Rai
Topic Author
Posts: 1697
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:12 pm

Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 2:13 am

Wow. I can't believe I'm starting an I. vs P. thread, but I think this looks pretty encouraging. Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of the Palestinian Muslim militant group Hamas, said that his group will consider stopping suicide missions if Israeli military forces leave the West Bank. The ball may be in Israel's court now.

Here's the link to the story.
 
saintsman
Posts: 2037
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 12:34 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 4:36 am

This is serious. What will people argue about on A net if that happens?
 
wn700driver
Posts: 1475
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 10:55 pm

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 5:52 am

NW, that was rude, & on top of that, not very original.

Related to the thread: This looks very promising. I will be watching this one closely.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 5:58 am

If Hamas are dead serious about stopping suicide attacks if Israel leaves the illegally occupied areas, then this is a positive move, anything that will get the sides closer to peace must be pursued vigorously. The question is, is Israel prepared to leave the occupied areas permanently like they have stated all along?

Arsenal@LHR
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Guest

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 6:11 am

Well I hope it's not just some Hamas scam. I'd like to see the suicide bombing stop.

The issue here is one of pride I think. They've offered an ultimatum, "we will stop the suicide bombing if you leave the west bank". Will Israel accept an ultimatum? Should they accept it? After all, it then puts the Hamas in a position of power over them. I think they should accept it as a first step to peace, but do others agree?

Will the Hamas keep their word or will they consider this a victory and ask for more concessions.

It's hard to say but worth watching.



VH-ADG
 
Guest

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 6:18 am

Actually, I think this is excellent news.

The Israelis - and the Palestinians - need to learn compromise, same as the Republicans and the British did over Northern Ireland. There will be plenty of testing times to come, but if both sides are truly committed then this could well be the first step on the path to peace.
 
nonrevman
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 6:22 am

I usually avoid these threads but do have one concern here. Hamas is not the only fish in the sea. Will Islamic Jihad and other groups go along with this as well?
 
Guest

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 6:35 am

Hasn't Hamas made announcments like this before?
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 8:24 am

Hasn't Hamas made announcments like this before?

Yes we probably have, but let's hope it's true this time.

Arsenal@LHR
In Arsene we trust!!
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 9:25 am

Definately the Israeli responce will be the key to make this good looking situation really be good.
 
Rai
Topic Author
Posts: 1697
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:12 pm

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 9:43 am

Well, I don't know if the offer will still stand as it was just reported that the leader of the military wing of Hamas was just killed.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 10:43 am

I'd love to believe this, but I also have to say that on the way home tonight from work, there was a news report that Hamas is vowing revenge for the airstrikes in Gaza City tonight, aimed at a top Hamas militant.

It's a shame neither side will back off, but it will also be interesting to see if Hamas vows revenge just hours after saying they might stop attacks.

And SAS23, that was one of the best posts you've ever made on here. Balanced and straightforward. Well done.
 
Guest

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 3:39 pm

I'd love to believe this, but I also have to say that on the way home tonight from work, there was a news report that Hamas is vowing revenge for the airstrikes in Gaza City tonight, aimed at a top Hamas militant.

Guess the IDF have told the Hamas what they think of their offer.

It's a shame neither side will back off, but it will also be interesting to see if Hamas vows revenge just hours after saying they might stop attacks.

Unfortunately I suspect they will respond, after all .. they offer the olive branch and the IDF attack. Now we will most likely never know what might have happened if only ......





VH-ADG
 
Guest

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 4:54 pm

Unfortunately, it looks like the Israelis might well have blown this very real opportunity for peace with the assassination of a top Hamas member, Sheikh Salah Shehada ... which killed twelve people, four of them young children. This brings to 1,447 Palestinians and 559 Israelis killed since September 2000.

http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/index.cfm?id=791282002

Reading between the lines, it would appear that there is a power struggle going on in the Israeli government between the hawks (who want a 'final solution' to the Palestinian problem) and the doves who realise that war gets no-one anywhere and would like a realistic negotiated peace. Doubtless there is a similar struggle going on in the Palestinian camp as well ... we on the sideline can only hope and pray that it's the doves that will win.
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 5:31 pm

SAS, assassination is the wrong word. They conducted a military strike against a military headquarters (or at least a headquarters of a building engaged in military operations against their country).

