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Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Sun May 12, 2002 1:54 am

First of all, my original post has been deleted, due to the 'copyright' rule on this forum, which I personally think it's weird.

Anyways, A 17y/o gay high school grad (in Oshawa, Ontario)won the lawsuit against the Catholic school board for bringing his bf to the prom on Friday.

Catholic School Board's lawyer has quote they'll keep fighting for their own rights.

The judge ruling said that the Catholic School Board has violated human rights of Marc Hall, and quote "Marc Hall is a Roman Catholic who just want to be himself."

Catholic School Board is dissapointed with the ruling, and asking "Then where's our rights?"

Although the 1st roung of lawsuit has settled down, but the 2nd round is expected to begin soon. The 2nd roung will involve whether the Catholic School Board has the rights to do everything that they want to and should practice.


One of the controversy includes:
should a public-funded Catholic school obey the law, because they're public;

Catholic Schools are now complaining that they can't do anything that they want.


By the way, I didn't read the replies last night, so, if you want to post it again, welcome  Smile
 
Marco
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Sun May 12, 2002 2:04 am

The school is a Catholic private one.

Catholics do not accept homosexuality.

He can attend another school that does accept him, but as long as he's in a private school he has to abide by the rules.

Anyways it's been done now...
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
b747ca
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Sun May 12, 2002 2:10 am

Marco, the Catholic system in Ontario is no longer considered private as it is now fully funded by the provincial government. Although some rules still apply ie. uniform and mandatory religion classes.

Other than that there is no difference.
ma va funk ulo
 
watewate
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Sun May 12, 2002 2:41 am

This thing has turned out to be the biggest media stunt in a long time. They had a chopper trail the guy's limo to the prom; a little extra, don't you think?
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Sun May 12, 2002 7:28 am

Good for him. If it upsets some closed-minded people I'm all for it.
Next up: STL-OAK-RNO-LAS-ICT-STL
 
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yyz717
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Sun May 12, 2002 8:11 am

What's so utterly ridiculous about this is the double standard.

For instance, birth control is also against RC teachings. So why didn't this school board also ban RC children from attending school if their parents performed birth control? Since there are hardly any 12- or 15-children families anymore, probably all RC families would be banned and the schools would be empty.

But gays are in the minority and easily picked on I guess.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
blink182
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Sun May 12, 2002 9:55 am

Why is it their business? It is a personal choice of his on who to bring to the prom. If he wants to bring his BF to the prom, go ahead and let him.

blink
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
TurbineBeaver
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Sun May 12, 2002 9:58 am

While we're talking about prom.

Wasn't there some guy on here whom we all voted for to go to Prom with his local DJ? And he won? Well buddy, how was the date with her?

TB
 
DC10Tony
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Sun May 12, 2002 10:31 am

So, which guy wore the dress...?

LOL
 
serge
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Sun May 12, 2002 12:09 pm

I agree entirely with OzarkD9S.  Big thumbs up

...Serge
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Sun May 12, 2002 12:15 pm

sege: you made my respected users list
Next up: STL-OAK-RNO-LAS-ICT-STL
 
captaingomes
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Sun May 12, 2002 1:21 pm

I'm not anti-gay. Heck, I was a male flight attendant for a while, so I can't be that bad! In any case, I have to disagree with you all here, in that it is a catholic school board, and they have their standards, whether they are close minded or not. All he is doing is trying to get all the attention and spotlight on him, and I don't like that. If he's in a catholic school, there are "standards" to be followed, and that's it. If he doesn't fit the "mould" which they so adamently fight for, then he is not in the right place.

Again, I'm not anti gay (leaves more women for straight guys, and lesbianism takes care of a lot of butch girls too!!!), but some institutions have their way of doing things, and we should not try to destroy them as individuals, because as an individual, he is going agaisnt what a large group of other individuals in this same institution believe in. And as such, this one individual getting HIS right, is destroying the rights of the majority of the other individuals in the same institution. That's not fair, and given all that, he can choose another institution which best fits HIS requirements. And that's why I'm against the ruling.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Pendrilsaint
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Sun May 12, 2002 1:38 pm

Lets look at the bigger issue lol , why in the heck is the government paying for a religious school? Does Canada not having a seperation of church and state?
 
