PANYNJ
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UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 1:29 am

"....Why is Arab culture, why are Arab countries lagging behind?"

A blunt new report, The Arab Human Development Report 2002, by Arab intellectuals commissioned by the United Nations warns that Arab societies are being crippled by a lack of political freedom, the repression of women and an isolation from the world of ideas that stifles creativity.

The report notes that while oil income has transformed the landscapes of some Arab countries, the region remains "richer than it is developed."

Per capita income growth has shrunk in the last 20 years to a level just above that of sub-Saharan Africa.

Productivity is declining.

The use of the Internet is low. Research and development are weak or nonexistent. Science and technology are dormant.

Filmmaking appears to be declining. Intellectuals flee a stultifying — if not repressive — political and social environment, it says.

The authors also describe a "severe shortage" of new writing and a dearth of translations of works from outside. "The whole Arab world translates about 330 books annually, one-fifth the number that Greece translates," the report said.

Arab women, the report found, are almost universally denied advancement. Half of them still cannot read or write.

The maternal mortality rate is double that of Latin America and four times that of East Asia.

Rima Khalaf Hunaidi, director of the United Nations Development Program's Arab regional bureau and the driving force behind the survey, said in an interview in her New York office. "There were some very scary signals that were specific to Arab countries and not other regions."

-------------------------------------------

Sad but expected, I can't say I'm surprised at all.
 
david b.
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 1:59 am

I say cut support to all ME countires including Israel. All ME countries are sucking up our money and give us nothing in return.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
PANYNJ
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:05 am

You better not be one of those Jews that does nothing but bash arabs

My religion is irrelevant. This report was written by Arabs, not me pal.

I say cut support to all ME countires including Israel.

Just like how we treated Europe after WW1. That did wonders for the world.  Pissed
 
david b.
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:15 am

We need money right now........Those countries can support themselves.

Tell me why we need to sent them money? They give us nothing in return.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
Klaus
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:37 am

Very sad, but it seems to be consistent with what´s happening visibly in the region.

I think it isn´t a question of money in this case, it´s a question of leadership. Or more accurately, the lack of leadership.

When those in power are not interested in education and development, it´s no wonder the fanatics will find fertile ground and wreck what´s left of a once great culture.
 
prosa
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:45 am

I think it isn´t a question of money in this case, it´s a question of leadership. Or more accurately, the lack of leadership.

Quite true. Yet that merely begs the question of why the Arab world has so consistently failed to develop competent leadership. Something must be causing that, I for one would be very interesting in knowing what it is.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
david b.
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:46 am

<<==  Big thumbs up
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
david b.
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:47 am

But thats where we get our oil from.......we have to kiss their butt so we don't have to pay high oil prices for our status-symbol SUVs  Big thumbs up
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
GDB
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:56 am

There was a very interesting, and somewhat disturbing report from inside Saudi in today's Guardian.
It's on-line here, long but worth a look;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,747596,00.html
 
PANYNJ
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 3:29 am

We need money right now........Those countries can support themselves.

We've got money, but as the world's sole superpower we also have a responsibility and obligation to the rest of the worst to help those that can't help themselves. I think investing in the Arab world and helping them to see American goals and ideals as consistant with their own is an investment in our future and smart strategy. I think peace and prosperity in that region only helps the United States that much more. It is in the US' best interest.

I think it isn´t a question of money in this case, it´s a question of leadership. Or more accurately, the lack of leadership.

I agree, but I think by "money", David simply meant help and assistance, which afterall cost money. With US help and assistance, we can improve the Arab world and set their goals and aspirations in a more consistant pattern with our goals and apsirations, which largely are the world's: freedom, peace, security, co-operation, and tolerance.

tnnh lives on!
 
qatarairways
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 3:48 am

Putting all-Arab nations into one block for a comparision is not fair. What if a report comes out that says that the America's are very poor. Sure for example Nicaragua is one of the poorest nations while you have the USA and Canada up North which are much more advanced.

The same thing occurs here as the Arab world is varies tremendously. You have some countries with political freedom some without. Some have "western" women's rights some not. The world's fastest growing economy is Arab (Qatar) but you also have some with poor declining economies (Somalia).

"Filmmaking appears to be declining"

This also varries tremendously. For example Egypt has a film per capita rate much higher than many Western Countries including the U.S. while other have virtually no films at all (Somalia)

Same goes with education, reasearch and technology which are taking bug strides in some of the Arab countries (e.g. Qatar, UAE, Lebanon and Jordan) while some have very few educational facilities and technological advancement (Somalia, Dijibouti etc...)

So overall just comparing a group of people based on a shared language is useless and pointless. It is just like saying Spanish speaking people (Thier is Spain and thier is Latin America which vary greatly) are less educated than English speaking people.

