jm-airbus320
Posts: 294
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2000 2:49 am

Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Mon May 27, 2002 10:19 am

I just saw on BBC world, footage of Israeli soldiers terrorising a Palestinian man and were about to shoot him for back talking. I think the presence of the film crew saved him. Also, a 12yr old and her mom were blown up by an Israeli rocket as they fed sheep. The girl's 17 yr old sister vowed to be a suicide bomber to avenge her death.
Now with incidents like this occuring on a daily basis, I think its safe to say that this war will never end. Palestinians kill Israeli's, they return the favour. Both states are run by apparent blood loving men who have no sympathy for anyone. It's sickening that these men sit in their offices while they send idiots to go do their dirty work. I hope one day both of them will be tried for war crimes(seems as if that's the rage nowadays) as they are certainly responsible for the death of too many innocent people.

Jm-airbus320
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 3:35 pm

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Mon May 27, 2002 10:23 am

Interesting people in the Middle East are there not?
It is too bad the rest of the world has to suffer for their hatred of one another.
ClipperH
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
roguetrader
Posts: 1404
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:14 am

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Mon May 27, 2002 10:28 am

Jm-airbus320,

I agree with everything you've said. Both sides are cruel and see death of other humans as a mere political tool that they can use to further their goals. Their goals are largely to convince the rest of the world that their side is right.

I have to add to your post to say that I am personally burdened by the fact that part of every paycheck I earn is sent to Israel to kill Palestinians. As far as I know I have subsidized none of the murders of the 300 or so Israelis that have been killed in the last 18 months, while probably all of the 1200+ Palestinian deaths at the hands of the Israelis are financed by the dollars I involuntarily send to Israel.

Neither side in this conflict deserves support from anyone.

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Mon May 27, 2002 10:36 am

"As far as I know I have subsidized none of the murders of the 300 or so Israelis that have been killed in the last 18 months"

Think again. Guess who is paying 98% of the annual international support to the PA? I'll give you a hint, it's not the Arab states.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Mon May 27, 2002 10:47 am

I used to have sympathy for the Palestinian cause. I grew up believing that they deserved their own homeland, that in some way, history had robbed them of statehood and dignity. Then, on September 11th, I saw footage of a group of Palestinian women and children, chanting and dancing in the streets of Ramallah, at news that th US had been attacked. My view has hardened since that terrible day. It makes me sad and angry that the US government didn't respond to a threat with sufficient aptitude and did not take some steps to possibly prevent the attack. I also believe that US foreign policy abroad has at times been short-sighted, inappropriate, and not well thought out, but the viciousness of the attacks, on innocent civilians, cannot be condoned, cannot be excused, or explained away in the context of a centuries old hatred between Arab and Jew. My symphathy for the palestinian cause is now gone. While I blame both Israel and the Palestinians for the senseless violence that is an element of daily life in the region, I am also filled with sorrow and a strong sense of ambivalence and bitter hatred. It is a shame that a worthless scrap of land, mostly desert, is a root cause of the fear, anger, violence, and uncertainty that prevails in our world today. I am also grateful and proud to live in a modern, secular society, where progress, even if it is at times slow and clumsy, is the norm and where resistance to it is typically defined in the scope of intellectual discourse, not in random acts of senseless violence, in the name of a god. To me, such a response is hatred-filled, unacceptable, primitive, and beneath me.

So as the struggle goes on in the Holy Land, I can only shrug my shoulders and focus on my own survival. But I firmly believe that democracy, a strong belief in fate, and a rational intellect, will prevail.



 
roguetrader
Posts: 1404
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:14 am

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Mon May 27, 2002 10:50 am

LY744,

I thought mostly Europe was paying the Palestinians. Are you implying that America is financing both Israel and the Palestinians? If so that makes my position as an involuntary war financier even more ridiculous.

European Union countries have been the biggest financial backers of the Palestinian Authority
---CNN INTERNATIONAL, Q&A WITH ZAIN VERJEE 12:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, May 23, 2002

the EU has emerged as the strongest champion and chief financial supporter of the Palestinian Authority
---The Washington Post, May 22, 2002

I am aware that a small aid package to the Palestinians was proposed by the Bush White House: did this get finalized? In any event, what exactly are you trying to say, LY744?

