Guest

Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Mon May 06, 2002 5:45 pm

PM Ariel Sharon will give today President Bush a 103-page report entitled "The Involvement of Arafat, PA Senior Officials and Apparatuses in Terrorism against Israel, Corruption, and Crime".

Israeli minister Danny Naveh declared : "It is crystal clear from a reading of this report that Arafat cannot be a partner for peace, and as long as he is in the picture there is no chance for peace."

There's an article in the JERUSALEM POST : http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1020337092723

and in HAARETZ : http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=159898&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y


* * *


On Israel Radio this morning :

- IDF foils attempt by 2 Palestinians to infiltrate Israel from Gaza Strip; explosive belt found on one of the bodies

- IDF renews blockade on Tul Karm refugee camp amid warnings of terrorists planning attacks in Israel


...
 
Klaus
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RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Mon May 06, 2002 6:33 pm

Sharon has already fallen flat on his face with this campaign.

Toda, I´d be careful whose feet I´d kiss if I were you. This won´t get you anything but a sore tongue... Big grin
 
Guest

RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Mon May 06, 2002 6:35 pm

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is old news, discussed by many here (including yourself) on a thread that is now locked. Why are you trying to stir things up?

Just in case you've forgotten: the consensus was that even if the entire amount of EU aid went on arms (which is not the case, and no one is suggesting it is) it would be a drop in the ocean compared with the billions spent (by the US taxpayer) in the Israeli war machine.
 
Guest

RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Mon May 06, 2002 6:50 pm

Just in case you've forgotten: the consensus was that even if the entire amount of EU aid went on arms (which is not the case, and no one is suggesting it is) it would be a drop in the ocean compared with the billions spent (by the US taxpayer) in the Israeli war machine.


...which kind of "consensus"...?


To blow up children in a pizzeria and teens in a disco is NOT the definition of WAR.



* * * *


Sharon has already fallen flat on his face with this campaign.
That's nothing more than your personal advice... (or is it also a "consensus"...?)
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
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RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Mon May 06, 2002 7:32 pm

I'm sure they get money from everywhere. Where I live in London, there are about 4 Lebanese grocery stores and they all openly raise money for the Palestinian cause (using coin boxes). I don't doubt most of that money is spent on arms, seeing as the label on the boxes is 'please donate to help the Palestinian martyrs free themselves from Zionist occupation'. My friend translated it from Arabic into English for me, so that's what it actually said!

It would be interesting to see how much money the Palestinians get from donations etc.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Guest

RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Mon May 06, 2002 8:10 pm

'please donate to help the Palestinian martyrs free themselves from Zionist occupation'

yeah...if they think that by blowing up busses, restaurants and shopping malls they'll "succeed"...

This money is not meant to "free the Palestinians from Zionist occupation", but only to cause a maximum harm to a civil popultion ; terrorism has blocked the peace process and made for now impossible the creation of a Palestinian State...
 
Guest

RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Mon May 06, 2002 9:14 pm

Is Sharon well supported in Israel? Just wondering.

I am totally against terrorist tactics, but I have one question, hopefully some Israeli member can explain-why has Israel built settlements in what is nominally meant to be 'Palestinian Territory'?-surely every time a new settlement is built in such an area, you are just inciting more criticisms from people inside and outside the region?

Would it not have been better not to construct settlements in such sensitive areas?

Also, if Arafat has indeed been involved directly/indirectly in inciting/approving terrorist activities, then it is understandable that Israel does not want to talk to such a man-but, who else could the Israeli government negotiate peace with?

Those Palestinians that recognise any authority, only seem to recognise Arafat and no one else...without Arafat, what happens-anarchy??

Cheers
 
artsyman
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RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Mon May 06, 2002 9:35 pm

Sharon is not the best Prime Minister that Israel has ever had, but you tend to get a hardliner then a softie then a hardliner etc. Whatever the case, Arafat just claims that whomever is the Israeli prime minister at the time, is totally to blame for everything
Jeremy
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Mon May 06, 2002 9:37 pm

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is old news, discussed by many here (including yourself) on a thread that is now locked. Why are you trying to stir things up?

