airlinelover
Posts: 5287
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:03 am

I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 6:21 am

I was in here, browsing the forums, and I finally decided to open the first "why not believe in god" thread.. This was last nite, when it had about 230-240 replies.. I started by thinking.. HOPING.. that it wasn't gonna turn bad the more that I read in it.. Well..

I just wanted to say I have noticed a change in a lot of ppl here on the forums, and I must say it is for the better. That thread, while it may have had the potential to become a huge flamewar, didn't. I actually learned some stuff there that I didn't know, which was a NICE surprise.. So I just wanted to let everyone know that.. Posts like that, with THAT MANY REPLIES, and no real flaming going on, is the kind of thing that makes me proud to be a member and moderator on this site  Smile

Way to go everyone  Big thumbs up

Chris
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
Eric505
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 11:18 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 6:27 am


I agree with you, I think its starting to get better.
Alcohol is the anesthesia by which we endure the operation of life
 
AWspicious
Posts: 2780
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 7:47 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 6:38 am

That's because I haven't responded to it, yet.  Laugh out loud
There are certain topics I try to stay away from, and, religion is one of them. Many wars were waged with religion playing a role in some form or another, so, I know better than to go there.

aw
Nevermind political correctness - Envision using your turn signals!
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 6:53 am

I've noticed a change too. A complete intolerance by way too many people, on other peoples opinions. Only one Israel/Palestine thread at once? Never mind if someone has a totally different take to present. Somebody doesn't agree with something and they are all over the suggest delete button. Moderators working not on one set standard, but for the most part, their interpretation of said "standard". Tell me these are not problems. Tell me that the fact that there has to be a limit on "active" threads on a topic speaks well for the users and the site. These are pressing issues, and I KNOW I am not the only one who feels like this. It's great that the God thread went the way it did, but for every thread that goes like that, there are several others that all fall into the things I described above. These are great forums with great people...as long as everyone is allowed to have their opinions and discuss them freely without lighting fuses..........
 
Klaus
Posts: 20594
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 6:56 am

I guess it may be because that massive black hole "Palestine vs. Israel" is swallowing all the fire and the flamers around...  Wink/being sarcastic
 
174thfwff
Posts: 2831
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:47 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 7:20 am

These issues might be non-existent if we all worked in the same room. However this is not the case Kroc, and many of us have never talked at all. I only know of two other moderators besides myself, and only one I talk to often. That makes it hard to come up with one standard. Johan rely trusts us so much that contact with us is very little. Only very important issues he chimes in on. I have tried to set up a list of email, aim, icq #'s, etc. that would resolve this problem, but only 2 people replied. I hope you can see why the standards are different for a lot of us. I do however include in the delete post message why I deleted the message and include my personal email address for people to ask me questions or calmly ask why their thread was deleted.

Here's my willingness to help all of you...
IF anyone has any questions please feel free to email me about anything that's about these messageboards or general questions. My email can be found in my profile.

-174thfwff
Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, Staten, Uptown, what now? Lets make it happen.
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 7:36 am

KROC, it's impossible to have one standard. Even in the real world no two courts will arrive at the same decision for the same case. Until the day comes when we all think alike, see things the same way, have the exact same experiences and all come from the same backgrounds, we will never all make the same decisions, even when given the same guidelines.

However, there ARE ways to reduce discrepancies and achieve a more unifying view, and that is by discussing and criticizing each decision each mod makes. Our decisions are all transparent, meaning, we all know about the actions of each other. This in itself reduces the liklihood of a one-man dictatorship. If there's a decision made by one mod that another doesn't agree with, he will bring it up and we will have a discussion about it. In the end, we ALL learn from each discussion, which leaves us with a more unified view and approach to doing things.
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 7:41 am

By the way, I forgot to mention that one way we could further reduce misunderstandings is to remain approachable, so I'm going to follow in 174thwff's example by inviting anyone with questions/issues/concerns to please email me at hepkat_2@yahoo.com, and I will also make a greater effort to hang out in the chat forum.
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 7:43 am

174thwff:

I understand completely where you are coming from. I understand that the moderators cannot all work together all the time. What I am saying though, is that there is not one set of guidelines that has been set up for all the moderators. A comprehensive list of things to follow, will take out much of the "personal feeling" element. I am not actually trying to criticize you, or any other moderator with this, as I am trying to put forth very valid points. 174th, I respect you as much as anyone, because you include your email name and a REAL reason why you have deleted a post or thread. I am sorry that you have had very little responses in setting something up to talk with other mods, which leads me to this. In my past battles with Hepkat, he frequently referred to "talking with the other mods". That leads me to believe that cliques have formed in the moderator group. Whatever, but that just adds to the chaos when posts get deleted. As a basic plain old user, we honestly can get confused when one mod will see no problem with a post, yet the next mod sees it as nothing but pure evil. I also understand that Johan has and has to put his trust in you guys, and 174th, I feel you and a few others have not disappointed, but their are others, and I have email proof that I am not the only one who has this view, that other moderators are being not exactly right down the middle on things. I am accusing nobody, and not saying names. All I am saying is what a general consensus is feeling.

The fact that you go out of your way 174th is a testament to you. And you do it all without getting a power trip or taking the moderator thing way to seriously. Johan needs to look at your example, and run the basis for moderators off of that.
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 7:49 am

Hepkat. Everyone needs to stop thinking I am "Moderator Hating". I know it is impossible to have one set standard that is followed to the tee everytime. Things will always come up, that require a personal touch so to speak. What I am saying though, is that having a set standard that the moderators follow as closely as possible will help reduce the "one mod lets the thread go because he sees nothing wrong with it, but the second moderator thinks its flamebait and deletes it". Right now, its safe to say, that the moderators are all operating more or less on their own terms. If that is what Johan is calling for, then fine, but it should be known. In the interests of fairness and understanding, the moderators should be as close as possible to being on the same page. Everyone is different, BUT, something has to be done about the large discrepancy gaps in moderating. Not because I personally think so, but because users of the forum need to have at least a fairly clear idea of what to expect from the moderators.
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 7:55 am

KROC, Johan HAS given us guidelines on what is acceptable and what is not. But even these are always within context and are subject to interpretation. For example, let's look at swearing. He has instructed us that swearing is generally not to be tolerated, but this all depends on how a swear word is used, how often and the context. If a user presents a clear, well thought out argument that includes a swear word for emphasis, then this cannot be considered inappropriate. But when the thread breaks down into petty bickering which includes "useless" swearing, then in my opinion, that should be deleted. But this is all subjective, as you cannot say with any measure of concreteness that swear words are ALWAYS to be deleted. See what I mean? Even when given clear guidelines, you still have to be subjective, and this is where our personalities will come in.