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 3:35 pm

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Mon May 27, 2002 11:23 am

You are right RogueTrader...if your looking at a major money trail...it leads right to the heart of Europe. Also if you mention anti-semitism to a European, they hit the roof. One thing for sure though, the middle East is no more closer to peace than...well, I will leave it at that! No sense enraging a few old souls here.
ClipperH
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
kolobokman
Posts: 1112
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 5:32 am

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Mon May 27, 2002 11:29 am

Both sides are commiting attrocities there.
It is good to see that BBC shows its viwers both sides of the conflict.
What about CNN and other US news broadcastig systems? Do you see Palestinian side there?
I can neither confirm, nor deny above post
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Mon May 27, 2002 11:48 am

Both sides are indeed committing attrocities. But you have to remember that Israel offered peace to the PLO a few years ago...the PLO walked away at the last minute insisting on a 'right of return' by Palestinians to Israel proper. This would have swamped Israel with refugees.

Israel is also a democracy. The PLO is a brutal dictatorship.

Israel is acting no differently than any other Western nation would be if surrounded by enemies and outnumbered 50-1.

At any rate.....Rogue....if you disagree with your US govt supporting Israel, they are only doing it thru the acquiescence of the voting public, which includes you. You are free (as is any American) to influence the political decisions made by your local Congressman/woman and Senator. Sounds like you haven't tried this approach. Until you do, your inaction will only ensure that the US govt continues to support Israel at all costs.

Neil
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Mon May 27, 2002 11:54 am

if you disagree with your US govt supporting Israel, they are only doing it thru the acquiescence of the voting public

I'm afraid the U.S. citizen has no choice, as both political parties overwhelming support aid to Israel as a consequence of the Jewish lobby. Thanks to an influential minority, the American citizen is being held hostage to a religious ideology he/she has no part in.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Mon May 27, 2002 11:59 am

I agree with you Hepkat. Perhaps the correct approach is for Americans interested in an equal approach to the ME could lobby both the DEM's and GOP's in an equal manner. It would take some coordination, but anything is possible in a democracy.

While I generally am a suppporter of Israel, I agree that the Israeli lobby/influence in US govt circles to be far too strong. The American people CAN change this though.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
roguetrader
Posts: 1404
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:14 am

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Mon May 27, 2002 12:10 pm

Yyz717,

I do try to contact my Congress people on issues that are important to me. I contact them about 3 or 4 times a year. They say 'thank you' and promptly file my views in the trash, I'm sure. Believe it or not, I think that internet discussions like this further my opinions - as I believe that the frank disucssion among adults brings out the truth, and the truth is what I want revealed.

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
Guest

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Mon May 27, 2002 3:13 pm

the American citizen is being held hostage to a religious ideology he/she has no part in.

If you think that US aid to Israel is simply the result of some "religious ideology" most Americans don't ascribe to, haha, well then its no wonder your confused and frustrated.

Hint: It's just a tad more then that. You would like Israel to be insignificant and nothing. Fine, Israelis would too. They don't enjoy the coverage and the high standard they're held up too. But the US support of Israel and the western world's fascination with the conflict is rooted in something much more significant.

Theres a reason every American is familar with a place like the Sea of Gallilee-even though most states have lakes much larger. And its not because of US foreign aide.

What matters is the size that a country or people occupied in our western super-stories or collections of myths, ideolgical constructs, bound together by an overall popular narrative that stories help explain the world to outselves, to record our experiences, and shape our views. When looked that way, yes Israel becomes one of the most significant countries and news stories in the west and places like Nigeria, Sudan, and China become so small.

Think a little bit, before you rattle off your tongue Israel this, Israel that.

Oh, yeah and lastly, the US has given more money to the Palestinian Authority over 9 years than any other country in the world, ever. (The Economist: World Factbook 2001).

Get your facts straight kid or else you lose.

TNNH
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Mon May 27, 2002 6:04 pm

Perhaps the correct approach is for Americans interested in an equal approach to the ME could lobby both the DEM's and GOP's in an equal manner.

This is precisely the problem. Very few groups can match the Jewish lobby in terms of influence and affluence. Perhaps the only few are the NRA, which has other interests at hand, the religious right, who sides squarely with Israel (for religious purposes), and business/industrial lobbyists, who are too busy pushing forward their own concerns to really care.

What matters is the size that a country or people occupied in our western super-stories or collections of myths, ideolgical constructs, bound together by an overall popular narrative that stories help explain the world to outselves, to record our experiences, and shape our views.

And that's precisely what's called an ideology. Thanks for expounding my point.

Get your facts straight kid or else you lose.