Amazing, when anyone posts something that's pro-Israel, SAS23, they're trying to "stir things up". But when someone likes you posts something derrogatory towards Israel or something that pro-Palestinian, you're somehow just getting the facts out. You're the biggest stirrer of the manuer on here in regards to this broad subject, SAS23, so you have no place to pick on anyone else.

Just in case you've forgotten: the consensus was that even if the entire amount of EU aid went on arms (which is not the case, and no one is suggesting it is) it would be a drop in the ocean compared with the billions spent (by the US taxpayer) in the Israeli war machine.

But as usual, you miss the whole point. This isn't comparing any money that idiot Arafat is getting in comparison to Israel, SAS23. The U.S. doesn't hide or try to obfuscate it's aid to Israel-it's all out there for the world to see. But the PA is being deceitful in it's use of EU money, which I'm sure he EU isn't pleased with; he's hiding the fact that he's using this and other funds to plan terrorists attacks on Isarel, even though he's denied this time and time again.

In other words, your friends the PA are made up of a bunch of liars and two-faced people, who are still bent on destroying Israel. They haven't changed, and never will.

 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
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RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Mon May 06, 2002 9:39 pm

Alpha: is Israel openly using US money on weapons better than the PA covertly using EU money on weapons?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Guest

RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Mon May 06, 2002 10:29 pm

Most of the settlements were built on what was considered strategic locations which Israel would need to maintain. There are many small settlements which could be more or less easily evacuated. There were also some settlements built in the Sinai, and they didn't constitute an obstacle to the peace treaty... The Begin gvt had decided in 1978 to transform the biggest of these settlements, Yamit, into a 100'000 inhabitants city ; in 1982, however, the Sinai was entirely handed over to Egypt, and...Sharon ordered Yamit's evacuation.

The settlements were perhaps not a great idea, especially the ones in Gaza..., but there's one point which shouldn't be forgotten : what would have been the situation without them?
Take the example of the Sinai : after the 1956 Suez campaign, the UN and the US pressured Israel to withdraw from the peninsula, and it was evacuated in 1957 against international garantees (demilitarization and UN "peacekeeping" force ; free navigation for Israeli and Israel-bound ships in the Suez canal ). The result came 10 years later : Nasser closed the Red Sea and the canal and entered the Sinai with his army. As soon as he had requested the UN "peacekeeping" troops to quit...they abandoned their "peacekeeping" mission and fled... Of course, after the Six Day war, the UN ordered Israel to withdraw again...but that time, Israel refused, stating it would be ready to do so only in exchange for a real peace treaty with Egypt, and not like in 1957 against a cease-fire and UN assurances...

With the WB, the situation is different, but a parallel can be drawn : if Israel hadn't built any settlement and had evacuated these territories...these regions would still be annexated to Jordan (which occupied them by war in 1948 and annexated them illegally in 1951 ; curiously, they were not called "the occupied territories", and the world accepted the illegal annexation of territories...by force...Even today, on most maps, the WB is in the same color as Jordan).
And what would be the PLO officially claiming today? - the same territories they were claiming when the organization was founded in 1964 : Israel in its pre-1967 borders...


BTW...the settlements are clearly not the main obstacle to a peace accord between the Palestinians and Israel ; ideed, PM Barak was ready to dismantle most of them in 2000, with the exception of the biggest "blocs" ; the Palestinians accepted this proposal, including an (unnecessary...) pre-1967 land offer in the northern Negev.
 
Guest

RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Mon May 06, 2002 10:36 pm

Civilian targets are seen as being fair targets of all liberation groups - look at the IRA, ETA, ANC, Mau-Mau, ZIPRA, ZANLA etc. If Israel pulls out of its illegally occupied territories then it will occupy the moral high ground if it's attacked - otherwise the rest of the world will continue to see them as fascist oppressors.

