FlyBoeing
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Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 11:55 am

A few days ago, I walked half a mile out to my car and found a slip of paper under the windshield. It looked like a ticket - and it was some sort of schlock put out by the anti-SUV crowd. They basically accused me of having been a slave to SUV advertising and pointed out how fuel-inefficient and unsafe my truck was.

Now if I pay the costs associated with driving such a vehicle, including the insurance and all the gasoline, is there any more inherent danger that I'm inflicting on society? Our family knew what it was getting into when we got the truck - we're willing to pay the costs, private and social, to ensure that in case of an accident, I survive. I make a choice - to drive the car which has utility to me. Who are the eco-freaks to tell me what my utility preferences are?

My second attack against the environmentalists is that they assume that we're all average drivers. Yes, my truck may be fuel-inefficient. But have they tested out how inefficient it is to drive at 120 mph the way Europeans do? Yes, my truck may be unsafe - but do they know exactly how I drive? I drive safely.

American fuel efficiency is going down the tubes. So what? Why should the preferences of other Americans govern my actions? It reveals that Americans are wealthier than ever and we can purchase - not take - more of the world's resources than any nation on earth. When did higher standards of living become a crime? Many Americans feel that their heart's desire was to own an SUV. Why should we stop them from that?

I have no problem with switching from an SUV to a smaller SUV - actually, I've decided that my next vehicle will be the Escape HEV - but the choice will be purely economic, not environmental.
 
L-188
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 11:58 am

Windshield flyers...LMAO....Those are something that the skinheads use to remain anonymous. That should tell you something about these people.

You know if those smucks are so pro environment they shouldn't litter.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
flyf15
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 12:10 pm

If you really have a use for your SUV and you bought it because of that, I don't see anything at all with buying them. But, the sad fact is that the vast majority of SUV drivers did not buy them because of their uses. Also, there seems to be a trend in SUV design to take all the real offroading capability out of them. Built on car frames with big tires and tall roofs, low ground clearance, 2 wheel drive, etc.

I constantly see enormus SUVs being driven around by yuppie women in their 40s with nobody else in the car, in the plains of america, in a city, in an SUV that will never go off pavement. In this situation I just can't help but ask what is going through their minds? Why throw away all that money to waste gas, have something much harder to drive, etc. Sure they might be safe, but do you all care about how much more dangerous you're making it for everyone else? Physics doesn't change just because you're a safe driver, accidents happen, and the more energy involved, theres going to be a greater chance of someone hurt or dying...could you live with yourself if you killed someone in a car crash because your bumper is higher than their hood? I couldn't. Another sad fact is that the trend seems to go in the direction of SUV drivers driving like they're in cars, or even sports cars. Erratically changing lanes, speeding, making sharp turns, etc. Its just not safe no matter how much status and security you think you have.

The majority of SUV owners just don't really seem to have a real need for one. Besides as a status or "compensation" symbol. You could buy quite a nice car (with what some SUVs cost these days) for the same price, and save money in the long run, have an easier drive each day, etc. In my neighborhood their are dozens of SUVs of all types and sizes, and I only know of two people who ever take theirs offroad or use them to their limits...both of the people owning Jeep Wranglers.
 
JetService
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 12:20 pm

I wonder how many trees those flyers killed!!!!!
"Shaddap you!"
 
prosa
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 12:21 pm

I have an SUV, an Isuzu Rodeo to be specific, and I am not ashamed of it in the least. Some points to consider:
1. The higher seating position provides excellent visibility.
2. Ingress and egress is much more convenient than with a regular vehicle.
3. Cargo-carrying capacity is very good, especially with the rear seat folded.
4. Fuel economy is not too bad, about 20 mpg in city driving.
5. It does not weigh much more than some larger automobiles, so I'm not putting other drivers at grave risk.
6. It's nice to know that the 4wd capacity is there if needed.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 12:34 pm

>>Also, there seems to be a trend in SUV design to take all the real offroading capability out of them. Built on car frames with big tires and tall roofs, low ground clearance, 2 wheel drive, etc.<<

*cough* Sounds like *coughs* MDX, RX300, LX, ML, X5, CR-V, RAV4, Tracker, Aztec *coughs*

Heck im all out for SUVs

If your paying for it then i can care less. Its stupid? Maybe to one person its stupid, it is a matter of opinion. Diffrent people like diffrent things. Personally i like SUVs, i have nothing against people who pay for them and then drive them. Sure its useless if you dont use it at all like its supposed to be used, but if that was restricted than our basic freedom of choice would be banished.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 12:36 pm

SUV drivers have nothing to be ashamed of.

