UAL747
Posts: 6725
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 1999 5:42 am

This Whole Israel Thing

Sat Apr 27, 2002 6:11 am

Honestly, I can't quite come to grasps on why the US gives 2 cents about Israel and why the Arab world always gets themselves in an uproar over Palestinians.

Israel offers NO economic benefit to the United States, and it in fact causes economic turmoil between the US and other Arab states. However, the US still manages to pump out billions into the Israeli economy, despite the current conflicts.

The Arab states on the other hand condem Israel and don't even flinch when a palestinian suicide bomber blows himself up and kills innocent civilians.

Also, another fault of the Arab states, as well as Israel, is their mix of politics and religion. For centuries religion has cause countless numbers of innocent people to perish in the hell of war.

I guess I just can't understand why the whole world gets in such an uproar over Israel and Palestine. Israel and Palestine offer no benefit for either sides. Now, Im not saying what is going on there isn't horrible, it indeed is terrible. Both the palestinians and israelis should be ashamed of how they are destroying their country and the people within.

UAL747

"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
UAL747
Posts: 6725
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 1999 5:42 am

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sat Apr 27, 2002 6:15 am

It's just amazing how easy this topic gets people on one side or the other. If the current situation was going on in some African country, I bet it wouldn't even cross our minds.

UAL747
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
roguetrader
Posts: 1404
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:14 am

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sat Apr 27, 2002 6:22 am

I can't quite come to grasps on why the US gives 2 cents about Israel

Because its supporters pay for a lobby group to give much more than 2 cents about and to Israel. Most Americans think that the US should take no sides in the conflict, but are ignored by their government.

Israel is a small country that relies on the US for its very survival, but the US gets nothing in return. In fact, Israel

posts sizable current account deficits, which are covered by large transfer payments from abroad and by foreign loans. Roughly half of the government's external debt is owed to the US, which is its major source of economic and military aid.

source:http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/

END US SUPPORT OF ISRAEL

kind regards,

RougeTrader

note: there is never a copyright to original US government printed information
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sat Apr 27, 2002 8:34 am

Man! I think the same thing about this issue everyday like Ual747 has mentioned.

In Arsene we trust!!
 
BA
Posts: 10133
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sat Apr 27, 2002 2:02 pm

Ual747,

You are a wise person. I wish more could hear what you said.

However, you need to consider one thing.

You mentioned this:
The Arab states on the other hand condem Israel and don't even flinch when a palestinian suicide bomber blows himself up and kills innocent civilians.

I think violence of ANY kind is just wrong. Killing innocent civilians on either side is never right in any case.

However, have you ever sat down and asked this question "Why are Palestinian suicide bombers blowing themselves up and killing innocent civilians?"

The answer is simple, anger, frustration. For 60 years they've been under oppression and they just can't take it anymore. They've wanted freedom but they haven't gotten it yet. So what do they do? They express there anger in one explosive amount of force by strapping bombs to themselves and killing innocent civilians.

This Israeli attack on Palestinian land is just going to create more Suicide bombers and more hate which will then lead to more killing on BOTH sides.

If more Americans ask this question, it would most definately help out the Israeli-Palestinian issue. The key role that we should do as Americans is ask questions, and THEN try to find a solution. Not just assume "Oh, the Palestinians are evil and blow up Israelis just for the heck of it".

The best thing the US should do is end it's support toward Israel. Then it can either chose to help out the issue by NOT joining sides. Or just stay out of it completely, and let it resolve itself.

As for me, I hate violence PERIOD. We live in a very sad world.......

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sat Apr 27, 2002 3:14 pm

BA,

I think violence of ANY kind is just wrong.

Don't be absurd. Laying out such unadulterated high-minded idealistic principles in such a way shows the same lack of a thought process that a Suicide Bomber, or other "righteous warrior" goes through.

So what you are saying is that when Hitler started WWII, the rest of the world should have just laid down and allowed themselves to be taken over? In front of Japan's advancing armies in China, should we have tryed to stopped them by English Bobby police tactics? You know, "Stop! Or I'll tell you to stop again!", followed by the sound of his body getting shreded by tank treads.

A bad guy breaks into your home. He binds you up, and begins to rape your daughter. Fortunately he was never a boy scout and you slip out of your bonds. What do you do? Wait 'till he's finished and gone? Or do you put a dent in his head?

Violence is extreme action, the final option available to civilized people after all others become ineffective. And unfortunately, not all peoples in the world are civilized, and bring out the violence card early.