But as I said, we DO have a system of checks and balances. We review every other mod's decisions, and we do have discussions. Beyond that, there's really not much more we can do.
 
Dash8King
Posts: 2657
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:45 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 8:06 am

I agree with Kroc that there needs to be guide to follow. You say that there are guidelines to follow but sometime it doesn't seem so. Some post which may be taken wrong by one Mod are usually not offensive to many other users.
 
Dash8King
Posts: 2657
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:45 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 8:08 am

Man everything is gettind deleted! It's like living in Israel.
 
McRingRing
Posts: 1028
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 2:59 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 8:12 am

I agree with everything the moderators are saying.
B==============) ~~~~
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 8:17 am

Hepkat, with all due respect, let me break this down.

KROC, Johan HAS given us guidelines on what is acceptable and what is not. But even these are always within context and are subject to interpretation

If this is true, then why are they not being followed? If they were, the drastic difference in moderating would not be as great as it is right now.

Even when given clear guidelines, you still have to be subjective, and this is where our personalities will come in.

Great. "Personalities". Let's see, I can add a little interpolation into this...BAM, I don't like it, its gone. In essence, this would not be as dramatic as I suggested IF the moderating guidelines were being followed by all moderators.

But as I said, we DO have a system of checks and balances. We review every other mod's decisions, and we do have discussions. Beyond that, there's really not much more we can do.

I don't buy this for a second. Who is "we"? It is already clear that 174thfwff had tried to get in contact with as many moderators as possible and got a WOPPING 2 responded. This is why I said there are "cliques" in the moderating group. If you only discuss with those that see things your way, then nothing will ever be worked out. With a solid guideline set and being followed, a "checks and balances" system should not be needed.
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 8:27 am

KROC, I believe you need to reread my prior post. In it I've already explained much of what you just brought up.

don't buy this for a second. Who is "we"? It is already clear that 174thfwff had tried to get in contact with as many moderators as possible and got a WOPPING 2 responded. This is why I said there are "cliques" in the moderating group. If you only discuss with those that see things your way, then nothing will ever be worked out. With a solid guideline set and being followed, a "checks and balances" system should not be needed.

What 174thfwff was referring to was contacing mods privately. We all receive every post or user deletions and every email that's sent to the forum administrators email. When we have a discussion pertaining to A.Net, we all receive these emails (we belong to a maillist). However, there's nothing stopping us from contacting each other privately, and that's what 174thfwff tried to do without much success. You have to realise that we're on different time zones, and many, if not most of us have to work. When we have our A.Net discussions however, we all receive these emails and notices in our inbox, so there's no way to avoid them.
 
apathoid
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2001 3:19 pm

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 9:38 am

Sure am glad KROC chimed in on this one. Isn't it great to have him back????

maybe someone will read this before it gets deleted  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 9:43 am

Apathoid. I sure am glad you took the time to add that insightful comment to the thread. As always you are a big part of this forums success.  Yeah sure
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 9:47 am

When we have a discussion pertaining to A.Net, we all receive these emails (we belong to a maillist). However, there's nothing stopping us from contacting each other privately, and that's what 174thfwff tried to do without much success. You have to realise that we're on different time zones, and many, if not most of us have to work. When we have our A.Net discussions however, we all receive these emails and notices in our inbox, so there's no way to avoid them.

Hepkat, first off, maybe we should both be re-reading, but I am just bringing up challenges to things you call discussions and checks and balances. Also, as far as checks and balances go, belonging to an email list does not constitute as a discussion. Especially as you said, you are all on different time zones. I doubt you all discuss the deletion posts in your mailing list. At least to the point where you say you all "discuss" things. You call it what you want, and I accept that, but I will call it what I want, and until I see what I feel is real proof of a so called check and balance system, I will continue to believe otherwise.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 9:50 am

KROC, Johan HAS given us guidelines on what is acceptable and what is not. But even these are always within context and are subject to interpretation.

Yes, and here are a few of the exceptions.

1. Don't call Yassir Arafat a "dirtbag". It may upset the wide-eyed Palestinian apologists on here. Oh, but it's quite all right to call another memeber a fascist.

2. Don't mention about murdering Palestinian families on here (and again, note I was totally against this suggestion by TNNH). Don't worry about justifying the murders of Israelis, as the THI gang does on here, but the other way around? Not acceptable.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 9:58 am

Oh, yes, I just thought of another exception:

1. Don't entitle a thread about Saudi Arabia as "The Truth About Saudi Arabia". Even though it does not break any forum rules, it's not acceptable. I was told by the anonymous mod that had it said "The Truth About The Saudi Government", it would have been acceptable.

And you don't see double standards here, Hepkat, baby?  Smile
 
174thfwff
Posts: 2831
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:47 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 10:34 am

Well Guys,
thanks for appreciating the way I handle things. I try my best.

We really don't have checks and balances IMHO. Unless one moderator goes to far out of line, nothing is done internally at all to try and correct a wrong unless it is, like I said, a very big goof. When it is something VERY important then Johan comes in to talk to us: I.E. ILS...

I don't want to cause a ruckus within the moderators, so I will stop here. But I do have to say one more thing. We are all trying very hard and I know you all know that, however I just want to say it again.

Check ya on the flip side,
-174thfwff
Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, Staten, Uptown, what now? Lets make it happen.
 
airlinelover
Posts: 5287
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:03 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 11:22 am

To add to 174th's post, what I do if I am unsure, I have a lot of the mods on my IM programs.. so I just IM one or more of them.. Or I email the lot of them and wait to see.. that seems to work well too, as I see others doing it as well..