Arafat got on very well with Rabin - he was a man that could genuinely have brought peace to the region. However, the hawks in the Israeli security establishment recognised that - and had him murdered.

Sanctions against Israel NOW!
 
Guest

RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Mon May 06, 2002 10:56 pm

Barak went much further than to what Rabin was ready to go...and yet Arafat refused even to accept the proposal as a base for negatiations...


Civilian targets are seen as being fair targets of all liberation groups.....


If FOR YOU it is FAIR to massacre hundreds of innocent human beings, to blow up restaurants full of children or discos full of youngsters...then this alone says it all about the values you're defending....
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
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RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Mon May 06, 2002 11:23 pm

Alpha: is Israel openly using US money on weapons better than the PA covertly using EU money on weapons?

Yes, for God's sake-are you telling me you support being deceitful and being liars, as the PA is being here? If you are, you have no reservations about which side you're on. If they're using the EU's funds in a way in which the EU didn't intend it for, then they're lying thorugh their teeth. If they publically state they're not supporting the suicide missions, but in reality, they're funding them to the hilt, then they're a pack of liars. Israel and the U.S. tell you up front that much of the money to Israel is for defense, yet the EU has to lie and scheme to to in private what they deny in public.
 
777236ER
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Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Mon May 06, 2002 11:28 pm

Alpha, I don't think anyone doubted that the PA was supporting the suicide attacks, which is why I don't think the EU should support the PA. Support the Palestinian people by all means, but through the UN, UNICEF, Red Cross etc.

My point is, both the EU and the US fund the war in the middle east. Is this justified?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Mon May 06, 2002 11:36 pm

My point is, both the EU and the US fund the war in the middle east. Is this justified?

I think the US's support of Israel is justified, yes. But my point has been that the EU obviously did not want it's funds being used to fund the war against Israel, despite all the anti-Israel rhetoric that comes out of Europe these days. I think the EU is probably appalled that their money may have gone towards funding suicide bombers. And they have a right to be indignant about that.

I'm sure people like SAS23 don't mind that kind of funding at all, but I suspect that many in Europe are not happy about this situation, if it is indeed corroborated.
 
777236ER
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RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Mon May 06, 2002 11:38 pm

I'm very angry about MY money going to fund suicide bombers, but I'd be angry that my money was going to fund any war that wasn't really related to me, to be honest.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Klaus
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RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Mon May 06, 2002 11:41 pm

And here we go again...

We all know that tired mudslinging routine... Could we just pretend that we´re through that part of the show and come to some exchange of new or at least moderately interesting arguments?
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Mon May 06, 2002 11:44 pm

77236ER, in the light of Sept 11-and I'm sorry if some of you don't like Americans bringing it back up-but I have no problem in the light of what happened to us with backing Israel whole-heartedly IN THE FIGHT AGAINST TERRORISM.

There is a difference between backing Israel's fight against continuing terror against it's people, but at the same time, pushing Israel towards policies that will be more constructive to peace-like dismantling settlements, and possibly giving up land for peace. But what keeps getting passed up by all those on here who want Isarel's head is this fact: if the Arabs and Palestinians would just stop the violence, and work for peace, you wouldn't have to worry about Israel using its military against "innocent civilians".
 
Scorpio
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RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Mon May 06, 2002 11:45 pm

Alpha 1,

After having read most of your posts on this subject, in pretty much every thread (and there have been many) I have often needed to restrain myself to not answer, because I would like to keep my username.

I would like you to answer this question for me: Do you believe that, like in almost all conflicts, both parties are partly to blame, or do you believe this is the fault of only one party, making the other completely innocent?
 