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yyz717
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Sun May 12, 2002 2:56 pm

Nuno, I disagree with you.

That Catholic school board is funded by ALL taxpayers, most of whom in Ontario are not Catholic. As a Protestant, I have no problem funding Catholic schools (which must admit non-Catholics anyway).

However, I don't see why I, as a Protestant, should fund Catholic discrimination & prejudices. If this RC school was fully self-funding....then they would have a stronger case for pushing their exclusion.....but when they are publicly funded, they must adhere to society's norms of non-discrimination.

The school board's treatment of this student is/was barbaric.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Marco
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Sun May 12, 2002 5:07 pm

YYZ717,

I did know that they are funded by the tax payers. I guess then they aren't really private and they have to follow the rules, like everyone else!

I agree with you, as a Baptist, I would not like my money to go to Catholics, I do not agree with many of their teachings.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
Guest

RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 12:39 am

Pendrilsaint wrote: "Lets look at the bigger issue lol , why in the heck is the government paying for a religious school?"

The Ontario government is required to by Section 93 of the Canadian constitution. It was one of the terms of Ontario's being a founding province of Canada back in 1867.

Changing the constitution is a difficult and often controversial process, so Section 93 will probably remain intact into the foreseeable future.

As far as the wider issue goes: Twenty years from now, people will look back on 2002 and wonder, "What was the big deal?" Much in the same way as people in the '70s and '80s were looking back on the absurdities of the '50s and '60s, when contraceptives were illegal in places and network censors even forbade the word 'pregnant' from being used on the air.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 12:56 am

While the arguments posted are all valid, and they diminish those of the catholic school board, I still think that being a catholic school, they should have the right to have their own way of doing things. I'm not gay, I'm not religious, so I don't fall into any of the categories in the argument. However, I do also think that when one person's rights infringe on the rights of the majority in a group of people, and that one individual wins against most others, then something is wrong. Eventhough the catholic school board is publicly funded, as per the Constitution as stated by Mcdougald, they are still a seperate entity and should have the power to make certain rules and procedures. I do think there is a valid case here, and as this goes further, it will be interesting to see the outcome. If most people support the action of letting gay couples go to school functions such as the prom, then I'm alright with it. But if one student is going to do something his way, which is against the ways of the majority of others, then that's wrong.

hehehe, I await all of your friendly replies  Smile
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Hepkat
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 1:42 am

Captaingomes, your reasoning would only apply to the U.S. where Catholic schools are a separate ideological and funded entity and therefore have the right to define their own standards. The fact that Ontario Catholic schools accept public funding makes them automatically accountable to public ideals and norms. However, were they privately funded then I would have to agree that they should have every right to refuse this student from bringing his boyfriend. You can't confuse the two issues. Their being publicly funded puts them in the same category as any other public school, which overrides their right to make school policy based on their own religious principles.

No one's saying they're not allowed to operate within their own Cathlic beliefs, but they'd have to stop accepting public funds, which up till now they have not expressed an interest in doing.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 1:53 am

Well said Hepkat. This RC school board wants the 'best' of both worlds: public funding but the right to discriminate.

The school board is also being selective in which Catholic teachings it's supporting. It's making an issue of homosexuality but ironically, why isn't it making an issue of birth control? .......If the school banned all students who used (or whose parents used) BC, the school would be empty; they'd have to ban everyone. So they leave BC alone. So they pick on a gay student...because they can. The student body is absolutely, completely supportive of Marc Hall.

Discriminatory treatment by the RC church hierarchy such as this is just driving more & more Ontario RC's away from the RC church.