Oh my, the proverbial pot calling the kettle black! Compared to you I can hardly be considered a kid, kid.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Mon May 27, 2002 10:00 pm

Hepkat, you reason like a terrorist. Shame on you.

True, the US needs to adopt a more balanced approach to the Middle East and play a little more fair with both sides, but the Jewish lobby in the US is only as powerful as that of any other group (e.g. Cuban-American, African-American, etc....) it is precisely that diversity that makes this country great and a refreshing alternative to the dozens of autocratic and illegitimate regimes that control the Middle East.

 
roguetrader
Posts: 1404
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:14 am

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Mon May 27, 2002 10:31 pm

Get your facts straight kid or else you lose

If that were true, Twaneedsnohelp, you would have 'lost' long ago. Your favorite tactic is to accuse others of posting 'false' facts, but when you are proven false yourself - which you always are - you, strangely, never respond. I'll spare us the review of the times I alone have had to prove false your accusations, but I have them available if you like...


I can't find any publication on the list of Economist publications titled 'The Economist: World Factbook 2001'

http://store.eiu.com/index.asp?layout=quick_search&search=fact+book&av_filter=&search_type=products&search_cmd=&searchType=all

Nor is something called 'The Economist: World Factbook 2001' mentioned in any major newspaper, magazine, or news broadcast in the last 20 years, as reported by LEXIS/NEXIS. see www.lexis.com

I did of course find numerous references to the truth, such as:

Israel, the largest recipient of US foreign aid,
The Sunday Herald, May 12, 2002 Pg. 17 (Scotland)

Israel is the largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid...
Knight Ridder Washington Bureau, May 7, 2002

Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid
Agence France Presse, May 2, 2002

[Israel receives] the largest slice of US overseas aid
The Times (London), April 23, 2002


If the US had given as you say more money to the Palestinian Authority over 9 years than any other country in the world, ever that would have been more money than Israel received in that time ($27 billion), and more than Israel has received in total ($70 billion plus), right? Where did all that money go? $27 billion doesn't buy more than a few guns and explosives these days?

The truth is of course that Israel has taken more from the US treasury than any other country in the history of the world except of course the United States. The benefits of having Israel as a 'friend' are negligible: note that the entire rest of the world doesn't need their deadly 'friendship'.

America pays for the killing of Palestinians almost every day. In return for this America has bought the hatred of the entire Middle East and turned itself into a terrorist target both at home and abroad.

kind regards,

RogueTrader

 
avi
Posts: 891
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 1:27 am

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Mon May 27, 2002 10:50 pm

Jm- I just saw on BBC world, footage of Israeli soldiers terrorising a Palestinian man and were about to shoot him for back talking. I think the presence of the film crew saved him. Also, a 12yr old and her mom were blown up by an Israeli rocket as they fed sheep. The girl's 17 yr old sister vowed to be a suicide bomber to avenge her death.

Did they show what happened in Israel too that day or wasn’t it important?
Long live the B747
 
roguetrader
Posts: 1404
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:14 am

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Mon May 27, 2002 11:28 pm

Avi,

Your concern about media stories proves my earlier post that both sides use murder as a political weapon largely to gain the favor of world opinion. The actual people killed mean nothing to you.

You have no argument that the Israel side was right to kill the Palestinians, you just are concerned what your press coverage is.

Based on the numbers of casualties, there should be 3 or 4 such stories showing murdered Palestinians for every one showing murdered Israelis.

Avi, on a slightly different topic, what friends in the world community does Israel have besides the USA? Turkey? Some outlaw African nations? Please advise.

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
Guest

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Mon May 27, 2002 11:30 pm

Yyz717 - If the Jews have a 'right of return' to Israel, why shouldn't the Palestinians - especially bearing in mind that it was their property that the Jews stole when they were carrying out their ethnic cleansing!

Hepkat - I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. How can a country call itself a democracy when in reality it is controlled not by its citizens but rather by 'special interest' lobby groups? That just makes it look like democracy is for sale!

TWAneedsnohelp - you said: What matters is the size that a country or people occupied in our western super-stories or collections of myths, ideolgical constructs, bound together by an overall popular narrative that stories help explain the world to outselves, to record our experiences, and shape our views. When looked that way, yes Israel becomes one of the most significant countries and news stories in the west and places like Nigeria, Sudan, and China become so small.

