f.pier
Posts: 1405
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I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 10:05 pm

That's my thought.

We are the origin of the world, we produce the best things of the world, except the computers, we have the most beautiful places to visit, in every single European town there is a long history, there are historical objects.
We have many different languages (but with a common root), we are competitive within us and this helps us to have a better quality.
We pretend to be so different, but we like the same things, the same foods, we have the same (good) colture with our small different declinations.

I 'd like to transform the European Union into a Country, a federal country which allows single States to keep their differences.

We can lead the world because we had lots of wars that made us grow and made us understand that they're absolutely unuseful.

We suffered so much in the past because of other separations, but now we're strong, we have a good economy which puts above all the person and not the profits.

Everywhere I go throughout Europe I'm sure to be cured if I go to an hospital, if I broke my leg.

Nodoby will deny health care if I don't have the money in the whole European Union. We have pensions, we have social assistance, but we have the free market which helps us to realize our dreams.

Who cares if the Euro is weak. My life is good, I'm sure my lifestyle is one of the best in the world.

I'm proud to be European.

THE EUROPEAN UNION, MY HOMECOUNTRY.

 
matt86
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 10:17 pm

Now, you are on my respected user list  Smile

I totally agree with your post.
THE EUROPEAN UNION, MY HOMECOUNTRY
 
matt86
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 10:19 pm

Btw, look here: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/184993/
United States Of Europe: What Do You Think?
 
flyboy36y
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 10:21 pm

Fisr of all, I'm not against your Idea.

Second of all,

We are the origin of the world, we produce the best things of the world, except the computers, we have the most beautiful places to visit, in every single European town there is a long history, there are historical objects.
We have many different languages (but with a common root), we are competitive within us and this helps us to have a better quality.
We pretend to be so different, but we like the same things, the same foods, we have the same (good) colture with our small different declinations.


You are an ethnocentric "person". I use person instead of asshole, jerk, or other such words.

 
Hepkat
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 10:24 pm

I've been advocating this for a long time now. When you compare the U.S. to the E.U., we are more efficient precisely because we're federated. I don't buy this argument about individual states losing their culture and way of life, for if you look at the U.S., each state is semi-sovereign, with their own laws, courts, legislature, president, culture, way of life, and even language if they wanted to.

The benefits to federalization overwhelmingly outweigh any disadvantages. Once you get into the U.S., you can freely travel throughout any of the states, where there's a common way of doing things, which means transparency and above all, simplicity. Take for example a simple thing like telephone numbers, here in Europe it's a nightmare. I once had a write an administrative program for a company here in Vienna, and when we got to the telephone area code and number fields in the database, I realized just how having 15 different ways of doing things can cause you a major headache. Telephone numbers here can be as short as 4 digits and as long as, well, who knows? Area codes are sometimes 2 digits, 3 or even 4. There's no uniformity. With a common system, this would save so much money, time and effort.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 10:28 pm

We are the origin of the world...

The ORIGIN of the world? There's a lot of greatness in the history and culture of Europe, but I think you give Europe too much credit here!!

This thread only validates my claim about the Socialist-Leaning EU. It would be a sad, sad day if the nations of Europe completely gave up their national identities for some Steril country call "Europa" or whatever.

 
go canada!
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 10:35 pm

not only are you enthocentric, your arguements are flawed.

'we are the origin of the world' No europe is not, the first humans came from africa.

'we produce the best things in the world, expect the computers'. That is incorrect. Britain produced the first computers during ww2 in order to crack the german communication codes. Britain(indeed scotland) invented the television. Britain invented the telephone, the radio etc etc.

Who invented the aeroplane?

We have langauges with the same root. No we dont. Basque, a language in spain has no similarities with any other language in the world. Celtic (including welsh) has no links with french.

Germanic languages are not the same as latin-based languages not to mention finland and russia who seem to have a seperate language base nor greek which cannot be seen the same as italian for example.

'we pretend to be different' wrong. We are different. We have different cultures. Take britain compared to france for example. France and italy have far more in common than france and britain. The french culture is family based, large families still live together in rural areas. This does not happen in the uk, the uk is farmore americanised than the rest of europe.

the nordic countries have a different outlook on life. Ireland has a different way of life from britain and france. In britain the english are different from the scots and in italy there is a great north-south divide, in fact your country is in in effect two countries in one.

Take sport-The british and french play rugby, the germans dont for example.

the french eat different foods from the spanish, the germans eat different food from the irish.

we are all different cultures and races, we arent the same, that doesnt mean to say we shouldnt have a european union but you cant expect europe to be a single state. We have different vaules, different economies and different ways of life not to mention different laws. Each country serves the needs of its own citizens, those needs cannot be met if the eu was one country.



It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 10:41 pm

No i disagree. Making a EU comparison to the EU is very vague. For a start, the US one big country at the moment, the EU isn't. The EU has many different languages in it, so if it were to become one big country, what would be the default language and who would decide what language to speak? Each EU country has it's own history/culture/lifestyle and way of life. The British culture and style is more geared towards the US, the spanish have their own indentity, the french have their own history and eastern european countries are even more different than western euro nations. So how do you merge all the differences together? A complete nightmare.

