Guest

At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:36 pm

At least 17 people were killed this morning in a bus in northern Israel, when a Palestinian suicide bomber exploded his car against the bus.
The Egged bus 830 left Tel Aviv at 5.50 am for Tiberias and was full. There are several injured, many are in critical condition.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=173265&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

As often, this mass killing occured while political negotiations were starting again, with Tenet visiting Arafat. Some on these forums have an "explanation" for these barbaric attacks against the Israeli people : the Palestinians are so desperate to have the peace process back on trails, that they commit suicide attacks...

[[ BTW, in the 1990s, the SAME barbaric bombings, committed by the SAME terrorist organizations were "explained" by the exact opposite argument : the "militants" were opposed to the peace process...they were an extremist minority which wanted to end the peace process... To "explain" the SAME horrific phenomenon with two OPPOSITE arguments is the most blantant proof of bad faith.]]

IF the Palestinians' goal was really to have a peace process again, how could anyone "explain" why they commit these atrocities, and why they choose always the same timing : the start of new negotiations...?




All I see is the following : as long as the IDF are in the territories and as long as there are NO negotiations, there are NO ATTACKS.
 
Guest

RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:48 pm

really, they seem to attack when negotians begin. zinni came twice and, both times witnessed some of the most barbaric disasters.
 
Guest

RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:58 pm

this was perpetrated by a group called "Islamic Jihad". They do this in the name of Islam. In the name of god and Islam. Kill civilians, blow them to pieces for god and islam. ISLAMIC JIHAD. This is their "jihad" blowing morning commuters to shreds. for islam.

ugh, makes me so sick.
 
Guest

RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 5:00 pm

And BTW...Tenet & Co seem to have been SO efficient to protect the American people...that he would be well advised to work a little at home, instead of travelling around the world and fawning on one of the worst terrorist ever.
 
Guest

RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 5:29 pm

Islamic Jihad is opposed to Arafat, so don't start blaming the PA. These attacks will continue as long as Israel continues to illegally hold territory and commit acts of terror against the Palestinian people.

You want security in Israel - fine, then the only way that will ever happen is when a genuine attempt at peace is made. Sharon is doing his best to undermine the US/Saudi summit in order to downgrade them to no more than a 'talking shop' - something that the Saudis, Americans or Palestinians are willing to let happen.
 
Guest

RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 5:37 pm

Yes sas23...then explain to us how the suicide bombings have begun WITH the peace process in 1994, and WHY these barbaric killings are committed right WHEN negotiations are RESTARTING...



"a genuine attempt at peace is made"...the attempt has been made in 2000; the result has been: INFERNO IN ISRAEL, with OVER 500 dead.


"These attacks will continue as long as Israel continues to illegally hold territory"...which means :

"These attacks will continue as long as Israel continues to exist".








BTW...as always sas23...there's not one word of condemnation or of sympathy after such a horrendous massacre.
 
go canada!
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 6:36 pm

SAS23,

what do you call the middle east process, is not that genuine enough for you, is it a fake(no doubt some zionist plot to rule to world!)?

Israel offered statehood in 1948, the arabs said no, instead it faced 50 years of insecurity.

Israel allowed the palestinian authority to be set up, the pa has responded by not clamping down on terror.

Israel offered statehood again, under barak, this was rejected without any peace talks nor negotitians.

the americans became further involved and tried for a new peace plan, israel supported it, the palestinians didnt.

You cannot say that arafat has made an genuine attempt at peace, he hasnt.

Islamic jihad may not agree with arafat on everything, however if they are so staunchly against him you would expect the pa to clamp down on them wouldnt you?

but thats not the case is it people?

has arafat clamped down on them?no
wheres the reform arafat was talking about? empty words

these attacks will not stop if Israel reverts to pre-1967 borders for the aim of these terrorists is thd elimation of the state of israel, the majority of arab countries do not even recongise israel has a right to exist and no matter what hot air comes out of the leaders mouth the situation stays the same.

there can be no peace for these groups unless every jew dies....

there can be no peace for israel unless every terrorist dies.....

'acts of terror', oh yes like the fake massacre at jenin?

its not surprising that most of the pro-arabs on airliners chose not to post when they here of israel civilain deaths but as soon as one palestinian dies israel is then attack, called facist and even accused of starting another holocaust. the reason ebing they cnt understand how such a peaceful organisation .like the pa can sit by and watch these attacks happen ad they cant understand that terrorists will never stop.

an attack on civilians is an attack on civilians and its another sorry day for israel.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Guest

RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 6:41 pm

Actually, Toda, the Jewish acts of terror against the indigenous population began long before Israeli independence in 1948 ... which as I am sure you will agree, is well before 2000!  Big grin

I have said before - you obviously did not see it or take it on board - that Chairman Arafat and the PLO has recognised Israel's right to exist. This therefore nullifies your false statement: "These attacks will continue as long as Israel continues to exist".