Would you mind terribly explaining what you meant (in English) as I don't understand it? Thanks!
 
roguetrader
Posts: 1404
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:14 am

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Mon May 27, 2002 11:42 pm

SAS23,

The USA is still a democracy insofar as its people do in fact elect their leaders. Its just that once they are elected, few people pay close attention to what they do anymore except the special interest groups. Part of the explanation is that for Americans government is not nearly as important as to Europeans or anyone else in the world. Government plays almost no role in our lives on a day to day basis, its not nearly the concern that it is for others in the world. I'm not defending this situation, just explaining it. I base this opinion on my observations of public conversations in Europe vs. the same in the USA.

Now as to what TWA was trying to say, I THINK he was trying to say that Israel has some special place in the heart of the world and especially in the hearts of its sole benefactor, the Americans. But, on the other hand I'm not entirely sure if thats what he meant.

kind regards,

RogueTrader

 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Tue May 28, 2002 2:25 am

For those anti-Palestinian because they were cheering after September 11th, you should think about the anti-globilasation protestors who started cheering in London after they heard the world trade centre was hit.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Tue May 28, 2002 2:30 am

Hepkat, you reason like a terrorist. Shame on you.

ContinentalEWR, please explain. If you meant that I refuse to swallow whatever the U.S. media and school system spoonfeeds me, then I'm proud to be an independent thinker and researcher. How sad it is, that everyone who does not run around agreeing with the status quo, and with Bush's black and white world, gets labelled terrorist. Do you even know what a terrorist is?
 
Guest

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Tue May 28, 2002 2:45 am

I seem to recall that the footage of the "Palestinian protestors" cheering following the attacks of the 11th September turned out to date back to the Gulf War ... and that they had originated from Israeli sources!

Remarkably convenient timing if true ... they must have been psychic!  Big grin
 
Guest

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Tue May 28, 2002 3:46 am

Of course, sas23, ANYthing negative to the Palestinians' image HAS to be a Zionist plot...

In another thread you stated that since Palestine never existed, "Israel was part of Transjordan"...
Here you state that the footage "turned out to date back to the Gulf war"...

As we can see, your fantasy has really no limits...
 
Guest

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Tue May 28, 2002 3:51 am

Hepkat..

And that's precisely what's called an ideology. Thanks for expounding my point.

Oh its an ideology, but its much more, its a structured belief ascribed too by hundreds of millions of people. It's a belief that runs our lives and helps us explain to ourselves who we are and why we do things. It's much more than an ideolgy its a central belief system to over hundreds of millions of people, jews, christrians, agnostics, and beyond. Not easily discountable.

Rogue..

Empty Rhetoric. Every year the Economist prints up a special edition. HINT: its got a shiny cover and a fancy name. Take a look for that one. Over 9 years, more than any other country in the world the United States has contributed more money and resources to the Palestinian people which is irrelevant to how much the US gives to Israel. So your assertion that your tax dollars are not supporting the death of those two Israelis this morning is ludicrous and comfortable in your naive worldview. Hunt some more.

SAS23...

I'm sorry you didn't comprehend the first time. Let me try to explain clearer. Our view of the world is dictated by something Israeli political theorist Yaran Ezrahi calls a "super story". Super stories are collections of myths and ideolgical constructs all bound together by an overall popular narrative. "Super stories" help explain the world to ourselves, to record our histories, to shape our morals, ethics, and views of the world. Religion is perhaps the greatest of the world's super stories along with political ideolgies, democracy, communism, capitalism, etc... And like it or not, the Bible and all it encompases, its lessons, its teachings, its charachters, is the largest most widely known super story in the western world and is a tremendous influence on how western men look at themselves and the world.

The Jews, the holy land, the ancient Israelites are the main charachters in this bible super story.

For this reason Israel is not forgotten or insignificant to western audiences as China, Sudan, or Indonesia are. News from Israel, the holy land is more understandable and attractive than news from other places because quite simply we are so familiar with the themes, the geography, the people.


They are repeated to us every sunday in church, we read them in our literature and we comtemplate them in our art. From Milton to Rembrandt we find biblical stories.

Israel plays a tremendous part in the western biblical super story and western audiences crave to hear more about it, how it develops, how it collapses. Physical size, and even to an extent, financial status is somewhat irrelevant in understanding why one country or one people gets exposure in the western news and why others don't. It all matters where it falls in the super story people ascribe to. For that reason, you won't hear about Israel or Palestine in Japan and China, its irrelevent to them. The bible and the Israelites and holy land has no special significance to them.