The term "European" is very vague indeed, if i said i was African, what would you think? Nigerian? Kenyan? South african? Senegalese? who am i? The same could be said about Europe, am i French? Italian, German or what? How will you identify yourself? calling yourself just "European" gives a false sense of identity. People want to belong to their independent nations, and Europe is a Continent, how would we suddenly turn it into a country?

Arsenal@LHR
In Arsene we trust!!
 
go canada!
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 10:58 pm

hepkat-europe has free travel between its borders, although it did help al-queda in their terrorist plans because they could move freely and unchecked.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
gaut
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Cou

Sun Jun 23, 2002 11:03 pm

EU should have an elected president who speak for all the European countries to balance the USA power, but USA don't want to see such a thing, they are already opposed to the EU army!!


Go Canada!

It's the differences that makes our force...
You says: "Each country serves the needs of its own citizens, those needs cannot be met if the eu was one country."

That's false and egocentric. Europe is based on mutual aid and helped all member countries. All those countries give money to EU but continue to invest money for their own citizen, it's the same in USA!

Alpha 1,

What do you mean by Socialist-Leaning EU?

Do you mean an EU with a high social spirit that help all the citizen?? If yes I'm proud to live in a socialist-leaning EU!!


Gaut
«Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae.»
 
Guest

RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 11:04 pm

If you think merging companies with different cultures and different ways of doing things is a nightmare, merging countries is many times worse. (In both cases, there are only two kinds of mergers: controlled chaos and out-of-control chaos.)

Merging countries requires merging all the components of those countries. You would have to merge everything from education departments to social services to foreign policy to postal service to the individual militaries.

Not to mention you'd have to write a federal constitution that simultaneously pleases everyone without being too cumbersome or complicated, which is a thankless task. You'd have to deal with demands for 'special status' from particular countries. And then there'd be that little matter of electing a European head of state who, at best, might speak only three or four of Europe's many languages.
 
Hepkat
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 11:08 pm

Europeans always tie themselves up in knots when anyone mentions the thought of a single Europe. No one's advocating giving up your culture and way of life. Rather, people are saying it would be better and more efficient to unite as a federated country, like the U.S., comprising of 15 different semi-sovereign states. There's no need to give up your language, cuisine, way of life or anything like that. By having a federalized union, you'd have ONE army, ONE central government (chosen by the different states of course, with representatives who vote), ONE border, ONE immigration policy, ONE system of telephone numbers/addresses/zip codes/social security numbers/identification cards/etc, ONE set of federal laws which covers the most important and basic things, ONE supreme court, ONE aviation authority and its set of rules. Each state could then legislate their own system of taxation, health care, court system, which language to use, transportation or anything that directly affects their citizens on a day to day basis.

I'm convinced the American version of federalized states is by far the best compromise between federal powers and the rights of states.
 
go canada!
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 11:12 pm

gaut,

that is not the case, some countries, eg britain and germany pay more to the eu than they get out of it, other countries such as ireland and portgual recieve more than they pay in.

The needs of britain cannot be the saem as the needs of say spain. Britain is increasing government spendign at a rate that the EU doesnt like. Britain is increasing health care and defensive spending yet a country such as belguim doesnt need a large army etc etc.

The eu has already told ireland off for not stickign to spending rules.

wqhat will you do when you country is stopped from spending money on something it needs or when the interest rates dont suit your economy.

you cannot compare the eu to the usa as the usa was not a collection of centuries old-independent countries.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 11:18 pm

The USA always spoke one language, english, in europe everybody speaks their own language. Do the Italians and Greek want to adopt English as their default langauge if it was decided english would be the federal language? I don't think so.

In Arsene we trust!!
 
Nik
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 11:22 pm

I would love to see the EU as a single country - I certainly feel much more European than Danish...
And so what if we are "different". Only people on the extreme right demand that citizens in a country have to be the same, have to eat the same food and so on.
The EU is making common laws that apply all over the EU - it is a process that at some point will mean that we WILL see a European country - not in the very near future, but in some years, when people learn that their prejudices about other European countries are wrong - and see that we aren't that different where it matters - diversity isn't always a bad thing either.

When I look a my passport it says "Den Europæiske Union" first and THEN "Danmark" - my driver's license has the EU flag on it with "DK" in the middle - and I like it.
We will see a United States of Europe - the biggest question is whether the UK is going to be a part of it - I doubt it...

"You are an ethnocentric "person". I use person instead of asshole, jerk, or other such words."

What F.Pier has said is not much different from what many Americans often say about the US - do you use the same words about them?
 
Hepkat
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 11:22 pm

I think the official language issue is of very minor importance. It should be the very last issue discussed, and that in itself should not prevent EU from federalizing.

Furthermore, if the EU became a federal entity, it would no longer need to extort dues from each member state. It should instead insititute a federal tax on individuals and businesses in order to raise funds for the federal government, as is done in the US. This would immediately do away with this unfair system of some countries contributing more than they get out, and would level the playing field for all.
 