777236ER
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RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Mon May 06, 2002 11:51 pm

Alpha, the US supported Israel long before the self-proclaimed "war against terrorism". Frankly, there are a lot more problems in my own country for me to support one side against another on dubious reasons.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Guest

RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Tue May 07, 2002 12:18 am

FOR THE CURRENT VIOLENCE, ARAFAT is entirely to blame ! In Camp David and Taba in 2000, then PM Barak had offered Arafat much more than any Israeli or world politician would have ever thought about... : an independant State on 95% of the WB and 100% of the GS, with East Jerusalem as its capital, including the Temple Mount ; 3% of pre-1967 Israeli territory in the northern Negev in "compensation" for the three settlements blocs which were to be annexated to Israel ; all the other settlements would have been dismantled ; the "right of return" for many dozen thousands people, and an illimited immigration to the newly formed State.

In short...Arafat received EVERYTHING he was claiming since the beginning of the peace process.

During 7 years, the Israeli left, the Europeans, the Clinton administrations, the Russians...the whole world tried to "explain" that IF a Palestinian State was created on most of the WB and GS, and IF Jerusalem was shared, and IF some refugees were allowed in Israel, and IF most settlements were dimantled..........THEN there would for sure be PEACE....

But Arafat was not interested to end the conflict...; instead, he initiated the current wave of Palestinian terrorism. His own "minister" of Information publicly declared that Arafat had DECIDED to start the riots immediately after leaving Camp David.





Had Arafat accepted the plan, Sharon wouldn't have been elected...Nobody in Israel ever thought Sharon would become PM...Arafat is the one who made his election possible!
 
roguetrader
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RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Tue May 07, 2002 12:24 am

Frankly, there are a lot more problems in my own country for me to support one side against another on dubious reasons.

The same is true in the USA, there are countless problems at home that Israel's supporters think are less important than Israel. There will be at least 12-15,000 people murdered this year in the US for instance. American kids rank near the bottom of industrialized nations in science tests. There are at least 1 million homeless people in America. The government (and the US people) are in billions of dollars worth of debt.

Furthermore, what makes the Israeli lobby even more clever is to realize that for most of recent history, the US government was operating in a deficit situation. So, the Israelis somehow managed to convince the American government that it needed to borrow money to send to Israel. Even today, when the US could be paying down its debt, it sends money to Israel.

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
tbar220
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RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Tue May 07, 2002 1:13 am

I don't think anyone doubted that the PA was supporting the suicide attacks

Oh I dunno, a lot of people on the threads here just love to doubt that the PA ever did anything wrong. And even if they do accept that the PA did something wrong, they'll continue to defend their actions. Its pretty disturbing sometimes.
NO URLS in signature
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Tue May 07, 2002 1:35 am

I would like you to answer this question for me: Do you believe that, like in almost all conflicts, both parties are partly to blame, or do you believe this is the fault of only one party, making the other completely innocent?

Absolutely both parties are to blame, and if you had even bothered reading all I have written on this, you would already know that. In almost ANY conflict, there is blame to go around.

On the Palestinian/Arab side, it is the unwillingness, with the two exceptions of Egypt and Jordan, to discuss peace with Isarel. It is also the Arabs unwillingness to catagorically condemn attacks of terror against Israel.

On the Israeli side, it is the maddening way they are constantly putting settlements in areas they know will be controversial. It's also the way they tend to play too much to the Orthodox Jewish vote in Israel, which is as guilty as the Arabs are in not wanting to discuss peace.

As for keeping your user name, if you're getting that angry, it's better you not respond. I think on that count you need to chill a little.

On th
 
Alpha 1
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Scorpio

Tue May 07, 2002 1:39 am

One addition, Scorpio-for the current flare-up in violence, the Palestinian side takes all the blame. The resumption-no, that's the wrong word-the escalation of suicide attacks, at a time when the PA and Israel were discussing security issues, and at a time when Saudi Arabia was floating a peace plan-and at a time when Israel was NOT using any military action in Occupied areas, indicates to me that this escalation was a deliberate attempt to undermine further peace talks.

If you're talking this whole mess, over a period of years, you are correct-both sides are to blame.
 
Scorpio
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RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Tue May 07, 2002 3:58 am

Alpha 1,

Your response appears to be quite balanced and realistic, which is quite contrary to what a majority of your posts here seem to suggest, i.e. that of you being a hardline Israel backer, blaming the Palestinians for everything. Just so that you know, I have the feeling that is the reputation you have on these forums, which is partly why you seem to attract so much flack.

