TechRep
Topic Author
Posts: 1877
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2002 6:53 am

Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 7:38 am

I have said before I loved the game of baseball. From the time I was 7 till 15 years old I would watch baseball, play baseball and dream baseball. I absolutely loved the Kansas City Royals and the franchise/players were always loyal to the fans.

I can't remember where baseball took a wrong turn but it was somewhere around when Pete Rose went down for allegedly betting on Baseball. What is baseball doing right? Steroids are ramped and MLB has been absolutely silent on the fact it is ruining the game. These juiced up players are ruining records and it's to the point where we need records before 1980 and after 1980.

Salaries are through the roof, my uncle would take me to KC Royals games and we would enjoy the fact tickets were cheap, the play exciting and a soft drinks/beer/food was reasonable.

There was no excuse for what happened at the 2002 All-Star game. Calling the game early was a travesty; they act like these players are little leaguers who can't throw an extra inning or two. Fans were robbed of a great battle even the players admit this. The fan is being taken less and less into account to protect other interests. Other interests do not pay for tickets, other interests only look to line their pockets not further the game.

Baseball talks about another strike, I say go ahead Baseball do it. I actually would like the past-time to fail. A lesson needs to be learnt from a major sport that constantly takes its fans for granted. The game is tainted and run by a corporation of men only interested in a dollar. There is nothing wrong with making a dollar but the tradition of the game and a tradition of making it affordable to the common man must be upheld, or it will fail.

Baseball is on a collision course, it is an out of control money machine that will crash into the common fan. Eventually the common fan will rise up, yes rise up out of his seat and stop attending games. The end or a break down is coming and Baseball is only the beginning, other major sports are reaching critical mass as well including football.

Major sports are becoming unaffordable; we only have to look as far as Canada to see what happened to Hockey. The National Past-Time of the great nation of Canada became unaffordable and in essence was purchased by the USA. How many Canadian teams have moved away from small market Canada to the USA? Canadians were unable to pay the salaries of these players who demanded American dollars.

Corporations have bought many of the best seats in mass quantities. I have been to these new sports arenas and they resemble a convention of sorts to these corporations. The buy out all the box seats, have plaques of their company embossed in bronze on the seats or boxes. Big business is buying sports and hi-jacking our diversion, I want to go to games to get away from work but I am reminded how they own all the best seats.

Its ridicules folks, critical mass approaches, the average consumer is being priced out of professional sports.

I await your feedback.

TechRep




 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 7:55 am

I LOVE baseball, but baseball is truely testing the passion I have, and many other true diehards have for the game.

Starting with the All-Star Game. It was a joke. There is no writen rule that states AL players must play. True there is pressure on the managers to get everyone in, BUT they have to be intelligent enough to tell the media and the pitchers that at least a couple may be held out of the game incase the game does go into extra innings. Its sad, because the game was good, up until Satan ERRRRRRR Selig called it. Forgotten will be Torii Hunter's incredible catch to rob Barry Bonds of a jack, and Barry giving him props right afterwards, or even Barry making sure his next hit did clear the wall. I think I might have gone Soccer Fan if I was at the game.

Overall, baseball does have serious problems, BUT, NFL and NHL Salaries are on a meteoroic rise just like baseball. The NBA's salaries are as bad if not worse than baseball. Also, the NFL had a steroid problem, so now its baseballs turn to deal with it. Hell, in the NBA, brning blunts seems to be a hobby of about 85% of the players, so its not like baseball is alone.

Now, while I agree that the owners are indeed greedy, the players to me are WORSE. The players act like they should make all this money, because the owners are so rich. I hate to break it to the players, butthe owners made there millions and billions through business, or inheritance, or other ways...not playing a game. An owner is basically someone who wants a fantasy sports team, but has teh money to do it in real life. The players that play the game, feel they are OWED such massive amounts of money because the owners are rich. WRONG. The owners are not going to run a baseball team, and lose money so it is more affordable to the fans, while paying the players such large jack. Of course the fans take it in the ass because of this. Because the owners have all this money, does not mean they must give it up to A-Rod, Giambi, Piazza, Bonds, Grumpy Jr. ect. These people are playing a game, and its the fans that pay for them. I agree the owners are out to make all the money they can from there sports business venture, and that is where they need to reform as well. A Players union refusing salary caps, (and I propose individuale caps like in the NBA), steroid and other drug testing (this is just going to turn people away, especially if they have nothing to hide), owners not agreeing to increased revenue sharing, ect are all severe issues that need to be addressed.