L-188
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 11:31 pm

The USA always spoke one language,

Then how do you explain Boomhauer?:D

Seriously though, the US federal system is not ideal because too much power is given to the central federal government.

The system we have now was favored by Jimmy Madison. He favored a strong central government while Tommy Jefferson favored the rights of the states.

Anyway in order to ensure his ideals where passed Jimmy rigged the timing of the constitutional convention to make sure that Tommy was off serving as the American Ambassador to France during the convention.

When Madison floated the convention he only said that it was to consider amendments to the Articles of Confederation, not for the wholesale destruction and replacement of that important document. All of the delegates showed up in Phillidephia thinking that was all they where going to be doing.

It was only because some of delegates saw through what Jimmy was doing (Thomas Paine walked out the first day saying of Madison and his setup, "I smelt a rat") that any sort of states rights where saved.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
PanAm747
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 11:36 pm

>>We can lead the world because we had lots of wars that made us grow and made us understand that they're absolutely unuseful.<<

Iraq has had a lot of wars, so does that make them a world leader?

The only way a country can become a world leader/super power is its economy.

As referenced here:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2281-304219,00.html

If the EU was to become one, the USA will still be the only economic power in the world.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 11:36 pm

OK, so there have been diferent languages spoken in the US, or different dialects, but for how many people in the US, english isn't their first language?

In Arsene we trust!!
 
Guest

RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 11:39 pm

Hepkat wrote: "This would immediately do away with this unfair system of some countries contributing more than they get out, and would level the playing field for all."

Don't count on it. Here in Canada, we have a 'transfer payment' system in which three or so wealthier provinces subsidize the rest. It creates resentment from time to time, and does more harm to the poorer provinces than the richer ones by taking away the incentive to pursue greater prosperity through policies that encourage wealth creation.

You can bet on a federal Europe having some similar mechanism in place -- the poorer European countries would insist on it in return for their concessions and compromises. With the same resentments and same destructive effects.
 
L-188
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 11:41 pm

Along the Mexican border....quite a bit.

There are also a lot of people out in the bush up here who speak, Athabaskan, Inupiat, or Aleutiq instead of english as their first language.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Jaspike
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 11:46 pm

There would be no Euro 2004...

Bad idea. Well, I wouldn't like England/Britain/UK to be in it. Countries in Europe are losing there individuality. There would be no PM's/Presidents/Royal Families. It would be interesting if there was a civil war..Or maybe not Smile/happy/getting dizzy

There are loads of other reasons why I think the EU shouldn't be one country, but I can't be bothered to type them all at the moment Big thumbs up

Josh
 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
TechRep
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 11:46 pm

I agree with this but the language spoken must be French or they will never go along with it.

TechRep
 
f.pier
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 11:53 pm

Matt, I've read your thread link and I totally agree with you.

Somebody says that latin languages and german languages are so different, OK, I agree, but many words are the same, and then, consider that there are a lot of different languages which are mixtures of languages.

In the place where I live, in Italy, we obviously speak italian, but in my dialect there are a lot of german and french words and also the grammar is quite different from italian.

I don't see the problem: the most of young people speak english (I'd prefer to speak german, but this is only my personal opinion).

Maybe there is a problem. YES, I agree, The European Union has a BIG problem. It's name is: UNITED KINGDOM.

You wanna slow down the process of integration, you don't want the single currency, you don't want a lot of things.... why?

I can understand you're an island and you like to be isolated, but please, if you wanna integrate yourself with us, DO IT and don't be so boring (I'd like to have the UK in the EU Country), but if you DON'T WANT, say it now and let us free to reach our target, the building of the COUNTRY.

Feel free to do what you want, but once you've chosen, DON'T argue with us if we wanna get integrated or if we wanna have the same fiscal system.

Nik says a lot of good things: i feel proud, too when I look at my passport and first of all I see "European Union".

I hope Denmark to join Euro as soon.

When somebody says that we eat different food he's right, but the differences aren't so strong, for example the basic foods are the same, we use the same cereals, the same vegetables, the same fruits, the same meats.

We hate the same foods, I think everybody in the EU doesn't eat dogs!!!!!!

The sports? OK, OK we play different sports, but WE ALL PLAY AND LOVE FOOTBALL and the most common sport in the whole EU is definitely FOOTBALL (that's why I'd like so much to see Germany win the World Championship....).

I don't say to refuse your origin, it would be a mistake. But be conscious that the European Union is the best place on Earth where to live.

I love the idea of United States of Europe.

I'd like to have a common President, I'd like to have an EUropean Ambassy all over the world (why there still are so many European different embassies around the World). In fact we can already go in one of the EU members Embassy if we have problems if there isn't the own country embassy, but I'd like to have a single embassy.

I hope to see my beloved USE active in my life.

Thank you



 
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yyz717
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Sun Jun 23, 2002 11:59 pm

The EU may become a country, but it's too soon. The EU is still a work in progress, still expanding. If it ever stops growing and stays static for a period of time, it could gel its various national institutions etc along the lines of a country. But this is probably at least a generation away.