Most SUV drivers are middle- or high-income earners whose taxes are already used for a number of environmental causes.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 12:50 pm

http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/mpaine/ncaplist.html

Before anybody argues that SUV's are safer, I invite everybody to go see the above link, which shows most vehicles sold on the market and their crash test results. Go look at the pictures for a nice dramatic result. Truth is, the only thing that makes most SUV's somewhat safer is their higher weight, and that only comes into effect if they hit a smaller vehicle. And which vehicles seemed to do the worst? BIG pick up and utility trucks, those big ones with frames that everybody says are sooo safe. I admit, if you hit a deer, or a Civic, yes, they are safe. If you hit another large vehicle, a bridge support or something like that, you're better off in most well designed small cars. It all comes down to the way they are designed. Truth is, "trucks" don't have to follow the same safety standards as do cars, and many manufacturers take advantage of that. It makes them cheaper to manufacter, and provides fatter profit margins.

Another thing which makes many SUV's not as safe as many cars is that they lack in active safety. They don't handle as well, don't go as well, and don't brake as well. That's why in the winter here in Canada, 90% (not exaggerating) of the vehicles you see spun out on the side of the road are SUV's with 4WD, while all the cars are passing along.

A friend of mine had a new GMC Envoy. He wrote it off in a low speed accident where he lost control (go figure) of the vehicle, and hit a rock on the side of the road. The frame (big tough frame) was bent so much that it wasn't repairable. It was not even a big hit, as no airbags came out, and the OnStar didn't detect a crash, which goes to show that many SUV's are not as tough as people think.

I'm not here to bash SUV's, just wish people would not have misconceptions about them. My friend owns a diesel GMC Suburban, and I love that thing. He makes use of it too, didn't buy it for status.

On a side note, the so called dangerous driving Europeans on their highways, actually have lower death rates than do the slow and safe driving Americans. Another thing to think about.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 1:15 pm

Captaingomes..

That is exactly why Poland has the highest accident death rate in the world..Last time i checked Poland was in Europe! AHA!

Latest World Bank Stats

Deaths/10,000 motor vehicles

country
Developed countries
Norway 1.2
Sweden 1.3
Switzerland 1.5
UK 1.6
Japan 1.7
Netherlands 1.8
Australia 1.8
Italy 1.9
Canada 2.0
Taiwan 2.1
Finland 2.1
Germany 2.1
US 2.1
Denmark 2.4
Luxembourg 2.4
Spain 2.8
Austria 2.9
France 3.0
Madagasgar 3.1
Belgium 3.2
Brunei 3.3
New Zealand 3.3
Rep Ireland 3.4
Barbados 3.5
Brazil 4.1
Bhutan 4.2
Portugal 4.4
Singapore 4.4
Mexico 4.6
Philippines 5.3
Malaysia 5.5
Greece 5.6
Tonga 5.8
Hungary 5.9
Islamic Republic of Iran 6.1
Hong Kong 7.0
Costa Rica 8.3
Surinam 9.5
Fiji 9.8
Thailand 11.2
Western Samoa 11.6
Uzbekistan 12.4
Indonesia 12.6
Solomon Is 13.6
Vietnam 14.4
Republic of Korea 14.6
Russian Federation 14.7
Chile 14.8
Lao PDR 14.9
Sri Lanka 15.5
Columbia 16.3
Pakistan 18.7
Central African Republic 19.5
El Salvador 20.0
Djibouti 22.0
South Africa 22.0
Turkmenistan 23.6
Burkina Faso 25.2
India 25.3
Zimbabwe 25.7
China 26.2
Jamaica 26.7
Cote d'Ivoire 27.0
Nicaragua 28.6
Ecuador 28.7
Azerbaijan 29.5
Morocco 30.4
Honduras 34.8
Mauritius 36.3
Kazakhstan 36.5
Botswana 41.0
Cape Verde 42.0
Senegal 45.6
Myanmar 47.7
Liberia 53.7
Kenya 55.1
Mali 61.3
Nepal 62.7
Mongolia 68.1
Swaziland 80.4
Zambia 84.8
Bangladesh 85.6
Papua New Guinea 91.3
Cameroon 93.5
Sierra Leone 107.2
Benin 111.7
Ghana 111.9
Uganda 132.0
Tanzania 136.7
Lesotho 150.9
Nigeria 161.0
Guinea 176.3
Rwanda 193.2
Ethiopia 197.0