In the same way that Jews have the 'right of return' on frankly very dubious grounds, then so should the Palestinians who have considerably more legitimate grounds - ie that they were forced off their land as a result of ethnic cleansing by the Jews.

As to why those attacks are happening when peace talks are restarting: that's simple. Islamic Jihad, being opposed to Arafat, want to try to derail the peace process. Sharon and his extreme right wingers, who have no interest at all in making peace with the Palestinians, are more than happy to use these attacks as an excuse to call off the process.

And as for the victims of the attacks: I am always saddened by innocent victims of terrorism, no matter what their religion, nationality or ethnic group might be.
 
Sonic
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 7:57 pm

By the way, SAS and Toda, Israel just used Palestinian terror as cause to end the peace process. There were several terror acts, ussual thing in Israel. After Israel started stopping peace process, more terror acts happened and Israel then just stopped peace process.

In fact, Israel never wanted the peace process, other world wanted it and pressed Israel, however, Israel still found causes to end it.
 
pacificjourney
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 9:05 pm

Great ! Enough of this peace crap.

Sell them some serious weapons and lets get this war on the road shall we ! They want to kill each other, lets help.

Using a highly scientific (but secret) method I figure that with the right 'stuff' in the right hands the whole area will be an utter wasteland by the time the next world cup roles around. We should be able to watch the next world cup in peace at least
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
EL-AL
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 9:12 pm

Again,
Again we all see which side want peace,
Again we all see which side use terror,
Again we all see which side kill insocent people,
Again we all see which side wants to stop the riots,
Again we all see which side want to live in peace.
Again.
every day is a good day to fly
 
pacificjourney
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 9:14 pm

Yes El-Al we see it again, but to answer you, both and neither.

So, lets help them kill each other as fast as possible and that will be the end of the problem. Seems simple enough ....
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
EL-AL
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 9:21 pm

I hope that what you just wrote was a joke.
If it was not, man, you have problems...
every day is a good day to fly
 
Sonic
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Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2000 3:10 am

RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 9:34 pm

El Al...

Again,
Again we all see which side want peace, (Palestinian civilians only. HAMAS and Israeli war leaders doesn't)
Again we all see which side use terror, (both sides kills civilians)
Again we all see which side kill insocent people, (both sides yet again)
Again we all see which side wants to stop the riots, (both sides wants to stop the riots of other side)
Again we all see which side want to live in peace. (I think all civilians does)
Again.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 9:36 pm

These attacks will continue as long as Israel continues to illegally hold territory and commit acts of terror against the Palestinian people.

What acts of terror, Mr. Palestinian? Show me? Where are they? I haven't seen any "attacks" by Israel since their military operation? Why don't you enlighten us?

You want security in Israel - fine, then the only way that will ever happen is when a genuine attempt at peace is made.

Pretty hard to do, SAS23, if your Israel, because the other side has never tried to make peace with you, and keeps blowing up your citizens. Why not damn the Palestinians for never trying peace? Why not encourage them to give peace a chance? It takes two to tango, but for warped minds like yours, only one side is supposed to make the effort.

Sharon is doing his best to undermine the US/Saudi summit in order to downgrade them to no more than a 'talking shop' - something that the Saudis, Americans or Palestinians are willing to let happen.

Sharon publically stated the Palestinains should have a state. So how is he trying to "undermine" peace. It's undermined every time one of these nuts blow up people. Amazing, isn't it-negoitiations are going to start again and ZAP! Another attack. Coincidence? I doubt it. It's a concerted, thought-out program of slaughter, nothing else. So why is it so noble in your eyes, SAS23? Why is the continued slaughter of innocent Israelis something to admire?

I have said before - you obviously did not see it or take it on board - that Chairman Arafat and the PLO has recognised Israel's right to exist.

What are you-Yassir's PR man? You sound like one. Yes, in ENGLISH, he's calling for peace, but in ARABIC, he's still yelling for war. Not the signs of an honest or peaceful man. He doesn't want peace. He never has and he never will. Why are you so blind in continuing to think the opposite way?

This therefore nullifies your false statement: "These attacks will continue as long as Israel continues to exist".

Why is that a "false statement"? Because you're too blind to see that? It's actually closer to the truth than any of the propoganda you spread on here with regularity. The terror cells exist to kill Jews-do you REALLY think they'll stop just because Palestine is created? Are you really that naive?

As to why those attacks are happening when peace talks are restarting: that's simple. Islamic Jihad, being opposed to Arafat, want to try to derail the peace process.