Regards,
QatarAirways
 
prosa
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 3:48 am

There was a very interesting, and somewhat disturbing report from inside Saudi in today's Guardian.
It's on-line here, long but worth a look;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,747596,00.html


Very interesting story, thanks for posting the link.
I'd say that the U.S. has got to start planning for the day when Saudi Arabia is an enemy rather than a friend. I fear that day's coming soon, as Prince Abdullah can't be counted on to hold things together forever (while the "Prince" title creates an impression of youth, he's actually close to 80). This planning means a serious program of gasoline conservation, an intensified search for other sources of petroleum, and an attempt to find other countries that will host American armed forces.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
qatarairways
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 3:56 am


PROSA
"and an attempt to find other countries that will host American armed forces."

*Unfortunetly* to me this has already happened. In Qatar for example the US has taken a huge base with one of the largest Runways in the world which originally was constructed for our Air Force. The U.S. has already moved truck loads of equipment to this base from Saudi Arabia. Up to 30,000 Americans will be moved to here also representing. Considering there are about 150,000 Qatari this number is large.
 
khi747
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 4:25 am

I cant believe the number of people on this forum who have absoluetly nothing to do in life but to find anti-muslim/arab articles and post it on this forum........its staggering how many posts like this we have here..
As for the topic itself.....i dont know where the f**k you got it from....but many things do not make sense....
Per capita income growth has shrunk in the last 20 years to a level just above that of sub-Saharan Africa.
No doubt per capita income has decreased for some countries like Saudi Arabia from being one of THE HIGHEST in the world during the 1970's.....even current income is better then any sub saharan country! Saudi arabia has three quarters of a trillion!!!!!........yes $750 BILLION in foriegn investments that is not accounted for in their GDP hence not being reflected in their incomes. Other Gulf countries like Qatar, Kuwait and UAE have some of the highest per capita incomes in the world and a standard of living rivaling Europe...better in the case of UAE in my opinion.
The use of internet is low .....believe it or not if you look at the list of the top ten countries in the world that have the highest growth rate among internet users- atleast half of those 10 are arab countries.

Arab women, the report found, are almost universally denied advancement. Half of them still cannot read or write. that is absolute bullshit...ok its not like Europe but its not like Afghanistan either!Other then Saudi arabia...the fact that women are not allowed to do this and that is all crap....arab countries Lebanon,Jordan and Egypt(not to mention places like Morocco) are very liberated.The rest are just moderate and women live very comfortable lives. As for the half the women cant read....that is again big time BULLSHIT....maybe in Yemen its somewhat like this but other then that women in all the other nations enjoy educational facilities.Infact in the Gulf countries...quality education is free for EVERYONE...men and women.I have many friends here in Boston from Gulf nations whose government pays for tuition even in college here(and it is alot in private colleges) plus other expenses.And there are just as many female students who are sponsored as their are men....
Arab world is by no means advancing like East Asian countries.....but its certainly not like how you described it
The only thing i can completely agree with you in your post is your last line...Sad but expected, I can't say I'm surprised at all.....you have been brainwashed quite well i must say...like a little kid who belives whatever hes been told on TV....and that i think is more sad


 
david b.
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 4:41 am

Wheres SAS23 when you need him?  Big thumbs up
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
Alessandro
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 4:47 am

Like Qatarairways say there are big differences between different Arab countries, but in general the under achievers are the one with socialist or
former socialist rule (note Iraq, Egypt, Yemen, Syria, Libya and Algeria), the one ruled by monarchy is doing better.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Rai
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 4:55 am

Like most UN reports, I'm going to take this one with a grain of salt. I think this article brings us some very valid points with regards to certain countries, namely Saudi Arabia, but it cannot be applied to others. Though I have never traveled in the region, I have heard that the Gulf countries have an exceptional standard of living and thriving economies. UAE, Bahrain, and Qatar being prime examples. Providing there is some stability in the region, I would seriously jump at the chance to work in one of those three tax-free havens for a couple of years. Companies there are renowned for giving outrageous stipends and unheard of benefits to their employees. I’d like to know more about the Gulf states…
 
PANYNJ
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 6:11 am

QatarAirways
Putting all-Arab nations into one block for a comparision is not fair

it wasn't for a "comparison" it was for analysis. You deny that their are many adn multiple recurrent and cultures themes in Arab society?

Putting all-Arab nations into one block for a comparision is not fair

This report would seem to suggest that its much more than just Somalia, which actually has a very small Arab population.

PROSA
I'd say that the U.S. has got to start planning for the day when Saudi Arabia is an enemy rather than a friend.