Funny how the US isnt higher than alot of European countries isnt it Captaingomes? Next time when you say something be sure to check the stats first....rather than contradicting them!
 
FlyBoeing
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 1:53 pm

The majority of SUV owners just don't really seem to have a real need for one.

Who are you to be determining what my needs are?

I'm heartened to see people with sense posting on this board.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 1:58 pm

Ok, I'm tired and I should have phrased that differently. I still don't have facts to back it up, but I've seen these facts before where the death rates on the highways are generally lower than in the US for western European countries (not all, but in general). This is comparing countries such as Germany, Spain, France, UK etc. However, the death rates on European roads, off the highways, are usually much worse, because the Europeans don't know how to slow down there. But when it comes to highway driving, they could drive safely at much greater speeds than do the Americans. If I can find something tomorrow, I'll post it.

And the reason countries like Poland have higher death rates is because their road infrastructures aren't quite as developed as many other countries, such as the US, Germany, etc etc. The main factors affecting death rates are driver skill and quality of the roads. (Again, stuff I've read before, and don't have them with me to post, SORRY!)
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Greg
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 2:32 pm

SUV's are the new gay status symbol. I think I now know about 15 guys that bought these in the last two years.

Most of them, except the Xterra, is real nice. But personally, I don't care for any of them.

It's a personal choice. Sports cars use just as much gas. And are probably more dangerous.
 
dinker225
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 2:36 pm

Living in the Rocky Mountains of Colorado I see many SUV's. Driving down slippery mountain passes in a blizzard at 20 miles an hour is safe in any car. When you see an SUV flying past you at 40 or 50 MPH your almost guaranteed to see them in a ditch around the next big turn or steeper slope. The point is, these SUV drivers have a false sense of security. People think that they are able to drive their SUV in extremely icy conditions as if they are driving on paved dry roads. Now I am not saying this is the case for every SUV driver. Many people I know that own the things are good drivers. Many people I know that have them are bad drivers.

I myself would never buy one for the heck of it. Same thing goes with a pickup truck. Whats the point of having a pick up truck if you only use the actual flatbed part of it once or twice a year???
Two rules in aviation, don't hit anything and don't run out of gas, cause if you run out of gas yer gonna hit something.
 
D L X
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 4:21 pm

Did you know that the average Lexus, Mercedes, and BMW get lower gas mileage than my Ford Escape?

Did you know that the Honda Accord weighs about 92% as much as my Ford Escape?

Did you know that more rollovers occur with cars than with SUVs every year?

Did you know that almost all SUV rollovers occur when they hit a guardrail (as opposed to taking a turn fast)?


I used to be an SUV basher. Then I developed a need for a powerful 4WD vehicle. When you actually do the research, look at the injury rate and gas mileage of SUVs and also realize that 4WD is not a substitute for good attentive driving in poor conditions, your opinion of SUVs may change also. Also, don't forget that not all SUVs are one in the same. My Ford Escape weighs about half that of the Ford Excursion, which in my opinion should either not be legal to drive on regular roads, or should require a B-level license and training to drive. This and its contemporaries are not "Soccer-mom" cars.
 
L-188
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 4:33 pm

. Same thing goes with a pickup truck. Whats the point of having a pick up truck if you only use the actual flatbed part of it once or twice a year???

I don't know a single person who only uses the bed of their pickup that rarely.

