airways1
Posts: 536
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 1999 3:05 am

Outrageous! Please Can Germans Confirm!

Sat Jul 06, 2002 11:51 pm

Read this short news article: http://news.excite.com/article/id/249335|oddlyenough|07-05-2002::08:10|reuters.html

In summary, it says in Germany, a (female) muslim teacher was forbidden from wearing her headscarf in school, as german children are entitled to an education free from the influence of foreign religions.

I would prefer a system where religion of any kind is forbidden from schools, or at the very least, as in England, where all religions are treated equally (in theory even if not in practise).

But I think it's outrageous that german schools are allowed to ram christiannity down the throats of the students, whilst outlawing the influence of foreign religions.

Can some germans please actually confirm that this is the case (as suggested by the article), or enlighten me to the real facts.

If this is true, does anyone else agree with me that this ruling stinks?
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Outrageous! Please Can Germans Confirm!

Sat Jul 06, 2002 11:53 pm

Not FOREIGN religions, ANY religions. Actually read the article.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
airways1
Posts: 536
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 1999 3:05 am

RE: Outrageous! Please Can Germans Confirm!

Sun Jul 07, 2002 12:06 am

777236ER,

the last line of the article says:

The judge said while he did not think Ludin had missionary motives, pupils in state schools were entitled to an education free from the influence of foreign religions.

Maybe I misunderstood, but to me it sounds like foreign religions are being singled out.
 
airsicknessbag
Posts: 4626
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2000 2:45 am

RE: Outrageous! Please Can Germans Confirm!

Sun Jul 07, 2002 12:20 am

I had to acquaint myself with this case quite a bit because I had to take an exam which was modelled after this case, a year ago or so.

1) The article gets it wrong: "pupils in state schools were entitled to an education free from the influence of foreign religions." - it has nothing to do with foreign religions, it´s religion per se, be it Christianity, Judaism or whatever. To illustrate this, there was a similar case which the Federal Constitutional Court had to decide: Bavarian law obliged schools to have a crucifix in each class room. This was found to be unconstitutional because it impedes the so-called "negative freedom of religion" of atheist pupils.

2) The headscarf case was basically the same: you have to weigh the would-be teacher´s religious freedom (i.e. her freedom to wear the headscarf) against the pupils´ above mentioned negative religious freedom (i.e. their freedom not to be exposed to religious symbols). If one takes into account that the Federal Law on Civil Servants (which include teachers) constitutes a comprehensive duty of neutrality to be fulfilled by civil servants, the issue is quite clear.

I hope I could restore your faith in the German legal system and convince you that this ruling does not stink.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Daniel Smile
 
airways1
Posts: 536
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 1999 3:05 am

RE: Outrageous! Please Can Germans Confirm!

Sun Jul 07, 2002 12:50 am

Airsicknessbag, thanks, you cleared that up for me. I suspected that the article might be wrong because I would be surprised if Germany stooped that low.

OK, that's much better now.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
airlinelover
Posts: 5287
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:03 am

RE: Outrageous! Please Can Germans Confirm!

Sun Jul 07, 2002 2:18 am

Ok everyone.. Let's take a look at this for a second.. If this had happened in the US and someome posted it, the thread would've turned into a big flame war by now.. At the LEAST it would be getting pretty bad.. But it happened in Germany, and look at everyones responses..

Try to keep in mind that this DOES happen in all parts of the world, whether you know it or not..

Chris
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
airblue
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 9:16 pm

RE: Outrageous! Please Can Germans Confirm!

Sun Jul 07, 2002 2:39 am

In Italy all schools, hospitals, and public offices have a crucifix in each room without a specific law that obliged to keep it.
So few months ago a group of Muslims asked to a school if they could take away the crucifix. The school said no so they went to a court. The court at the end made a very strange sentence:
"even if Italian law doesn't oblige to keep crucifix, the court couldn't decide to take away crucifix from public place. Since Italy is a country with a long Catholic story crucifix is now part of the Italian culture. So they think it's possible not put any new crucifix in new place, but it's not possible take away crucifix from existing position".
 
Marco
Posts: 4005
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 3:41 pm

RE: Outrageous! Please Can Germans Confirm!

Sun Jul 07, 2002 2:44 am

IMO there shouldn't be a law to keep or remove the crucifix. If the owner of a shop, or a school, or an office wants to keep he/she should be allowed to do so. If not, he/she should be able to remove it.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Airlinelover

Sun Jul 07, 2002 2:48 am

Airlinelover: Ok everyone.. Let's take a look at this for a second.. If this had happened in the US and someome posted it, the thread would've turned into a big flame war by now.. At the LEAST it would be getting pretty bad.. But it happened in Germany, and look at everyones responses..