Chris
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
TurbineBeaver
Posts: 1511
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2002 1:50 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 11:23 am

...Ok, now can someone please point me to a thread where Apathoid has made a useful comment? The only posts of his that I have seen are of him ranting along about how he dislikes so and so user, or whatever. He never chimes in with suggests or comments, just to be an annoyance, eh? Good work Apathoid.  Yeah sure

I think AirlineLover has a point, these forums have come a long way, in ups and downs, but we have a LONG way to go. At the risk of getting flamed, I like to correlate it to the stock market, we started out small, grew and things got bigger and better, but then an instability hit, and the quality slumped, then in came the moderators, working to improve things, and clean things up, it gets better, but we all realize, these moderators are all mortal, and can't have the same standards due to the fact that they aren't exactly...trained at the "institue for A.net moderating" and they are running off their own judgement, not a "problem" but more of an "issue" in the growing pains of installing moderators, and figuring out how to effectively and efficiently use them. So, I think we have come along way, but we still have plenty of room for growth/change. Moderators, good work, I commend you, but I think you realize how frustrating it can be for some of us to have to face the...dare I say....doubl.....errr....inconsistency among each moderator's judgement. It's just something to improve on!

Cheers,
TB

*errr...I guess that stock market was a pretty shoddy example...bare with me.
 
airlinelover
Posts: 5287
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:03 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 11:29 am

SELL SELL SELL!!!!!!!  Smile

TB- I actually do understand that referance.. It is a good one, and it is one that actually makes a lot of sense..  Smile Hope that may help some ppl understand..

Chris
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 11:38 am

I doubt you all discuss the deletion posts in your mailing list. At least to the point where you say you all "discuss" things. You call it what you want, and I accept that, but I will call it what I want, and until I see what I feel is real proof of a so called check and balance system, I will continue to believe otherwise.

No, we do not discuss every single deletion, only the controversial ones, or those that we're not in total agreement with. The checks and balances refers to the fact that we all see what each other does, so there's a much less chance of someone acting outside the guidelines.

Oh, yes, I just thought of another exception:

1. Don't entitle a thread about Saudi Arabia as "The Truth About Saudi Arabia". Even though it does not break any forum rules, it's not acceptable. I was told by the anonymous mod that had it said "The Truth About The Saudi Government", it would have been acceptable.

And you don't see double standards here, Hepkat, baby?


Alpha..., baby, whenever you have a deleted post, it's always best for you to discuss it with the moderator that deleted it. I'm sorry if you think this is a cop-out answer, but there's no way for me to read someone else's mind, and I'm certainly not going to undermine our effectiveness by blasting another mod's decision on these forums. If you find our decisions inconsistent, then this is an issue you should take up with us collectively using the forum admin email. If you don't receive a favorable response, then it's because we disagree with your stance.

Great. "Personalities". Let's see, I can add a little interpolation into this...BAM, I don't like it, its gone. In essence, this would not be as dramatic as I suggested IF the moderating guidelines were being followed by all moderators.

As far as I understand the rules, we're not allowed to delete a post simply because we don't like it. As a matter of fact, there have been several threads or post that I didn't personally like, but there's nothing I can do unless the user breaks forum rules. The last time a moderator deleted a user he didn't like, he promptly lost his crown and almost nearly his head.

Although I welcome criticism, I sincerely doubt any of you could perform this task any better given the constraints we have to work with.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 11:53 am

Alpha..., baby, whenever you have a deleted post, it's always best for you to discuss it with the moderator that deleted it.

Gee, Hepkat, I'd love to, but when they're too chicken-shit to leave their name behind, it makes it kind of diffucult.

If you find our decisions inconsistent, then this is an issue you should take up with us collectively using the forum admin email. If you don't receive a favorable response, then it's because we disagree with your stance.

Excuse me, but if you guys are inconsistent, I think YOU, as a group, need to get YOUR act together. It's not my responsibilty to monitor you, is it? Problem is, Hepkat, that more often than not we don't receive ANY response. The silence is deafining, but speaks volumns, far as I'm concerned.

Again, it goes back to the fact that certian people on her are, quite literally, allowed to do whatever the hell they want, but those of us "on the Dark Side", if you will, are put to a different standard, and are not given the same benefit of doubt. I know you and the other mods and the Administrator do not agree with, but I believe it is so, and nothing has changed my mind about it.


 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 11:57 am

Although I welcome criticism, I sincerely doubt any of you could perform this task any better given the constraints we have to work with.

I severely beg to differ on this. I think more than a few of us would do a much better job. Sorry, but breaking out with comments to users who you have deleted a post and saying "Do you know who we are?" more or less shows users the "job" has gone to ones head. As far as constraints? If one follows the "set guidelines" how many constraints can there be? Also, objectivity is a key element required for being a moderator, and so far, that does not seem to be too much in abundance.

No, we do not discuss every single deletion, only the controversial ones, or those that we're not in total agreement with. The checks and balances refers to the fact that we all see what each other does, so there's a much less chance of someone acting outside the guidelines.

So not exactly a "checks and balances" system is in effect then? I know nothing is perfect, and I don't expect it to be, but it is pretty clear, that what you would lead us to believe in regards to moderators "policing" each other is not to the extent you would like us all to believe. What is that old saying.....you can't bullshit a bullshitter.

Alpha..., baby, whenever you have a deleted post, it's always best for you to discuss it with the moderator that deleted it. I'm sorry if you think this is a cop-out answer,

Cop-out answer...you?  Big grin Anyway, emailing the moderator is not always beneficial. Considering most moderators won't even put their name on the emails they send where notification of a deletion is stated. If you delete it, own up to it with a logical reason (unless the post is something like a moron posting a picture of some guy with his cack hanging out of his shorts pissing).
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 12:26 pm

Alpha:Gee, Hepkat, I'd love to, but when they're too chicken-shit to leave their name behind, it makes it kind of diffucult.
KROC:Anyway, emailing the moderator is not always beneficial. Considering most moderators won't even put their name on the emails they send where notification of a deletion is stated. If you delete it, own up to it with a logical reason (unless the post is something like a moron posting a picture of some guy with his cack hanging out of his shorts pissing).