Violence can be entirely justified to serve the common good, and therefore should not be the subject of silly statements like "I think violence of ANY kind is just wrong." It is the worst kind of pseudo-populist hippy tripe. Understand something before you critisize.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
david b.
Posts: 2894
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 7:18 pm

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sat Apr 27, 2002 4:12 pm

So..........muslim extreamists use violence to get back at America. Are you saying that that was justified? Your logic is totally absurd.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sat Apr 27, 2002 4:29 pm

So the US don´t benefit from Israeli inventions? Shall
I mention ICQ, drip-irrigation, all the aviation/weapon
technologies jointly developed by Israel/US and other
high-tech inventions.
If the Arabs have benefitted from the Palestinians? Well,
ask them, but I don´t think so....
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
aio86
Posts: 910
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sat Apr 27, 2002 4:48 pm

Where do I start...

Israel is important to the United States because it is the one true democracy in the Middle East. What's that quote the US is always using, they're fighting in the name of democracy, they're the arsenal of democracy or something like that. All of the surrounding nations, although I'm not saying are bad or corrupt (while many definately are), are at least partial monarchies. A king or sheik is in charge of the country.
On a related issue, after conquering the Gaza and West Bank in 1967, the reason they weren't annexed to Israel proper like the Golan Heights was because if they inherited all of the Palestinians from the state, due to their true democracy, they would have to give the Palestinians the right to vote. This would mean there would be more Arab voters than Jewish ones, lest leading to an Arab government in Israel and pretty much the end of the Jewish state.

The US uses Israel for: Intelegence, military aircraft modificiation, machine guns for its military (Uzi) and if it were necesary Israel would allow the US use of its bases. Also remember those nuclear reactors in Iraq where they were developing nukes, the US, NATO etc. didn't perform the highly riskie sortie to bomb it, Israel did.

For those that say just have Israel move out of the West Bank, troops, settlements, the whole nine yards, and say there becomes a state of Palestine. The state of Palestine is independent with its own army, Israel unable to deny it weapons from other countries etc. What would happen? Would the bombings stop? In my, and many's opinion, no. The Palestinians hate Israel and it often seems they are more interested in the destruction of the Jewish state rather than the formation of the Palestinian state.

Now there are also the Palestinian people. They are considered the lowest form of the Arab people. They are refuges, and a different sect of Arabs. The Egyptians didn't want them. Israel tried giving the Gaza strip back to Egypt in the same peace treaty where it gave Egypt back the Sinai, yet Egypt refused because of the fact there were close to a million Palestinians there. Jordan was sick of the refuge problem and in case Black September doesn't ring a bell to anyone, the Jordanian army killed something like 10,000 of them in one month in some refuge camp that was giving them trouble. Compared to that, how agressive does Israel seem?

Another important aspect. What training does Arafat have as a leader? None certainly in any government position. He's been the leader of different terrorist groups all his life. His most powerful diplomats and governors are his terrorist comrades. If a nation independent under Arafat arises, how would he deal with a problem? What do you think?

I agree that it is awful what is happening there, and I hope that things get resolved quickly. I also hope that I've begun to change some of your minds that Israel is important to the US (and obviously) vice versa.

-aio86
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sat Apr 27, 2002 5:06 pm

Aio86

Israel isn't a true democracy. In the last report issued by Amnesty International, the findings were that Israel has a similar human rights status as Iraq!

Also, you say giving the Palestinians back their land would lead to the end of a Jewish state. And just why is that so bad exactly? Why should we care what religion a particular country is anyway? The land belongs to its rightful owners irrespective of religion, class or colour.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
ly772
Posts: 1269
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2001 9:33 pm

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sat Apr 27, 2002 5:13 pm

BA: What you are saying is bullshit. This is what you are saying: Israel should not respond to Palestinian Suicide bombers, right? Because they are "justified"? What about America? They had an attack on civilians and they are now IN A WAR and not one person says, "but the Americans provoke it by supporting Israel or by invading Iraq or whatever"...

You are saying that Israel is not fair responding to Palestinians, but the American WAR is justified.
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sat Apr 27, 2002 9:48 pm

I get a bit tired of the claim that Israel is the only democracy in the ME and therefore the US must support them.

The reality is that the US does not really want Saudi, Egypt, Kuwait et al to become true democracies as they may not like the democratic decisions those countries then make, namely to no longer be suppine providers of oil and buyers of US weapons. The current state of affairs re. absolute monarchies such as Saudi Arabia suits the US just fine and any statements regarding a desire for democracy in these countries are total bullshit.