Hamas is the military arm of the PLO, and therefore any and all of their assets, including sheikhs, are military targets.

Would you have called the death of Hitler in WW2 an assassination if a British or American bomb had hit the building he was in at the time?
I wish I were flying
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 5:45 pm

Arsenal@LHR

In response to TWAneedsnohelp's wuestion 'Hasn't Hamas said this before',

You answered 'yes WE have....'

Does that mean you are a member of Hamas? Big grin
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Guest

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 5:53 pm

Jwenting - the deliberate targetting of an individual is an assassination, regardless of whether it happens in peace time or in war. Reinhard Heydrich was assassinated by the SOE, for example. And yes, if the British had known that Hitler was in a specific building and they targeted that building specifically for the purposes of killing him ... then that would have been an assassination as well.

Incidentally, Hamas is NOT the military wing of the PLO ... Fatah is; and the building that was targetted was Sheikh Shehada's private residence, not a 'military headquarters' as you stated.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 6:04 pm

You got me wondering about that "we" comment to.

Well done to the IDF, did they confirm they got him yet.

I haven't been able to figure out what makes a guy who is directing a terrorist operation out of his basement not a legitmate target.

And he is the one to blame for what happens if he chooses to use his family as human shields.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Guest

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 7:17 pm

L-188, he wasn't using his family as a 'human shield' any more than you or anyone else does.

Good grief!
 
David_itl
Posts: 5970
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 7:31 pm

Extracts from the BBC story:

Sheikh Salah Shahada was among at least 15 people killed, including eight children, in the missile attack. About 140 people were injured in the attack, and local officials said that more people could be buried under the rubble.

The Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, congratulated his forces on the air strike, which he described as "a great success".

Mr Sharon - who reportedly gave his personal approval for the operation - expressed regret for the civilian deaths, but said there could be no "compromise with terror".

David
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 7:38 pm

He isn't holding a gun to a hostage and making them stand in front of them no.

But the intent is the same. Hoping that his house won't get bombed because his family is there.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Guest

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 7:40 pm

If Sharon gave his personal approval for the operation, I think that clearly demonstrates that he has no interest whatsoever in making peace with the Palestinians ... despite their outstretched hand of friendship.

Unfortunately, I think we can expect retaliatory strikes against Israel as a result ... and so the tit-for-tat cycle of violence continues.

Truly, a sad day for all Israelis and Palestinians.  Sad
 
delta-flyer
Posts: 2631
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2001 9:47 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations.

Tue Jul 23, 2002 9:34 pm

SAS23....If Sharon gave his personal approval for the operation, I think that clearly demonstrates that he has no interest whatsoever in making peace with the Palestinians ...

You know what? I agree with you. Sharon doesn't want peace any more than the Palestinians do. But there were 50 years of Israeli leaders before him who did. Looks like time has run out.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 9:49 pm

In "we", i mean the general public, so no connection with hamas with me lol  Smile
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Guest

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 10:04 pm

Regardless of whether you believe the Hamas or not, a terrible thing has occurred. They have proven that Israel isn't interested in peace, they have poven that no matter what they say they cannot stop the IDF.

Do you really comprehend what that means? Can you really understand what the IDF have done tonight?

The Hamas and the rest of the organisations in Palestine no longer have peace to aim for, Israel has taken that hope from them. They only have death left.

The war in the Middle East just took a turn for the worst and Israel has no one to blame for any further deaths in Israel but themselves. To all the Israelis here, god help you all from the actions of your government.

Sharon = widowmaker.




VH-ADG
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 10:56 pm

If Sharon gave his personal approval for the operation, I think that clearly demonstrates that he has no interest whatsoever in making peace with the Palestinians.

Why? Because Israel took out a man who has no interest whatsoever in making peace with them? That's a little hypocritical, don't you think? This man is one of those nuts who wants to destroy Isarel, and you say his murder will sour the path for peace? Get real, SAS23!