The decision to remove the mod's individual name was voted on collectively and implemented by Johan. It's no longer possible for us to sign our names; "Moderator Crew" is automatically added by the script. I was against this measure as I preferred signing our individual names so that a user could contact us directly. I would still support going back to the old way of doing this, but unfortunately I'm in the minority which means you'd have to convince the other mods. However, you can still send us a general email and the mod to whom it is addressed may choose to answer you directly.

Excuse me, but if you guys are inconsistent, I think YOU, as a group, need to get YOUR act together. It's not my responsibilty to monitor you, is it? Problem is, Hepkat, that more often than not we don't receive ANY response. The silence is deafining, but speaks volumns, far as I'm concerned.

If you noticed Alpha, I said "if you find our decisions inconsitent". I did not say that they were or they were not. I only meant to point out that disagreements are bound to arise, therefore if you feel we have made a bad decision, you always have the option of emailing us. Thank you for your concern, but we already have our act together.

Again, it goes back to the fact that certian people on her are, quite literally, allowed to do whatever the hell they want, but those of us "on the Dark Side", if you will, are put to a different standard, and are not given the same benefit of doubt. I know you and the other mods and the Administrator do not agree with, but I believe it is so, and nothing has changed my mind about it.

This is purely a matter of your personal opinion. The fact is, no mod is allowed to do simply what he likes. There're nineteen or so other mods watching over his shoulders. Unless all 20 of us think alike, I can personally guarantee you that there is no categorizing of A.Net members. If you believe yourself to be part of the "dark side", then maybe you need to examine what you do that puts you there.

I severely beg to differ on this. I think more than a few of us would do a much better job. Sorry, but breaking out with comments to users who you have deleted a post and saying "Do you know who we are?" more or less shows users the "job" has gone to ones head.

I have no idea what this refers to. Maybe you should email me privately on this one.

As far as constraints? If one follows the "set guidelines" how many constraints can there be? Also, objectivity is a key element required for being a moderator, and so far, that does not seem to be too much in abundance.

By constraints I mean different time zones, different ways of looking at things, having to work, not being able to have a live discussion, etc.

So not exactly a "checks and balances" system is in effect then? I know nothing is perfect, and I don't expect it to be, but it is pretty clear, that what you would lead us to believe in regards to moderators "policing" each other is not to the extent you would like us all to believe. What is that old saying.....you can't bullshit a bullshitter.

I'm getting very tired of repeating myself, but I will indulge you for the final time. Except for private emails, we all see each other's movements. Those posts I deleted of yours earlier were all sent to each othe mods. If anyone disagrees, he may bring it up, but that's his right. Most deletions go by unchallenged, but the more controversial ones gets discussed. There's bound to be someone not in agreement. In the end, we may decide to restore it, or leave it as it is. However, just because we do not comment on a deletion doesn't mean that we aren't aware of it. It simply means there are no objections. I hope this clears up any misunderstandings you had.
 
McRingRing
Posts: 1028
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 2:59 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 12:27 pm

unless the post is something like a moron posting a picture of some guy with his cack hanging out of his shorts pissing

No KROCTarasco, I think that would fall under the category of "gay" and therefore be allowed to stay.  Big grin
B==============) ~~~~
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 1:15 pm

Thanks McringBurnitz. I should have known that one.  Big grin

Hepkat, you are tired of repeating yourself, only because you seem to skirt the issues presented. That is why me, and Alpha 1 keep raising more issues. It's late, and frankly, this is going nowhere, so let me end with this.

I severely beg to differ on this. I think more than a few of us would do a much better job. Sorry, but breaking out with comments to users who you have deleted a post and saying "Do you know who we are?" more or less shows users the "job" has gone to ones head.

I have no idea what this refers to. Maybe you should email me privately on this one.

You have no idea what that refers too? It wasn't but a couple of hours ago, you used that line in a "personal message" to someone who you deleted their post. Lines like that only act as to solidify my, and many others opinions that the moderators take moderating way to seriously, get big heads or inflated ego's because all of a sudden they have some "power". That and the lack of objectivity and plain old common sense seems to be in short supply in the current moderator situation. There seems to be no ability to decipher a "suggest deletion" crybaby/opinion differs from theirs/can't deal with anything that doesn't go their way user, from a legitiment deletion request. I know that Flamebait and such from posts is a problem, but the way things get deleted around here is a problem as well. Everyone in the higher positions act like it is the users that are affecting the quality of the forums, when in reality it is a combination of the users and the moderators. TNNH's thread that was deleted was not breaking any rules (and I don't want to hear "only one Israel/Palestine thread at one time", because that limits the views on that topic, and it is not in the forum rules, and hell, I never personally agreed to it), and there was no flamebait going on in the thread. A very controversial opinion was shared, and in return, people were agreeing and disagreeing respectfully and a great discussion was brewing. Then here come the moderators with a deletion because somebody cried because "he" felt it was flamebait yet there was no flamebait involved. Oh, and you might see each others actions......after the fact, but once its done.....its done.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 1:34 pm

The decision to remove the mod's individual name was voted on collectively and implemented by Johan.

Then it makes it a little difficult to discuss it with the moderateor, doesn't it Hekpat? Good God.

If you noticed Alpha, I said "if you find our decisions inconsitent". I did not say that they were or they were not. I only meant to point out that disagreements are bound to arise, therefore if you feel we have made a bad decision, you always have the option of emailing us. Thank you for your concern, but we already have our act together.

What kind of mumbo-jumbo is that first sentence? Best I can make it out is that if I see the inconsistency, and you don't, I don't get a reply? That's right neighborly of you, isn't it?

And that last sentence, again, you let a bit of ego come through. I don't think your act is together, but hey, I'm from "The Dark Side", so what does it matter, right?

This is purely a matter of your personal opinion. The fact is, no mod is allowed to do simply what he likes. There're nineteen or so other mods watching over his shoulders.

Yes, and we all know what my opinion counts for on here, right? The fact is, the other mods don't want to do anything if they don't have to, because one day, someone may critisize them, and we don't want that, do we?

If you believe yourself to be part of the "dark side", then maybe you need to examine what you do that puts you there.

I speak my mind, Hepkat. That's all I do. And obviously you, and a lot of others, don't care for that.

I'm getting very tired of repeating myself, but I will indulge you for the final time.