I am a baseball diehard. I don't care about the NFL until the World Series is over. After the NBA had their strike in 98, I have not watched hardly any NBA games, because of the hate baseball got for their strike. I watch Hockey, but again, don't get into it until baseball is over. I can't wait until baseball starts up again the day after the season ends. There are few like me, and baseball is testing me and people like me more and more. Satan ERRRRRRRR Selig needs to go, and baseball needs to pull its collective head out of this collective ass, and think about the one thing that matters most.....The Fans.
 
AC320
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 8:07 am

Wow me and KROC actually agree on something concerning baseball, that Selig is evil. Never thought I'd see the day.

An abused fan,
AC320

fuddle duddle
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 8:15 am

techrep

You forgot to mention that a game now takes about 3.5 hours to play so it is even more boring as shit than 30 years ago. This to could be a problem !
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 8:23 am

PacificJourney. What you and many detractors forget, is that a major appeal about baseball is there is no time limit. You might think it is boring as shit, but the millions and millions of fans that go to the games obviously don't think so. The fact you can totally relax during a baseball game is something few sports can offer.
 
AC320
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 8:37 am

Baseball is one of the greatest sports ever (next to hockey). I have fond memories of sitting just a few rows above the Expos dugout at Olympic Stadium (back when even the roof still retracted), with a hot dog, bowl of poutine, and over-sized soda, not caring how long the game was and just enjoying the overall experience. relaxing, with moments of sheer excitement at every crack of the bat, foul balls heading my way, and balls outbound for home-run country. It really is a great game, and I'm always sure to spend the time to watch my favourite team in action every summer when I return home. Praying for a miracle so I will still get to do that for many years to come.
fuddle duddle
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 8:57 am

One word KROC, Cricket ! 9 hours a day for 5 days relaxing enough for you ?
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 9:09 am

There is a reason why Cricket hasn't caught on in the States PacJourney. Some things can be TOO relaxing.  Big grin
 
dinker225
Posts: 978
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 9:18 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 9:46 am

Ahhhhhhhhh. But there is a time limit. Last nights All Star game was finished after the 11th inning with no winner. There explanation was that they had run out of pitchers and didn't want to injur the ones that they had. HAHAHA, thats a joke. I would demand a refund if the game was called off after 11 innings!!!!

Dinker
Two rules in aviation, don't hit anything and don't run out of gas, cause if you run out of gas yer gonna hit something.
 
Hamfist
Posts: 606
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 9:40 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 10:02 am

I agree with a lot of what has been said here. I'm a life-long Braves fan, and my 1980's misery has long been erased. However, in the late 90's I actually found myself asking how much all these great season really mean when they come at the expense of teams with only 1/4 - 1/3 of the payroll.

 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 10:04 am

Not having read the post, I agree with the subject of this thread  Big grin
 
notdownnlocked
Posts: 923
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2000 1:45 pm

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 10:04 am

People have a short memory. When the players went on strike the last time millions of fans claimed to never return to the ballpark. But over time they did. I am one who did stay away except for one time when I was given free tickets a few years back. I was totally turned off when I found it was $5.50 just to park the car now it's over $8.00. The TX Rangers stadium isn't too far away from me but you will not catch me inside there or watching them on TV. When I was younger I always went to the games or watched or listened to them every single day. But no more watching a bunch of overpaid babies just going through the motions of a game.
 
AC320
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 10:52 am

Lucky you Hamfist. Looks like your 1980's misery and whole lot of other misery has been dumped on us Expos fans.
fuddle duddle
 
blink182
Posts: 5273
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 1999 3:09 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 10:52 am

I have been saying that since I was born. That's why I play Lacrosse.

"The boys of summer play baseball. The men of summer play Lacrosse."

blink
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
Soku39
Posts: 1731
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 7:16 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 12:14 pm

"The boys of summer play baseball. The men of summer play Lacrosse"

I believe you mean boys play *cough* soccer *cough*.

But seriously I used to like baseball but it's just TO FREAKING EXPENSIVE just to go to the game. The only decently priced seats are either standing or far enough that you need binoculars, and concession prices piss me off too gimme a break 4.50 for a hamburger good God. It will be a long time before I ever go to another baseball game. Oh by the way have you ever found a parking space for under 10 bucks??

Alright rant over.
The Ohio Player
 
Bernard Shakey
Posts: 541
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2001 4:05 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 12:30 pm

I agree with almost everything said above.

However:

If I'm paying some joker a ridiculous amount of money to pitch and win baseball games for me, I'm damn pissed if the manager of some other team puts an extra 50 pitches on his arm to win an exhibition game. No MVP, that is indeed a joke. Give it to Torii Hunter for that grab.