That may be how often we have to tow something though but that is because we don't own a trailer. Everthing we haul fits into the bed.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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sebolino
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 6:05 pm

That's an interesting question.
Of course, you shouldn't be ashamed to buy something which is authorized.
But then, perhaps, you should think about the balance between what's authorized, and what's reasonable.
It seems to be still very under-considered, but the problem of pollution will grow in the near future, and I'm sure the US citizens will have a big revelation about it (I hope not too late).
I'm surprised, because indoor pollution is a problem that US take care of (pb with particle boards, painting products, cleaning liquids, chemical products, ...) . Why - I know the answer - doesn't the US govt take care of outdoor pollution ?
 
L-188
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 6:16 pm

Sebolino, you seem to be advocating the side of more government restrictions on our lives.

Sorry But I personally wish for less.

Power needs to rest with the states not the federal government, but that is a subject for a different topic.

I am still plotting on smuggling in some Canadian Toilets for my house to get around that lo-flo toliet requirement that the feds require. The ones they sell here are ment to save water but you have to flush them three or four times to get the floaters down the pipe.

Where is the savings in that?
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
saintsman
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 6:22 pm

If you want safety and don't care about the running costs, have you considered a tank?

Only joking.
 
Nik
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 6:29 pm

Captaingomes, here are some statistics from IRTAD:

http://www.bast.de/htdocs/fachthemen/irtad/english/we2.html
 
Klaus
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 7:30 pm

Saintsman: If you want safety and don't care about the running costs, have you considered a tank?

It illustrates the point nicely: You yourself might actually be pretty safe. But everybody else... run for your lives!!  Wink/being sarcastic
 
Superfly
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 7:35 pm

OK, let me be the first real automobile enthusiast to comment on this topic.


Everyone in this thread is either spitting out arrogance or pride in owning a certain type of SUV or just taking numbers and twisting them to suit there argument.

Read this old thread of mine that clearly states what the ideal solution to this pathetic hype:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/169798/4/




FlyBoeing:
The original intent for the 'Sport Utility Vehicle' is to specifically serve a purpose. If your a small business owner or live out on the farm and need to haul around horses, or live in an area with many un-paved roads, there is certainly a need for an SUV.
If you own an SUV to just show off in front of you neighbors, that's retarded!
That's what Jaguars and Lincoln Town Cars are for.
Many city and suburban people don't know how to operate these things properly and haven't got a clue on the laws of Physics.
Not to mention, they blind drivers behind them of traffic ahead.


D L X:
......Ford Excursion, which in my opinion should either not be legal to drive on regular roads, or should require a B-level license and training to drive.

Well I am glad you bought a Ford.  Smile
However I disagree on the Excursion comment. The Excursion was not designed from ground up. Keep in mind the Excursion has been around for almost 30 years. It's been called the F-350 pick up.
All the Excursion is is an F-350 with a campershell welded to the bed with seats and an interior.
Basically what I am saying is that the Excursion is just a variant of an existing product.
Also, my 1977 Town Car is about 3 inches longer than the Excursion.  Smile



The SUV should be treated like a septic tank.
It is meant to be a utility and not a status symbol.



Bring back the Concorde
 
prosa
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 10:06 pm

The Excursion was not designed from ground up. Keep in mind the Excursion has been around for almost 30 years. It's been called the F-350 pick up. All the Excursion is is an F-350 with a campershell welded to the bed with seats and an interior. Basically what I am saying is that the Excursion is just a variant of an existing product.

Moreover, Excursion sales have fallen short of Ford's expectations. For all the talk about "bigger is better," it looks as if many potential buyers have found the Excursion just too big for their needs.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
L-188
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Fri May 31, 2002 10:11 pm

The Excursion was ment to compete against the Chevy Suburban but I suspect that one of the reasons it's sales are slower is because of the Expedition.

For some people there isn't any reason for them to jump between the Expedition to the Excursion.

BTW. From what I understand, Ford originally intend a luxury SUV when they came up with the Excursion. They had a plain jane crew van that they could sell to the same companies that where buying F-350,450 and 550 pickups and flatbeds to use as work trucks.