Is that a promise?  Wink/being sarcastic

I go back to a basic point that KROC, myself, and others have made over time-maybe you don't think there is a double-standard on here-and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it's not institutional on here, but I believe it does exist. It exists if you hold certain points of view, and support certain national entities on here-why else would a thread calling Yassir Arafat a "dirtbag" be deleted? Why would a thread saying "The Truth About Saudi Arabia" get deleted? Last time I checked, old Yassir and the House of Saud are not on this website, and insulting them is not a violation of the rules. But the same can't be said if the same thing were said about other people and other nations.

This standard is out there-if one knows enough of the history on here for the last few years, it's undeniable. It's in the fact that anti-American and anti-Israeli threads have been allowed to run on much longer than anti-Euro or anti-Arab threads. I've seen it with my own eyes. Deny it if you want, but it's there, and it won't go away any time soon.

But that won't stop me from enjoying this excellent site that Johan has created. I enjoy it, and I will continue to enjoy it, despite the fact that I don't think my views get a fair shake, and that I'm seen as the Darth Vader of this board.  Smile







 
airlinelover
Posts: 5287
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:03 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 1:40 pm

Alpha 1... If you are Darth Vader- does that make us Jedi? Big grin .... Just curious..  Smile

Chris
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 1:41 pm

Alpha 1... If you are Darth Vader- does that make us Jedi?

No, more like the Ewoks, I think.
 
N751PR
Posts: 1210
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 6:06 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 1:55 pm

I have a feeling that this post will also have more than 200 replies  Big grin. And this now seems like the "why not believe in god" with the corrections and comments making this really interesting............
"Ladies and Gentlemen it's happy hour. You will get two approaches for the price of one."
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 8:58 pm

KROC:You have no idea what that refers too? It wasn't but a couple of hours ago, you used that line in a "personal message" to someone who you deleted their post.

I have no recollection of ever using that line in an email to anyone. Please send me the email in question, as I certain you've probably confused me with someone else.

There seems to be no ability to decipher a "suggest deletion" crybaby/opinion differs from theirs/can't deal with anything that doesn't go their way user, from a legitiment deletion request.

When we receive deletion requests, there's usually a comment by the user that suggested the delete. This can help us to decide what to do with the post, but for the most part the greater part of the decision lies in reading the post, perhaps reading the post before and after it, and then taking it within context. For example, this morning when I got up, there were over 20 delete suggestions, quite a few having to do with you and Alpha. Some users wanted you both banned outright as they felt your constant challenges on this thread were pointless and tedious. Is that a valid reason? No. Can I help the feelings of A.Net users? No. Does this have to do with the reputation you and Alpha have gained over the years through your words and deeds? Yes.

Everyone in the higher positions act like it is the users that are affecting the quality of the forums, when in reality it is a combination of the users and the moderators.

I beg to differ. What little moderating we do pales in comparison to the activities of A.Net users. You should also never forget that the very vast majority of users on this website have absolutely no qualms with us or what we do. They never have their posts deleted, they never need to be admonished and they harbor no feelings of resentment. It's always the same few. This tells me volumes more than any explanation you've previously offered.

TNNH's thread that was deleted was not breaking any rules (and I don't want to hear "only one Israel/Palestine thread at one time", because that limits the views on that topic, and it is not in the forum rules, and hell, I never personally agreed to it), and there was no flamebait going on in the thread.

I've brought up the possibility of restoring this thread. No one seems to disagree, therefore it has been restored.

Then here come the moderators with a deletion because somebody cried because "he" felt it was flamebait yet there was no flamebait involved.

For the last time, a user may believe something to be flamebait but it's ultimately the mod or Johan which makes the final decision. The thread in question was probably a borderline case, which meant there were probably convincing reasons to both justify the deletion and to let it stay. It's very difficult to judge the best course of action for these borderline cases. Sometimes we may have a consensus, other times we are left to our own individual discretions. It's impossible to write guidelines on how to deal with borderline cases.

Oh, and you might see each others actions......after the fact, but once its done.....its done.

The fact that TNNH's thread is restored has disproven your theory. In fact, many a moderator's decision has been reversed in the past.

KROC, I have the feeling that you focus intensely on the more unpleasant aspects of what we do. For you to have said that last line says to me that you're interested in inciting some sort resentment towards us. How on earth could you ever believe that any mod's decision is final? And why would you say a thing like that? It's shamefully false.

Alpha:Yes, and we all know what my opinion counts for on here, right? The fact is, the other mods don't want to do anything if they don't have to, because one day, someone may criticize them, and we don't want that, do we?

Perhaps some of us are unwilling to help you Alpha, because you come off as being so angry all the time. Who wants to expend their energies on someone who'll just end up blowing up in their faces?

I speak my mind, Hepkat. That's all I do. And obviously you, and a lot of others, don't care for that.

Speaking your mind is not what bothers us Alpha, it's HOW you do it.

I go back to a basic point that KROC, myself, and others have made over time-maybe you don't think there is a double-standard on here-and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it's not institutional on here, but I believe it does exist. It exists if you hold certain points of view, and support certain national entities on here

It is true that every mod has their own take on life and personal opinions. I can't speak for everyone, but I personally try to distance myself from my personal opinions and rely on the forum guidelines when moderating. If an error has been made, then we do what we have to do to correct it. Also, this very discussion is being undertaken in an effort to reduce misconceptions and level the playing field.
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 10:03 pm

For example, this morning when I got up, there were over 20 delete suggestions, quite a few having to do with you and Alpha. Some users wanted you both banned outright as they felt your constant challenges on this thread were pointless and tedious. Is that a valid reason? No. Can I help the feelings of A.Net users? No. Does this have to do with the reputation you and Alpha have gained over the years through your words and deeds? Yes.

That right there more or less explained my stance and Alpha's as well. Why should users call for us to be banned outright, when we are civilly discussing issues? It is not pointless and tedious if a change occurs or at a minimum a better understand of each of our sides. Why me and Alpha 1 field so much "suggested deletions" if you will, if because we have the balls to speak up and say things. When we speak up, when we present our opinions, we back them up. We backthem up with well though out takes and or factual evidence as well. When me or Alpha 1 don't agree with Johnny Pup-puller in his thread about why Israel is so evil, and we don't insult or attack, but we do debate and argue, and we do it with knowledge and fact, Johnny can't handle that the fat his opinion is not being agreed upon universally by all involved. The simple fact that you have "emails, 20 or so, many calling for my and ALpha's banishment" is absurd because we have attacked nobody in here. We have presented opinions and the reasons why we feel the way we do. If I was discussing this with a different moderator Hepkat, and you received all those emails.....you would have flown off the handle. Hepkat, give me a reason or two where me and ALpha 1 have done something wrong in this thread...other than challenge the Airliner.net Status quo.