It's that simple guys.

TNNH
 
avi
Posts: 891
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 1:27 am

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Tue May 28, 2002 6:22 am

RT: Your concern about media stories proves my earlier post that both sides use murder as a political weapon largely to gain the favor of world opinion. The actual people killed mean nothing to you.

So RT, I guess I suppose to be very happy this evening because of the murder of an 18 months old baby.
Maybe I should be double happy because her 70 years old grandmother murdered too.
Or maybe I should be sad because the security officer prevented from this terrorist to enter the mall and murder not only 2 people outdoors but 20 people indoors.

You should take a look of yourself in the mirror.

You missed the sarcasm tone of my post (There is a reason why it was only one sentence long).

Based on the numbers of casualties, there should be 3 or 4 such stories showing murdered Palestinians for every one showing murdered Israelis.

So if a suicide bomber is caught or kills no one but himself (both happened last week) this is no news?
This is exactly what I’m talking about (and the BBC is very good about it).
I don’t think you know how many terror attacks were on Israel in the past week and no one was killed or injuered (did you hear about the bomb in Jerusalem today for example? Since it didn’t explode (a PA gardener found it) it’s not news. Right?)

Some outlaw African nations?

Do you want to expand on that one? (I don’t really mean you do, sarcasm again).
I’m not going to comment on that (and I do have an answer).

Long live the B747
 
Guest

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Tue May 28, 2002 6:48 am

Toda, perhaps you'd like to give a rundown of which countries the present Israel was part of then since you seem to think that my "fantasy has no limits"?  Nuts

TNNH - I'd be careful of that theory if I was you as if anything it goes against the Jews (who were responsible for the death of the Christian Messiah), rather than for them!

Avi - and I trust that you were equally concerned about the killings yesterday of a 12 year old girl and her mother; and the shootings a couple of weeks ago of a mother and her two and three year old children by the IDF?
 
Guest

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Tue May 28, 2002 7:59 am

TNNH - I'd be careful of that theory if I was you as if anything it goes against the Jews (who were responsible for the death of the Christian Messiah), rather than for them!

It has nothing to do with whether its for or against the Jews. Why do you always think in such a manner? The biblical super story is a global reality that provides a lot of answers to how the western world acts and perceives itself. Your a pretty odd guy for always trying to calculate things in and us versus them mentality. Whats wrong with you man?

tnnh
 
Guest

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Tue May 28, 2002 5:31 pm

Topic: RE: And Again:horror In Israel After A Suicide Bombing
Username: SAS23
Posted 2002-05-25 08:56:33 and read 240 times.

Sure, the Occutied Territories consist of land that was previously part of Egypt, Jordan and Syria (the Golan Heights) - but then Israel itself was part of Transjordan. It has already been agreed that there was no such country as Palestine (nor Israel for that matter) prior to 1948.

*

Toda, perhaps you'd like to give a rundown of which countries the present Israel was part of then since you seem to think that my "fantasy has no limits"?




To state that "Israel itself was part of Transjordan" makes absolutely no sense...! It is exclusively the product of your own fantasy...

Transjordan was a totally artificial kingdom created by GB for its own political interests, on more than 3/4 of the original British mandate territory.
The borders of this kingdom were the same as today, but during the 1948 war against Israel, Transjordan attacked the newly born State and occupied the territories which were meant to become the second Arab country in the former British mandate territory.
These territories were the "west bank" of the Jordan river, including Jerusalem's old city, from where the Jews were militarily expelled and their quarter devastated.

After the armistice in 1949, Transjordan annexated these territories and thus changed its name (!...) to "Jordan".

* * *

..."Israel itself was part of Transjordan"...



* * * * *



And you had a "question"...:

"perhaps you'd like to give a rundown of which countries the present Israel was part of then"


It was part of NO country ; and most surrounding countries didn't exist either at the beginning of the 20th century...including "Palestine"...
 
Guest

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Tue May 28, 2002 6:25 pm

Hmmmm, so Toda you are saying It was part of NO country ; and most surrounding countries didn't exist either at the beginning of the 20th century...including "Palestine"... that it was simply a hole in the ground? The State of Israel did not exist until 1948 ... even you will admit that - so what was the name of the territory prior to then?
 
Guest

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Tue May 28, 2002 6:49 pm

It was Transjordan, as you have brightly indicated in your post!