Gee, you finally figured that out! Maybe there's hope for you yet. I doubt it, but maybe.

Sharon and his extreme right wingers, who have no interest at all in making peace with the Palestinians, are more than happy to use these attacks as an excuse to call off the process.

It's called "trying to protect your citizens", SAS23. If the other side continues to attack you-and steps up those attacks during peace negotiations, why continue to talk to them, when they obviously have no itnerest in peaceful existence. Most civilized nations would do the same thing when faced with such conitnued attacks.

And as for the victims of the attacks: I am always saddened by innocent victims of terrorism, no matter what their religion, nationality or ethnic group might be.

What you didn't say, SAS23, is that you don't consider the Jewish victims in these attacks as victims of terror, do you? You've called them "legitimate targets" on here before, under the ludicrous assertion that many of them may have gone through service in the IDF. You always leave things unsaid.

By the way, SAS and Toda, Israel just used Palestinian terror as cause to end the peace process.

Sonic, why do you always see it so ass-backwards? The attacks continue to STOP the peace process. Is Israel supposed to just lay down and surrender to such terror? Why should ANY NATION negotiate with a group of people who's open, freely stated goal is their destruction. Stop putting the cart before the horse.

In fact, Israel never wanted the peace process, other world wanted it and pressed Israel, however, Israel still found causes to end it.

Sure, that's why Israel has made peace with former mortal enemies Egypt and Jordan. And again, if you don't think the continued deaths of countless civilians at the hands of these thugs isn't cause to not negotiate, I can only conclude you and I have different views of what's good and bad in the world, Sonic.



 
pacificjourney
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 9:44 pm

Why would I be joking El-Al ? They want to kill each other, lets help.

How many years have outsiders tried to stop these pricks killing each other and failed utterly ? So I propose a simple change of tactics, help them do what they so obviously want to do.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
Guest

RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 9:47 pm

There were several terror acts, ussual thing in Israel.


That's a summit : terror acts are something USUAL in Israel; there's nothing wrong with it, and Israel shouldn't care about it, it's just something usual.

That's exactly THE PROBLEM : since the beginning of the peace process in 1993, suicide bombings have become something USUAL in the mind of the world community, your words are just saying this.
Perhaps that when busses and restaurants will begin to explode in Moscow, in Paris, in Rome or in Amsterdam, you'll also simply state that "well, that's a usual thing in Europe".
Or perhaps you'll be shouting that it's unacceptable and that all means should be employed to put an end to this bloodshed.




* * *


After Israel started stopping peace process, more terror acts happened and Israel then just stopped peace process.

In one sentence you're able to say one thing and its exact opposite...!

And what does mean "start stopping"?
 
Guest

RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 9:52 pm

Pacificjourney,

Please give us a list of all the restaurants, the pizza parlors, the shopping centers, the public busses, the cafés or the discotheques Israel has blown up.

Please give us a list of how many Palestinian civilians have been DELIBERATELY TARGETTED by Israeli forces.

And then come back. What you are saying is as insultant as if I said it about OBL and the USA.
 
Sonic
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 10:03 pm

Alpha1...

Acts of terror by Israelis are killing civilians of Palestine. You might say they wanted to kill terrorists and killed civilians just accidently, but this doesn't matters. Killing civilians is killing civilians. Somehow western special forces like SWAT or ARAS here in Lithuania doesn't kills civilians that usually. And, as you named yourself sometime back, killing civilians is terrorism.

Arafat now wants peace, he even ordered terrorists don't do terror acts. However, Palestinian terrorists doesn't wants. Well, there are criminals everywhere. By killing Palestinian civilians for nothing and destroying their homes Israel just makes more terrorists. If someone lost his family and home and all wealth he has no more reasons to live. And of course if he has the capability, he would revenge instead of simply commiting suicide.

If Sharon stated that then he should let Palestinians go free instead of destroying their radios and other signs of freedom. Talking is one and doing is another thing. Again, you can't say Palestinians doesn't wants negotiations. Attacks will always happen until Israel will give Palestine freedom and some years after that, just more seldom. Again, ordering Palestine stop all terrorism is the same as ordering any nation stop all crime. No one controls all terrorism to stop it. Terrorists aren't army. And, as I have stated above, by killing Palestinians and destroying their homes Israel makes more and more hopeless Palestinians whose hatred is at highest levels.

Could you prove that Arafat in Arabic says he wants war? Any links please to some news sources where his exact words are written?

Israel now built so much hatred that yeah, attacks will continue maybe several years after Palestinian independence. However if Israel will occupy Palestine again after an attack then they will never reach peace. They now must be patient and attacks will end. Egypt and Jordan aren't so big enemies after all. If Israel would now give Palestine independence and support Palestinians who lost homes and wealth under Israeli regime (this is the first thing to do, because it is the only way to show Palestinians that even Israel can change), it would have a peace at about 2010. It is dumb thing to require stop terrorism, because actually Palestine can't do it. Nobody controls whole terrorism, but Israel controls whole army, so Israel is the only side capable of stopping attacks.

