them, but monarchy does not equal dictatorship. They can remain a monarchy and yet respect people.

Saudi Arabia doesn't brutally beat it's people. Yeah, so they are an autocracy. Does that mean they are brutal and harsh to there people? Just because it's a Royal monarchy with one main absolute ruler and strict old traditional rules? No..............

No, not at all. Pre-marital relationships being punished by execution by a firing squad, or having your hand chopped off for stealing is hardly injustice. Women can't drive. Women are forced into marriages, sometimes with men 40 or even 50 years older than them. Forced brutal circumcision of women.

Democracy is not right for everyone Yyz717, keep that in mind.

Actually I agree with this statement. But dictatorship benefits no one. Socialism might. Monarchy might. Forcing people to believe in one religion, one mentality, benefits no one.

Look at the UAE. It's a perfect example of an Islamic country keeping its traditions alive, yet respecting the expat population. There are churches and mosques side by side here. everyone's happy. If someone's religious he/she doesn't have to drink. If someone isn't religious he/she can do as they like. It's called freedom of choice.

Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
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yyz717
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: "Occupied Territory"

Fri Apr 26, 2002 9:29 pm

Look at the UAE. It's a perfect example of an Islamic country keeping its traditions alive, yet respecting the expat population. There are churches and mosques side by side here. everyone's happy. If someone's religious he/she doesn't have to drink. If someone isn't religious he/she can do as they like. It's called freedom of choice.

Marco, I agree with you that the UAE is enlightened compared to Saudi Arabia. But don't forget, the UAE has a substantial ethnic-Indian minority who have lived in the UAE for generations.....and yet the UAE refuses to grant them citizenship, simply because of their Indian/non-Arab background. This is racial discrimination and would be completely unacceptable in the West. So compared to the West, even the UAE is barbaric with its minorities.




I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.

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