Regardless of whether you believe the Hamas or not, a terrible thing has occurred.

Speak for yourself, lady. The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist. And this guy is as dead as yesterday's fish, now. Good riddence.

Do you really comprehend what that means? Can you really understand what the IDF have done tonight?

Yes, they ended the life of a terrorist leader who has vowed Israel's destruction. Maybe you're ready to cry, ADG, but I certainly am not.

The Hamas and the rest of the organisations in Palestine no longer have peace to aim for...

ROTFL-you're assuming Hamas WANTED peace-they never did, and if you try to peddle that lie on here, ADG, you're more naive than I ever could have thought! Hamas publically stated goal is the destruction of Israel. If you deny what they themselves have said for years, what does that make you? (I can just hear the same old tired, stale personal insults coming from you right now....)

The war in the Middle East just took a turn for the worst and Israel has no one to blame for any further deaths in Israel but themselves..

Translation in plain English: Terrorism is justified against Israel, simply becuase they killed this low-life terrorist. Thank you, ADG, for cementing your place in THI. Now, go out and hug your favorite terrorist, ADG, it'll make your day.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13222
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 11:41 pm

Without leadership terrorists are just street thugs, terrorists groups are just another type of organized crime. Take away their leadership and their skilled people (bomb makers) and they're just a bunch of stone chuckers.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Tue Jul 23, 2002 11:56 pm

I really thought this was a decent proposal from hamas, and that Israel might pursue a peace deal down this avenue. But obviously that won't happen since they attacked and killed the hamas leader.

Just wait for a breaking news for another deadly suicide bombing.

*sigh*

Arsenal@LHR
In Arsene we trust!!
 
David_itl
Posts: 5970
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Wed Jul 24, 2002 12:10 am

Alpha1

Yeah, they got "their" target but at what cost? 14 other people dead and scores injured. Think of it like up to 14 families (or Hamas*) now vowing to take "revenge" against Israel/Israelis. And for each atroctity that may happen against Israel, Sharon will order reprisals. Hamas (or whoever) will then seek to avenge whatever deaths occur following these reprisals. Sharon will then order more reprisals, only to lead further "avenging" by Hamas, etc.

* Actually, Hamas will probably say "we've now got 15 more martyrs who died in our struggle" and that they will now seek to kill that many "military" officials, with the by-product of hundreds of civilian deaths.

No one wins here...specifically those Israelis and Palestinians who just want to live in peace.

David
 
Guest

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Wed Jul 24, 2002 6:38 pm

I really thought this was a decent proposal from hamas, and that Israel might pursue a peace deal down this avenue. But obviously that won't happen since they attacked and killed the hamas leader.

I would have thought that given the violence in the area that any chance of peace, however remote some claim it to be, would be worth investigating. However, now we will never know if they were serious or not.

All we know now is how violent Ariel Sharon is and how far his hatred goes.



VH-ADG
 
Guest

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:34 pm

Apparently Israel is trying to tell us that their intelligence told them that the target was alone and there were no innocent civilans near him when they dropped a 1 tonne bomb into a residential area in Gaza.

Sounds realistic doesn't it ... (not)

Lies, lies and more lies ???...

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20020723/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_civilian_casualties_1&e=5


VH-ADG
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:35 pm

Alpha1! I think that you should be a bit more real. This is not one of your video games in which you could be happy to kill a target at a cost. But this is real life. I see to it that you didn't even mentioned the civil life loss as if it never happened. This time answer me with out turning the topic, How would it feel to you if you and your family were among the dead??? Or if you were injured and your family was dead??? EVEN IF you say this is accepable, this way of thinking of yours or anyone else does not gives you ANY right to take the lifes of others. You may have the right to take your life, but not of anyone else's.
"Hamas don't want peace." What about their proposal?? Even if you say that it was a trick, you have no right to be sure. Israel missed the chance. I know had the situation been reversed, such that Israel would have made a peace offer (which I doubt that the war crimes crimal would EVER do), and the Hamas responce would have been another attack saying that Israel doesnot want peace, you would have been screming out loud!
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Wed Jul 24, 2002 10:08 pm

Lies, lies and more lies ???...