If anything, the continued expansion of the US by admitting peripheral European countries will only encourage the EU to remain at best a loose federation at best.

IMHO
Neil
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
racko
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 12:15 am

At first, the EU has to be fair! Some countries gain much money and power through the EU (like France), while other countries lose money through the EU and don't have the power in the EU they deserve (due to their number of inhabitants and economic power). As long as it stays this way, you will never have the acceptance you need to found one united country. Another example, the 2 official languages of the EU are English and French, but there are more people in the EU who have German as their native language than people with English or French as their native languages. And with the new members it will get even worse, Germany has to pay for farmers in Estonia or wherever...
 
gaut
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Cou

Mon Jun 24, 2002 12:34 am

I'll take an example that I know well: Belgium

We live in a federal country with 3 regions and 3 official languages!
The federal gov collect money and distribute a part of it to the regions.
The competences are shared; The Federal gov is in charge of the defense, health, foreign affairs ... and the regional gov is in charge of the education, culture ...
Even if it's a little bit complicate it's working! We are living together without major problem in comparison with Basque problem in Spain and France or religious conflict in Ireland

Belgium or Switzerland are mini EU, and the big one could adopt this system giving the countries a kind of freedom. Countries will not loose their culture or language because of the EU !!!!

Yes, Go Canada!, UK give more and receive less money from EU than Greece or Portugal but that's solidarity! One day you give and another day you receive. In Belgium Wallonia was the richer region and gave more money to the state than Flanders. Today it's the opposite! Once again that's SOLIDARITY.

Anyway, I think we all agree to say that UK is a break for the EU construction! They will have to chose soon between USA and EU.

Gaut
«Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae.»
 
David_itl
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 12:50 am

Slightly ironic that we have someone deciding that 1 big country is best when we have had the former Soviet Union break up into it's constituent republics, and the conglomeration that was Yugoslavia fall apart with nationalism breaking out all over the place.

How many countries are to be in at the creation - only those with the Euro, those in the EU, those in the EU+EFTA or those in the EU + all EU-applicant countries? I just can't see this single-state lasting more than 2 generations at best when nationalism will occur, and the "single-state" becomes once again a collection of free-trading individual nation states.

The European Union does not have a problem in the United Kingdom. It has a problem that each country chooses to follow what EU legislation it likes e.g. the French refusing to sell British beef even though it's been told to lift the restrictions.

You can have your tiddlywinks as currency; there are far more European countries WITHOUT the tiddlywink than with it; did you actively get a chance to vote on whether you wanted it or not, or was it decided for you? Where I work (a translation agency) pay one of our German translators in Euros. Can anyone please explain why he's being charged €20 by the German banks for "handling" charges when we have specifically set up a Euro account? I'm glad there's a single currency which stops these charges  Big grin

If you can come up with a list of points were political union makes sense then you might convert me

David/MAN
 
Cyril B
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:01 am

I don't care if a unified EU could be as powerful as the US... This is not the goal of the EU construction. If the british are unhappy or if they want to leave the union, so i hope they'll do it. We cannot longer accept to give power (in the european institutions) to "half-members" who don't know what they want to do.

The only thing i'm sure, it is that there is in europe more and more people who wants to push the construction of the EU to live in a real and unified country in some years or decades. I hope we'll see that european country in the future.

Alpha: pleeeease stop boring us with crap like "socialist-leaning EU"...
It's simply ridiculous.
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:27 am

"'we produce the best things in the world, expect the computers'. That is incorrect. Britain produced the first computers during ww2 in order to crack the german communication codes. Britain(indeed scotland) invented the television. Britain invented the telephone, the radio etc"

Is that how ignorantly they teach you over there? The Polish cracked enigma first of all. Secondly, i can name millions of products you guys cant make.

"Britain invented the telephone, the radio etc" Right Alexander Graham Bell invented the phone here, and Marconi invented the Radio, and thats Italy. Stop saying crap like that. Just shows how uneducated you are
 
Nik
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:41 am

"I hope Denmark to join Euro as soon."

So do I  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
The latest Gallup polls show that 60% of the Danes support joining the Euro, so we'll just have to see when we can have the next referendum.

"Slightly ironic that we have someone deciding that 1 big country is best when we have had the former Soviet Union break up into it's constituent republics..."

Do you think it is completely fair to compare the EU to the Soviet Union?

 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:28 am

Is that how ignorantly they teach you over there? The Polish cracked enigma first of all. Secondly, i can name millions of products you guys cant make.

"Britain invented the telephone, the radio etc" Right Alexander Graham Bell invented the phone here, and Marconi invented the Radio, and thats Italy. Stop saying crap like that. Just shows how uneducated you are

And please don't start silly flame wars and accusations, we've had enought of that.

thank you
Arsenal@LHR
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Banco
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:32 am

OK, to try to assess this idea rationally, you need to go back to the Treaty of Rome, which espoused the idea of "ever increasing union", so it is hardly a novel idea.