I doubt Ford is loosing any money building this vehicle, much like the differences between an A-300 and A-310, there is more in common then different.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 12:11 am

Nik: Funny the european countries DONT publish accident rates off the interstates!
 
heavymetal
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 12:28 am

Nice. I think you're mistaken if you think its just a bunch of granola-y treehugging liberals that are trying to get you to think about the negative consequences of driving a car with 70s-era gas mileage.

How many young men & women does this country have stationed from Riyahd to Kabul, in countries that don't want them, in danger that's ever present? Why? 'Training excercise'? No. They're there living smack dab in the middle of ancient blood fueds and 11th Century extremism so that you can drive your four wheeled pig around at 12 miles to the gallon....and post internet messages daring anyone to chide you for it.

You speak of standard of living. I agree that the American standard of living is one we've earned and it is worthy of respect. But has being ignorant of consequences become part of that standard? I'm sorry to say that it has.

I don't know about you, but IMO the sooner we can at long last cut the umbilical of dependence to the Middle East ...this country's 'standard of living' will be far higher than it would be if everyone had an Excursion.

 
Olympic A-340
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 12:37 am

"Honey, I am going to go and contribute to the current energy crisis" ::comes home with a loaded Ford Excursion (problem-lives in Los Angeles)  Big grin
Naw, I am just kidding (partly)...I own a 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee which I "inherited" from my dad when he bought a new car. I like it. It has its advantages, such as higher ground clearance and a roomy interior but also it disadvantages, like a 30 dollar fee every 6-8 days to fill up. If however, I do need a car for college, I will sell it immediately and get a VW Golf or a Jetta maybe. The fact is, this Jeep was given to me purely because my dad didn't want to buy me a new car, so I took his old one. In all honesty, I really wouldn't purchase such a vehicle unless I really needed one. Sure, it is great to impress guys in  Big grin (hell even girls for that matter) but am I really that superficial- I don't think so.

I'll leave on this mental picture: Imagine a Ford Excursion or Chevy Suburban trying to navigate a one lane, confined city road in say Athens, London, Paris or any other major city. That must be a sight to behold!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Arrivederci
Olympic A-340
 
captaingomes
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 1:25 am

"Everyone in this thread is either spitting out arrogance or pride in owning a certain type of SUV or just taking numbers and twisting them to suit there argument" ... Superfly, that is more arrogant than anything else in this whole thread so far. I can assure you that I am a REAL automobile enthusiast, as are many others here.

I'm not an SUV basher, but I will admit I don't understand the fascination with them either. But people do have a choice and that's something that should not be legislated. Continuing with pollution and emissions standards is the way to go, and when people realize that for them it's too much of a cost to have an SUV, then they'll switch.

Nik, thanks for those stats, that's exactly what I wanted. Saves me a bit of work today  Smile It does show that the fast driving Europeans don't kill themselves as much as do the slow driving Americans on motorways. But the Americans seem to do better away from the motorways, and that was my original point. That ties to the fact that people have to learn how to drive responsibly, and understand their vehicle's and their own limitations, because if that fails, that's when accidents happen.

"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
notdownnlocked
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 1:46 am

Excellent post Heavymetal. Unfortunately many many here in Texas have SUVs with no real need. The even more ridiculous ones have that big bumper and grille guard over the front end and shields over all the lights, not for protection while out at the safari from wild hippos but for running over shopping carts while at Target and Wal-Mart. Its the most ridiculous thing I have seen on the road. Some of these people need to be slapped and brought back into the real world.
 
GD727
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 1:47 am


Why should people hate SUV's? They are great vehicals! The only way they are unsafe is that they roll over easier, but when it comes to collisions, they hold up very well. I personally don't give a rat's @ss about fuel efficancy, why should other people complain to you when YOU, not them, are paying for the gas? Small cars are much unsafer: (Ex: Toyota Carollas, Honda Civics, Ford Escorts ect..), if you get in collison in one of those cars, your DEAD, it's that simple! So don't go telling me SUV's are unsafe.

Greg: The thing about gay guys and SUV's? That's the biggest heap garbage I've ever heard!

-GD727
Mmmm forbidden donut.
 