I can't agree more. I would just hoep that that day is sooner than later. Our country has some very serious problems with Saudi Arabia that they can't buy off with high priced PR and Washington spinsters.

KHI747
I cant believe the number of people on this forum who have absoluetly nothing to do in life

Thats mean. I'm bored at work and got tired of porn. Theres nothing to do here because of the long holiday weekend.

but to find anti-muslim/arab articles and post it on this forum

Sadly (for you) it wasn't very hard to find. It was in the first section of this country's most prestigious newspaper.

As for the topic itself.....i dont know where the f**k you got it from

You don't. I do. It came from the New York Times which reported that the report (The Arab Human Development Report 2002) was commissioned by the UN and will be released today in Cairo. An advisory team of well-known Arabs in international public life was assembled to oversee the study. They included Thoraya Obaid, a Saudi who is executive director of the United Nations Population Fund; Mervat Tallawy, an Egyptian diplomat who heads the Economic and Social Council for West Asia; and Clovis Maksoud, who directs the Center for the Global South at American University in Washington and was formerly the Arab League's representative at the United Nations.

believe it or not if you look at the list of the top ten countries in the world that have the highest growth rate among internet users- atleast half of those 10 are arab countries.

Apparently not! Can you find a more reputable source than a report commisioned by the UN and authored by these ARAB people listed above? An Executive Director of the UN Population Fund, an Egyptian diplomat and head of the Economic and Social Council for West Asia, an American University professor and former Arab League UN ambasador. Damn, a real who's who.

that is absolute bullshit...

THIS IS THE PROBELM. YOU PEOPLE ARE IN DENIAL. YOUR BEST AND BRIGHTEST ARE TELLING YOU YOU HAVE MAJOR PROBLEMS AND YOU DERIDE IT AS "BULLSHIT". DAMNIT.

PANYNJ
 
zeus01
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 8:55 am

There obvisouly is some serioius social problems in the Arab countries, as well as a lot of brainwashing and denial. WE see countless dictators whom people cheer for while they are oppressed, heavy religious oppression, oppresion against women and the list goes on. But for some reason, these people can't stand up for freedom. Don't give me this bullshit about how they like it that way, because NO human has a will that likes to be oppressed. Many of arab peoples anit western views originate from that propaganda BS that comes from there governments, who own the press and everything else, so of course they only see what the gov. decides them to see. These countries breed terrorist, which of course hurt the countries, and also breed some serious hatred. OF COURSE theres US forces there. Does anyone remeber Sadam??????? Remeber how the EVIL US saved kuwaits ass??? As well as several others. And on another note, if you know anything about oil, you'd know that the mid east is simply the easiest source thats already developed. Within 20 years, most of the western world won't need them.

I don't know why this is, but I wish for once, someone in those countries would look up and take a look around.
 
LMP737
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 9:26 am

Hopefully the people in these various countries will one day rid themselves of the dictators, theocracies and monarchies that make life difficult for them.

David B:

Your right, where is SAS23? Probably staying away from this thread. If it's not attacking Israel or it's critical of it's neighbor's he has nothing to do with it.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
khi747
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 9:38 am

Relax PANYNJ....take it easy on yourself....i find it amusing how you are giving me examples of some "renowned arabs" and telling me what they are saying......obviously you believe them when you want to..when its serves your purpose....i wonder if you would still be jumping with joy if any of these very same arabs expressed their opinion about an issue like Palestine or Iraq.Very typical of hypocrites like you.
I am not in any denial....i mentioned that Arab countries are by no means progressing like say Singapore or Korea....but they are not as bad as you so happily pointed out.Qatarairways said the right thing when he said there is alot of diversity and difference among countries in the Arab world.In case you did'nt know each of these countries has its own economy and set of issues....just to bundle them all toghther by virtue of their language is indeed incorrect.Some nations are are doing VERY well like UAE & Qatar.....some just ok like Kuwait and some horribly like Yemen or Sudan.For instance take Saudi Arabia(or any other Gulf country) and take Morocco.Both arab on paper but VAST difference in Culture...among other things.Even the dialect of Arabic spoken in North African countries is very different from Arabic spoken in other countries....i would not bother looking up the list of fastest growing internet users....do it yourself and maybe you will learn a thing or two.And when i made that point i said that atleast half of the top 10 are Arab nations.......which does not mean that ALL of them are fast growing in this field ....
But what do you know....whatever you learn on FOXnews i guess....i wonder if you have ever been to any Arab country in your life....i suggest go visit one in the Gulf,one in the Syria region and one in Africa..see how different they are and see how well some of them are doing.Then you will atleast know what you are talking about rather then just argue like a kid, who watches alot of TV and has no idea what he is talking about.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 11:40 am

You better not be one of those Jews that does nothing but bash arabs

What is it with you, David, and anyone even CRITISIZING Arabs? Are they above criticism or something. You're certianly one of those who critisizes Jews and Americians, so what's wrong with criticism of a culture that condones suicide attacks, does not want to move forward into the 19th century, and that seems to resort to violence to try to solve its problems? God, you're touchy when it comes to them.