The Cleveland Browns will in the 2003 Super Bowl and you heard it here first.
Mindless drifter on the road, Carries such an easy load
 
airlinelover
Posts: 5287
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:03 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 12:52 pm

I agree TechRep.. Baseball IS a joke..

When I was a little kid (I am 23 now) my dad used to always take me to the old Tiger Stadium to watch the Detroit Tigers play.. I loved baseball.. My favorite player was Lou Whitaker.. I remember once, my dad picked me up early from school to see the season opener, and another time when we saw the Tigers win the world series..

But what has happened since? Pete Rose and betting.. Strikes.. Bad attitudes, crummy teams.. The players no longer play for the sheer enjoyment of playing the game they love, they do it for the money.. There are VERY FEW players left, if any, that could get past that now.. It's really sad.. I think most of you (in the states and maybe Canada) know how much the Tigers suck... And what did they get to "motivate them"? a new mega-multi-million dollar stadium, to LOSE IN.. They haven't improved a bit.. I am sick and tired of the greedyness among the players.. I hear they're talking about striking AGAIN too!

I can only hope that they regain SOME sanity in the near future, as I don't like seeing my little 10 year old brother actually ADMIRING these ppl, and wanting to be "Just Like Them".. God.. It makes me sick..

Chris
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
AC320
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 1:06 pm

Well I know a bunch of you here probably won't agree with my stance here but i say fight contraction and sign the petition to save a ahem certain team or at least to express your displeasure at the situation Selig's economics are brewing for MLB: http://www.savetheexpos.com/petition.asp
fuddle duddle
 
b747ca
Posts: 597
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2001 9:30 pm

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 1:11 pm

I was listening to the local sport radio (TEAM1050) and they had a sports business analyst on and he strongly believes that both the Expos and the Bluejays are the teams that are going to be contracted.

anyone else heard this?
ma va funk ulo
 
VonRichtofen
Posts: 4261
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 3:10 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 1:39 pm

"I think I might have gone Soccer Fan if I was at the game."

LOL!!

Why was the game called? I means it's not like people really were going soccer fan...
 
paulc
Posts: 1440
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2001 10:42 pm

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:36 pm

yep - it sure is.

How can you have a "world series" when only 2 or 3 countries play the game  Big grin
English First, British Second, european Never!
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:50 pm

How is it that the worst scandal in baseball is still considered to be 8 guys throwing a world series?

It doesn't seem possible with Bud Selig running the show.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 6:22 pm

Airlinelover. If I was raised watching the Detroit Tigers, I would hate baseball too!  Big grin

Shakey made a good statement with the fact that you don't want a teams best player getting hurt pitching in an exibition. That is why I feel some at least pitchers should be held back incase some think like Tuesday happened. The All-Star game is for the fans. You know, the fans that foot the bill for the mega-million contracts and such, and to havethe game called a tie is an atrocity. Its baseball not Soccer, or Hockey. No ties. Throw Scott Rolen out there to pitch or something. He will give up a quick 14 runs, then the game is over.
 
ben88
Posts: 1037
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 4:49 pm

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 6:46 pm

If they get hurt in an exhibition game then so be it. I read somewhere that one of Ted Williams' best memories was hitting the game winning home run in the 14th inning of a summer exhibition game. How do you run out of players? I remember pitching in Little league for the WHOLE game and throwing as hard as I could. If you're tired or your arm hurts, you just keep throwing! Players are paid so much now that they are treated as porcelain dolls instead of athletes.
 
Guest

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 11:10 pm

I agree, the exhibition game was a damn farce. I blame scumbags like Steve Luria, Wayne Huizenga, and company.

ruined a terrific game.
 
JamieD
Posts: 597
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 8:38 pm

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 11:45 pm

I lurve baseball but I'll choose cricket over baseball any day.  Big grin
 
duggan
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 5:58 pm

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Thu Jul 11, 2002 11:51 pm

TechRep,
Same thing in Europe about Football. If you add the risk of beeing killed by some hooligans, it makes the football seat not only very expensive but also dangerous.

I'll stick to the good ol' rugby union games !
 
Dr.DTW
Posts: 246
Joined: Thu May 25, 2000 1:13 pm

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Fri Jul 12, 2002 6:11 am

I don't understand...why was the All-Star game prematurely stopped??

I read something about "not having enough pitchers," but I'm sure the dugouts were filled with qualified pitchers. Is there some kind of a regulation that says you can't pitch more than "x" inings??