Clearly a case of being careful what you wish for because you might just get it !
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
avi
Posts: 883
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 1:27 am

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sat Apr 27, 2002 10:59 pm

The answer is simple, anger, frustration. For 60 years they've been under oppression and they just can't take it anymore.

BA,

You are forgetting that the Palestinians in the Gaza strip DON’T live under Israeli occupation for the past 9 years and the Palestinians in the West Bank for the past 7 to 8 years.

They are living under the PA authority rule.
How did it change their lives?

It DIDN’T. Nothing (good) has happened.
If nothing good came out of it, that means that things got worse and Israel has nothing to do with it.
They had great expectation but Arafat didn’t care about them. He was busy in traveling all over the world.
Now think again why were they frustrated.

the Jordanian army killed something like 10,000 of them in one month …

Aio86,
When Arabs are fighting Arabs its end quickly. It took them less than a week!


Long live the B747
 
BA
Posts: 10133
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sat Apr 27, 2002 11:53 pm

LY772,

You really like putting words in my mouth, don't you?

Tell me, WHERE in my post did I say Palestinian suicide attacks are justified!

I never said anything close to that! Infact I'm the one who HATES any kind of violence on ANY people.

I am simply stating a fact that suicide bombers are created because they are angry, and frustrated and do not want to live ANY longer under Israeli oppression. So what do they do? They let out there anger in one explosive force by strapping bombs to themselves and killing innocent civilians.

Learn to READ before to attack someone's post....

Sheesh....

And Cfalk,

I don't like violence. Respect that! You can say that I am a pacifist. I don't like wars, I don't like killing. Now if you think that I am for peace and against killing of any kind is wrong, then you are just absurd.....
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BA
Posts: 10133
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sun Apr 28, 2002 12:00 am

Aio86,

Israel is important to the United States because it is the one true democracy in the Middle East.

No, Israel is not the one true democracy in the Middle East.

It's northern enemy, Lebanon is another democracy.

And if you consider Turkey part of the Middle East, then that is another democracy....

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sun Apr 28, 2002 5:02 am

BA,

Infact I'm the one who HATES any kind of violence on ANY people.

Now that is a much more sensible statement. You can hate something, while recognizing that perhaps it was necessary, like the Hiroshima bomb or open-heart surgery. I respect that position, but that's not quite what you said earlier.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
BA
Posts: 10133
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sun Apr 28, 2002 5:06 am

Cfalk,

No problem, glad you understood what I meant.

I just hate killing period. I hate guns, I hate bombs, I hate grenades, I hate killing period. Doesn't matter who did it, I hate it all.

What I want is a world where everyone lives together in peace. To the point where there would be no need for weapons anymore to defend ourselves since there would be nothing to defend from.

This will never happen, I know. And it's quite sad that it won't happen.

Like I said, we live in a sad world.

We are the most violent creatures on earth.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sun Apr 28, 2002 5:17 am

Oh, and David B., I did not say that all violence is justified. It CAN be justified, particularly in response to a violent attack on you.

For instance, Considering the numerous and extensive complaints that the Palestinians have against the Israelis, it would be justified that they attack, by any means they can, Israeli military personel and installations, in order to make their point. They did have some success recently at this. However the specific targeting of civilians cannot be justified by any reasoning I can think of in a modern context. This is their biggest mistake.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
avi
Posts: 883
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 1:27 am

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sun Apr 28, 2002 6:57 am

I am simply stating a fact that suicide bombers are created because they are angry, and frustrated and do not want to live ANY longer under Israeli oppression.

BA,

Again, you are wrong.
The suicide attacks began after Israel started to withdraw from the Gaza strip.
There were many suicide attacks parallel to Israel withdrawal from the West Bank cities.
They saw the occupation ending and still they tried to stop Israel withdrawal (I guess Hamas knew that living under the PA authority will be worse than living under Israel control  Smile ).

The suicide attacks has nothing to do with anger or occupation only with the desire to kill Israelis.

The PA got land from Israel only when they talked with Israel not when they attacked it.
When you attack, expect retaliation.

It's northern enemy, Lebanon is another democracy.

And if you consider Turkey part of the Middle East, then that is another democracy....


Yes, Turkey is a democracy state but not an Arabic state as the rest of the countries in the Middle East except Israel and Cyprus (which are not even a Moslem countries).

Lebanon is a democracy?
That was a very good joke. One of the best I ever heard.
Lebanon is not even a state, it’s an office in Damascus.
What ever will be in Lebanon is determined in Syria.
There is no doubt in my mind that if it was the Lebanon president decision, the Lebanese army was going south to the Israeli border and keep it quiet and don’t let Hizbulla the possibility to attack Israel almost every day. But Syria doesn’t let him. Some democracy.