I think it isn´t a question of money in this case, it´s a question of leadership. Or more accurately, the lack of leadership.

When those in power are not interested in education and development, it´s no wonder the fanatics will find fertile ground and wreck what´s left of a once great culture.


Outstanding observaton, Klaus. I haven't agreed with you much lately, but that was excellent. Well done.

I cant believe the number of people on this forum who have absoluetly nothing to do in life but to find anti-muslim/arab articles and post it on this forum........

Really? For every one post critical of the Arabs/Muslims, there's two to three critical of Israel.

Wheres SAS23 when you need him?

Yes, since you can't obviously say anything yourself, David B, you wait for SAS23 to show up so you can give him another thumbs up for his towing the THI line.
 
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yyz717
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 11:40 am

An editorial recently appeared in one of Canada's dailies actually highlighting on numerous points the failure of Islam (vs Judaism and Christianity) to foster prosperous economic institutions for its people. The statistic that stood out like a sore thumb was that Islam represents 25% of the world's population yet generates only 6% of worldwide wealth......and if you exclude oil wealth (which is for Western customers using Western technology), the wealth creation drops to 4% of world total.

While not badmouthing Islam per se, this article alluded to the encouragement of private property, the relative freedom of worship & separation of statism & religion in Christian/Judaic (sp?) societies over the past 500 years that spawned world exploration, scientific advancement, capitalism, democracy, rule of law all of which collectively saw most Christian & Jewish societies become the wealthy nations they are today. That was the jist anyway.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
david b.
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 11:47 am

All you can say ALPHA1 are bad thing about ME culture. I dont care for Israel or the Jewish lobby. If I critize arabs or Islam, you will quickly agree. I don't care if your a Jew, If you don't like it don't read it.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
Alpha 1
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 11:54 am

All you can say ALPHA1 are bad thing about ME culture. I dont care for Israel or the Jewish lobby. If I critize arabs or Islam, you will quickly agree. I don't care if your a Jew, If you don't like it don't read it.

David-did I say ANYTHING about Jewish people. I was talking about Arabs-you're almost obsessed with defending them. Why? Especially with the long and bloody history of terrorism they have had in the last 30 years? And you don't critisize the Arabs or Islam BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO AGREE WITH ME? ROTFL. Jesus, David-I've agreed with just about everyone on here from time to time-even my detractors such as ADG, SAS23 and the like. If that's why you do it, that's, well, thats.........sheesh.

And I'm not Jewish. I'm Catholic. Why did you even mention that, David?
 
prosa
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 12:05 pm

There obvisouly is some serioius social problems in the Arab countries, as well as a lot of brainwashing and denial. WE see countless dictators whom people cheer for while they are oppressed, heavy religious oppression, oppresion against women and the list goes on. But for some reason, these people can't stand up for freedom.

Dictatorial regimes of various stripes in most Arab countries have crushed any possible democratic opposition groups over the years. By this point, just about the only oppostion groups that remain are the Islamic fundamentalists, who by and large are crafty enough to have survived over the years. Most of the non-Islamic opposition has been thoroughly cowed or forced into exile.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
prosa
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 12:35 pm

The statistic that stood out like a sore thumb was that Islam represents 25% of the world's population yet generates only 6% of worldwide wealth......and if you exclude oil wealth (which is for Western customers using Western technology), the wealth creation drops to 4% of world total.

I wouldn't read too much into that statistic. You'd probably find disparities of similar magnitude if you did the comparisons for sub-Saharan Africa, for India, and to lesser extents for Latin America and China.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 1:00 pm

Alpha: we seriously need a disrespected users list on this forum....
 
Alpha 1
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 1:04 pm

LOT, you don't know how many times I've thought about that in the corners of my mind.  Big grin
 
Krushny
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UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 3:48 pm

There obvisouly is some serious social problems in the Arab countries, as well as a lot of brainwashing and denial. WE see countless dictators whom people cheer for while they are oppressed, heavy religious oppression, oppresion against women and the list goes on. But for some reason, these people can't stand up for freedom.