The issue of language and culture is a major hurdle, but not necessarily an insurmountable one. Bigger problems arise when the attitude of the peoples and governments are examined. Whilst there has been a group of people who have subscribed to the view that Europe would benefit from proper unity, that hasn't been the opinion of nations throughout the history of the European Steel and Coal Community through to the present EU. Individual nations and governments have always been out for their own interests, which is of course what you would expect from sovereign states. Looked at today, no-one would argue that France or Germany (the core of the EU) do anything except look after themselves. There is no real drive to act in the best interests of the whole.

Political frameworks are another issue. What political system and form of bureaucracy and justice would be used? Certainly the federal German system has little in common with the unitary French or British one, whilst the inquisatorial continental system of justice is very different from the adversarial British/Irish/American one. There would have to be winners and losers and the outcome would undoubtedly involve a massive change for all peoples in many areas.

Foreign affairs are a key example of where the EU does not speak with one voice. The EU Rapid Reaction Force is militarily a joke, and there is no way that the EU has the cohesiveness and political will to act together. The EU's supine response (as opposed to that of individual EU nations) to the Sept 11th episode is merely a case in point.

There is also little immediate desire for such a "superstate" throughout the peoples of the EU.

Nevertheless, whilst there is little inclination for such a dramatic move forward, it is true that the last few years have seen the EU becoming increasingly important in its own right. Even so, recently we have seen the Council of Ministers take back much power from an increasingly bypassed and ossified Brussels bureaucracy. There is a power struggle going on here, and no-one but a fool would predict its outcome.

The Euro is a key issue, because its success will force the member nations to pool sovereignty to a much greater degree than is currently the case. Whether you are in favour or not, the failure of the Euro is a prospect to fill all Europeans with dread.

A superstate may happen, but there have been increasing signs that the politicians have run some way ahead of the population of Europe. Hostility has been increasing, not just within the traditionally EU-loathing people of the UK, but across the continent too. It is noticeable that the far right parties, for whom there has been increased support, are uniformly anti-EU.

It remains possible, but forcing the pace would be unwise. If it is to happen, it will happen slowly, as increasing inter-dependence make the prospect appealing rather than appalling. It may be that we will see precursors through individual nations joining together first, but the "Balkanisation" over the last few years throughout the world suggests that the idea of "big" states is not as attractive to a populus already feeling estranged from government as the mandarins might like to think.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20594
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Banco

Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:22 am

Banco: Individual nations and governments have always been out for their own interests, which is of course what you would expect from sovereign states. Looked at today, no-one would argue that France or Germany (the core of the EU) do anything except look after themselves. There is no real drive to act in the best interests of the whole.

If that were the case, Germany as the largest net contributor would certainly never have joined.  Insane


Banco: There would have to be winners and losers and the outcome would undoubtedly involve a massive change for all peoples in many areas.

No. For most people, next to nothing would change. The "islanders" would probably be affected the most, that much is true. But even now, britons can (and do) appeal to the european courts. Without the earth stopping in its tracks.


Banco: Foreign affairs are a key example of where the EU does not speak with one voice. The EU Rapid Reaction Force is militarily a joke,

It´s already a few years old and it still doesn´t work as well as the deeply entrenched national systems! What a shame! Big grin

Banco: and there is no way that the EU has the cohesiveness and political will to act together. The EU's supine response (as opposed to that of individual EU nations) to the Sept 11th episode is merely a case in point.

If you haven´t been on visit to your relatives at alpha centauri at the time, you might have noticed that there´s no basis for that claim. The recent unified response to the US steel tariffs and other initiatives demonstrated quite well where we´re going.


Banco: The Euro is a key issue, because its success will force the member nations to pool sovereignty to a much greater degree than is currently the case. Whether you are in favour or not, the failure of the Euro is a prospect to fill all Europeans with dread.

Well... to quote from Apollo 13: "Failure is not an option!"
I think we´re beyond that point by now. There will be troubles, but even the US Dollar has it´s problems. So what?


Europe will not become something exactly like the US or like any of its member states are now. I´m pretty certain, though, that a "reasonable" unification up to a point will happen and I welcome it. Different cultures and political "breathing room" for the member nations will remain a necessity. But on the other hand, the common bond will be strengthened without necessarily weakening the members.
 
Banco
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:40 am

I think you misunderstand me, Klaus. That wasn't a particularly anti-EU post, it was merely pointing out the dangers and difficulties inherent in engaging in a project as difficult and hazardous (even if you agree with it) as creating a single state out of the EU.

As for some of your responses:

If that were the case, Germany as the largest net contributor would certainly never have joined.

I'm not saying that some of the ideals aren't followed, merely that national interest takes precedence. The example of France is a good one, their intention is to create the EU in their own image, which of course is what any nation state would seek to do. Equally, Germany has prevented many attempts to liberalise the power market because it is not in their interests. I'm not criticising, merely stating a fact. Any government's responsibility is to those that elected them, so in order for a European ideal to emerge, they have to lay that aside. A very difficult thing to do, particularly if the elctorate then scream because the government isn't protecting their interests.

No. For most people, next to nothing would change. The "islanders" would probably be affected the most, that much is true. But even now, britons can (and do) appeal to the european courts. Without the earth stopping in its tracks.