This game is going to hell...  Sad
 
LMP737
Posts: 4810
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Fri Jul 12, 2002 6:18 am

I had sworn off the non-aviation forum but in this case I'll make an exception. I hope the players go on strike, that way baseball will drive even more fans away from the game.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Fri Jul 12, 2002 6:20 am

Dr.DTW. It is expected (but not a rule) to try and make sure all players get a chance to play. Therefore pitchers only pitched a small amount. When the game went into extra innings, each team was alreayd on their last pitcher left.
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Fri Jul 12, 2002 6:30 am

"Same thing in Europe about Football. If you add the risk of beeing killed by some hooligans, it makes the football seat not only very expensive but also dangerous."

Yes, thousands of people die every week at football games. And I don't think it's too expensive, you pay 6-9 € in Germany for a ticket(no seat of course).
 
Guest

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Fri Jul 12, 2002 7:42 am

I've got three letters and a word for you: AAA Ball. At my local AAA ballpark, the good seats cost $12. It's baseball the way it was meant to be played. That's where you'll find me.

'Speed
 
Bernard Shakey
Posts: 541
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2001 4:05 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Fri Jul 12, 2002 8:22 am

Hey Normal,

AA ball is where to find the true prospects now adays. Cheaper too.
Mindless drifter on the road, Carries such an easy load
 
Guest

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Fri Jul 12, 2002 8:31 am

"Hey Normal, AA ball is where to find the true prospects now adays. Cheaper too."

The AA and A teams in my area aren't really a big draw - the AAA games are a lot more fun to go to because the crowd is there and into it.

'Speed

 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Fri Jul 12, 2002 8:34 am

Montreal may be contracted from baseball but the Expos are too good a franchise to be folded.Fold the O's and move the Expos into Baltimore!How big a market is Charlotte?
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Fri Jul 12, 2002 8:36 am

Fold the Orioles? Why on earth? At least they still are drawing fans. The Expos have no tradition, just a few good players. Get rid of the Devil Rays, Marlins, or Expos before anyone else.
 
AC320
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Fri Jul 12, 2002 8:39 am

I say no contraction at all.
fuddle duddle
 
blink182
Posts: 5273
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 1999 3:09 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Fri Jul 12, 2002 9:04 am

Regarding the strike, the players have absolutely no right to strike. According to ABCNews on "World News Tonight", the average salary is 2 million dollars(US) per year.

Those players are making more in a year than some people make in a life time. If those players weren't making squat, then it would be one thing. However, the fact remains that those guys are getting paid unbelievable amounts of money to play a game. They have no right to strike in my opinion. This just shows that the game is all about money now and has nothing to do with the sport. It's proven, where the money is is where the players go. Alex Rodriguez and Chan Ho Park did not sign with the Rangers because they wanted to be there. It was because of Tom Hicks' deep pockets that lured the two guys there. There is absolutely no excuse to strike. Those guys are getting paid incredible amounts to play a stinkin' game(no offence to baseball, this is to every sport).

As for contraction, I am against it.

blink
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
AC320
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Fri Jul 12, 2002 9:08 am

Glad to finally have some support on here against contraction, Blink182.

Sign and pass around the petition: http://www.savetheexpos.com/petition.asp
fuddle duddle
 
flyingbronco05
Posts: 3484
Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 11:43 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Fri Jul 12, 2002 9:23 am

NO MORE PITCHERS = NO MORE GAME!

It's not that hard to understand!

Get over it and go out and fly!
Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
tt737fo
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 2:13 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Fri Jul 12, 2002 10:57 am

The problem with Major League Baseball is this: It's all about BS. Bud Selig.

Bud Selig is living off the fat of the land as the Commissioner. Meanwhile his daughter is running (into the ground) the team he "formerly" (hah!) owned--the Milwaukee Brewers.

I was watching ESPN last night while Buddy Boy took damage control measures to cover his ass. Not only was Milwaukee given another blow by its "hometown hero", he further re-enforced the fact that the All Star Game is nothing more than a run-of-the mill Exhibition Game. Furthermore, the small town shlepper that is the Commissioner was going to go public and announce several teams who "can't meet their payroll" and are on the verge of collapse.

While we are on it, the subject of Milwaukee and the Milwaukee Brewers is evidence of Selig's ineptitude.

For years, Selig strong armed the city of Milwaukee (and county too) as well as the state to build a new stadium or he would move the team. Well, the city and state did that. And what now?

I'll tell you what. Selig and his daughter (Wendy Selig-Prieb) have taken the team for an absolute ride. Numerous questionable trades over the years to clear out the talent (and payroll) and keep the team "financially fit". As if the city and state will go ahead and take mediocrity (beyond that, even) up the shorts. So the Brewers now have Richie Sexson--who is a bona fide all-star. After that, there are one or two position players in the in-field who deserve where they are now in the Major Leagues. No pitching. No bullpen. And a lot of hub-bub over Prince Fielder the number one draft choice. Believe me, when this guy starts getting good, Dean Taylor (the GM), will deal him away in what will be questionable at best.