Does it have something to do the Western support to some of those oppresors? US has pumped B$'s onto such backward regimes as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or Morocco. We even fought a war to save their asses when Saddam threatened the Gulf monarchies.
As for the Arab decline (relative to the West), it started in the XI century. You do not need the NY Times to tell it to you.

 
qatarairways
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 4:21 pm

When looking at the Arab world you have to break it down into several locations to show if thier is progress or not. You have to look at the Gulf, Lavent, Egypt, North Africa and East Africa. If you analyse these locations seperatley you'll see figures from the top to the bottom of the spectrum.

Now I'll Analyse one country, Qatar.

Economy

Qatar has the fastest economy in the world which is expected to double by 2005. Qatar managed to gain this record-breaking figure even with the slow-down in oil prices and the world economy in General. The GDP per capita is the highest of an Arab nation and is equivelant and exceeds many of the developed western nations. The GDP per capita will continue to grow and the major analysts have predicted the GDP per capita to reach $50,000 per capita in only a few years while the highest figure today is $30,000+. Unemployment is at 0% and many jobs are created every day either in the private or public sector.

Education

All Qataris have free education from School all the way till they finish college. This also applies to private schools in the country and abroad too. Illeteracy in the country will ablished soon but currently there are more illeterate men than women. Most of whom are bedouins.

In the past few years the country has taken major strides in Education. The number of colleges in the country increased by over 200% and the country currently has a mix of local and foreign colleges such Virginia Commonwealth University, Weil Corneill Medical College, the French Business School (coming later in the year) and possibly University of Texas. The country is attracting these colleges in a bid to diversify the education of the countries youth and introduce a high level of expertise.

In recent years thier have been plenty of construction projects to nearly double the amount of schools so that pupils/classrom ratio goes down to a very favourable figure. The ciriculum has been updated do be more international, teach environmental responsibility etc...

The Education City, the largest city dedicated to education is being constructed on the outskirts of Doha with many international schools, colleges and facilities such as the worlds largest library.

There have been many projects recently to help educate people in less economical developed countries such as Bosnia and Indonesia where many pupils were brought to Qatar under a sponsored education program takes all the way to college.

Envirnonmental Issues

Envirnonmental Conservation projects in Qatar have incresed significantly in the past 5 years. Many projects were undertaken to protect the wildlife such as animal conservation, plant life protection, see water protection etc...

Political Issues

Qatar became the first country in the Gulf to vote and participate as candidates in free elections for the Municipal Governments. In the next couple of years a Parliament would be set up where all laws will be passed and of course women can participate as candidates and vote as well.

A new constition is also underway which is more "people-freindly" than the older one and it will only be passed if people accept it in internationally monitored polls.

Freedom of Press

Qatar became the first country in the Gulf to allow freedom of press and Al-Jazeera is proof of that where many political dissidents from many parts of the Arab world are allowed to critisize the governments and voice thier views.

Womens Rights

Women are allowed to work wherever they want, wear whatever they want, have equal oppurtunities in education, allowed to drive (QR also has women pilots), participate in politics (there are many women in high levels of government and many regularly represent Qatar in major gatherings such as the UN).

Although there are several rules that don't apply equality such as Qatari women require permission from there brother, father or husband. There are also several committees in place to improve the situation of women in the country and the remainder of the world.

Science and Technology

There have been major adcancements in science and technology in feilds such as medicine or mechanics due to the many subsidized research facilities in the country. Further steps are being taken with the construction of the International Scientific Park where major research would be undertaken on many varried feilds under the sponsorhip of the government.

-----------------------

Here you can see that Qatar is different than many Arab countries and this level of differences can be found all arounf the Arab world. Some rich, some poor, some have freedom, some not etc....



Regards,
QatarAirways
 
qatarairways
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 4:35 pm

May I also add that our new constition allows this:

(Quote from Newspaper)

"The constitution has guaranteed many public freedoms, including the freedom to assemble, the freedom to association, the freedom of press and publishing, freedom of expression, opinion, scientific research, worshipping, intellect and many other public freedoms,"

---and---

"Under the draft constitution, the council [Parliament] would have the power to legislate, vote the state budget, monitor the government and question ministers, al-Kholeifi said."

---and---

"The draft of what would become Qatar’s first permanent constitution gives women the right to vote and run for public office, al-Kholeifi said.

All Qataris over 18 would be allowed to vote and run for office, according to the draft.

The text, comprising 150 clauses, also provides for freedom of association, expression and religious practice and for an independent judiciary."

-----------------

If you ask me I tell you that this is an advancement in political freedom and civil liberties in the Arab world and not a decline. And these reforms are being introduced around the Arab world.

Regards,
QatarAirways


 
G-KIRAN
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 6:25 pm

Lets just say this:The moment the Arab world runs out of oil-its game over.The only countries that will be able to survive are those that are trying to diversfy their economy ie UAE and Qatar.While other countries such as Saudi Arabia and Syria will be down in the dumps before long.