I beg to differ. What little moderating we do pales in comparison to the activities of A.Net users. You should also never forget that the very vast majority of users on this website have absolutely no qualms with us or what we do. They never have their posts deleted, they never need to be admonished and they harbor no feelings of resentment. It's always the same few. This tells me volumes more than any explanation you've previously offered.

Beleive me Hepkat, I have no resentment towards you or anyone else on here, because it's not worth it. This site is an enjoyment, and I am not going to be fired up over people I have never met in real life, and most likely wouldn't anyway. As for the other users you speak of, hey, they are content to follow the status quo here at airliners.net. To each his own. It is all good. I choose to question it, because when I voice my opinion, in a civil, well thought out and well placed manor, and people don't agree with it, I have to hear about how 15 people called for my banishment (garbage), or if I post something about Israel, and my opinion is ripped to shred's by the TNI on the basis of "just because (garbage), or if a post gets deleted that broke no rules, but I can open up the first page of the forum and in about 5 minutes find a handful of similar or worse offending posts......I will say something. Hepkat, if nobody ever says anything, then problems will never be addressed and or fixed. If nobody says anything, the site will plateau and not continue to get better. Surely you are smart enough and mature enough to realize this. I'm guessing you are. As for my line about abuse of power so to speak, I will address that in just a little bit.

I have no recollection of ever using that line in an email to anyone. Please send me the email in question, as I certain you've probably confused me with someone else.

I will contact the user that showed me the email. And here is where that "power goes to your head" statement comes into play. I honestly believe you sent the offending line that I saw. Why? Because you have fed me similar things. I am not trying to attack you or anything. But these make my points seem like they are not so far off into left field. Hepkat, when you posted that email fragment on here, using it against me, that way complete garbage. When I told you to post the whole thing if you were going to use it, you said, and I quote "I decide what the A.net users see". That has stuck with me only because of wrong that is. Other than that classic line, you never addressed it. Not in email, not on the boards when I called you on it. Funny, we are encouraged to email our problems with the moderators, as even you have suggested more than a few times. Yet when we do, as in my case, you take a private email, take only part of it, that paints a poor picture against the user, and you post it in the forum for all to read. I was all over Johan about that. He said he "didn't know if he liked that, and thought it was wrong". Other moderators I talked to over the whole incident thought it was wrong. What kind of policing action did you receive on that Hepkat? Why is it you that "decides what the A.net user sees". Why is it you that can get away with these seemingly important issues. In all reality, at the time of all that, I swore I would never email you out of principle or discuss things with you. Because it's not worth resenting, or holding a grudge, or letting it effect the fact that the site is for learning and enjoyment, I have since long let it go. I am not saying moderators are not allowed to make mistakes. Hey, you guys are just as human as I am (I think  Big grin ) and I don't expect there to be no problems. But knowing and admitting when as a moderator the line may have been crossed is a good thing. Sometimes it appears that the mods (not all) think right or wrong they are above criticism.

The fact that TNNH's thread is restored has disproven your theory. In fact, many a moderator's decision has been reversed in the past.

KROC, I have the feeling that you focus intensely on the more unpleasant aspects of what we do. For you to have said that last line says to me that you're interested in inciting some sort resentment towards us. How on earth could you ever believe that any mod's decision is final? And why would you say a thing like that? It's shamefully false.


Hepkat, TNNH's thread being restored is a rare case, and it is because of the backlash it's deletion has created. Even the issues being discussed in this thread I am sure contributed to it. For the most part, and here is a better explanation of what I meant. For the most part, it is not worth anyone's time challenging every questionable deletion. For the most part, even when you do, providing valid reasons why it should not have been deleted, it will not be brought back. That is not a direct hit against you moderators. Different times zones, the fact people (well most  Big grin ) have other aspects of their lives ect. as you have said don't allow for everything to get the full attention maybe it should. You may say many a moderator's decisions have been reversed, and I am not saying that is true, but for the most part people tend to come up empty when searching for answers why something was deleted or asking for it to be reversed. Way of the world I know, but things like that do happen. As for you saying I only concentrate on the negative aspects of the moderators, why don't you go to the top of the thread, and reread what I said about 174thfwff. I all but proposed marriage to him in my praise of the way he moderates, and suggested that Johan take a look at that, when he is judging the actions of moderators. CPDC10-30 falls into that category as well. Same with VC-10 (I believe that is his name), and a few others. Like you feel, I feel I am being repetitive. I was the first to publicly offer some praise to you moderators as well as state that the users need to cut you guys the proverbial "break". The thing is, nobody has a problem with positive moderating. There is no need to have a long drawn out discussion on the fact 174thfwff "gets it" when it comes to moderating. When there are issues and problems, that's what gets the discussions. Again, it's a sad reflection, when users who speak up like me and Alpha 1 are viewed as "the troublemakers" and are the constant subject to seemingly "change on the fly" policy's. We are not presenting our opinions with a "this is how it is no matter what" style. Especially in this thread that has so many users panties in a bunch. Again, we back up our opinions with thought out reasoning and if needed factual evidence. In a place of discussion and debate, I would never have thought that would constitute as wrong doing. Its the people who are intolerant of other people's views and opinions and cannot discuss them in a civil manor that should be getting the suggest banishment......Oh Wait, its those same people that are calling for me and Alpha 1 to get canned. What a pickle this is huh? That speaks volumes on its own

Hepkat, I am not trying to piss you off, or attack you or anything of that nature. We are discussing things on here in a civil manor from both sides. Something that doesn't happen too often around here. If other users can't see that, that's a them problem, not a me problem. Please don't sit there and read this and think like I have no respect for you, think nothing but negative thoughts about your actions and such. Not true. Simply I am just raising issues and concerns and discussing them. And I know I speak for more than just myself when I do this.