And that pretty much sums up the Brewers. How does that relate to Buddy boy?

Well, last year, Mr Selig goes public and states that teams such as Minnesota and Montreal should be contracted! That's great! Two teams with HUGE possibilities to make it into the playoffs. And then Kansas City and Tampa Bay are mentioned in the next breath.

Well Gee, Bud. By all rights, Milwaukee fits into the same category as the above with one key difference: they suck worse than any other team right now. A key fit for "contraction" right?

Wrong. Buddy owns them. They stay. They will suck until something gets done. Will it get done? no. The owners group is keeping Bud in place.

Bud needs to go. He cries a river about salaries and has done nothing to keep it in line. Meanwhile his team wallows in the cellar lining his pockets while the fans in Milwaukee suffer. He needs to go back to selling cars.
 
AC320
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Fri Jul 12, 2002 11:06 am

Maybe he should do us all a favour and contract himself
fuddle duddle
 
learpilot
Posts: 783
Joined: Thu May 10, 2001 11:07 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Fri Jul 12, 2002 3:19 pm

NO MORE PITCHERS = NO MORE GAME!

No more pitchers? Who was throwing in the 11th inning then?
You mean to tell us that these guys who DEMAND, not command, but DEMAND millions of dollars a year to pitch can't throw a couple of extra innings and then go to the end of the rotation after a leaguewide day off? That's 5 days between having to do nothing more strenuous that putting their uniform on. It's the frickin All-Star game for christ sakes! The game that shows appreciation to the fans that pay their ridiculous salaries! These guys are world class athletes, they can't do that? They can't throw 30 more pitches?What do they get paid so much for?

Oh, yea. If they throw too many innings, their 'roided up arms will fall apart. Too bad they didn't boycott the game like they said they were going to. We could have started hating them a couple of days sooner.


Heed our warnings or your future will be underpant free!
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Sat Jul 13, 2002 5:33 am

Millionaires on strike for more money! Isn't that like waging war in order to have peace? All that Bud Selig is a wolf in sheep's clothing. It was the owners that put him in office, and he serves as nothing more than a puppet for the owners. As for the All-Star Game, the players were originally boycott the game since it was being played in Milwaukee (Selig "used to" own the Brewers), but changed their minds since the game is being played for not only the fans but for their retirement fund as well. Contraction is not a good idea, not because of the players that would lose jobs, but for those who work for the teams that are not players. Instead of contracting teams, why not move them to another city for five years, and if they still aren't making money, contract them then. The recent rumor about two teams not being able to make payroll is interesting as well. Last season, MLB loaned the Diamondbacks money to make payroll, and what did they do? They won the World Series. Two teams did in fact earlier this season have trouble making payroll: the Detroit Tigers and the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. Another problem plaguing baseball is expansion. Prior to the entry of the Florida Marlins and the Colorado Rockies, baseball went without an expansion for about 15 years. Then barely five years after these two teams entered the league, they added the Arizona Diamondbacks and the Tampa Bay Devil Rays into the league. The difference between the expansion teams of the 90s and those prior was the expansion draft. You used to start out with whatever free agents you could scrounge up, players that were past their prime, journeyman players, and guys that were in the farm systems of other clubs, but couldn't make the jump to the big leagues with that club. Now, clubs actually have to give up players in these drafts, usually they put their high-priced players up because they think that these teams would not wants to have to pay those big salaries, and they are right to an extent. My solution is this: get rid of two teams by merging them with another. My choices would be the Marlins and the Devil Rays, and split home games between the two cities until a final city is decided upon. Another possibilty would be the Angels and the Padres. As for the Expos, one could argue for merging them with the Blue Jays, but my solution with them is to move them to Charlotte, giving the Braves a true rival. Some people have been suggesting a move to Washington D.C., and playing at RFK Stadium, but they would have to payoff the Orioles for the lost revenue the Os would have. Or instead of merging teams, move them around a bit. The Expos to Charlotte, Marlins to Jacksonville, Devil Rays to San Antonio or Buffalo, Padres to Las Vegas, and the Angels to Sacramento. Back in the early 90s, teams would get new stadiums by saying they'll move the team, which is why Tropicana Field was built, because teams kept saying they'll move to St. Petersburg if they don't get a new stadium. In football, the Atlanta Falcons kept threatening to move to Jacksonville if they didn't get a new stadium. When it comes to building teams a new stadium, the funding should not entirely be the public's responsibility. Why should the people that don't even like baseball have to pay for by having their taxes raised. The majority of funding should come either from private sources, or bonds issued by the teams themselves, not the taxpayers. In Atlanta, the Georgia Dome was paid for with increased hotel taxes in Atlanta. Turner Field was privately financed through ACOG and the Braves paid for the conversion of the stadium after the 1996 Olympics. Philips Arena was financed through car rental taxes, not just in the City of Atlanta, but in the City of College Park, which is right by the airport. Make the owners more responsible for getting the ballparks built, because the days of publicly funding venues for overpriced sporting events is drawing to a close.
 