I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 2:47 am

The publicly funded aspect of course is the catholic board's problem. However, this raises the question ... eventhough an entity is publicly funded, does that not give them the right to have their own way of doing things? (Unless of course they are illegal). If a catholic school board does not have the right to follow the catholic beliefs, then that undermines its whole existence, even with the Constitution saying so. The time will come when gay relationships are accepted by the church, and at that point, the catholic board would not have any reason to object to gay couples going to the prom. The same way that the church has become more relaxed with birth control, in time will it also become that way with gay couples I think. But until then, it should not be an outsiders beliefs which should govern the way the catholic school board does things. Again, I'm not religious, and do not have a problem with this fellow and his relationship.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Hepkat
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 2:59 am

However, this raises the question ... eventhough an entity is publicly funded, does that not give them the right to have their own way of doing things?

In short, the answer is no. Imagine what would happen if public institutions were allowed to discriminate!
 
captaingomes
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 3:08 am

Then it must be discriminitory for a student to go to a catholic school and be forced to take religion classes.

I don't think that given the so called "morals" and "beliefs" which the catholic religion goes by, that they are discriminating against this gay couple. However, I do not like the attitude where they were going to stop the prom, etc etc, just to stop this from happening. That is wrong, and an uncalled for attitude.

My problem is really a matter of people outside the catholic religion and catholic schools for the most part wanting to tell the catholic school what to do just because they are publicly funded, and I think that is wrong. Something like accepting gay couples at a prom at a catholic school should be a more thought, and should I say "beaurocratic" process in order to achieve what the majority of those in this entity deem to be right and acceptable. Otherwise, the catholic school board is nothing different than a public school board.

I'm not a lawyer, but shouldn't I get some sort of money from the board for arguing these points???  Big grin
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Hepkat
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 4:55 am

Captaingomes, with all due respect, I think you're still missing the point. In the U.S., no one can tell Catholic Schools what to do because they're privately funded. If you go to a Catholic School in the U.S., you know exactly what you're getting yourself into, mainly an institution which abides by Catholic teaching. You have no right to be homosexual, etc., but every right to go to a public school if you don't agree.

See the difference?
 
captaingomes
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 6:53 am

Hepkat, I did aknowledge that difference, and I did say that it is the reason for the board's problems, but in the end, it is outsiders who are admitedly publicly supporting the board who are governing the catholic school board and not letting it go about its business in its own, law abiding ways. I do understand that point, but there shouldn't be so much outside interference with this entity just because outsiders think some way that is differently than this entity. It is because of the Constitution that they are publicly funded (and I'm sure they enjoy the money), but does that mean that they can't do things their own way without outsiders budding their noses? It sounds discriminatory, but in the end Catholic school boards are there to serve Catholics, even if funded by everybody. It's one of the quirks of Canada's Constitution, and from my understanding, one of those things which Canada "gave in" to the French. I forget exactly what the link is, but it does have something to do with the French. I'm sure Neil will fill in the blanks!!!  Smile Too me, that is not enough reason to justify everybody telling them what to do, even if they have no part of the Catholic school board.

I whole heartedly believe in individual rights, but group rights are going down the drain. A decision such as this and such a precedent with the ruling, should be something that is more well thought out, and a process which takes into account many factors.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
captaingomes
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 6:56 am

Another thing is, this guy has the right to go to a public school too. It is also publicly funded here in Canada (just like the Catholic school board). It should make little difference whether the school board is publicly funded or not. They should still have the right to think their own ways. They obviously have "customers" for their schools, and if people weren't happy, they'd change to Public schools.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Hepkat
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 7:16 am

I believe someone said it really well when they said it's as if they want to have their cake and eat it too. Either you don't accept public funding while having the freedom to institute your own private policies, or you accept public funding and abide by public policies. You simply can't have it both ways.