BTW, in 1982 after the elected president announced that he is going to make peace with Israel as Egypt did, he was murdered by Syria few weeks later.

Long live the B747
 
airafrique
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 4:25 am

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sun Apr 28, 2002 7:18 am

"If the current situation was going on in some African country, I bet it wouldn't even cross our minds."

You're right Ual747, Thousant of people are dying every day in Congo. Nobody care.......  Pissed

The Isreal/Palestine problem has a solution:

The whole world should impose a peace process. Jerusalem will be a international City own by everybody and under the rule of the UN. No waypon will be admited in that city.

Create un Palestine State, Israel is already a State.

We are tired of that 2000 years old issues.



 
BA
Posts: 10133
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sun Apr 28, 2002 7:39 am

Avi,

No you are wrong again. The Palestinians have been at war with the Israeli's since the CREATION of Israel.

Don't make it sound like it's something new because it isn't!

The suicide attacks has nothing to do with anger or occupation only with the desire to kill Israelis.

LOL! That's the funniest thing I've ever heard in these forums so far.

Lebanon is a democracy?
That was a very good joke. One of the best I ever heard. Lebanon is not even a state, it’s an office in Damascus.
What ever will be in Lebanon is determined in Syria.


Wait wait wait, now that is even funnier. What you have said there is COMPLETELY false. Lebanon IS a country of it's own with it's own government. Lebanon and Syria have very close relations. They are allies. You must think France isn't even a country and is part of the United States then, I assume?

And yes, Lebanon IS indeed a democracy. Apparently you do not know what a democracy is. This is the definition of a democracy from Webster's dictionary: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usu. involving periodically held free elections

Lebanon is a country that is run by it's people. Citizens elect representatives. Freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom of religion, freedom to petition, freedom to criticise the government are all rights in Lebanon.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BA
Posts: 10133
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sun Apr 28, 2002 7:45 am

Sorry let me be a bit more clear.

Syria has a lot of influence on the decisions that Lebanon makes because during the Lebanese Civil War, Syria came in and helped calm things down. As a result since then, they've had a lot of influence on what decisions Lebanon makes.

However, Lebanon is a country of it's own, with it's own president, prime minister, and a democratic government.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
fspilot747
Posts: 3455
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 1999 2:58 am

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sun Apr 28, 2002 7:47 am

Avi: are you trying to tell us that Israel infact IS a democracy? Israel is a self declared "jewish state." this right here counteracts the quality essential to a true democracy. For you to even argue that Lebanon isn't a democracy while seemigly claiming that israel IS is almost humorous, (almost).

Israel is a democracy for jews only. Just as the Apartheid was a democracy for europeans.

-FSP

 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sun Apr 28, 2002 9:42 am

Israel was actually declared a sovereign state by the UN in 1948. At more or less the same time, allocations were given to Jordan and to Syria also, but Yasser and crew rejected the land and deal that was allocated to them and have continued to fight ever since. As for the claim that the Palestinians only started fighting Israel due to occupation, go back to your history books, and you may see that Yasser and Co were lobbing bombs into Israel 3 years before any occupied territories

Jeremy
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sun Apr 28, 2002 2:24 pm

Avi,

The suicide attacks began after Israel started to withdraw from the Gaza strip.
There were many suicide attacks parallel to Israel withdrawal from the West Bank cities.
They saw the occupation ending and still they tried to stop Israel withdrawal (I guess Hamas knew that living under the PA authority will be worse than living under Israel control ).


Israel agreed to withdraw from the West Bank? Including all the settlements? Really? Where did you hear that one? I think you dreamt it.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
avi
Posts: 883
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 1:27 am

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Sun Apr 28, 2002 9:49 pm

BA and Cfalk, what is wrong with you? Can’t you read?

BA, I didn’t say that the war with the PA started in 1993 (when Israel started to withdraw from the Gaza Strip), I said that the suicide attacks began at that time (actually in 1994).
My exact sentence was: The suicide attacks began after Israel started to withdraw from the Gaza strip.

The conflict with the PA started even before 1948.

Cfalk,
I said that Israel withdrew from the West Bank cities.
Again, the exact sentence was: There were many suicide attacks parallel to Israel withdrawal from the West Bank cities.
The vast majority of Palestinians live under the PA authority control, not Israeli control for the past 6-9 years.