Plus the attitude here of some people such as KHIs' first post or David.B is poor(jeez I sound like a grandparent!).To them it seems that everyone who picks on Arabs is either a Jew with a long beard or someone who still thinks that all Arabs can do is to ride camels in the desert,yet surprise surprise the article was written by some Arab scholars.Can you imagine what they would say if it was a white person from some ultra far right party?
 
paulc
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 6:47 pm

old joke but it does apply to some countries.

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Hepkat
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 6:55 pm

I took the opportunity a while ago to grill an Arab friend of mine studying here in Vienna. He's from a wealthy family in the UAE and knows much about the Arab economies, etc. I was very surprised at what he had to share, he told me some things I've never thought about before.

It turns out that the word Arab is quite vague. It could mean almost anyone, black or white, no matter what language or religion. So using the term Arab world is like saying the Western world, or the Americas, or the Europeans. It's just too vague to mean anything significant. Among the "Arab world" there are rich states and poor states, advanced and underdeveloped, just as one could compare Haiti and Canada in the Americas or Portugal and Norway in Europe.

I was particularly keen to find out about women's rights, and he answered that they vary from country to country. In some countries women have very few western-style rights, while in countries like the UAE and Qatar, there's virtually no difference to western countries. In the more conservative states like Saudi Arabia where women are not allowed to work, there are strict laws providing for their care, so that they don't live in poverty. For example, although women are not allowed to work, drive or go out without a male relative, they're entitled to a legal percentage of their husband's earnings to run the household, each wife is legally entitled to the same exact property and material provisions as the other, and among the middle and upper classes, women spend their lives cultivating leisurely pursuits since there's no need for them to work. Supposedly, according to my friend, upper class women prefer this leisure lifestyle to work.

So I don't agree with the discussion title that the Arab world in general is in decline. The more conservative countries maybe, but certainly not the entire Arab world.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 9:47 pm

It turns out that the word Arab is quite vague. It could mean almost anyone, black or white, no matter what language or religion.

I think your friend is copping out. If it so "vague", why are the usual countries and characters in the "Arab League"? It's the Arabs themselves who are defining the word, not the west.

In the more conservative states like Saudi Arabia where women are not allowed to work, there are strict laws providing for their care, so that they don't live in poverty.

Goody. so there well-cared for slaves. I was worried there for a moment.
(dripping with sarcasm).

 
PANYNJ
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 10:15 pm

It could mean almost anyone, black or white, no matter what language or religion. So using the term Arab world is like saying the Western world,

Thats complete nonsense.
 
prosa
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 10:56 pm

It turns out that the word Arab is quite vague. It could mean almost anyone, black or white, no matter what language or religion.

"Arab" is generally used to designate people who speak Arabic as their first language. As a result, the Arab world can be said to stretch from Morocco to Iraq. It excludes Turks, Iranians, Somalis and Pakistanis, among others.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
Alpha 1
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Wed Jul 03, 2002 11:04 pm

I will grant you that people often combine "arab world" with "Islamic world", which are two different things. While it is true that the center of the Islamic world is in the Arab nations, Islam is far beyond that realm-into Iran, Turkey, Africa, Indonesia, the Philippines. It's as much a world-wide religion as is Chritianity and Judiasm.
 
zeus01
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Thu Jul 04, 2002 1:43 am

Hmmm, lets see. If you live in the middle east and you speak aribic, 95% chance your a Muslim since otherwise you might get put in jail, murdered or worse, and you probably live inside one of the middle eastern countries as defined by the UN, so............that would make you a Arab.

Quatar:

Im glad you pointed out the sucess of your country. I know your country and the UAE are really some of the only ones that are somewhat free. Freedom of religion is still not open really in any of the "upper class" arab countries.

American forces fought to defend some arab countries, so that Sadam would be in charge. Whats there now we may not like, but Sadam is ultimatly worse and though his time will come soon, it wasn't then. Theres uncanny evidence of what will happen to these countries once many of the Russian and former USSR countrie's oil field are truly developed. THe US and western world doesn't want to have to take oil from the Arab world, but right now, its cheapest. THere are multitudes of other oil fields also, and wether liberals like it or not, oil does reproduce itself under the sea. Theres literally a endless supply under there. My dad's a oil excecutive so, Im able to get some good info on this stuff.
 
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yyz717
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Thu Jul 04, 2002 2:09 am

The UAE starts to pail in comparison to most Western nations. Millions of Indians & Flilipinos who have lived in Arab countries for decades and generations are not allowed to take citizenship......this is racial discrimination.