Speaking your mind is not what bothers us Alpha, it's HOW you do it.

ARRRRGHHHHH. Using thought and facts to state your opinion is wrong? Hepkat, have you looked at how 60% of the users on this site present their opinions? They make Alpha and me look like pre-schoolers. Are all of these people encountering the moderator wrath as well?

It is true that every mod has their own take on life and personal opinions. I can't speak for everyone, but I personally try to distance myself from my personal opinions and rely on the forum guidelines when moderating. If an error has been made, then we do what we have to do to correct it. Also, this very discussion is being undertaken in an effort to reduce misconceptions and level the playing field.

I respect your opinion on this matter Hepkat. I may not fully agree with it, but I respect it. Also, your line on the fact this discussion is going down to help reduce misconceptions and level the playing field is good. That is all me and ALpha 1 are trying to do as well. It's called working issues and problems out. Like I sad way up, at least to get a better understanding on each others point of view. What does that say about those "users" emailing in calling for the bannishment of me and ALpha 1. It shows how closed-minded and intolerable those people really are. They are the ones who negatively effect the forums far greater than me, Alpha 1, or anyone else that speaks their minds backing it up with thought and facts. This is the key to several problems. The user way to quick to be intolerable, and bust on that suggest deletion button.

On a side note, I think Hepkat should change his name to "Evoked" because thats what the spell check wants to change his name to!  Laugh out loud
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 10:12 pm

Well I for one am glad to see that this topic has denegrated to normal..... Yeah sure

It was nice while it lasted.

Give it about another month. These things are cyclic.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20594
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Kroc

Sat Jun 22, 2002 10:15 pm

KROC: Hepkat, have you looked at how 60% of the users on this site present their opinions? They make Alpha and me look like pre-schoolers.

Sixty percent?

Well, I must have missed those sixty percent so far...  Big thumbs up
 
flyboy36y
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 1:45 pm

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 10:17 pm

I don't harbor resentment against the mods. I am upset about some things. I made a joke that was a parody of 9/11. Not making fun of 9/11 but just a parody. It was deleted. Well, you know, the psychological trauma of 9/11 really hit me harder than the guy from Nebraska who suggested it be deleted. I saw the towers fall. I cried my eyes out. Now they dare accuse ME of being insensitive?! Look, I like the mods (they have deleted many things tat deserved it), but some of them are too quick to act.
 
flyboy36y
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 1:45 pm

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 10:20 pm

Oh, by the way. For this rule (only on I v P thread at a time), can we have that for soccer too?
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 10:25 pm

Sixty percent?

Well, I must have missed those sixty percent so far...


Klaus. I just yanked that number down in the heat of typing. If you go into threads where points are being argued and debated, you will actually see just how accurate that number could be.....
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 10:28 pm

Why should users call for us to be banned outright, when we are civilly discussing issues?

This is not a question I can really answer. My feeling is that you guys piss off a lot of people by the way you answer/write posts.

...we have the balls to speak up and say things. When we speak up, when we present our opinions, we back them up. We backthem up with well though out takes and or factual evidence as well.

With all due respects KROC, the Zionist A.Net Lobby and THI both claim to do just that. This is a pointless argument if you ask me. Each post has to be judged on its own merit.

When I told you to post the whole thing if you were going to use it, you said, and I quote "I decide what the A.net users see".

What the ...? I have NEVER sent you such an email in my life KROC. If you can't prove this, then I kindly ask that you refrain from such accusations. Such a statement is not a part of my character. Furthermore, I have NEVER sent any email to any user stating "do you know who we are" as you've claimed. Please provide proof, I have no qualms about discussing this on the forums simply because I have never said those things. I'm afraid your memory has failed you in this regard.
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 10:37 pm

I've searched through all my email messages, and I still cannot find the offending phrases, or even fragments thereof.

The last thing I'd want to do is accuse you of fabricating this KROC, but unless you can provide actual emails by me showing where I wrote such a thing, I have no choice but to hold you in doubt.
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 10:56 pm

This is not a question I can really answer. My feeling is that you guys piss off a lot of people by the way you answer/write posts.

Since when is presenting an opinion or a view with well thought out takes, knowledge, and facts offending? Could it be, that people who don't agree with what we are saying, and don't have the capability to use knowledge, reason, and facts to argue simply "Suggest deletion" because that is far easier than actually spending a minute to participate in a quality discussion?

With all due respects KROC, the Zionist A.Net Lobby and THI both claim to do just that. This is a pointless argument if you ask me. Each post has to be judged on its own merit.

Point taken, but those of us that debate both sides seem to get pardon the expression "shit on" allot because of the fact we do not pick sides and or have enough sense to see the rights and wrongs of each side. Hepkat, while each side may "claim" to do so, only those actually reading peoples posts can decide if it is true or not. Again, you seem to be intelligent enough to know who is and who isn't using facts, well thought takes, and knowledge to back up there views in these arguements.

What the ...? I have NEVER sent you such an email in my life KROC. If you can't prove this, then I kindly ask that you refrain from such accusations. Such a statement is not a part of my character. Furthermore, I have NEVER sent any email to any user stating "do you know who we are" as you've claimed. Please provide proof, I have no qualms about discussing this on the forums simply because I have never said those things. I'm afraid your memory has failed you in this regard.

Hepkat, I have an email out, to send me a copy of the email in question. As for my statement, I use Yahoo mail for A.net. I am sorry that I have to clean out my mailbox and that I also do not save envery email from A.net. It may sound like a cop-out, but on my grandmothers grave I swear what statement to be true. I'm sure I am not having a faulty memory, as it may just be conveinent for you to suffer from the same thing right now. What I can say is I will check the few emails I have saved. I think I may have purged them as well, in the interests of not dwelling on stupid things. But I can assure you I sent Johan a long ass email about it, including your statement to me.

The last thing I'd want to do is accuse you of fabricating this KROC, but unless you can provide actual emails by me showing where I wrote such a thing, I have no choice but to hold you in doubt.