But again, your overall view on the situation seems to be fair and balanced, and I mostly agree with it.
 
Guest

RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Tue May 07, 2002 4:58 am

Why on earth should the Americans support the fascist State of Israel? What exactly do they get for their trillions of dollars that - as RogueTrader correctly identified, could have been better used for paying down its national debt or improving conditions at home?

Remember, this is the country that has spied on the US; that has attacked a US naval vessel and killed and wounded US servicemen; and has indirectly been the root cause of the attacks of the 11th September.

If the Zionist lobby was taken out of the equation, I very much doubt that the US would give a cent to Israel - and rightly so.

Sanctions against Israel NOW!
 
Guest

RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Tue May 07, 2002 5:42 am

FOR THE CURRENT VIOLENCE, ARAFAT is entirely to blame

and in one statement we understand why peace will never be achieved in the middle east.



VH-ADG
 
Alpha 1
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Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Tue May 07, 2002 5:51 am

Why on earth should the Americans support the fascist State of Israel?

FOR CHRIST'S SAKE, WILL YOU STOP THIS IDIOCY YOU KEEP PUTTING ON HERE!!! You are making a fool of yourself!!! God God Almighty!

Remember, this is the country that has spied on the US; that has attacked a US naval vessel and killed and wounded US servicemen; and has indirectly been the root cause of the attacks of the 11th September.

Every nation spies on every other nation, son. Does that mean the U.S. should stop being friends with everyone else too? They apologiezed for the attack, so much for that. And you tell me how the f**k Israel was responsible in any way for September 11th. You're looking more foolish by the minute.

Sanctions against Israel NOW!

Delete SAS23, the flamebaiter NOW!!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Tue May 07, 2002 5:52 am

and in one statement we understand why peace will never be achieved in the middle east.

Yes, you're right ADG-and that's because the Arab/Palestinian will never work for peace. Thanksf or agreeing with me.  Wink/being sarcastic
 
roguetrader
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RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Tue May 07, 2002 7:18 am

Alpha 1 says:
you tell me how the f**k Israel was responsible in any way for September 11th. You're looking more foolish by the minute.

I guess most of the American public looks equally as foolish:

Fifty-eight percent of those polled say America's relationship with Israel is a big reason terrorists attacked the United States on Sept. 11

---Newsweek October 6, 2001

Other sources agree:

U.S. support for Israel brings universal condemnation and repeatedly is presented as one of the causes of the Sept. 11 attacks

---The Denver Post, March 3, 2002 Sunday

Israel is the cause of the September 11 attacks on America

---The Guardian (London) November 2, 2001

obvious that a significant cause of the Arab and Muslim rage that precipitated the Sept. 11 attacks was the increasing tilt toward Israel in U.S. policy.

---The Baltimore Sun October 26, 2001 Friday

Washington's support for Israel, is seen as one of the causes of the hatred that bred the September 11 atrocities in the United States.

---Agence France Presse October 16, 2001 Tuesday


Its obvious that many in the Middle East are angry at the USA and that this anger helped launch the terrorisism of September 11th. The primary reason they are angry at the USA, according to both themselves and outside analysts, is American support of Israel.

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
Guest

RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Tue May 07, 2002 7:28 am

Alpha 1, would you kindly tell us exactly what benefit the US gets from the trillions of dollars spent propping up fascist Israeli governments and providing highly sophisticated weapons to kill people armed, at best, with AK47s and sticks of dynamite?

Comprehensive sanctions against Israel NOW!

 
Klaus
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SAS23

Tue May 07, 2002 8:33 am

SAS23, don´t you think your insistence on the Israeli government being "fascist" is a little overdone?

There´s plenty to criticize about Sharon´s ideas or other policy issues. I don´t get what calling the country "fascist" would achieve except heating up the debate. (As if it needed that...) I´ve already said that I disagree and repetition won´t change that.