FSP,
Israel is a democracy and not only for the Jews.
The none Jews population of Israel (Moslems, Christians and other minorities) has the right to vote and there are Arabs in the Knesset (the Israeli parliament).

Back to Lebanon,
BA, the fact that you send to posts in 5 minutes said that you understood by yourself that there is a problem with your first post and Lebanon is not exactly free.

Yes they have president, P.M and parliament but it doesn’t say that they can do what ever they want.
Even Lebanon P.M. understand that the Hizbulaha attacks against Israel isn’t a Lebanese good interest, but he can’t do anything to stop it because Syria doesn’t let him and one day Israel will retaliate (probably after some Israelis will get killed) and nothing good will come out of it. It is a puppet rule.

What Syria does in Lebanon is not an influence, it’s controlling (you don’t need your army in other country to influence them).

Long live the B747
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Mon Apr 29, 2002 1:25 am

Israel is either 1) occupying the West Bank, or 2) not occupying the West Bank. You cannot be half pregnant.

The only way 2) above would be satisfied is if there is not a single Israeli soldier or any settlements anywhere in the West Bank, except perhaps an Israeli consulate or Embassy someplace. This has not been true since 1967, so don't pretend it has been.

Don't get me wrong. I in fact support Operation Rampart (or whatever the name of this operation is). Clearly the PA was not doing enough (if anything) to stop the terrorism. But Israelis nor anyone else should not delude themselves that Israel has dealt honestly with the Palestinians.

Let's get this straight. The Palestinian fighters (terrorists, whatever you want to call them) fall basically into 2 camps. 1) Those who want an independant Palestinian homeland, free of any occupation (including settlements), and 2) those who want to wipe out Israel. I'm convinced that MOST of them are in the first category, and wouldn't it be nice to at least get rid of half your enemies by vacating the West Bank of settlements and military? It would be an excellent show of good faith, which so far has been sorely lacking.

Let me reitterate. Even if Israel backs out of 80 or 90% of the West Bank, which as you say they did in the 90's, it doesn't matter a hoot, because 10% or 100%, Israeli forces still occupy West Bank soil.

Operation Rampart has done quite a bit of work already, and I don't see it doing any more good. They should head back to 1967 borders, and take the settlers with them, by force if necessary. Then they can tell Arafat, "OK, you have your country, show us you can manage it and prevent attacks on your neighbors. Otherwise we will come in again and clean it up for you, just like the last time."

On a different issue, I have to admit I am worried about the Janin business. Israel has stalled so much that there cannot be any explanation than they want to cover some things up. I hope I'm wrong.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
avi
Posts: 883
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 1:27 am

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Mon Apr 29, 2002 3:43 am

Cfalk,

Israel started to withdraw from the West Bank but didn’t finish it because the PA decided to blow the process up on September 2000 (the withdrawal from the Sinai Peninsula was also in several steps but Egypt didn’t stop it so we completed it).

The PA cities weren’t under Israeli occupation on September 2000. Period. (Life is not only white and black, there is also gray).

And I’ll say it again, the process wasn’t ended.

Let's get this straight. The Palestinian fighters (terrorists, whatever you want to call them) fall basically into 2 camps. 1) Those who want an independent Palestinian homeland, free of any occupation (including settlements), and 2) those who want to wipe out Israel. I'm convinced that MOST of them are in the first category

Even if you right here (and I’m not saying you aren’t) this is the problem in all of the Arab world. The silence majority let the extremist minority to control everybody lives (However many times they simply don’t have a choice. The extremists use violence and they have two choices: be quiet or be dead. (And I’m not talking only about the PA))

Withdrawal to the 67 lines without agreement is very dangerous. We tried it with Lebanon and it doesn’t really work (and what about Jerusalem, should Israel give back the most holy place for the Jews to PA control?).

Israel has nothing to hide about Jenin but it looks like the check committee can write its conclusion without coming here. It’s going to be the same report.
* They will blame Israel in 100%.
* They will ignore the Passover massacre that left 28 people dead and other PA attacks that ignited this operation.
* They will ignore the fact that the army went in because we didn’t want to bomb it from the air (with F15 and F16) and kill innocent people (as the US did in Afghanistan and Yugoslavia to protect their soldiers) and it cost us 23 soldiers.
* They will ignore all the armed PA.
* They will ignore all the bombs that were every corner. Etc etc etc (I’m sure there are other things I don’t remember now).

BTW, Did you know that few days ago the Red Cross in Israel held a press conference and condemn the Israeli army for its refusal to help in removing the PA bombs in the camp? Nice, isn’t it?