The proper comparison for the UAE should be the enlightened West, not the dark barbaric countries of Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iraq, Iran et al.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
prosa
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Thu Jul 04, 2002 2:29 am

The UAE starts to pail in comparison to most Western nations. Millions of Indians & Flilipinos who have lived in Arab countries for decades and generations are not allowed to take citizenship......this is racial discrimination.

Isn't Germany notorious for having the same policy toward foreign workers?
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
qatarairways
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Thu Jul 04, 2002 2:35 am

Yyz717,

First of all the UAE has gave out many, yes many citizenships to many foreigners including palestinians, jordanians, Iranians, pakistanis etc... Second of all most of the Indians and Phillipinos only work here for a few years and not for decades and and generations many come here for a few years 3, 4, 5 etc.. and when they save up enough money they go home. In fact the numbers of Indians and Philipinos only became substantial in the 80's so I don't know how many generations you are talking about.

Second of all I really find you very hypocritic against a similar situations. You have said that Israel shouldn't give citizenships to the palestinians and allow refugees to return so how come the UAE is different?

Third point is that in many Gulf countries foreigners outnumber nationals, point in case Qatar where for every 1 Qatari there are 4 foreigners so giving them citizenships would be "suicide" as many of the Israelis on this forum have pointed. The difference though between Israel and the UAE is that the Phillipinos or Indians have no ethnic, religious, or ancestrial rights to the country.

Regards,
QatarAirways
 
Rai
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Thu Jul 04, 2002 2:43 am

QatarAirways says:
Third point is that in many Gulf countries foreigners outnumber nationals, point in case Qatar where for every 1 Qatari there are 4 foreigners so giving them citizenships would be "suicide" as many of the Israelis on this forum have pointed. The difference though between Israel and the UAE is that the Phillipinos or Indians have no ethnic, religious, or ancestrial rights to the country.

Are you saying that these people have no rights to be citizens? Chinese, Indians, Hispanics, Arabs, etc. have no "ancestrial rights" to the U.S., Canada, UK or Australia, but it hasn't stopped those countries from making them full-fledged citizens. Hell, if that was the case, I wouldn't even be a citizen of this country -- both my parents are "foreigners".
 
prosa
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Thu Jul 04, 2002 4:49 am

QatarAirways,
Thanks for posting that description of Qatar. It indeed sounds like a place which should be a model for the rest of the Arab world to follow.
The one thing that might be an issue before long, however, is Qatar's proximity to Saudi Arabia. From what I can tell, S.A. is a disaster just waiting to happen, with probably the bleakest future of any country in the region if not the world. Hopefully Qatar will be able to weather the storm next door.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Thu Jul 04, 2002 5:04 am

Qatar Airways,

You can put as much spin on this as you like but the fact is that the Arab nations are in a state.

It really does make me laugh that airliners will always find some people to who will argue that black is white and night is day. The report conducted was not conducted by the usa nor israel and cannot be accused as jewish-influenced etc etc, it was writtern by a panel of internationally respected arab academic nad yet some people still want to disagree, these people just look silly.

The saem people who champion the UN in discussions regarding israel and now the same people taking their well-informed view with a 'pinch of salt'. Im sorry but it simply doesnt was, the un has found several problems with arab governments, either they wake up and deal with it or they will be failing their people who deserve batter.

ps-regarding saudia arabria and the us-try reading 'total war 2006',it plots the course of islamic fanaticism which sees S.A against the usa.
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qatarairways
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Thu Jul 04, 2002 5:54 am

Rai,

Comparing immigration between the USA and the UAE or Qatar isn't logical. The USA's geography, history and economy is completely differnt than te UAE or Qatar.

PROSA,

Saudi Arabia is very worrying especially for the Gulf countries and so are Bahrain and Kuwait because of political instability and in the case of Saudi Arabia power struggles within the ruling family. The Saudi Arabian Princes which are trying to rise to power are very different. One is Pro-US the other is Anti-US. One is very collonial (seeks territories from Gulf states) on is isn't. One believes in women's rights etc... and one doesn't and the list goes on. So after Saudi Arabia's king dies the situation would be explosive and the smaller Gulf States would be at risk of Invation from Saudi Arabia.

Go Canada!

I didn't once say that this report came from the USA or from Israel. And I, believe it or not have a brain and so don't believe that everything is a Jewish Conspiracy like many un-educated people who seem to have nothing to do bu to come up with conspiracy theories.

"It really does make me laugh that airliners will always find some people to who will argue that black is white and night is day"

I am trying to say quite the opposite. I am trying to say that the Arab world varrys so much that cannot possibly be lumped together as one entity. The Arab world can't be black or white or good or bad it. To do that I have shown one "progressive" nation to show that not all the Arab world is like that.