AC320
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Sat Jul 13, 2002 6:05 am

a fantastic regarding the Expos attendance saga of late and why the deserve to stay in Montreal:

Here's Number 1:

MLB should contract the Expos" said a longtime Braves fan in a disgusted voice.
"Baseball will never work in Montreal" said a sportswriter from Cleveland.
"The Expos would be better off in Washington" said a fan of the defunct Washington Senators, hoping to get baseball back in the US capital.
The irony in these statements is obvious enough to anyone who has had to take a ninth grade English class which studied literary techniques. Yet, in the wide world of sports, fans have short memories and sportswriters have even shorter ones. How else can you explain Skip Carrey attacking Expos fans for poor attendance during a Braves-Expos match when Atlanta was the epitome of lackluster fan support throughout the 70s and 80s?

The reasons why the Expos routinely drawing under 5,000 fans a game and crack 5 digits less often than a part of the Big Owe falls off are well known; The longest playoff drought in professional sports (checking in at 19 years), 90 loss season after 90 loss season, fire sale after fire sale, unstable ownership, and baseball's worst stadium, to name a few of the more common excuses. However, the point of this article is not to determine why the Expos draw small crowds; anyone who understands the situation this franchise is in can figure that out. The point of this article is to concretely look at the cold, hard attendance numbers of the Expos and other teams in Major League Baseball to show that, while fans may stay away from the Expos, they have stayed away from many others teams in the past and these teams have gone on to become some of the biggest drawers in the league. Hopefully, this will convince the doubters of the validity of baseball in Montreal, that the fans in Montreal have supported the team in the past and that they will support them in the future under better circumstances. Hopefully, this will convince them that Montreal does in fact deserve a major league baseball team.

To start things off, the Expos have drawn just a tad over 45.5 million fans since they burst on to the scene in 1969 for an average of 1,422,487 fans a season. Obviously, things have gotten worse over the past couple of years so let's break things down into nice little chunks:

Jarry Park (69-76): 1,111,424
Big O with Bronfman running team (77-89): 1,745,780
Big O with Brochu/Loria in charge (90-2000): 1,266,640

All things considered the Jarry Park numbers aren't terrible. The league average for that period was around 1.39 million so, considering the terrible teams the Expos had and the AAA stadium, coming close to those numbers is fairly good. The first 13 years at the Big O were attended solidly, even more so if you look at the 77-83 period when the team was winning and they drew an average of 1,906,374 fans a year. Although the crowds started dropping off in the late 80s, the numbers during that 13 year stretch were still better than six of the other NL teams over that span; Atlanta, Chicago, Houston, Pittsburgh, San Diego, and San Francisco. The Expos continued to draw respectably in the early 90s but fire sales and losing seasons plummeted the crowds to what Anne Robinson would call a humiliating, embarrassing, disgusting, pathetic, 1,173,066 fans a year on average between '95 and 2000. Most people would assume that this number is miles bellow the next lowest mark in MLB because of the constant abuse the Expos take in the media but in fact, Minnesota has checked in at 1,212,608 per year over that stretch and the 2000 AL West champion Oakland A's have drawn 1,309,600 a season on average. Yet, despite the shortcomings of these teams in the late 90s, they do not even come close to the low crowds drawn by some other teams in the history of MLB.

Everyone's favourite example is the Cleveland Indians. This is a team which recently had a league record, 455 game sellout streak come to an end. This is a team which has drawn over 3 million fans for 5 years in a row. This is also a team which was the laughing stock of MLB prior to that (We all saw Major League, right?). During their years at Cleveland Stadium from 1969 to 1993, the Indians average a whooping (get ready for this): 990,345 fans a year. While a lot has been made about the Expos drawing under a million fans last season, imagine averaging under a million fans a year for a 20+ year stretch. Not surprisingly, over that same time, Cleveland had the AL's worst attendance 10 times. That's about a third of the time. And for those of you who think the Expos have been their NL counterparts, last year was just the 4th time in their history that the Expos have had the NL's worst attendance, a mark exceeded by Atlanta (7), Pittsburgh (7), San Diego (5), and matched by San Francisco.