That Islamic Jihad opposes to Arafat is true and it yet again shows nobody controls whole terrorism.

Sharon would protect his citizens the most if he would recognise Palestinian independence. In a civilizied nation like Lithuania who wants to go would be let go. By the way, in Lithuania law forbids generals becomin ministers.

I think both victims in Israel and Palestine are victims of terrorism. But you will never recognise that murders by Israeli army are also terrorism

Read above please about why Israel should negotiate

Israel made peace process with Jordan and Egypt because of very clear reasons. No nation wants to live surrounded by countries which hates it. However, Palestine is not a country, so Israel thinks they can do anything with it.
 
pacificjourney
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 10:04 pm

No ! No more discussion. Discussion doesn't work there. Enough oxygen and keyboards wasted already over this.

Just let them get on with what both sides so clearly enjoy, killing. Do yourself a favour Toda and just stay in Switzerland.

BTW, insult OBl and the USA all you want, no problem for me.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
Sonic
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 10:06 pm

Toda,Reisinger

Please read my post just above this one for answers to all of your questions.
 
Greg
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 10:21 pm

According to the moderators, this will be the only post allowed in regard to the Middle East. Thank Goodness.

I think of the last ten suicide bombings-six or more have been on buses. Why are Israeli's still riding buses?? Isn't there any kind of security?
 
prosa
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 10:21 pm

As often, this mass killing occured while political negotiations were starting again, with Tenet visiting Arafat.

Which is scarcely surprising. There obviously are some factions which don't want peace, and the timing of the attack is designed to derail the political negotiations.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
Rai
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 10:29 pm

Why are Israeli's still riding buses?? Isn't there any kind of security?

Greg: Why are we still riding planes? Security hasn't improved THAT much?
 
Alpha 1
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:09 pm

Acts of terror by Israelis are killing civilians of Palestine.

Where are these "acts of terror". Show me!!! WHAT ACTS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!! Back up those claims! I can back up the claims of terror against Israel: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20020605/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_4576 Where is the back up to your claims? Jenin? Where even the U.N. doesn't believe there was a massacre? SHOW ME!!

You might say they wanted to kill terrorists and killed civilians just accidently, but this doesn't matters. Killing civilians is killing civilians.

Now you fall in to the SAS23 way of thinking Sonic. You now equate civilians caught in crossfire with the INTENTIONAL MURDER of civilians by suicide bombers. If you can't see the difference, then, again, you and I have different views of right and wrong in this world. If you believe that, truly, then you have fallen into supporting the use of terror as a legitimate weapon, which it is not.

Arafat now wants peace, he even ordered terrorists don't do terror acts.

Arafat as NEVER wanted peace. It's only the wide-eyed apologists in the world for this dirtbag who think this old dog as learned new tricks. If he's so bent on peace, why does he keep calling for war in Arabic? And how can he "order" people that don't follow him to stop something. That's like Bush ordering Al Quaeda to Cease and Desist.

Israel now built so much hatred that yeah, attacks will continue maybe several years after Palestinian independence.

ROTFL. If that isn't "waffling" then I don't know what is. You make it sound like "yeah, no big deal if they keep killing Jews after a peace accord". But then you go on to say:

They now must be patient and attacks will end.

How patient would you be if lets say some Russian terrorists started blowing up Lithuanians on a regular basis? How patient would you be every time negotiations start, that the cycle of violence increases to a new and deadly level. It's awful easy for you to sit at home in Vilnius and tell someone a few thousand miles away to "be patient", when you're not in harms way. If they're "patient" as you suggest, there'll eventually be no Jews left in Israel. They'll all have been murdered by suicide bombers. Patience can only get you so far. Eventually, you have to defend yourself, if you have half a brain.

I could go on and on, Sonic. It's really pointless arguing with closed minds and wide-eyed apologists for terrorism as you and SAS23 constantly do on here. Yet I will continue to challenge the stuff people like you put on this forum. Hopefully, someday you won't wake up in Vilnius and find your people in the same situation as the Israelis are now in. When you do, maybe, just maybe you'll understand what the hell is being talked about here.

 
Guest

RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:20 pm

Why are Israeli's still riding buses??




Why are Israelis still eating in restaurants?

Why are Israelis still walking in their streets?

Why are Israelis still drinking coffees?

Why are Israelis still shopping?

Why are Israelis still travelling abroad?

Why are Israelis still going out at night?

Why are Israelis still trying to have some fun in life?