It´s as pointless as constantly using similar epithets on the palestinians in general. It just distracts from the issues.

Please...  Smile
 
Guest

RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Tue May 07, 2002 8:43 am

The generally accepted definition of fascist is as follows:

Fascism is a form of extreme right-wing ideology that celebrates the nation or the race as an organic community transcending all other loyalties. It emphasizes a myth of national or racial rebirth after a period of decline or destruction. To this end, fascism calls for a "spiritual revolution" against signs of moral decay such as individualism and materialism, and seeks to purge "alien" forces and groups that threaten the organic community. Fascism tends to celebrate masculinity, youth, mystical unity, and the regenerative power of violence. Often, but not always, it promotes racial superiority doctrines, ethnic persecution, imperialist expansion, and genocide. At the same time, fascists may embrace a form of internationalism based on either racial or ideological solidarity across national boundaries. Usually fascism espouses open male supremacy, though sometimes it may also promote female solidarity and new opportunities for women of the privileged nation or race.

Fascism's approach to politics is both populist--in that it seeks to activate "the people" as a whole against perceived oppressors or enemies--and elitist--in that it treats the people's will as embodied in a select group, or often one supreme leader, from whom authority proceeds downward. Fascism seeks to organize a cadre-led mass movement in a drive to seize state power. It seeks to forcibly subordinate all spheres of society to its ideological vision of organic community, usually through a totalitarian state. Both as a movement and a regime, fascism uses mass organizations as a system of integration and control, and uses organized violence to suppress opposition, although the scale of violence varies widely.

Fascism is hostile to Marxism, liberalism, and conservatism, yet it borrows concepts and practices from all three. Fascism rejects the principles of class struggle and workers' internationalism as threats to national or racial unity, yet it often exploits real grievances against capitalists and landowners through ethnic scapegoating or radical-sounding conspiracy theories. Fascism rejects the liberal doctrines of individual autonomy and rights, political pluralism, and representative government, yet it advocates broad popular participation in politics and may use parliamentary channels in its drive to power. Its vision of a "new order" clashes with the conservative attachment to tradition-based institutions and hierarchies, yet fascism often romanticizes the past as inspiration for national rebirth.

Fascism has a complex relationship with established elites and the non-fascist right. It is never a mere puppet of the ruling class, but an autonomous movement with its own social base. In practice, fascism defends capitalism against instability and the left, but also pursues an agenda that sometimes clashes with capitalist interests in significant ways. There has been much cooperation, competition, and interaction between fascism and other sections of the right, producing various hybrid movements and regimes.

===

This describes the current Sharon regime to a 'T'. If the Zionist lobby stop describing the Palestinians as 'terrorists' then I won't call the Israelis fascists, ok?  Big grin

Comprehensive sanctions against Israel NOW!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Tue May 07, 2002 9:27 am

And Israel is not Fascists, except to radical minds like yours SAS23 whose sole desire is the destruction of Israel. I'm amazed that it's allowed to keep going on over and over and over and over again like this. It's meant to inspire more disension and division on here, and it's working, that's for sure.

The pity is that you actually believe what you're saying SAS23. It sounds like something out of the days of the Third Reich, and that's frightening-very frightening. I find it utterly disgusting and barbaric.

If there's to be any peace on here, I suggest that all decent members-on either side of this debate-ignore this fanatical language.
 
Klaus
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SAS23

Tue May 07, 2002 9:33 am

SAS23: This describes the current Sharon regime to a 'T'.

No, it doesn´t. For starters, Sharon is still democratically elected. And the concept of free and fair elections is alien to a fascist regime.

As I´ve said before: There may be punctual similarities; But I don´t see evidence substantial enough to call Israel a fascist country. Not by far.

Apart from diverting from an argumentative discussion I don´t see anything your accusation could achieve.

SAS23: If the Zionist lobby stop describing the Palestinians as 'terrorists' then I won't call the Israelis fascists, ok?