"it was writtern by a panel of internationally respected arab academic nad yet some people still want to disagree, these people just look silly."

Don't I have a right to question these people. If I am an Arab does it mean I can't question other Arabs?

"The saem people who champion the UN in discussions regarding israel and now the same people taking their well-informed view with a 'pinch of salt'."

I hate to say this but the same people in the Israel vs. Palestine threads who disregard the UN there respect it here. I myself have nothing against the UN except the Permanent Members of the UN Securty Council but thats another issue.

The Arab world has seen a lot of political, social and economic reforms such as the ones seen in Qatar. I can point out Lebanon, Jordan, Oman and Bahrain as some of the countries that are undergoing these reforms and more will follow. Reforms can't happen overnight or they would have the reverse effect. If you plant a seed today do you expect it to bear fruit tomorrow?


Regards,
QatarAirways
 
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yyz717
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Thu Jul 04, 2002 7:10 am

Comparing immigration between the USA and the UAE or Qatar isn't logical. The USA's geography, history and economy is completely differnt than te UAE or Qatar.

So the US should be expected to accept immigration but not the UAE??? There are smaller countries than the UAE with liberal immigation policies....New Zeland, Ireland, Estonia, Denmark, to name a few. By denying Indians & Filipinos citizenship in the UAE, the UAE is practicing racial discrimination, which is unacceptable.

I am trying to say quite the opposite. I am trying to say that the Arab world varrys so much that cannot possibly be lumped together as one entity. The Arab world can't be black or white or good or bad it. To do that I have shown one "progressive" nation to show that not all the Arab world is like that.


Well, here are some similarities between Arab countries: not a single one is democratic, none have full freedom of press & association, none encourage immigration of Christians (as most Western countries do with Muslim immigant groups), none have separation of church & state. Whatever variations you claim exist in the Arab world, these similarities paint the entire Arab world as pretty bleak from a human rights standpoint.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
qatarairways
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Thu Jul 04, 2002 7:44 am

"There are smaller countries than the UAE with liberal immigation policies....New Zeland, Ireland, Estonia, Denmark, to name a few"

You raise a good point Yyz717 and I won't argue you with you on that.

"By denying Indians & Filipinos citizenship in the UAE, the UAE is practicing racial discrimination, which is unacceptable."

I wouldn't call that Racial Discrimination. Yyz717 have you lived in the Gulf? If you did you'll see that offering citizenship to foreigners has declined significantly in the Gulf to very very very small figures to all races and religions and not only to the Indians or Phillipinos so I don't know how that would be racial. The immigration policy is based on politics and economics. A racial policy would be like Israel's one which has a very liberal immigration policy but ONLY to Jews, If thats not racist I don't know what is.

"not a single one is democratic"
How about Lebanon for example? As far as I know it is a democratic country if not someone please correct me. And as I said the process of democratic reforms are already happening in the Arab region but things don't happen overnight.

"none have full freedom of press & association,"
Thier is freedom of press in Qatar and soon with our new constition we would have freedom of association. And this has lead to a "Domino" to the rest of the Arab world.

" none encourage immigration of Christians "

Now I have to disagree with you on this. Lebanon for example took on many Christain Armenian Refugees over the years, same with Syria and others. The main streams of immigration lead to the Gulf and many are Hindu's, Christains, Budhists etc... Many of the large corporations such as the Oild companies are hiring many Americans and Canadians of which nearly all are Christains. For example of my father's employees here in Qatar 5 are muslim 2 are Hindu and 5 are Christain. My father employs on the basis of skill and not on the basis of religion and so do most people/corporations in the Gulf. And before you say that thier is no equality please look at the many governments including the Iraqi government or the Lebnanese government with a Christain President "Emile Lahoud" or the Bahraini government with a Jewish Bahraini in the Advisory council.

Yyz717 I am glad we are having this discussion without name calling and plain rudeness so I am more than happy to continue this discussion.


Regards,
QatarAirways
 
Hepkat
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RE: UN: Arab World In Giant Decline

Thu Jul 04, 2002 8:11 am

"There are smaller countries than the UAE with liberal immigation policies....New Zeland, Ireland, Estonia, Denmark, to name a few"

I'm not sure it's fair to compare many of these countries to the UAE. Most of these countries have been rich and industrialized for several decades, so one could argue that they are used to immigration applications and have had enough time to deal with it and iron out an immigration policy. From checking the CIA website, the now prosperous countries of the Mid-East have just recently discovered their wealth, as late as the 80's. So you could also argue that immigration in these states might be a relatively new experience, for which one could still expect feelings of resistance and mistrust. What leads me to adopt this opinion is QatarAirways pointing out that most of the foreigners being guest workers. This usually only happens in up and coming economies.

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