Again, perfectly true. But people will make use of the institutions in place, regardless of whether they agree with them. It doesn't necessarily mean that they desire a more "European" solution. I'm sure that Britons would prefer to deal with a British court, if only because it is less expensive and time-consuming.

It´s already a few years old and it still doesn´t work as well as the deeply entrenched national systems! What a shame!

I'm not saying it is or it isn't. It's just the way it is. To be honest, that's just a snide remark. I expect better from you.  Big grin

If you haven´t been on visit to your relatives at alpha centauri at the time, you might have noticed that there´s no basis for that claim. The recent unified response to the US steel tariffs and other initiatives demonstrated quite well where we´re going.

An interesting point. The respons to the US steel tariffs was because the interests of all EU nations were challenged. In such circumstance of course they will (and should) act together. It is where interests diverge that the problems begin.

Well... to quote from Apollo 13: "Failure is not an option!"
I think we´re beyond that point by now. There will be troubles, but even the US Dollar has it´s problems. So what?


Any new currency is fragile. The Euro is more so because economic union is not backed by political union. As a result the markets are uneasy. The stability pact has been kicked into touch, and the actions of the central bank can be anaethema to certain states. It is possible to create a scenario that would result in the failure of the Euro. I'm not advocating it, but the fact that it could happen is the problem. Hence why I say that economic union must necessarily be backed by political union. Then there is no going back. And that is in itself the problem.

Europe will not become something exactly like the US or like any of its member states are now. I´m pretty certain, though, that a "reasonable" unification up to a point will happen and I welcome it. Different cultures and political "breathing room" for the member nations will remain a necessity. But on the other hand, the common bond will be strengthened without necessarily weakening the members.

I doubt you'd find too much argument there. But whilst it sounds pretty, it is effectively meaningless, as it could be undertood as a common market or a full blown political union. Have you been spending too much time with Romano Prodi?  Big grin
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Cou

Mon Jun 24, 2002 6:08 am

That is incorrect. Britain produced the first computers

Ahem, incorrect, too. It is widely accepted that Konrad Zuse invented the computer:
http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/Zuse.html

The first Personal Computer, however, came from the US.

Regards,
NoUFO

PS: ethnocentric? Yes and arrogant, too.
I support the right to arm bears
 
avion
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 6:08 am

I just wanna say that if the EU becomes one single nation i can see it last. Just look at Switzerland with several different cultures and it we've been here since 1291.

Tom
 
Alpha 1
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 9:42 am

Maybe there is a problem. YES, I agree, The European Union has a BIG problem. It's name is: UNITED KINGDOM.

Far as I can tell, they're about the only European country with a lick of sense these days. It will be a cold day in hell when the U.K. gives up its soverignty and its currency to some utopian, socialist-leaning state like "Europa".

Alpha: pleeeease stop boring us with crap like "socialist-leaning EU"...
It's simply ridiculous.


Cyril, I'm not here to entertain you, I'm sorry to say. It's what I believe. If you're all so eager to give up you long-held national identities for "Europa", then you're not much better than the Old Soviet Union-another "country" that was made up after a bunch of individual nations were forced to give up their independence to joing this "Union". The only difference-and it is a big one-is that no one will force any other nation in Europe to join this Union, if it comes to pass. At least, I don't think a unified government in Europe would ever follow the U.S.S.R in to forcing any nation that does not want to join in to the Union.

In a past thread on here-I think it was on here-someoene mentioned that the EU was just trying to emulate the U.S. There's one huge difference. With the exception of Texas for a short time, none of the American states were ever soverign entities, never had a national identity or history; never had their own unique language. I honestly think the parallels are closer to the U.S.S.R. than the U.S.





 
sccutler
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 12:09 pm

History is a good teacher. If the time comes when Europe is united as one country, I believe it will be known (or at least effectively dominated) as "Germany."

(Ducks to avoid flying debris...)
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
Guest

RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 1:41 pm

It's just like getting all Star Alliance members merged into a GIGANTIC airline!
 
paulc
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:43 pm

English first
British second

european - last

English First, British Second, european Never!
 
airblue
Posts: 1785
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:24 pm

"Britain invented the telephone, the radio etc"

Both were invented by two Italian:

The radio by Marconi.
Telephone by Meucci, but his idea was stolen by Alexander Graham Bell (also last week it was talked about it on all the main world newspaper after the US congress recognized that Bell stole the Meucci invention.)
 
Guest

RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 6:00 pm

Alpha 1 wrote:

>>If you're all so eager to give up you long-held national identities for "Europa"...


 Yeah sure Who's giving up their national identities, Alpha 1? If you read what the supporters of closer EU integration have written, most believe that these countries can integrate WITHOUT giving up their identities.

I happen to believe that "national identity" is defined by things such as cuisine, culture, language, tradition, etc. And those elements certainly won't go away because of the EU. Quite the opposite: A closely-bound Europe will give a person in Germany easy access to culture from, say, Spain. You fail to realize that "national identity" just isn't defined by things such as currency. There's far more to these countries than that.