Of course, you would know better, ADG. You were there, right? You were there when the intelligence brief was put out, right?

You want it both ways: you expect intelligence to be pefect-which, you might be surprised to know, it rarely is. You put intelligence services to a standard that their own goverments don't put them to, and when they aren't perfect, you find it as a reason to call them liars? You need a reality check, my dear.

How would it feel to you if you and your family were among the dead???

Well, seeing that me and my family would never be around such a creep, it's an irrelevant question, isn't it? You can try to lay such a trap on me, but it won't work. As I said in another thread, I suspect these 14 people with him knew perfectly well what and who he was. How would YOU feel if you put your family in harms way by hanging around a know murderer and terrorists? You asked me the quesiton, so I'm asking it back, in a slightly different light.

As for Hamas' proposal, I am naturally skeptical about it. This is a group that has vowed the destruction of Israel-don't deny that, because it is part of their "mission statement" if you will. It's there for all to see over the years. If it IS legitimate, then they will not withdraw it because of this attack. If it is NOT legitimate, they will use this attack as an excuse to step up the violence.

Having said that, I'm certainly not happy with the timing of Israel's attack on this Hamas leader. I won't shed any tears for him, and it is very tragic that civilians were killed, but I can't condemn it the way even our own White House did. I DO think Israel should have thought twice about this attack with a first-ever offer to stop attack from Hamas on the table.

As for Israel not wanting peace, ask Egypt and Jordan about that. And, while you're at it, ask Arafat, who had a proposal that would have gone a long way toward making Palestine a legitimate state, and it was the PA that threw that one away.

Clearly, as I told RyanB741, both sides need to rething all their policies vis-a-vis each other. I don't think there's more than a few souls on here who wouldn't agree with that.
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Wed Jul 24, 2002 11:32 pm

Well firstly let me tell ya that this is one post of your that has more than a bit to which I would agree. No one here is blindly supporting the terrorists, but you were giving the impression of blind support for Israel. But with this said I have something else to say as well:

"Well, seeing that me and my family would never be around such a creep, it's an irrelevant question, isn't it? You can try to lay such a trap on me, but it won't work. As I said in another thread, I suspect these 14 people with him knew perfectly well what and who he was. How would YOU feel if you put your family in harms way by hanging around a know murderer and terrorists? You asked me the quesiton, so I'm asking it back, in a slightly different light."
Thsi wasn't irrelevnant question AT ALL.
Do you blame those 9 children to be proving the shelter to him???
Do you think that they knew about that person????
Had you enough sense when you were of their age???
Just to remind you that there were 14 known civilian casualties and more are feared dead 140 injured and out of 14 dead 9 were children.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Thu Jul 25, 2002 12:12 am

Do you blame those 9 children to be proving the shelter to him???

The children, absolutely not. The adults who put them in harms way, yes.

 
Krushny
Posts: 756
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2000 4:22 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Thu Jul 25, 2002 2:29 am

What has striken me about this new terrible episode of the I/P conflict, is the timing of the attack.
As I have said before in this forum, every step or gesture towards peace is going to be contested by the extremists of either side. In this case, as you can see in this thread, Hamas made first a declaration to consider stopping suicide bombing if Israel withdrew from the occupied territories. Personally I am very skeptical that this offer was honest, Hamas does not have much credibility to me. And even if Hamas decided to stop terrorism, there would probably be a split off group (Hamas "Authentic" or something like that) that would not agree with the parent organization and would continue terror.
And just after this Hamas declaration, Israel sends a missile to this Hamas leader, not caring that he was in a densely populated area and that civilian casualties were going to happen. To me, this precipitous action looks more like the response of an extremist to an encouraging declaration than anything else. And it looks like Sharon was behind it, it has been reported that he approved this action. It was like Sharon answering to Sheik Yassin : "stop this BS you talked today, your role is being our deadly enemies".