Of course, as you probably all know, things turned around in Cleveland fairly quickly. In fact, since moving into Jacobs Field, the Indians have seen their attendance more than triple over their Cleveland Stadium numbers. And while I know the following number has almost no relevance, if you increase the Expos Big O average attendance by the 217% Cleveland's has jumped, you get a team who would draw 4,837,972 fans a season. Obviously that would never happen but you have to figure that a new stadium help out quite a bit, especially when you consider the attendance hikes in Atlanta (60%), San Francisco (86%), and Houston (71%) compared to the 10 year periods before they moved in; 10 year periods, I might add, which all featured at least 2 playoff teams.

So is it just a stadium thing? Let's face it, there are only 3 domed stadiums left in MLB and all three cities were coincidentally among the 4 lowest attendances in MLB last year. The Minnesota Twins, one of the so-called lame brother small market teams of the Expos, feel that their domed stadium, the Metrodome, has outlived it's usefulness. The Twins have averaged a respectable 1,627,732 during their 19 seasons at the Metronome. In comparison, the Expos drew 1,626,284 first 19 years at Big O or 18 less fans a game (The all-time Big O average is 1,526,174 a year). Wondering how some other doomed domes did? The Mariners averaged 1,211,004 their first 19 years in the Kingdome (1,435,303 total), the Astros averaged 1,420,366 their first 19 seasons in the mother of all domes (1,620,877 total), and, after drawing 2.5 million fans their inaugural season, the Devil Rays have averaged 1,506,250 fans their past two years.

Still, even though the Expos numbers match up well with these other domed teams, in the end it comes down to a "what have you done for me lately approach?". As it was previously mentioned, the Expos have had trouble drawing fans since 1994, averaging just under 1.2 million over that stretch. While I could rattle off a series of teams who have averaged worse crowds than that over a 5 year period (we previously mentioned Cleveland doing this over a 25 year period), it is true that crowds have increased around MLB so we should look at the Expos crowd relative to the MLB average to get a good idea of just how bad the situation in Montreal really is. From 1995 to 2000, the Expos have drawn 54% of the MLB average. Now, you're probably wondering if anyone else has sunk to this dubious low in the past and the answer is...yes. Take the '85-'90 Braves who drew 13,993 a match over that span for a cool 57% of the MLB average. Or the '80-'85 Indians who drew 52% of the MLB average. And don't get me started on the '81-'86 Pirates who drew 54% of the MLB average. And then there were those 6 years in the 70s when the Giants drew 55% of the MLB average. Or that stretch between '75-'81 when the Braves drew exactly half of the MLB average, making them prime contraction material. And in the "how low can you go?" category, between 1975 and 1980, the Oakland A's drew crowds which were 41% of the MLB average! Not one of these teams were contracted or moved, and 4 of those 5 franchises have been able to assure their futures with new stadiums in the past decade. And remember that in the first example, the Braves of the late 80s, it took them all of one season to turn things around and start drawing 2 million + on a routine basis. Maybe all the Expos need is a worst to first season to start packing the Big Owe to pre-fire sale levels again. Food for thought.

And no attendance comparison would be complete without mention of the chick relocation candidate these days: Washington DC. This is a team which finished dead last in AL attendance in 1955. While that in itself isn't bad, it should be noted that the Senators' rank in 1956 was a resounding...dead last. How about 1957, you ask? Yup, you guessed it. Or 1958? Last. While I could go on, I do want to get this article finished while the Expos are still in Montreal so I'll just say that between 1955 and 1961, the Senators were dead last in AL attendance every single year. From '55 to '66, they were last or second to last every season when it came to bringing fans out to the ballpark.To put this into perspective, the Expos have been one of the two worst drawing teams in their league four years in a row. To match DC's record of futility, they would need to be one of the worst two drawing teams in the NL until 2008. And we all know that, one way or the other, that isn't going to happen. Also, in the 80 years that DC has baseball, they only hit the league average on 5 occasions. That's an incredible 6% of the time. Wow! I'm surprised DC isn't fighting off half a dozen teams trying to get into this baseball hotbed. Now, just for the record, I'm not saying baseball wouldn't work in DC now since my whole argument is that teams draw poorly when they are placed in bad situations and that they can easily turn things around, as witnessed by Atlanta, Cleveland and a number of other cities. I'm just saying that Montreal has supported their team in the past whereas DC, well, in a word, hasn't.