Everybody knows that it was Transjordan, it's a country with such a rich history; haven't you heard about the Transjordananians in your history lessons??!





And about the Ottoman empire?
 
Krushny
Posts: 756
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2000 4:22 am

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Tue May 28, 2002 7:02 pm

A little Latin lesson : when talking about territories "trans" means the other side while "cis" means this side, looking from Roman perspective . For example, "Gallia Cisalpina" were the territories that Gauls occupied south of the Alps (more or less current Piamonte and Lombardia) and "Gallia Transalpina" was a territory at the other side of the Alps, current France more or less.
Transjordan means east of the Jordan river, so the current Israel land could not be part of Transjordan.
The country that was formed last century chose to be named Jordan, as it had territories at both sides of the river (West Bank + Transjordan). Though after 1967 it only controls land east of the river...
 
Guest

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Tue May 28, 2002 7:29 pm

The country that was formed last century chose to be named Jordan, as it had territories at both sides of the river (West Bank + Transjordan). Though after 1967 it only controls land east of the river...


Great Latin lesson, but poor (or biased) history knowledge... :

The kingdom of Transjordan was formed by GB East of the Jordan river...NOT "at both sides of the river".

"The country that was formed last century" tried to destruct the newly independant State of Israel...and expanded by force (...) its territory on the West side of the Jordan river ; it then illegally annexated these zones and went so far to change its name in order to "fit" the new situation...
[[as I've clearly said in my last post...: Transjordan annexated these territories and thus changed its name (!...) to "Jordan".]]




* * *




BTW...the Arabs had then plenty of time (2 decades!) to create an "independant Palestinian State with East Jerusalem as its capital"...

but nothing at all was ever created... Confused how curious... Yeah sure
 
avi
Posts: 891
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 1:27 am

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Tue May 28, 2002 11:02 pm

SAS23: Hmmmm, so Toda you are saying It was part of NO country ; and most surrounding countries didn't exist either at the beginning of the 20th century...including "Palestine"... that it was simply a hole in the ground? The State of Israel did not exist until 1948 ... even you will admit that - so what was the name of the territory prior to then?

The place was named Palestine but it was not a country or a state (nor other places in the region). It was under British occupation (France in Lebanon and Syria) and before that Turkish occupation and before that ... and before that... and before that...


Long live the B747
 
Guest

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Tue May 28, 2002 11:06 pm

For centuries, it was part of the Ottoman empire, one of its remote provinces.

But according to SAS23, it was "Transjordan"...



* * *


 
Guest

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Wed May 29, 2002 12:19 am

Thank you for confirming what most of the civilised world has said for years - and which most of the A.net Zionist lobby have tried to deny. Israel did not exist prior to 1948 - there was not, and never has been, a secular Jewish state per se there. All that there was was a wandering tribe.

So what rights do the Jews have over the territory? Precious few - in fact they have about as much right to it as they would have had over Uganda, which was Lord Balfour's original proposal for a Zionist homeland.

Yet the Jews came to Palestine - mostly illegally - and proceded to ethnically cleanse the area through a concerted campaign of terror against Palestinian men, women and children leading to a Palestinian diaspora. They conducted a terror campaign against the British as well - targetting both military and civilians. Many of the leaders of those terrorist groups - Irgun and the Stern Gang - became senior members of subsequent Israeli governments; some even attaining the highest office in the land.

Given that the State of Israel was conceived in blood - largely Palestinian and British - and born in terror, is it at all strange that they are viewed in the manner that they are?
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Israel Vs Palestine......my View

Wed May 29, 2002 3:02 am

These Israel vs. Palestine threads have been getting really out of hand as of late. There are no less than 4 concurrent discussions on this issue, with new threads rearing their annoying little heads on a daily basis. In addition, we've been inundated with delete requests related to these threads; 83% of such requests I fielded today originated in Israel/Palestine threads. This issue has been discussed to death and the afterlife, with no new contributions being offered other than the same old intractable arguments, personal attacks, name-calling and flared tempers spiraling towards a bottomless abyss.

In the future, all Israel/Palestine topics will be limited to ONE discussion per human lifespan. Until the thread naturally dies out, no one may start another. Violations of this will be deleted without warning. Please bear in mind that in the end, this is the same standard expected of all other topics on A.Net.

Hopefully, the extra energy saved from not doing battle in meaningless Israel/Palestine discussions can be used to lead longer, more productive lives.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aesma, LittleFokker and 10 guests