That´s exactly how the palestine conflict "works": Request something you know you won´t get and then blame the other side. Don´t you think you can do better than that?
 
Alpha 1
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Klaus

Tue May 07, 2002 9:47 am

Klaus,despite our tussle on the other thread, I concur with you on this one. Well said.
 
Klaus
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Alpha 1

Tue May 07, 2002 10:11 am

Alpha 1: Klaus,despite our tussle on the other thread, I concur with you on this one. Well said.

Thank you. (Let´s enjoy this while it lasts...  Big thumbs up)
 
Guest

RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Tue May 07, 2002 4:12 pm

FOR THE CURRENT VIOLENCE, ARAFAT is entirely to blame

and in one statement we understand why peace will never be achieved in the middle east.




- Indeed, ADG...And if the first sentence hasn't yet convinced you, just read the WHOLE post...then everybody can be able to understand why peace will never be achieved in the middle east...


But FACTS are always difficult to SEE...


* * *


Anyway, peace in YOUR acception will never be achieved as long as Israel exists... You said it, weirdly explaining that Israel should be "removed". In these conditions, your opinions on the feasability of peace in the ME are not too relevant...
 
Guest

RE: Israeli Gvt:EU Money Was Used For Terror By Arafat

Tue May 07, 2002 4:45 pm

Klaus, both Mussolini and Hitler were democratically elected as well (and enjoyed huge popular support) - are you saying that they were not really fascists?

Ariel Sharon is an extreme right winger, whose policies towards the Palestinians are nearly identical to those of the Nazis against the Jews. The only thing that the Israelis have not (yet) done is murder Palestinians in gas chambers - they just deny them basic rights; make them carry documents identifying them as Palestinians rather than Israelis - despite their assertion that Palestine will never exist; shoot them, bulldoze and blow up their houses, streets and villiages; and herd them into 'refugee' camps.

Sounds familiar?

Comprehensive sanctions against Israel NOW!
 
Klaus
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SAS23

Tue May 07, 2002 7:47 pm

SAS23: Klaus, both Mussolini and Hitler were democratically elected as well (and enjoyed huge popular support) - are you saying that they were not really fascists?

Hitler didn´t exactly win by a landslide. And he only got there through massive intimidation with his SA troops, propaganda support from a nazi-oriented newspaper mogul and a political alliance with the conservative parties who believed they could "handle" him. All that on the background of a desperate (even if slowly recovering) economic situation caused by world war I, massive reparations imposed by the allies and the global depression.

And it´s kind of interesting to see how Hitler´s "popularity" in the elections "grew" after he had the competing parties banned...

Things aren´t quite as simple as some people think.


SAS23: Ariel Sharon is an extreme right winger, whose policies towards the Palestinians are nearly identical to those of the Nazis against the Jews.

Even if I refuse the term "nearly identical", you´d find similarly inclined people in many countries, even in high ranks of government. They still can´t usually turn the entire country into a fascist state, even if they would like to. And I don´t see israelis supporting such a coup. They´ve elected a general, not a dictator.

Bad enough, but still a huge difference.


SAS23: The only thing that the Israelis have not (yet) done is murder Palestinians in gas chambers - they just deny them basic rights; make them carry documents identifying them as Palestinians rather than Israelis - despite their assertion that Palestine will never exist; shoot them, bulldoze and blow up their houses, streets and villiages; and herd them into 'refugee' camps.

There´s a huge difference in the extent of the discrimination - although I won´t dispute that there are injustice, discrimination and oppression. (Which can´t cancel out or justify terrorist attacks, though.)

The jews in pre-war Germany didn´t even threaten the state or their fellow citizens and were still murdered. At least some palestinians, however, have chosen to attack israeli civilians. We can discuss a proper israeli response to that; But the terror attacks still are a severe mistake on the participating palestinians´ part, in my opinion.

I think the existing similarities should be enough to give the israelis nightmares (well, additional nightmares  Sad); But they are certainly insufficient to call the entire country "fascist".

That would render the term useless.

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