As I see it and have said before, the leadership of both sides has to change as soon as possible. With the guys on top these ME people will go nowhere, and Sharon has revealed today even more like an obstacle to peace. Arafat is badly touched, and for the international community, it is time now to turn on the heat and put all the pressure so that this guy leaves the scene immediately .
 
Krushny
Posts: 756
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2000 4:22 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Thu Jul 25, 2002 2:45 am

Another thing, this "human shield" crap sickens me.
When our local terrorist group (ETA) murders someone, and also kills the wife or a child of him (this has happened with car bombs that affect not only the targeted person but also the kid he was taking to school, etc), they say that they are very sorry, but the kid would not have died if he had not been used as a "human shield". So according to ETA, if you do not agree with their views (which makes you its target), you have no right to live in your house with your family. And if something happens to your family, it is your fault, and the bastard who puts the bomb or pulls the trigger is blameless.
And I read some guys here posting the same things ETA says in Spain, to clear Israel of any responsability of the kid deaths yesterday. Guys, you are stepping dangerous ground... you are talking like terrorists and not like the civilised persons you think you are. Stop this "human shield" crap, please.


 
Rai
Topic Author
Posts: 1697
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:12 pm

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Thu Jul 25, 2002 2:51 am

What does ETA stand for??


(filler)
 
Krushny
Posts: 756
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2000 4:22 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Thu Jul 25, 2002 2:56 am

Euskadi Ta Askatasuna .
Basque words which I believe mean "Basque Country and Liberty".
 
Guest

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Thu Jul 25, 2002 6:34 am

Of course, you would know better, ADG. You were there, right? You were there when the intelligence brief was put out, right?

I know 2 things Alpha1. I know what i've read from a variety of sources which all contradicts your statements and I know you weren't there.

You want it both ways: you expect intelligence to be pefect-which, you might be surprised to know, it rarely is.

It might surprise you to know Alpha1, that i'm fully aware of what intelligence is, how it's gathered and what it's used for. I also know that you were not only not there, but you're not privy to the intelligence information from Israel. I also know that media reports do not agree with the statements you are making.

You put intelligence services to a standard that their own goverments don't put them to,

Not so. Not you've pushed yourself into a corner your just trying to argue your way out.

and when they aren't perfect, you find it as a reason to call them liars?

Well Alpha1, it's quite easy to put 2 and 2 together and make 4. They tell us intelligence told them he was alone and yet they put a 1 tonne bomb into a residential area at about midnight. You tell me how he could POSSIBLY have been alone.

You need a reality check, my dear.

Actually Alpha1, YOU need a reality check, your hatred of all things arab has led you to make absolutely ludicrous statements this time. I'm not sure how you can pull yourself out of othe hole you've dug for yourself now.

Well, seeing that me and my family would never be around such a creep, it's an irrelevant question, isn't it?

Good evade. Answer the question.

You can try to lay such a trap on me, but it won't work.

No, because it wouldn't suit your purpose to admit what you know, you would NOT sacrifice your 3 year old for anyone.

As I said in another thread, I suspect these 14 people with him knew perfectly well what and who he was.

You suspect? You don't know. The fact is that you ASSume they do so that you can justify in your own mind, the murder of 14 people and the injuries to hundreds more. Simplistic view, simplistic thinking and as yet, non proven statement.

How would YOU feel if you put your family in harms way by hanging around a know murderer and terrorists? You asked me the quesiton, so I'm asking it back, in a slightly different light.

I wouldn't knowingly put my family in that situation, HOWEVER I don't know all the people in the suburb I live in, if Osama Bin Laden lived 5 houses down from me I would certainly NOT feel it was justified to dump a 1 tonne bomb on sunny Gilmore, Australia to kill one man. There is that possibility which you convenently chose to ignore.

There are a mulitude of things to consider. Perhaps they didn't know, perhaps they did, perhaps there are circumstances that stop them from moving (you know, lack of money lack of housing that type of thing). You don't know the circumstances and yet you are very quick to condem. Children by the way, cannot be held accountable for the actions of their parents but as yet, from what i've seen, you have expressed no sorrow over the deaths, indeed you've been crowing about it.

As for Hamas' proposal, I am naturally skeptical about it.