Why are Israelis still buying fruits and vegetables in their markets?



That's really the brightest question one could have "asked".



* * *



Isn't there any kind of security?

- Oh yes, there is a "kind"; a kind which has allowed to prevent dozens of attacks of that kind.

But 100% security is not achievable; that "kind" of security doesn't exist.
 
Guest

RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:21 pm

Now this is rather interesting (even if it is 5 years old) ... I wonder what the Zionist lobby of A.net will make of it?  Big grin Big grin

Lies of the Allies--Now and Then

A party of terrorists from the Israeli "Flotilla 13" naval unit were recently repelled from Lebanese territory.

The Israeli invasion of Lebanese territory near the port city of Sidon, (which was lately shelled by Israeli-controlled "militia," with at least six Lebanese civilians dead), was defeated by the Shiite Amal fighters of Lebanon. Twelve Israeli assassins were killed.

This Israeli state terrorist unit is responsible for kidnappings and assassinations such as that of Khalil al-Wazir, a Palestinian dissident, in Tunisia. Wazir, better known as Abu Jihad, was killed by Flotilla 13. The Israeli terrorists also carried out the murders of Palestinian leaders in Beirut in 1973.

Amal officials in Lebanon confirmed that the Israeli terrorists were in Lebanon on a mission of kidnapping and assassination when they were defeated by Lebanese defenders outside Sidon.

The New York Times and other Jewish-controlled newspapers did not describe the Israelis of Flotilla 13 as invaders or terrorists. Rather the Times referred to their attack in Lebanon in sanitized Orwellian terms as "preventive action inside Lebanon" (N.Y. Times, Sept. 6, 1997).

Meanwhile, Israel's Channel 2 news program said Infrastructures Minister Ariel Sharon, the Jewish war criminal who led the invasion of Lebanon in 1982, argued that the Israelis should avoid dangerous Flotilla 13 operations and instead strike at "civilian infrastructures" in Lebanon.

How's that for advocacy of naked terror? Sharon openly calls for attacks on "civilian infrastructures," a repeat of the 1996 Israeli holocaust against Lebanon during which cities, towns, water and electrical systems were destroyed, crippling the struggling nation, and resulting in heavy Lebanese civilian casualties.

These Israeli crimes reflect vintage Allied policy in force for more than 50 years:

1. First dehumanize the civilian population (as the Allies did to German and Japanese women and children during W.W. II and to Iraqi women and children during "Operation Desert Storm").

2. Utilize air force bombing against those "Kraut," "Nip" and "Camel-rider" civilians.

3. Refer cosmetically to the resulting Allied war crimes as "browning" (RAF), "collateral damage" (U.S. Air Force) or "preventive action" and "retaliatory raids" (Israeli military).

The Establishment media have generally never been indignant or analytical in the face of Allied genocide. The U.S. and British media support it, through incorporation of Allied military Newspeak into their news reports. They accept the Allied notion that terrorism perpetrated by an Allied government cannot be terrorism.

Allied dogma holds that terrorism can only be perpetrated by "Shiites" and "Hamas" and "Qaddafi," or "Iran" or "the neo-Nazis."

Terrorism, in the Allied fantasy, has a proprietary relationship with the enemies of the Allies and cannot, by its very definition, be applied to the Allies themselves.

This is why only Serbs and Croats are on show trial at the Hague for "war crimes." Jews, again by definition, cannot be war criminals-- neither Soviet Communist Jews or Israeli Jews--no matter how many war crimes they commit.

David Axelrod is the great-grandson of Jewish Communist mass murderer Leon Trotsky, who slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Russian Christians. Axelrod is a Zionist who resides in occupied Palestine. In 1990 he murdered an elderly, unarmed Palestinian couple.

Can one imagine the field day the U.S. and British media would have had with the news that the great-grandson of Heinrich Himmler had murdered an elderly Jewish couple? The headlines would have gone around the world, out to the galaxy and been read by the inhabitants of the Milky Way.

But did you ever hear of Axelrod or his murderous crime? Of course not. Media "discretion" prevails. He is Jewish, one of the Herrenvolk, the Master Race, therefore his terrorism is not terrorism and the same goes for the ocean of blood his great-grandfather poured over Mother Russia. Trotsky's acts were not war crimes. They were "preventive actions."

These fictions are imbibed by the masses in America and the British Commonwealth, but not by much of the rest of the world. In the Middle East, this double-standard kindles ever more Muslim and Arab rage, which the Americans and British then pretend not to understand and find "appalling."

But the British and Americans have manufactured the rage with their mocking human rights rhetoric, which contrasts so dismally with the their actual record of selective indignation concerning whose rights will be defended and whose will be systematically eradicated.