Sonic
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 2:00 am

Well, SUVs don't allways helps with bad roads. One my relatives has friends in country. The road to go there is unpaved but is trafficable by all cars except winter in strong storms. Strong snowstorms are rare in Lithuania so it should be so that those relatives should need SUV only for about one time a year maybe. Twice if considered also some picnics in forests or wild beaches where SUV also helps. They had 1992's Audi 100 (2.3L engine) previously - a good and spacious car. After it got stuck several times, they decided to change it to a new SUV (that was in 1998). Because they needed a SUV only several times a year, they decided to buy a small one for economic reasons. So they bought 4WD 2.0L Honda CR-V. It obviously wasn't as comfortable neither as good as Audi 100, but what'd you expect from SUV. So well, once they decided to visit those friends in country in strong snowstorm. And what do you think happened? The car got stuck in snow! They had to dug their SUV with showels, just like Audi 100. In not such strong snowstorms SUV worked OK, but so did Audi. Well, you'd call it coincidence? Once again, they decided to come with their SUV to "wildlife". They gone to beach and thought to ride through it. They rided from large snowhill (which wasn't that steep) and weren't able to go up. They went up only from fifth time.
Before that experience (both times I also was in car) I liked SUVs, but after that they doesn't seems to be such useful for me. Maybe this doesn't applies to Hummers and such, but again, those "superSUVs" aren't comfortable at all so you'd still have to have second car in your family. And knowing the cost of Hummer you'd have to be extremely rich to buy such car if it would only be required several times a year.
I also ridden in the following SUVs: Jeep Cherokee (also seems to be non-powerful), Jeep Wrangler (well... Maybe it's fun to ride with that car, but I think it lacks powerful engine and I don't think it would be good in true offroad), Suzuki Samurai (Small copy of Jeep Wrangler).
 
travelin man
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 2:05 am

"Unfortunately many many here in Texas have SUVs with no real need."

There's that phrase again: NEED. Who the hell are you to tell me what my "needs" are? Does anyone "need" a $100,000 Mercedes? Perhaps nobody needs to drive a sports car, because after all, we have speed limits, right?

If everyone drove what they "needed", we'd all be driving gray Chevy Malibus.

I have a Toyota 4Runner, and it is a great SUV. I put things in it, I go camping with it, I go skiing with it, and many times I am just driving myself to the supermarket in it. But I'm absolutely sick of people telling me I don't "need" it because I don't have 3 kids and a load of lumber to haul around every day. It gets 20 MPG on the highway, which is not bad, and it is classified as a "low emmision vehicle", as are many SUVs.

Why don't people put their flyers on the $100,000 Mercedes that gets worse gas mileage and is a bigger "waste" of resources? After all, nobody "needs" that, do they?
 
D L X
Posts: 11657
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 2:07 am

GD727, please reread Heavymetal's post for an answer to your question: "why should other people complain to you when YOU, not them, are paying for the gas?"

Also, reread my post regarding your comment: "The only way they are unsafe is that they roll over easier..."

"Small cars are much unsafer..." Yes, when they hit a large SUV like a Tahoe or an Excursion, the small cars eat it.

As an SUV driver myself, there is NOTHING that burns me up more than watching another SUV driver act like they're invinceable on the roadways. This goes well beyond bullying smaller cars, but also racing up and down the mountain in bad weather because they think their car will take care of them. That's the primary reason SUVs roll over: their drivers drive them like they are invinceable.
 
Super Em
Posts: 424
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 2:10 am

I like SUV's and someday I plan on owning one. Why don't they go after sport car owners also?
 
heavymetal
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 2:15 am

Travellin, relax...I dont think anyone's saying there should be laws or whatever to keep people from buying SUVS...

But I've lived in Texas too and there's something fairly infuriating about a five foot 2 soccer mom who can barely see over the steering wheel trying to pilot an Excursion around a mall parking lot. She (or her hubby) have every right to buy it, I dont think thats what Not Down was saying....but when MY insurance rates go up because she and others like her aren't properly built to drive what is essentially a decent sized TRUCK, and when MY life is in danger just so others can excercize their right to buy this giant vehicle for little more reason than to say they have one....yeah, Hoss, know what? I'm GONNA ask the question. Do they really need it?
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 2:21 am

That's fine, you can ask if they "need" it. And I have the right to point out that not very many people "need" the car they own, be it SUVs, sports cars, luxury cars, etc.