Hold me in doubt, as I will hold you in doubt. Actually, upon checking my emails, all I have are the ones where I emailed with Johan. I included your quote in my initial email to him. I apologize, as I was a little off in what i thought you said. Seems I used a little of my own interpratation. My bad, and for that I apologize, but here is your direct quote. I know it to be true, because I made it bold in the email to Johan...

"I posted what I did because it was not necessary for the entre A.Net community to know the nature of our correspondences. It's certainly your perrogative to forward our emails to as many supporters as you'd like, but as for me, I prefer the route of discretion."

In essance, I can forward our emails to whoever, and I did so to maybe 2 or 3 people if that. You decided what the A.net community would see of my personal email to you, and you did this by prefering the "route of discretion". Seriously, how does using a fragment of my email, in the interests of painting me in a bad light on the forums for all to see constitute as discression? You can continue to skirt this issue, but rest assured I am not the only one who saw this.

Here is a quick bit or reasoning as well that I said after I listed your quote.

How can he prefer discression if he is taking parts of my emails and posting them for ANYONE to read? Purely hypocritical. Also, since when does he decide what the A.net community needs to see? So he can make things purely onesided like he did, and we all have to live with it? I had much respect for Hepkat right up until he did that.

Argue this, dispute this, but it has been seen by many. Even up the line as far as Johan. In the interests of personal email, and real discression, I will not post any comments Johan sent back to me. It was a matter that was being handled off the boards. Something you initially could not do, because you posted a fragment of a PERSONAL email. That was a weak move troop, and I'm sure you know it was.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20594
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Kroc

Sat Jun 22, 2002 10:57 pm

KROC: Klaus. I just yanked that number down in the heat of typing. If you go into threads where points are being argued and debated, you will actually see just how accurate that number could be.....

As you may have noticed, I´ve got a certain affinity to threads where "points are being argued".  Wink/being sarcastic

So I know very well that it´s usually just a few people who pump their personal aggression (fed from wherever) into the discussion until everything goes down in flames (or until the "civil" participants actually manage to get the thread back under control).

There´s nobody who didn´t ever contribute something of value somewhere. But some people constantly try to substitute insults and personal aggression for their meager argumentative performance (not just from one side of the spectrum, by the way). At no improvement of their own standing.

It´s completely pointless, leaves everybody annoyed and only degrades the quality of the forums.

After all, moderation is only the last resort of an administrator when the users can´t get the rioting back under control on their own.
 
EGGD
Posts: 11880
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:01 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 11:13 pm

Sure you noticed a change?  Big thumbs up
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 11:16 pm

So now we're finally getting somewhere.

KROC:When I told you to post the whole thing if you were going to use it, you said, and I quote "I decide what the A.net users see".

Then you said:...I apologize, as I was a little off in what i thought you said. Seems I used a little of my own interpratation. My bad, and for that I apologize,

Apology accepted. I do recall the email message in question, the one that you just quoted, but if you noticed, I never said that line you attributed to me. What I chose to do was to use an excerpt of your email to me as I didn't think it was necessary for the entire A.Net community to know the contents of our correspondences. I'm sorry if this still upsets you, but that was my sole justification. One has to know what is appropriate and what is not, there's absolutely no way I'm going to make public all the correspondences I have with each A.Net user. Especially being a moderator, I definitely have to exercise some measure of discretion, which I did in your case. I'm absolutely dumbfounded how you translated that to mean that I meant to decide what A.Net users should and should not see, and to be quite honest, I'm VERY EXTREMELY offended and upset at this false accusation. You've managed to twist and construe an honorable intent on my part into some malicious and dictatorial act. Nevertheless, I accept your apology and will never mention this again.

BTW, Johan has never approached me about your email, maybe he realized what I'd just explained. I also suspect that other accusation from that unnamed user will likewise prove to be untrue.
 
174thfwff
Posts: 2831
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:47 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 11:43 pm

Guys,
This conversation, although with two very different opinions, was kept very civil through out this entire thread. I know this is going to sound lame, but thank you all. This I feel is a very important issue on this site because it has a direct affect on everyone who comes here to these forums. Way to ask questions, thanks for your suggestions. I know that I will be looking at this in more detail as I have only read the good stuff about me, lol. Anyways thanks for your support and keeping this thread very civilized.

-174thfwff (email is in profile, as always, if you want to give other suggestions not listed in this thread. I have had quite a few from users in the past 24 hours or so, and they are all great!"
Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, Staten, Uptown, what now? Lets make it happen.
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: I've Noticed A Change...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 11:46 pm

Hepkat, you continue to SKIRT the issue. I am VERY EXTREMELY OFFENDED that you would decided to take part of MY PERSONAL CORRESPONDANCE with YOU and make it PUBLIC on the forums. Especially when your SOLE INTENT was to paint a bad picture about me. You as a moderator should not have done that. Like I said, that is a weak move. How I got out "you decide what A.net users see" from that qute is simple, and don't act shocked like you don't see where I am coming from. You chose not to make our whole correspondance public, yet you chose to make only part of it public. The part where I can look like a complete A-hole. That is YOU deciding WHAT the A.net community will see. Especially considering it was all personal off the forum messages. I like how you will not answer to the fact you did that. I apologized for misconstruing your original quote, but I stand by my opinions, and for you to act like you did nothing wrong is like Bill Clinton stating "I did not have a sexual relatioship with Monica Lewinsky".

Especially being a moderator, I definitely have to exercise some measure of discretion, which I did in your case.

You did not exercise ONE BIT of discression in my case, because you took a private, personal email to you about a problem, and posted it on the boards. Where I come from, we call that a b*tch move. You being a "moderator" and I will have to use that term loosely should have known better than to do that. Especially when you sit back and preach "email the moderator you have a problem with". Why? So they can cut and past parts of emails and twist up the original meaning and intent? Is that why you say that, because that is exactly what you did. The fact that Johan said nothing to you about that will get him another email, because it is clear there is ZERO policing of the moderators when legitiment problems arise. I talked with other moderators who thought your move was garbage. Checks and balances...doubt it. In a private email, if you *promise not to post in on the forum, I will let you know what Johan said about it. Also, I feel that in both our interests, if we feel the need to continue this discussion, we do so in email, as long as you don't go ahead and post exerpts from my emails to you. Our discussion has broken down from being mostly site related to mostly being personal. I'm sure you would agree.

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