That's fine, as you claim there is history there. But that does NOT justify ignoring the statement completely, it merely means they should GO INTO THE PEACE PROCESS carefully and with scepticism.

This is a group that has vowed the destruction of Israel-don't deny that, because it is part of their "mission statement" if you will.

So what? We've been told Israel wants peace, they get offered potential peace and they IMMEDIATELY and with great prejudice orchestrate a situation where the peace offer is not only withdrawn, but withdrawn with threats of more violence, the situation will most likely escallate and you and your members of ZHI will be out here screaming for blood each and every time, conveniently forgetting that a cessation of the bombing *may* mave occurred had Israel not bombed a residential area in Gaza.

You do realise they could simply have put a sniper outside his door and got him in the morning or some other similar option that didn't involve a 1 tonne bomb and a residential area full of people

It's there for all to see over the years. If it IS legitimate, then they will not withdraw it because of this attack.

What a lot of rubbish. Of course they will withdraw it, as would ANY country in the same situation. An offer like that, if legitimate, would have NOT been with 100% support of the whole organisation (nothing like that ever is), now the people who supported it have seen what Israel thinks of their attempts for peace, they won't support it any more.

Come on alpha1, you're not that stupid surely?

If it is NOT legitimate, they will use this attack as an excuse to step up the violence.

It's not an excuse. This attack is a continuation of the circle of violence, 14 civilians were killed in a horrific use of excessive force do you really think for one minute a response isn't justified? I think differently.

Having said that, I'm certainly not happy with the timing of Israel's attack on this Hamas leader.

And yet you'll blindly support them. Be a man Alpha1, condemn the attack. It was nothing more than an agressive response to tell the Palsetinians that Israel doesn't want peace.

and it is very tragic that civilians were killed, but I can't condemn it the way even our own White House did.

Then, quite frankly, you're a fool. The whitehouse was right to condemn the actions, they are NOT in any way similar to what the US is doing in Afghanistan or the UN are doing anywhere else. It was nothing more than a terrorist attack.

I DO think Israel should have thought twice about this attack with a first-ever offer to stop attack from Hamas on the table.

first ever offer? I thought they'd done this before (ad nauseum?).

As for Israel not wanting peace, ask Egypt and Jordan about that.

I don't have to. I've seen what Israels response is when offered the olive branch.

And, while you're at it, ask Arafat, who had a proposal that would have gone a long way toward making Palestine a legitimate state, and it was the PA that threw that one away.

Irrelevant. One doesn't cancel the other out.

Clearly, as I told RyanB741, both sides need to rething all their policies vis-a-vis each other. I don't think there's more than a few souls on here who wouldn't agree with that.

I only wish you actually believed it, because it's what many of us are trying to argue here and it's what you vehemently disagree with.





VH-ADG
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Thu Jul 25, 2002 7:07 am

I wouldn't knowingly put my family in that situation, HOWEVER I don't know all the people in the suburb I live in, if Osama Bin Laden lived 5 houses down from me I would certainly NOT feel it was justified to dump a 1 tonne bomb on sunny Gilmore, Australia to kill one man. There is that possibility which you convenently chose to ignore.

And this, everyone, is the crux of the matter. Willingly killing innocent civilians in order to kill one man. As ADG correctly pointed out, there were probably many other military options available, maybe snipers would have been more effective. The U.S. was faced with a similar situation in Ethiopia and had to send in troops, much to our detriment. But it was their obligation NOT to harm civilians in an effort to root out terrorism.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Thu Jul 25, 2002 11:55 am

I know 2 things Alpha1. I know what i've read from a variety of sources which all contradicts your statements and I know you weren't there.

I wasn't? Gee, I could have sworn I was!!  Big grin

Arrogance on your part. You don't know from your own rear end what the intel was; what was going on. For you to say you know and I don't, well, that's pretty astounding. I know I don't know, but more power to you since you are obviously superior to the rest of us.

But that does NOT justify ignoring the statement completely, it merely means they should GO INTO THE PEACE PROCESS carefully and with scepticism.