And I wish people would refrain from painting all drivers of a particular type of vehicle as idiots. I've seen plenty of idiots driving rice rockets, sports cars, and even Honda Accords.

And if you really feel your life is in danger by large vehicles, I'd suggest moving out of Texas.
 
D L X
Posts: 11657
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 2:37 am

George Carlin used to say that there are two types of drivers on the road today: Assholes and Maniacs.

An Asshole is anyone that drives slower than you, especially in your lane.
A Maniac is anyone that drives faster than you, especially in your lane.


(Just a humorous aside to calm people down a notch.  Big grin )
 
heavymetal
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 2:46 am

And if you really feel your life is in danger by large vehicles, I'd suggest moving out of Texas.

I did.

 
captaingomes
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 2:56 am

http://www.suvrollovernews.com/html/facts.html
http://www.suvrollovernews.com/html/general.html

I would like to invite people to the above links. While it looks like one of those consumer advocate websites which will skew their stats and results to say one thing and exaggerate everything, there are graphs at the bottom of each page supplied by NHTSA, which provides hard cold facts based on U.S. motor vehicle crashes.

The first link shows that rollovers are the second most deadly form of accident on American roads. The second link's graph shows that SUV's and pickups are much more likely to rollover than vans and cars. The reasons are simple. SUV's have a higher centre of gravity, taller tires, and the DRIVERS do not take that into consideration when driving them. (Not all of course). Take into account improper maintenance such as not checking tire pressures and that will not help SUV's.

I'm not posting this to cause a war, but D L X said "Did you know that more rollovers occur with cars than with SUVs every year?" He didn't support that with info, so I thought I'd look that up.

It's a fact that SUV's really provide a false sense of security, and it's exactly that security which people buy them for. If they knew how to use them properly, then maybe they would be more secure.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
GD727
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RE: D L X

Sat Jun 01, 2002 2:56 am


D L X: I actually agree with you and Heavymetal about Americans living in the Mideast. My family tries to buy gas from companies that do not import oil from the Mideast. But about the small cars, if a small car even gets in a collision with say, a Pontiac Grand Am, it will still be destroyed!

-GD727
Mmmm forbidden donut.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 3:00 am

That's why the Pontiac Grand Am was given the worst possible rating, and essentially killed the dummy in crash tests. Give me a well designed small car any day over a Grand Am to crash in. Oh, the small car might be destroyed, but the driver will walk out safely. The Grand Am will be destroyed too, but so might the driver.

Have a look:

http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/99026.htm

But you'll get $0 down and 0% financing through GM, so who cares about safey  Smile

"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
McRingRing
Posts: 1028
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 3:02 am

And this from an interview I did with the Manager of Public Information for AAA - taken directly from the transcript. No link available.

Well, without a doubt, statistics show that [SUV's] aren't safer. They are primarily off-road vehicles designed to cross streams and go over logs. They have a high center of gravity, and as such have a propensity to roll over. In fact, there are, in the average year, 10,000 rollover deaths in the United States and 62 percent of all those who are killed are driving SUV's.
B==============) ~~~~
 
D L X
Posts: 11657
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 3:04 am

Gomes sez: "I'm not posting this to cause a war, but D L X said "Did you know that more rollovers occur with cars than with SUVs every year?" He didn't support that with info, so I thought I'd look that up. "

True, I didn't support it this time. (I have in the past.)
I did extensive research before deciding to buy an SUV, and a small one at that. If I recall correctly, the source that stated more rollovers occur from cars comes from the IIAH. (Insurance Institute) The deal with rollovers in SUVs is not from taking corners too fast as most people blindly believe. It's from hitting guardrails on the sides of roads, especially in hilly or mountainous areas.