The terms "war criminal" and "terrorist" have been cynicaly politicized to gain real politik advantage in statecraft. The Allies have been execrable hypocrites in this arena for more than 50 years and while they can force their vast communications media upon the world, they cannot invest their Newspeak with credibility or compel the world to believe it.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:33 pm

SAS23, you're good for a laugh, that's for sure. Josef Goebbles would have been proud at how you use such colorful terms to twist, hide, deny and obfsucate the truth. Well done. I'm sure you're proud to be in such high company as Herr Goebbles.  Big thumbs up
 
Alpha 1
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:34 pm

It's amazing, SAS23, that I've never gotten an email from you-my address is right there, isn't it? I'd love to hear some of your propoganda on a more personal level.  Big grin
 
Krushny
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:37 pm

Let's see what the Israeli cabinet has to say on this. From CNN :
Israel put the blame for the bombing squarely on the Palestinian Authority. Ra'anan Gissin, a spokesman for Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, promised "severe measures" in retaliation for the attack and blamed Arafat for it.

"Sixteen of our citizens are lying dead because Arafat, the Palestinian Authority have taken no action whatsoever to stop terrorist activity ... and therefore, all this talk of reforms are useless and a waste of time," Gissin said. "As long as Arafat does not perform, there can be no reforms that will bring about an end to this senseless killing."


So more worthless babble from the Israel authorities... if not outright lies. The WB was supposedly invaded, and is raided every other day, to root out and prevent terrorism, which obviously has not been accomplished. And they blame Arafat, who does not have a fraction Israel means (tanks, helicopters, Army, F16's), for not accomplishing that !!!
To me it is amazing that the many in the pro-Israel crowd still believe these clowns. Sharon has failed miserably in his promise of bringing security to Israel, has he not thoght of resigning? Has anybody in Israel asked for that? Does anybody there know the notion of accountability???

 
Sonic
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:38 pm

Agree with SAS23, this is why I respected you...

Alfa1, you only taken portions of my text and discussed with. Most of these portions were already explained in the same post they were written. However, I will re-explain them especially for You.

Watch the news and read newspapers and you will have enough evidence about Israeli terror. Also, as I already said, somehow in civilizied countries very few civilians are shot in "crossfire" by special forces and terrorists let's say. In Israel it happens almost everyday. Calling that coincidence is the same as call all suicide bombings coincidence.

Again, please say at least one prove from neutral site (not some Jewish version of duke.org) that Arafat is calling for war.

If someone would want independence from Lithuania, we would grant it. We were occupied just like Palestinians now, so I know what it is. Your country was never occupied so you don't know.

I said attacks will end after Palestine will be granted independence, ect. Please re-read my post before this one. And please also allways read a post before arguing against it.
 
Guest

RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:40 pm

Yes sas23, we ALREADY know who you are.


"He is Jewish, one of the Herrenvolk, the Master Race"

This hateful and HIGHLY PROVOCATIVE sentence alone , meant only to hurt, tells us what your moral values are (and what kind of "sources" you have...)







I just ask myself where the moderators are...
 
Krushny
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:54 pm

I have to object to the title of this thread ("Massacre").
Toda, you were one of the posters who said that no massacre had taken place in Jenin. If my memory does not falter, officially 45 terrorists and 22 Palestinian civilians were killed in that operation. On the other hand, you announce to us that 16 people (some civilian, some militars) were massacred today in Israel.
So 67 dead Palestinians is not a massacre, and 16 dead Israelis is a massacre. Is a Israeli life more valuable from an ethical standpoint? Please explain this double standard to us.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Thu Jun 06, 2002 12:15 am

Agree with SAS23, this is why I respected you...

More's the pity for you Sonic. If you respect an anti-Semitic like that, and he is, no question about it, and someone who SUPPORTS terrorism, that's your disgrace, not ours.

Watch the news and read newspapers and you will have enough evidence about Israeli terror.

I watch the news, I read the newspapers-where is this terror? Where are the Israelis blowing up Palestinians daily, as the terrorists are blowing up Jews. You're answer was meant to sidestep the question, Sonic. You still haven't answered the question. I gave you a link with my answer, where is your link, full of these stories of daily atrocities against Palestinians? Can't find them? Maybe because such atrocities only exist in minds like yours and SAS23, perhaps?

If someone would want independence from Lithuania, we would grant it.

ROTFL. At the barrel of gun, or a terrorists bomb? Riiight. And you just showed my why you miss the point about this: the terrorism has NOTHING to do with anyone wanting indpendence. NOTHING. It has everything to do with hatred and wanting to destroy a group of people. Period. You mark my word, Sonic. There will be an agreement someday between Israel and the Palestinians, and the terror WILL continue. When that happens, you come explain it to me, ok?