Long live the B747
 
eg777er
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Mon Apr 29, 2002 8:56 am

It may surprise some members to know that the majority of Arabs that I have met (and I have lived in the Middle East for over a decade), have no quarrel with the Jews.

Jew and Muslim have lived in the Middle East harmoniously for thousands of years - Bahrain has a synagogue for example, and a Jew in the Cabinet. One of the biggest trading companies is called 'Roubens' Stores.

However, their quarrel is with the Zionists - a race whom I believe have been kicked out of every other area in the world (particularly Eastern Europe, even before Hitler came along). That's why in the Arab press it's always 'Zionist atrocities', not 'Jewish' ones.
 
seven_fifty7
Posts: 900
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 2:54 am

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Mon Apr 29, 2002 9:59 am

And that is precisely what I've always been wondering, EG777er. U.S. journalists and TV news media are notorious for misrepresenting civilian attitudes about certain political events.

If one listens to ABC News, FOX, or Washington Post, you'd be led to believe that 90% of the mideast civilian population is ready to kill any and every American tourist or Jew in sight.

We're being taught that MOST of the average citizens in Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Bahrain, etc., absolutely HATE every American or Israeli man, woman, and child.
 
roguetrader
Posts: 1404
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:14 am

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Mon Apr 29, 2002 11:40 am

I have to re-affirm my belief in SEVEN_FIFTY7's post and expand on it if I can.

Americans are being told to believe that many Muslims and certainly most Arabs hate America and Israel. We are told that they resent our freedom, our wealth, and that they are religious fanatics. Americans are presented with the idea that virtually the entire populace of nations believe this.
Many Americans on this forum believe exactly this view given by the US government to some degree and the US media to a large degree.

Americans are never told that Arabs resent Israel because in Arab eyes a group of people are occupying land rightfully belonging to Arabs. American media concentrates on the religious differences and the extremists who may use terrorism, but offer little to no insight into the feelings of average Arabs and Muslims.

This has created a view in many Americans that "if you disagree with the USA", you are automatically wrong.

Simultaneously, many Americans can admit that the US government does many wrong things at home, but can't make the connection that its possible for the US to make foreign policy mistakes as well. Many Americans leave it at that and don't go further to investigate why some people may be mad at America and its primary foreign policy disaster: Israel.

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
Guest

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Mon Apr 29, 2002 5:38 pm

The time is right to take concerted global action against a neo-fascist state which is the source of much regional strife; which oppresses many of those that fall under its control, has committed numerous atrocities, has invaded other countries, ignores UN resolutions, refuses to allow UN inspectors access to inspect areas under its control and is reviled by much of the civilised world.

Iraq?

No, Israel.

RogueTrader is spot on.

Israel's actions against the Palestinians are identical to those of the Nazis against much of Europe during the Second World War. The French Resistance - who were regarded by the British and Americans as allies and heroes - attacked the Nazis through guerrilla actions in exactly the way that the Palestinians are attacking the Israelis. Why? Because the Israelis invaded their territory, siezed it, and despite international agreements, conventions and resolutions have refused to return it.

No wonder the Palestinians are upset - imagine how the Americans would feel if, say, the Venezuelans invaded Puerto Rico?

Another inconsistency: America wants to attack Iraq on the basis that it "might" be developing weapons of mass destruction. Well, newsflash people - Israel has weapons of mass destruction (nuclear, nerve and chemical) and would not hesitate to use them against anyone if they felt it was necessary. Remember, this is the country that attacked a US naval vessel, killing US sailors, because they were concerned that it would reveal an Israeli sneak attack on the Egyptians in contravention of an agreement with the Americans.

During the Six Day War, Israeli aircraft were equipped with nuclear bombs and had the Syrians broken through Israeli lines as looked likely at one point, they would have been used.

Israel has contributed nothing to the United States in exchange for the trillions of dollars of aid over the years that have propped up its bankrupt economy and kept successive neo-fascist regimes in place. American aid has directly resulted in the deaths of many thousands of Muslims, in the form of the latest generation weaponry supplied to Israel - so is it any surprise at all that the Islamic world is upset with the United States?

Israel is as much a democratic state as South Africa was under apartheid, and for very similar reasons. They are an embarassment to the civilised world - and the civilised world needs to take concerted action against them now.
 
cfalk
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RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Mon Apr 29, 2002 5:50 pm

The French Resistance - who were regarded by the British and Americans as allies and heroes - attacked the Nazis through guerrilla actions in exactly the way that the Palestinians are attacking the Israelis.