The interesting bit is where the initial flaming salvos are coming from, usually, in those cases you mentioned... Wink/being sarcastic
 
G-KIRAN
Posts: 710
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2000 1:55 am

RE: Outrageous! Please Can Germans Confirm!

Sun Jul 07, 2002 4:53 am

entitled to an education free from the influence of foreign religions.

Does Christianity come from Germany?

Quite frankly if she does not start preaching the Koran than how can she influence her pupils?However Afghan law does not apply in Germany!
 
vafi88
Posts: 2981
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 10:32 am

RE: Outrageous! Please Can Germans Confirm!

Sun Jul 07, 2002 5:17 am

This is why I'm not religious......
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
alaska739
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 3:37 pm

RE: Outrageous! Please Can Germans Confirm!

Sun Jul 07, 2002 5:17 am

*sigh*

I just don't understand why people always get all worked up over the domestic practices of other countries, such as Germany in this case. If Germany wants to bar foreign influences and keep Christianity, more power to them. If they want to allow all religions in, more power to them. If you don't like it, don't move there.

Where is the outrage over Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iraq & Iran, all of which, I'm sure, ban foreign religious influences?

Keep your nose in your own domestic affairs.
north dakota sucks.
 
Marco
Posts: 4005
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 3:41 pm

RE: Outrageous! Please Can Germans Confirm!

Sun Jul 07, 2002 5:30 am

Alaska739 I see your point but Jordan, Iraq and Iran are tolerant countries as they have big Christian populations. There are huge churches in all of these countries. Saudi on the other hand bans Christianity, which is against human rights.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
Marco
Posts: 4005
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 3:41 pm

RE: Outrageous! Please Can Germans Confirm!

Sun Jul 07, 2002 5:35 am

Airways1,

I don't understand why you're so outraged by this decision! The court wants to maintain neutrality in public schools. If you want to ban any Christian influence, you have to do the same with every other religion or else that would be hypocrisy! Don't you agree?
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
alaska739
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 3:37 pm

RE: Outrageous! Please Can Germans Confirm!

Sun Jul 07, 2002 5:36 am

I wouldn't call Iraq and Iran tolerant countries.... but that is beside the point. I don't care if those countries ban foreign religious influences or not-- they're Islamic Republics! As for Saudi Arabia, they give money to families of homicide bombers, so they're just wack anyway.

To each his own.
north dakota sucks.
 
Marco
Posts: 4005
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 3:41 pm

RE: Outrageous! Please Can Germans Confirm!

Sun Jul 07, 2002 5:43 am

I wouldn't call Iraq and Iran tolerant countries....

I'm an Assyrian, and we are a non-Arab Christian minority in Iran/Iraq/Turkey. While there is a lot of persecution going on because we're Christians, we do have rights and the government has built churches in the past for the Christians. Iran is probably stricter, but in Iraq there are about 2-3M Christians! So I do have background knowledge and I do know what I'm talking about. It's not the freedom people enjoy in Europe/USA but it's not as bad as Saudi.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
alaska739
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 3:37 pm

RE: Outrageous! Please Can Germans Confirm!

Sun Jul 07, 2002 6:21 am

Oh, I'm not questioning you on the fact that you are allowed to worship, I'm merely stating that I wouldn't call those countries tolerant. That may sound like an oxymoron, but it really isn't. As you say, you are allowed to worship, yet there is still some persecution in less tolerant nations, I'm sure.

Best of luck to you...

north dakota sucks.
 
Marco
Posts: 4005
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 3:41 pm

RE: Outrageous! Please Can Germans Confirm!

Sun Jul 07, 2002 6:33 am

I do agree with what you were saying though.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: Outrageous! Please Can Germans Confirm!

Sun Jul 07, 2002 8:16 am

Here is a quote of a German AP article:

"In der Urteilsbegründung hieß es, das Grundrecht der Klägerin auf Glaubens- und Bekenntnisfreiheit müsse hinter die Rechte von Eltern und Schülern und die Pflicht zur strikten Neutralität im Schulwesen zurücktreten."

It basically says, Parents and pupils have the right of Neutrality in the school, and that this is more important than the fundamental right of religious freedom.

Nothing about foreign religions, same applies for Catholics or Protestants (as a native German religion) etc. as pointed out by Airsicknessbag.

 
Guest

RE: Outrageous! Please Can Germans Confirm!

Sun Jul 07, 2002 8:23 am

Once again, I see that it's time to post my German joke. Enjoy.
Jetguy
############################################################

The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the EU rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5 year phase-in plan that would be known as "EuroEnglish":

In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c".. Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favor of the "k". This should klear up konfusion and keyboards kan have 1 less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with the "f". This will make words like "fotograf" 20% shorter.

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent "e"'s in the language is disgraceful, and they should go away.

By the 4th yar, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v". During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.

After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer.

ZE DREM VIL FINALI KUM TRU!


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