If the Catholic school system in Ontario wants to discriminate against gays according to their religious beliefs, fine, I have absolutely no problem with that. They had better do it with their own money, that's all.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 7:54 am

Then in that case, there is no difference between a Catholic school system and a public school system and it should be changed in the Constitution that they are not to be publicly funded. If they don't have the power to remain as a different and trully a "Catholic" system, and they have to abide by the rights of all other religions and non-religious alike, and they are required to fulfill the needs of everybody, even if they don't go to or don't have kids that go to Catholic schools, then society doesn't have a need for a Catholic school system. It should be merged with the public school system, and offer "religion" class to those who want to take it as a general credit.

Or then, if it is deemed that there is a need for Catholic schools in Canada (as per the Constitution anyways), then we as a society should not look to attack them for their views, however archaic they may be, and should look at the differences they provide, and how that fulfills the needs of the many people who attend Catholic schools. Why should the needs of those who do not attend the Catholic schools outweigh the needs of the majority of those who attend Catholic schools? That's what I don't understand, regardless of public funding or not.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
captaingomes
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UH OH

Mon May 13, 2002 7:57 am

I just looked at Hepkat's profile, and he's a forum moderator. Ok ok, I agree, it's publicly funded, and all gays should go to Catholic schools and go to proms together  Smile
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Hepkat
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 7:59 am

You had better agree!
 
captaingomes
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 8:27 am

LOL Hepkat ... ok, I'll agree to disagree.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
LufthansaUSA
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 8:27 am

Captaingomes-
As a Catholic I'd like to point out a few things:
1) The church has not relaxed its stance on birth control. Even after the Lambeth Conference in 1930(?)
at which the Anglican church decided to accept birth control, and was one of the last protestant denominations to do so, the Catholic chirch remained staunchly against the practice. Having said that, children of parents who used birth control are not banned by the Cahtolic church-The actions of the parents are sinful, but the children themselves are still loved and accepted as anyone else is.

2) The church is NOT going to re-evaluate its position on homosexuality. The church has existed for 2,000 years without bowing to the general public, and is not about to take orders from the public. The hierarchy of the Church is fully capable of making its own decisions, and the conservative nature of the Church means that there will be no reversal of church doctrine on homosexuality. Remember, the church does not descriminate against homosexuals. There are many Roman Catholic gays, even priests, and they are loved by Catholics unconditionally. However, homosexual practices ARE descriminated against, as they are contrary to the word of God and against Church teaching.

Hope this clears up the statements about Catholic Church policy.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 9:57 am

The student body at this high school was 100% behind the gay student. I wonder how many of these Catholic teens were totally offended by the school board decision? And may end up dropping their own RC identity in the process?????

The RC church no longer has a social strangle-hold on the 'masses' that it once did. Western Catholics are educated now & able to question church doctrine. If they don't like the answers, they may leave the church.

All churches need to bend with the times. Any church that does not support birth control, gay rights, abortion, divorce, women's rights, etc. is simply out of touch with the 21st century world. Churches can still support these rights and lead a moral tone without contradiction.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
LufthansaUSA
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 10:51 am