Who the hell said I was ignoring it-I said I was SKEPTICAL, ADG. That implies caution.

Good evade. Answer the question.

I did answer it-it's never going to happen. What the hell is your problem with that?

No, because it wouldn't suit your purpose to admit what you know, you would NOT sacrifice your 3 year old for anyone.

On difference, ADG-I wouldn't put my 3 year old in a position to be sacrificed or killed-this low-lifes did do that to these kids.

You suspect? You don't know.

No, dearie, I don't know-and neither do you! One difference between you and me, girl, is that I'm not afraid to say I DON'T KNOW. You are. If you are saying you DO know, you're a fool.

So what?

So what, you say. So what, that they have said their goal is the destruction if Israel. You act as if that has no meaning; no relavance. It is VERY relevant, ADG. If you were against a group in Australia who proclaimed every day "we wish to destroy you", you'd think it pretty relevant. How naive of you.

The whitehouse was right to condemn the actions, they are NOT in any way similar to what the US is doing in Afghanistan or the UN are doing anywhere else.

Are you now in support of the U.S./Allied actions in Afghanistan, ADG?

first ever offer? I thought they'd done this before (ad nauseum?).

From Hamas? As you like to say to me-go show me proof of them ever offering a cease-fire.

I don't have to. I've seen what Israels response is when offered the olive branch.

You obviously don't, dear. They accepted the offers of peace from Anwar Sadat and King Hussein. Try seeing things as they are for once.

I only wish you actually believed it, because it's what many of us are trying to argue here and it's what you vehemently disagree with.

Fine, ADG, call me a liar to your heart's content. I have said this over and over and over and over and over. You ignore it because you wish to-it makes your own extreme positions more palatable to your mind.

Agian-BOTH SIDES NEED TO CHANGE HOW THEY DEAL WITH EACH OTHER. ISRAEL NEEDS TO STOP BUILDING SETTLEMENTS; ISRAEL NEEDS TO GIVE BACK SOME LAND IN EXCHANGE FOR SECURITY; THE PALESTINIANS MUST DISAVOW TERROR; THE PALESTINIANS MUST UNRESERVEDLY RECOGNIZE ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO EXIST.

Now, is that clear enough for you ADG, our should I come over the to Oz, let you borrow my hearing aids and scream it in your ears, for Christ Sake?

And golly, stop the presses-Hepkat agreed with ADG. Boy, I'm shocked.
 
Guest

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Thu Jul 25, 2002 6:16 pm

ignoring the major yarp ...

And golly, stop the presses-Hepkat agreed with ADG. Boy, I'm shocked.

Did you know something more shocking .. he may agree because it's right ...



VH-ADG
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Thu Jul 25, 2002 9:51 pm

Well, seeing that you're rarely right, ADG, I think that says volumns for what Hepkat said. Big grin
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Fri Jul 26, 2002 10:13 am

ISRAEL NEEDS TO STOP BUILDING SETTLEMENTS; ISRAEL NEEDS TO GIVE BACK SOME LAND IN EXCHANGE FOR SECURITY

SOME OF THE LAND?????????????????????????? YOU STEAL $1000 FROM SONEONE AND THEN GIVE HIM BACK 5 OR 10 OR 100 OR SO AND EXPECT HIM TO STAY QUIET?????????????????????????????

; THE PALESTINIANS MUST DISAVOW TERROR; THE PALESTINIANS MUST UNRESERVEDLY RECOGNIZE ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO EXIST.
WITH ALL THE LAND GIVEN BACK AND ALL DONE LEGALLY (which Israel never will I think) WHAT WILL BE LEFT OF IT??? BY THE WAY THE ILLEGAL LAWAS LIKE "LAW OF ABANDONED PROPERTY" IS NOT LEGAL.


 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Hamas To Consider Stopping Suicide Operations...

Fri Jul 26, 2002 11:34 am

Bravo-you don't need to yell through your whole post!

By "some land", I do mean the occupied territories. Why not just ask me what the hell I meant, instead of screaming at me?  Smile

And I have not a clue as to what you're babbling about in the second paragraph. None whatsoever.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 17 guests