Alpha 1 wrote:

>>Far as I can tell, [the British are] about the only European country with a lick of sense these days. It will be a cold day in hell when the U.K. gives up its soverignty and its currency to some utopian, socialist-leaning state like "Europa".


Do they really have more sense, Alpha 1, or is a certain portion of their population just displaying their proverbial "insularity" and distrust of the Continent? I certainly don't think that the British should be forced to remain in a closely-integrated EU but, as some other posters have suggested, Britain shouldn't have the right to slow other countries' integration just because of its "Euro-skepticism" (which is very often based on emotion, rather than sound arguments).

As far as your comments about the "socialist" EU, Alpha 1: It doesn't cease to amaze me that you keep attacking the EU, even though you have seen very little of it, don't know it well at all, and are certainly not affected by it on a day-to-day basis.

Shouldn't you listen to what the Europeans have to say about it (people who actually live in Europe, and are affected by the EU every day)? Not everything they say will be pro-EU, but I'm willing to bet that most of it will be far more informed that your rhetoric about the Soviet-like EU and other nonsense. Of course, there are also many Americans who know the EU well, but you're not one of them, Alpha 1. NY Times columnist Thomas Friedman is a staunch supporter of capitalism and globlaization -- yet he considers himself a fan of the "socialist-leaning" EU. Weird, isn't it?  Smile

It's easy to have an agenda, but far more difficult to come up with an informed opinion.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 9:50 pm

Who's giving up their national identities, Alpha 1? If you read what the supporters of closer EU integration have written, most believe that these countries can integrate WITHOUT giving up their identities.

PHX-LJU, this thread is talking about making ONE great big, gigantic country-how is that NOT giving up national identity? You CANNOT form a new country without giving up the identity you once had, it simply cannot be done, else the new country really won't work. You can keep some traditions, this is true, but you'll lose the distinctiveness that is a national culture to serve a new culture, in my opinion.

Do they really have more sense, Alpha 1, or is a certain portion of their population just displaying their proverbial "insularity" and distrust of the Continent?

That's exactly why they have more sense, PHX-LJU!! You hit it right on the head! Plus the U.K. is much more closely aligned-socially. language-wise, and common history-wise, with the U.S. and Canada than they are with the continent of Europe.


Britain shouldn't have the right to slow other countries' integration just because of its "Euro-skepticism" (which is very often based on emotion, rather than sound arguments).


How can the U.K. slow it down? If they drag their feet, then the rest of Europe should tell them "it's been nice knowning you", and go on with what they want to do. It shouldn't slow Europe down at all.

As far as your comments about the "socialist" EU, Alpha 1: It doesn't cease to amaze me that you keep attacking the EU, even though you have seen very little of it, don't know it well at all, and are certainly not affected by it on a day-to-day basis.

Again, I'm not here for your pleasure, my friend. Maybe I have seen very little of it, but I'm an educated person, and I can make my opinions. And, in my estimation, if a bunch of independent nations with long histories and identities are headed in that direction, it just confirms what I believe. Why is that such a crime on here?





 
Matt D
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 9:52 pm

For all of you that are saying ONE this, ONE that, ONE blah-blah-blah.

Do any of you Europeans remember the following phrase, and what happened thereafter?

Ein Volk
Ein Reich
Ein Führer


Do we really need to take it any further?
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 9:59 pm

There are tendencies in the legal community which opine that the EU is already a country of its own right. They argue the EU fulfils all the classic conditions for statehood.
Quite difficult to argue against that.

Daniel Smile
 
David_itl
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:10 pm

Daniel

Do they list the conditions for statehood so that the ordinary person can work out for themselves whether the EU is already a "country"?

David
 
go canada!
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:19 pm

im sorry but no britain had the first computers and we cracked engima (see history of station X, bletchley park, without the uk german communications would have been kept secrect).The poles built a replica machine with the help of the british and only because it was poles were in the factories that were making them.

Attmepts were made by the poles to crack the machine in the 1920s, yet it was bletchley park that was at the forefront of cracking the engima codes and while the poles designed something resembling a computerised system, the Colossus machine was the first computer.

now onto the radio, theories on radio waves and communication and the development of the radio involved more than just marconi. Its interesting to note that a british town, chelmsford claims to be the birth place of radio.

Regarding the eu becoming one federal state i still dont see any logical arguement being made as to why this should occur other than the fact that the EU exists therefore a country should do to.

the eU was set up as a trading bloc that developed further and for good reason too, the countries of europe do have some similarities yet they also have differences which outweigh them. The eu needs to be reformed to allow it to be accountable to its people so that countries that share common goals can work towards them.That is the idea of europe, not a single state.

A one size fits all policy cannot work with europe, every attempt at having a superstate in europe fails due to nationalism.If when people in europe settled they had decided to be one country then that may have just worked, yet as we can see with the greeks and the romans, it fails.