Yyz717
I'm going to make an assumption here, if I am wrong, forgive me. Let me guess: you are not a Roman Catholic. The prejudice against Roman Catholics is unbelievable. You make it sound as if the Catholic church is a cult, some evil force that seeks to control its members.
"Western Catholics are educated now & able to question church doctrine. If they don't like the answers, they may leave the church. "
Profound- you mean in the past Catholics were a)uneducated b)lacked the free will to leave the church and c)no other church loses members? What are you talking about? Do names such as Augustine, one of history's greatest writers, Thomas Aquinas, one of Europe's most important scholars mean nothing to you? Have you forgotten that it was Catholic monks that preserved books and knowledge during the Dark Ages? It was through monastery-run schools that European education entered its glorious phase, setting standards worldwide. How can you say Catholics were uneducated?
Of course some people question and leave the church-there has never been a time when the Church stopped people from leaving. Frankly, the way the media pretends Cahtolics are leaving the Church en masse is entirely untrue. Furthermore, the majority of Catholics DONT CARE if some people are leaving. Its their choice, we feel they are mistaken, but it doesnt alter the church's authority.
As for the fact that the school in question was "100% behind the student"-bullshit. I know enough people at my Catholic school to know that some students would not support this type of thing. Considering you do not go to this school, please explain how you have such inside knowledge? As for students "dropping their RC identity", these are not people who would contribute to the church anyway. If a question of school funding would drive students out of their religion, it is doubtful these same students ever had much faith. Considering that everyone I know is only stronger after the much greater issue of priest abuse, I feel confident that those who have faith will retain it, even through this ordeal.
Your final statement about church conformity left me laughing. Churches must "conform with the times"? Perhaps this conformity you speak of is why Prostestant churches have lost moral authority in the world. The more these churches blend with society to accept sinful things such as killing babies, denying children the right to form, and allowing people to conveniently avoid any sexual responsibility through divorce and contraception, the more they please the people, and the further they turn away from God.
The Catholic church, with all of our quaint ideas about the sanctity of human life,the permanence of marriage, and the sinfulness of homosexual behavior, is much the same as it was 2000 years ago. Somehow, this inspires more confidence in over a biliion of the world's people, while those who cant accept a religion that demands more than a feel-good approach to God turn to the small denominations of other churches. Somehow, the church hasnt needed to conform to remain a dominant force in the 21st century. Draw your own conclusions...
 
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yyz717
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 11:00 am

Actually, I'm Protestant. But that does not mean that I'm prejudiced against any Catholics. But I will criticize the RC church (or any church) when I feel like it. Like right now.

What do you think 'Protestant' means? It means we protest against popery and other less desirable (by our standards) aspects of RC teachings. Actually, I'm Anglican.....whose teachings are closer to the RC church than any other Protestant church actually.

I would argue that the only prejudice here is against that gay student. This is 2002 after all.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
LufthansaUSA
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 11:06 am

So, since its 2002, the church should give up its morals that are 2,000 years old, and still current...not likely.
Its not prejudice against gay kids anymore than saying that Catholics dont support murder, there are things that the church doesnt accept-one of them is homosexual activity.
 
Guest

RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 11:07 am

Captaingomes wrote: "I whole heartedly believe in individual rights, but group rights are going down the drain."

When the two come into conflict, group rights should take a back seat to individual rights. Individuals can be held accountable for what they do with their rights. Groups cannot, unless they're organised in such a way that there are a number of individuals (e.g., a corporation's board of directors) which is in a position to be held accountable.

Lufthansausa wrote: "The church has existed for 2,000 years without bowing to the general public, and is not about to take orders from the public."

But then, the problem the church faces is that many of its own followers among the public reciprocate by being equally unwilling to take orders from the church.

The Catholic church and the moderate Protestant churches do not have the intricate social networks that the Mormons and other groups have to enforce church teachings. The result is that to many people (including myself, as a passive Roman Catholic), official church positions on issues like contraception and homosexuality, although bluntly put, are still ignored by those who've already made up their minds. Even if the church threatened excommunication, it would mean little in a world where people often don't know which faiths their own friends belong to.
 
LufthansaUSA
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 11:16 am

Mcdougald-It is unfortunate that people like you don't listen to these "blunt" orders from the church. If you are unwilling to change your life to live in accordance with the church, how can you call yourself even a passive Catholic? What is the worth in pretending to be a Catholic? The church doesn's enforce its positions because it is not a tyrranical group-it accepts the fact that people will not listen. They feel that these people must therefore not care about the church, and that they will leave. It still is a mystery why those who don't listen to the Church call themselves Catholics-if anything it invites discrimination from the general populace.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 11:20 am

So Lufthansausa, if you're such a devout RC, are you willing to admit you're a virgin (since you're a teen, and I presume not married)? Are you willing to vow to never use birth control? Are you willing to multiply fruitfully when the time comes?



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
LufthansaUSA
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RE: Gay Students Finally Goes To The Prom With Bf

Mon May 13, 2002 11:26 am

Yyz717:
Yes
Yes
Yes
Whats the problem?

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