I'll look for my source again and post it tonight if I find it. The fact is, most SUV bashers bash SUVs for the wrong reasons. There *are* right reasons, but they don't apply to all SUVs and all SUV drivers. These reasons do often apply to sports car drivers and large luxury car drivers though.
 
bruno
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2000 2:01 pm

RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 3:12 am

To answer the original question.

Yes, you SUV drivers should be ashamed and drive with a frown on your faces because that's what the liberal eco-freaks feel!  Pissed
I support the women’s movement up and down!
 
captaingomes
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 3:14 am

D L X, I have to agree with you there. That's why I was careful in the way I worded my reply to you, because you are stating the opposite facts that I am but in an intelligent way.

I still think that it all boils down to the driver. I drive a VW Jetta. They have very high safety ratings for a 3,000 lbs car (just below the bigger, tougher Grand Am ... makes you wonder how they build such a big car to be so light considering its size). Given that, if I hit an Excursion, I'm probably dead, and the driver will survive. If I hit another 3,000 lbs. vehicle without safety designed into it, I might survive, and that driver will die. But, given I drive a small car that handles well too, I will more likely than not be able to brake in time or swerve safely to avoid an accident. A safe driver will usually be able to do that. I'll take those odds any day.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
srbmod
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 3:28 am

Of course, how many of those with SUVs actually take them off-road, which is what they were originally design for, off-road use. The closest many of these SUV driving soccer moms get to off-roading is when they have to park in a gravel lot. I myself have seen the drivers of SUV almost cause wrecks. These drivers are about as bad a tractor trailer drivers, move it or lose it! These drivers are a menace on our roads, and they need to taught how to drive responsibly. The only thing worse than an SUV driver is one on a cell phone. Add to this fact that many of these vehicles are gas guzzlers, and take $40 or more dollars to fill up, just increases our reliance on foreign oil. The most ironic thing I have seen is a "Save the Earth" sticker on the back of an SUV. The fact that the automotive lobby is so strong is a problem when it comes to SUVs. They have been able to get them classified as trucks, and they are no more a truck than an El Camino is. The government tried to put new mpg standards on SUVs, and the lobby got them to kill it. Are these people going to drive their SUVs when gas gets above $2.00 a gallon? I myself drive a sedan, and even though I get good gas mileage, I myself have decided to switch to two wheels once gas gets over $2.00 a gallon. I am not a Birkenstock-wearing, veggies and granola eating hippie tree hugger either, but will trade my car for a motorcycle once gas gets too expensive.
 
JAL
Posts: 3876
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 3:35 am

I have a Nissan Pathfinder and I'm very happy with it. I don't care what others think about my choice of automobile, for my next car I fully expect to get another SUV.
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
D L X
Posts: 11657
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 4:19 am

CaptainGomes, check out Srbmod for an example of someone who lumps all SUVs and SUV drivers into one category without knowing all the facts.

Srb, which SUVs are you talking about? Which SUV drivers are you talking about? When you make a note of gas mileage, are you including only SUVs, or are you also including the sports cars and large luxury cars that actually get poorer mileage than my Ford Escape? You make some good points that you totally throw away because you don't even recognize the fact that different SUVs and SUV drivers perform differently. For instance, the highest I've ever paid to fill my tank was $29. And, that is in California, during a time where gas was $2.10 per gallon. Am I a gas whore? Not hardly. I bike to work.

What kind of car do you drive?
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4442
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 4:44 am

Yes, you SUV drivers should be ashamed and drive with a frown on your faces because that's what the liberal eco-freaks feel!

Hey Rush...tell that to the families of the soldiers killed at Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia guarding "our" oil.

You've been totally brainwashed by Big Oil. It's all the "eco-freaks" huh? Too bad nobody listened to the "eco-freaks" after the Gulf War. Who's sons and dads have to die the NEXT time we go back huh?
 
N202PA
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2000 9:44 pm

RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 4:48 am

You've been totally brainwashed by Big Oil.

Heh, I guess anyone who doesn't "see the light" has been "brainwashed" and is obviously too ignorant to form an opinion. Right?
 
heavymetal
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RE: Why Should SUV Drivers Be Ashamed?

Sat Jun 01, 2002 5:03 am

Anyone has the right to form an ignorant opinion.

In any case, you said it... not me.

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