Uh... There is a slight difference. The French Resistance attacked German military targets. There were not that many German civilians running around France at the time. If the Palestinians kept their attacks to military targets only, I would agree with you, but intentionally blowing up civilians in shopping malls and restaurants is hardly on the same moral level. This is the difference that seperates freedom fighters and terrorists.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
LY744
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RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Mon Apr 29, 2002 8:18 pm

"Americans are being told to believe that many Muslims and certainly most Arabs hate America and Israel"

And how many Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians do you personally know, RogueTrader?

"Israel's actions against the Palestinians are identical to those of the Nazis against much of Europe during the Second World War"

Perfectly identical, except that they aren't trying to conquer more land for themselves, they aren't setting up concentration and death camps (I'm sure you'll tell me they actually are), haven't taken over most of Europe (yet?), they are not at war with half the world, are not a dictatorship etc.


LY744.

Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
cfalk
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RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Mon Apr 29, 2002 8:28 pm

Perfectly identical, except that they aren't trying to conquer more land for themselves,

Not quite true. Israel does have a sizable and politically powerful section of society that does in fact want to claim the West Bank for further settlements (i.e. Lebensraum)

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
LY744
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RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Mon Apr 29, 2002 8:36 pm

Their numbers are significant, but they are still a minority, and hopefuly the settlements will be removed soon.

"During the Six Day War, Israeli aircraft were equipped with nuclear bombs and had the Syrians broken through Israeli lines as looked likely at one point, they would have been used."

Did Charles Bishop tell you that?  Insane You do realize that it is a ficticious scenario taken from a book, right? Only it's supposed to be the 1973 war, not the 1967 one (when the Syrians did come close to get past the Golah Heights). That's another difference between Israel and the Nazis (and Iraq for that matter), they don't have a history of using WMD.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
artsyman
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RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Mon Apr 29, 2002 8:55 pm

I am glad that Israel had weapons of mass destruction, because if they didn't have those as a deterant, I shudder at the consequences. I actually apply the same rule to Britain and America

Jeremy
 
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RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Mon Apr 29, 2002 9:20 pm

During the Six Day War, Israeli aircraft were equipped with nuclear bombs and had the Syrians broken through Israeli lines as looked likely at one point, they would have been used.

How stupid can someone be?
An atomic bomb over Syria in general and Damascus in particular will bring the end over Israel too.
It will contaminate all of Israel water sources and than what will we do?

Dropping an Atomic bomb on Syria is almost as same as dropping it over Israel.

And of course it works on the other direction as well.
Dropping a bomb on Israel (by Iran for example) will bring the end over the PA problem as well.
Long live the B747
 
Marco
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RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Tue Apr 30, 2002 12:39 am

Syria has a lot of influence on the decisions that Lebanon makes because during the Lebanese Civil War, Syria came in and helped calm things down. As a result since then, they've had a lot of influence on what decisions Lebanon makes.

The Syrians helped to calm things down in Lebanon? are you serious? You expect people to take you seriously when you say things like that? BA please put some thought into your posts. I won't even bother going into what the Syrians have done to Lebanon. To put it in the words of many Lebanese and Arabs what the syrians have done is similar to the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq.
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RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Tue Apr 30, 2002 1:07 am

Israel is important to the United States because it is the one true democracy in the Middle East.

But it's NOT...that's the thing I think the supporters of Israel don't seem to think the rest of us are wise to.

Israel is an engineered democracy. As long as the Jewish state stays majority Jewish, democracy reigns. If the non-Jewish population became a majority, how vaunted would the ideals of democracy be in the Israeli mind? Seperation of church and state is and has been one of our most precious values in America. In Israel, it's nonsense.

Israel is a theocracy...one that nobly includes many traits not normally associated with such a system, but a theocracy none the less. The present form of Israel is, like it or not, precisely the kind of state the American founding fathers warned against establishing.

There are a myriad of reasons for the US to show support to Israel. But that show of support cannot and should not dilute or obscure the fact that while our cultures share much of the same values, there remain very important and not-to-be whitewashed differences.
 
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RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Tue Apr 30, 2002 6:29 am

Germany was a democracy during the WW2, Hitler was the elected representative of the majority.

On a more recent I believe Milosovich was also an elected representative of a democracy and he's currently facing war crimes charges.

I don't think democracy should be any indicator about whether a country should be supported or not. We should support countries on their behaviour rather than their method of government.




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Klaus
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RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Tue Apr 30, 2002 8:11 am

ADG: Germany was a democracy during the WW2, Hitler was the elected representative of the majority.

Nonsense. A democracy implies that the people have the choice of their representatives. And they didn´t, obviously, at that point.
 