I have to object to the title of this thread ("Massacre").

Why? Because it tells it like it is, Krushny?

Toda, you were one of the posters who said that no massacre had taken place in Jenin. If my memory does not falter, officially 45 terrorists and 22 Palestinian civilians were killed in that operation.

45 scumbags and 22 innocent people-over how long a period, Krushny? A two-week period or so? The scumbag terrorists are killing about 20 people at a time with their bombings. Are you going to argue that one isn't a massacre, and one is? You're making it right up there with SAS23 and Sonic. What great company!

 
Krushny
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Thu Jun 06, 2002 12:30 am

Alpha1, I asked Toda, not you. I may not agree with him many times, but he can provide valuable arguments when challenged. Not your case.
 
Sonic
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Thu Jun 06, 2002 12:37 am

Alpha...

You just proved that you are racist in fact. You said that SAS is antisemitic. if he is, that means you are anti-arabic, but you don't think anti-arabic is as bad as anti-semitic (please don't say "stop putting words in my mouth" because if you wouldn't be anti-arabic you wouldn't have said what you said to Krushny "22 civilians per two weeks isn't much". Oh yes, if that I would say about Jews you would say that every innocent life is much, but you don't think innocent Palestinian life worth anything. You are much more racist than SAS in fact).

As for news, go to cnn.com and search. By the way, massacre of Jenin is one of proves of Israeli terror. And, you still didn't given any links about Arafat wanting war. Most likely you read that somewhere in Jewish supremacist site. Telling that is the same as if I would start quoting David Duke.

Did I ever said terror will stop immidietly after Palestinian independence? Re-read all my posts. Not immidietly, after Palestinian independence it will just become more seldom. Maybe after 5-10 years after idependence it will stop completely. But not only independence is required for that. Also heavy Israeli support for new Palestine and it's people, economy. Support is actually maybe the only way to stop terror completely. Because support would also rise Israeli influence and importance in Palestinian life.
However, if Jews won't grant Palestinian independence (and I know they won't at least until 2005 but I doubt they ever will however), terror will continue and hatred towards Jews will only increase.
 
Greg
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Thu Jun 06, 2002 1:21 am

I figured if the death rate for being in a bus was something like 10,000% higher in the last year or so maybe folks would find another way to get around. I think it's a perfectly reasonable question. Even Greyhound here in the states has implemented some security measures. No reasons the Israeli's can't.

Oh well.

Gee Toda...if you feel so passionately about this whole affair..why are you sitting in Switzerland and not fighting for your homeland? Yeah..that's what I thought.

Another armchair patriot. Give it a rest.
 
Guest

RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Thu Jun 06, 2002 3:04 am

maybe folks would find another way to get around

Yeah, great idea... When I was in Israel in December, I avoided as much as possible riding busses or walking near a bus line; I even once went off a crowded bus in Tel Aviv and continued my trip in a taxi. But I was there on vacations, for 2 weeks. When you're living there, it's somewhat more difficult to act like that. Perhaps you have same bright ideas to give to the Israeli population...


And if last week's attempted mega-attack had, God forbid, succeeded and killed several hundreds or thousands Tel Aviv residents, what would have been your "question" : "Why are Israelis still living in Tel Aviv??", I guess?
 
777236ER
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Thu Jun 06, 2002 3:07 am

Most (14/16) were soildiers. How does this qualify as a massacre?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
wardialer
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Thu Jun 06, 2002 3:09 am

How come Americans don't even consider suicide bombings? Sounds odd.
 
tbar220
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Thu Jun 06, 2002 3:14 am

Pacific,

Why don't you try contributing something useful? Oh wait, that would waste too much energy.
NO URLS in signature
 
Sonic
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Thu Jun 06, 2002 3:18 am

Yes 777236ER, and when Palestinians kills civilians, these people moans "why they doesn't kills army?".

Toda, I don't know why you avoided riding in busses. Yes, there is terrorism in Israel, but in fact we know about it only because it is being "advertised" in news (the same as we are always informed about air disasters but almost never about car crashes and it makes it seem that you are safer in car than plane). Terrorism in Israel doesn't kills that many persons. In fact, I believe Israel is safer by "easiness to die" than many countries (where crime rates are huge). Of course, if you are middle easterner this isn't true.
 
Greg
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Thu Jun 06, 2002 3:30 am

Actually, if all the Israeli fanatics would put their energy into improving security and intelligence information--instead of trying to fan the flames of hatred than something might be accomplished.

I don't expect much from the Palestinians---but much, much more from the State of Israel.

Toda....what specifically are you doing to alleviate this situation? Clearly you are one of the true zealots of Israel.