The difference between the usa and europe is that when the us was founded it was based on defending their interests against the british, the country developed because the extent of nationalism did not exist nor did each area have their own complex economy.

the economy of greece is different from the economy of germany, each european country have different priorities. No doubt some will say 'ah but texas must be different from new jersey and you still have the states etc etc ', yet that arguement doesnt wash because new jersey and texas still share common goals and at the end of it an american is an american.

europeans are not the same as other europeans.

its a nice idea for a superstate, yet it is based upon nobel ideas that do not hold up in the real world.

closer eu intergration does not mean a single european country!!!!!!!
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
G-KIRAN
Posts: 710
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:41 pm

First I would like to sort something out about who invented the computer.Remember in the year 2000 Time produced a series of magazines called the Time100?One of them was entitled Time100:Greatest scientists and Thinkers and in there it states that the whole idea of a machine that could "mimic human reasoning" was thought up by a BRITISH person by the name of Alan Turing.Then it features a caption on "Who built the first computer" and it includes Turing and many others but does not come down to a final conclusion.Timewarner also did a TV series as well and Bill Gates was invited to talk about Alan Turing and this was what he said(or something along these lines):"Computers are essentially Turing Machines"
Here is the time100 article:http://www.time.com/time/time100/scientist/profile/turing.html

Just wondering can that machine that British inventor Charles Babbage came up with to perform caluclations be considered as a computer.What about the Chinese abascus?

So really the whole development of the computer is mostly(if not completly!) American and partly British and German(Konrad Zose).Incindently it was a Brit how came up with the World Wide Web:Tim Berners Lee.
http://www.time.com/time/time100/scientist/profile/bernerslee.html

Going back to the original post:
We are the origin of the world, we produce the best things of the world, except the computers, we have the most beautiful places to visit, in every single European town there is a long history, there are historical objects.
We have many different languages (but with a common root), we are competitive within us and this helps us to have a better quality.


This has to be one of the stupidest statements I have ever read:"Europeans are the origin of the world"-LOL. Nuts"We have the most beutiful places to visit"-ok fine,some of the most beautiful places to visit are outside Europe,I dont really think Mont Blanc can really compare to K2 or Everest."...long history...historical objects..."-So does every other single country in the world.

Maybe there is a problem. YES, I agree, The European Union has a BIG problem. It's name is: UNITED KINGDOM.

We cannot longer accept to give power (in the european institutions) to "half-members" who don't know what they want to do.

Sure we might be an island but at the end of the day it is OUR country NOT yours,it is OUR land NOT yours and it is US who in the end will decide OUR future,whether it may be in the EU or Alpha Centuari.Look if you Europeans think we are holding you back then just go on without us or dont you lot have the guts to kick out your 2nd(or 3rd) largest economy out?So end the end it is down to US not YOU who will decide what role we will play in the EU.If we dont want remain,then fine we will leave and the path we will take will be what we think will be the best for us NOT for you.

Judging by the language that F.pier and Cryil use it seems that the whole of France and Germany are really angry with us!Oh my!!But dont bother crossing the channel with your troops to enforce EU law because that wont work either. Wink/being sarcastic

So going on to a common EU identity.The UK is by far the most diverse country in the EU and its one of the few countries in the EU in which far right wing parties(ie Le Pen type) dont even have a single seat in parliament and also dont have control of ANY constituancy.Now look at Le Pens party in France,look at Emberto Bossi's Northern League(NL) in Italy.Come to think of it even Italy is not really that united because the people from the north look donw on the people from the south(Il Mezzogiorno) because their poorer and because alot of their taxes go to the south etc etc.So how will someone like me(non-white) fit into Europe?I bet if I go to somewhere in Munich,Athens or Rome and tell people I am British I will be laughed out of sight.Now imagine if I tell the same people that I am European,well they might die laughing!

Do you Europeans know who Mira Hindly is?She killed 8 young children and was given a life sentence in the 1970s.Now it seems that lately the EU wants her to be released because the sentence in breach of "her rights as a human".The British government wants to keep her behind bars forever but it cant because our good friends in the EU say that someone who deprived 8 young children of the most basic of human rights(the right to live) must not have her human rights taken away .Sick!These are some of the reasons why most Brits are not to keen on full EU intregration-just stop sticking your nose into affairs which you have no right to be interested in!

Oh and can you please tell the French to allow to British beef into their country-opps,oh yes,the EU lifted the ban on British beef,but the French still refuse to allow British beef to be sold.But dont the French(the most "loved" of all the EU countries) have to obey orders from the head shed or are they exempted from it?Could you please tell us why Spain supported Argentina in the Falklands conflict?Why we have to give back Ginbralter while the Spanish can keep their territories in North Africa and while France is also allowed to keep theirs in South America?Also since after Germany we are the largest source of cash for the EU to carry out development projects in the poorer countries,could we at least get something back in return?Nien und/et Non!!!!!

 
go canada!
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RE: I Think The European Union Should Become A Country

Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:57 pm

G-kiran, thanks for talking sense, its an excellent post.

The countries of the eu take a pick and mix approach to what they like and dont like, you cant run a country like that!

For f.pier to suggest europe should be one country when his own is really two countries in one is a little hypocritical.

and for all europeans to suggest they recieve free healthcare is laughable!
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit

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