Is 4,300 fans for a game embarasing? Yes, it is. Would I like the Expos to draw bigger crowds? Yes, I would. Do these small crowds make Montreal a bad baseball town? Absolutely not. What the Expos have been through the past couple of years is nothing compared to Cleveland, Atlanta, Washington or a handful of other cities. The fact is, all cities go through good and bad times attendance-wise, and the Expos are going through a bad time right about now. Even the mighty New York Mets have struggled drawing fans in the past; the Expos outdrew them 3 times in the 90s. But just like the bulk of the other teams who have struggled in the past, Montreal is fully capable of turning it around, they just need to get out of their domed stadium (as we've seen, domed stadiums appear to be the kiss of death for attendance) and to start winning a few more games. However, until that happens, Montreal and it's baseball fans should not be blamed for failing to support their team.

Source: http://saveourexpos.tripod.com/saveourexpos/id11.html
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They played the Braves last night to a crowd of 11,855. They are starting to come back now that we've had a good first half, and if the second half goes well numbers will still rise, and if they win the wild card we should see 20,000-30,000+ easlily through a playoff run.

There's a strong rumour that the Bronfman family may be considering leading a new group to purchase the team. yes, its a rumour, but let's hope there's some truth to it.

fuddle duddle
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Sat Jul 13, 2002 8:21 am

Fold the Orioles? Why on earth? At least they still are drawing fans. The Expos have no tradition, just a few good players. Get rid of the Devil Rays, Marlins, or Expos before anyone else.
I would say they are drawing fans because they are in a good market not because the team is good.The Expos have a proven track record of developing good/excellent major league talent....and losing it through free agency and trades brought about by free agency.Orioles=bad franchise in a bad market.
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Sat Jul 13, 2002 8:28 am

Orioles=bad franchise in a big market that should say
 
blink182
Posts: 5273
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 1999 3:09 am

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Sat Jul 13, 2002 8:41 am

Regarding new stadiums , I agree.

A prime example of this was the AA Centre in Dallas. Hicks and Perot(then owner of the Mavericks) wanted a new arena. Between the two of them, they could afford 20 arenas. Of course, they play stubborn and refuse to pay for it. Meanwhile, Dallas has its citizens vote and it passed by the narrowest of margins. The Stars played extremely well in Reunion Arena and the Mavericks were beginning to win. When AA Center opens, you know what happens? The Stars, loaded with talent, miss the playoffs for the first time in six years. From a spectator's standpoint, AA Centre sucks. The jumbotron is so friggin' high that from where I sit(3 rows above the ice) I end up having a sore neck from look up at it. Also, it has 8 screens on it, however, only 4 show the game and the other 4 have the number of shots and the score with the time. Pretty lame, huh? The ice... oh boy, big problems there. The Stars are not a fast team, the freezing ice only made it worse for them whereas the Reunion Arena ice was warm and soft. That gave the Stars a huge advantage and now that advantage is lost. Also, AA Center at max volume could never be as loud as Reunion Arena was. The place is so open it's not even funny, whereas Reunion Arena was deafening.

I was never pro- AA Center from the beginning, and this only reconfirms why. Sure, it has luxury boxes: Who gives a sh*t? I don't go to the game for the comforts, I go to the game for the game. I hope none of you end up getting ripped off like my city did.

Moreso back to the topic. Realizing that these players are being paid incredible amounts, they have no right to strike. I cannot believe Bud Selig cancled the all-star game because the "teams had run out of pitchers." Who cares? Just put guys back in. I do not like Bud Selig at all.

blink
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Sun Jul 14, 2002 3:39 am

If keeping the Expos in Montreal is so important why hasn't the team been able to get financing for a new stadium? Before he sold them to MLB, the previous owner had developed a plan for a new stadium for the team. It was a 15,000 seat stadium, which would have been just the right size considering the attendance woes of the team. But what happened? No bank would provide any financing for the stadium, and the Quebec government didn't want to suffer with having to help pay for the stadium, especially since they got snakebit with Olympic Stadium. One of the reasons why Wayne H. (I can't remember how to spell his last name) sold the Marlins was because the local governments wouldn't finance a stadium for him; can you blame them? He essentially bought a championship, and promptly held a fire sale. The new ownership under Henry was no better in getting a new stadium as well, which is why when the Yawkey Trust pust the Red Sox up for sale, he jumped at the chance to buy them and unload the Marlins on someone else. Then came the contraction talk, and the Expos owner wanted out of Montreal (as in move the team), but was unable to, so he sold the team to MLB, and bought the Marlins. But will he be able to get the team a new stadium? I highly doubt it.
 
AC320
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: Baseball Is A Joke!

Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:07 am

It was a 35,000 seat stadium. The Government offered a loan to cover half the projected costs of building the stadium, and even had a corporate sponser in the form of Labbatt Breweries but even that wasn't enough for Loria, and for reasons that escape me, simply let his stadium plan die. Before he bought the Marlins Loria was sure to stab everyone in the back, fans, media, and government before he left.
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