Brdgs.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Thu Jun 06, 2002 8:16 am

My God....... I'm just about convinced that there will never be peace in the Mideast. The waste of life is overwhelming.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
pacificjourney
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Thu Jun 06, 2002 8:24 am

Tbar, who is wasting energy having the same old tired discusion ? You are right, not me, not anymore. See previous post on change of tactics.

Boeing nut, After a nights sleep you may actually find your new realisation somewhat liberating .... I did.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
NWA742
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RE: At Least 17 Dead In A New Massacre In Israel

Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:57 am

Ah.....here we go again.

These attacks will continue as long as Israel continues to illegally hold territory and commit acts of terror against the Palestinian people.

SAS23, explain to me what the so called "terrorist" attacks from Israel are? Does military action against terrorists stick in your mind as acts of terrorism itself? Israel is focused on killing Palestinian terrorists, and along the way, innocents have died, but it is a war, and innocents will always die. You want to talk about innocent people, look at the innocent Israel families being killed left and right!

You want security in Israel - fine, then the only way that will ever happen is when a genuine attempt at peace is made.

Israel is trying to negotiate peace terms, but everytime this happens, we have more Palestinian suicide bombers killing innocent people. For all I care, I hope Israel demolishes Palestine for these acts.

that Chairman Arafat and the PLO has recognised Israel's right to exist

How is that? By adding terrorists to high positions in his government, by financially supporting families of terrorists, just like Saddam Hussein? Just because Arafat says he wants peace to the public, doesn't mean it's true. His gestures completely contradict his sayings.

Palestinians who have considerably more legitimate grounds - ie that they were forced off their land as a result of ethnic cleansing by the Jews.

Yes, they were forced off the land that they stole in the first place!

that's simple. Islamic Jihad, being opposed to Arafat, want to try to derail the peace process

So now you're saying that we have more terrorists, 'Islamic Jihad', opposed to the peace process? You're almost there SAS, but not quite. Those terrorists are Palestinians opposed to the peace process, and who support Arafat as he supports them.

By the way, SAS and Toda, Israel just used Palestinian terror as cause to end the peace process. There were several terror acts, ussual thing in Israel. After Israel started stopping peace process, more terror acts happened and Israel then just stopped peace process.

LMAO!!!! Sonic, so you're saying Israel used Palestinian suicide bombers to end the peace process? You're blaming it on Israel?! My advice to you is, please seek some counseling.

Again we all see which side want peace, (Palestinian civilians only. HAMAS and Israeli war leaders doesn't)

Oh yes, Palestinian civilians, to which many harbor terrorists in their families, really want peace now don't they? Or how about Israel civilians having nothing to do with attacks on Palestine, being murdered?

Again we all see which side use terror, (both sides kills civilians)

That's true, but it's different. The Palestinian terrorists deliberatly kill innocent civilians, why Israel soldiers going after the terrorists, have accidently killed some innocent Palestinians.

Again we all see which side wants to stop the riots, (both sides wants to stop the riots of other side)

No, one side trys to negotiate peace, another side harbors terrorists in high positions in their government, financially supports terrorists, etc etc etc.

Again we all see which side want to live in peace. (I think all civilians does)

Wow, that's about right, but you're including Palestinian civilians who harbor terrorists in their families, and who appear to be innocent.

Acts of terror by Israelis are killing civilians of Palestine.

These are not acts of terror from Israel. These are mistakes, which often occur in war, and remember, civilians will always die in wars!

You might say they wanted to kill terrorists and killed civilians just accidently, but this doesn't matters. Killing civilians is killing civilians.

Yes, it matters very much. There is a big difference between mistakes and purposely killing innocent civilians. Remember, this is war, and in every war, civilians will die. In the case of Israel, they've been mistakes, in the case of Palestine, they've been planned.

Arafat now wants peace, he even ordered terrorists don't do terror acts.

Just because he "ordered" the terrorism to stop, by no means does that mean he wants peace. Also, have you recently heard what he has done, he has put terrorists into high positions in his government, yes, he want's peace alright.  Yeah sure

By killing Palestinian civilians for nothing and destroying their homes Israel just makes more terrorists.

These killings are accidents, GET THAT INTO YOUR CLOSE-MINDED HEAD. It's not Israel making terrorists, it's Palestine, a breeding ground for it, get that straight as well.

Could you prove that Arafat in Arabic says he wants war?

No, none of us can get inside and read his terrorist-supporting mind.


You know, at this point, I am tired right now of correcting the simply absurd terrorist-supporting sayings from people like SAS23, Sonic, etc., who support terrorism. You know, you guys try to deny it and say that it is wrong, if you actually meant this, then why do try to defend them any chance you get?

So, why do you people support terrorism? No denys please, we all know your true colors at this point.



WHY?


-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs

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