BA
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RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Tue Apr 30, 2002 8:47 am

Marco,

The Syrians helped to calm things down in Lebanon? are you serious? You expect people to take you seriously when you say things like that? BA please put some thought into your posts. I won't even bother going into what the Syrians have done to Lebanon. To put it in the words of many Lebanese and Arabs what the syrians have done is similar to the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq.

Give me a break Marco. I am a Lebanese living in the US, I've been in Lebanon during the war and I know a little bit about my country.

If it wasn't for the Syrians, the Lebanese Civil War would probably still be going on right now. If you knew anything about the Lebanese Civil War, you would know that it was the Syrians that helped calm the region and put an end to the violence.

This is why Lebanon and Syria are so close now.

Again Marco, you fail to prove your point without showing a bit of proof. Hmmm.....maybe it's because you have no proof?  Insane
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BA
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RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Tue Apr 30, 2002 9:16 am

Not only that Marco, but the Syrians were invited in to Lebanon. Sounds a lot like Iraq invading Kuwait, doesn't it?  Insane
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
roguetrader
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RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Tue Apr 30, 2002 9:35 am

Nonsense. A democracy implies that the people have the choice of their representatives. And they didn´t, obviously, at that point.

People always have a choice of their representatives, whether they realize or not is a different issue. Whether it will cost lives to get their representatives is also a further consideration. Everyone has had to fight to be free. But, people always have the choice of how they're governed.

This is particularly true of Germany both preceeding and during WWII. It wasn't just hijacked by someone. Hitler was elected and continued to hold power precisely because he was so popular among the people.

ADG is right: democracy alone does not deserve immediate respect nor relieve a government from criticism.

How is it that (if you ever do get an Israeli to admit that Israel was created from Palestine), they say they had a right to create a new state because the UN gave them permission -

--yet at the same time they say that the UN has no right to even visit the very land that was granted to them (or the Palestinians) by the UN?

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
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yyz717
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RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Tue Apr 30, 2002 9:49 am

People do not always have a choice in how they are governed. People born under a dictatorship are unlikely to be able to overturn that dictatorship. In theory, a population can overturn a govt en masse but the organizational effort is huge & can usually be thwarted by the dictatorship in power before it gains strength. As such, we in the West can help oppressed people by limiting trade ties with non-democratic nations, and providing strong military & economic ties to democracies.

Israel (ie, the Jewish homeland) did not 'ask' or 'have' to be in Palestine...its current location was not decided by Jews....it was decided by the UN. The UN scouted several sites for a Jewish homeland, including Uganda and the Caribbean. Palestine was chosen as there was already a signif Jewish presence there.

Arguably, the Jewish homeland SHOULD have been smack dab in the middle of Europe.....we can't turn back the clock, but if we could, I can't think of a better Jewish homeland than a big slice of Germany or Poland. Too late of course. I agree with the Arab frustration that Europe created the need for a Jewish homeland (via the Holocaust) but gave the problem to Palestine.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Tue Apr 30, 2002 10:47 am

ADG, you were sort of right-Hitler did come to power LEGALLY, appointed to the Chancellor's post by a dying Von Hindenberg, but Germany was NOT a democracy at that time.
 
Marco
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RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Tue Apr 30, 2002 11:30 pm

Lebanon invited Syria?

Hah! The Lebanese Christians did not want Syria to invade. The only people who wanted Syria to invade were the shi'ite muslims in the south, so they could get help fighting Israel.

Every Lebanese wants Syria out (except for you), but they are still there even though the war is over. They only made the war worse when they invaded. My mother, father and elder brother were living in Lebanon when the civil war broke out, so I would know that.

Proof? Are you feeling ok? You want proof for every second word I type? Syria invading Lebanon is kind of obvious. If you want proof grab a flight to your native land and ask people what they think of Syria's invasion... Insane

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BA
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RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Wed May 01, 2002 6:15 am

Marco,

I have been studying Lebanese history since my Elementary School years. I have several books in my room, and you have introduced to me some of the biggest false information I have ever heard. Not only that, but I visited Lebanon once during the war.

I am tired of arguing with your BS.

Regards

P.S. Don't bother replying to my post, because this is the last time I'll be checking this thread.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Guest

RE: This Whole Israel Thing

Wed May 01, 2002 6:44 am

You do all realise that in a democracy most people aren't governed by who they would choose. No matter how many times I vote for Mickey Mouse, I still get Kermit the toad!

How many Australians didn't vote for little Johny Howard? Over 50%.

:D



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