sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:00 am

As I can see, it's the new important question in this forum: who makes the best cars ?

I'm sorry for you dears, but the Magazine AUTO PLUS who tested OBJECTIVELY French, Italian, German and Japanese cars (the 4 better countries), gave the most points to French cars.
The criteria were not the top speed, or the look, or the ability to impress your friends - which seems to be the most important in the US - but fuel economy, reliability, comfort, price, efficiency, ...
Tests were made for each different category, France won most of them.

Sorry guys.

PS: Auto plus is owned by a German group and is regularly suspected of favoritism for German cars.
 
Marcus
Posts: 1666
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 5:08 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:04 am

French cars won?.......really?.....whatever happened to:

Heaven is having:
A French wife and a German car

Hell is having:
A German wife and a French car
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:05 am

Sobelino, you're going to have a hard time with this one. The Americans on this board will recall how crappy older French cars were, and will assume that current French cars haven't progressed beyond that point. It's the same thing with diesel powered cars, they still think of the old 1980's cars that were diesel powered and automatically assume current diesels are the same.

In any case, I have been in French cars recently, and they have improved a lot. They used to have really flexible bodies, with soft but poorly damped suspensions, but really soft seats to absorb impacts (and make me car sick). But the latest ones I've been in are much nicer cars, even if some of them are nasty to look at.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
flight152
Posts: 3211
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:04 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:06 am

ROFLMAO!  Laugh out loud  Laugh out loud  Laugh out loud

Ohhh yes, those Renaults surely have the "the look, or the ability to impress your friends ".  Yeah sure

*Dripping with sarciasm*
 
N312RC
Posts: 2584
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2000 10:58 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:06 am

Sorry. I wouldnt take an ugly Renault over a BMW.. nope.
N/A
 
wn700driver
Posts: 1475
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 10:55 pm

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:14 am

If you want to run numbers in terms of everything from build quality to performance & have your criteria for best car be based just on facts, the best car out there that I've yet seen is the Infinity G35 (they have these in America. Does anyone know what it is marketed as in Europe & the UK --haven't been home in a while--). If however, fuel econ & aquistion price are not a concern to you, than that title goes to BMW's M5. That automobile is truly the best car ever, if such a thing can be said to exist, bar none.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
GD727
Posts: 899
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2002 7:33 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:16 am

I'm sorry for you dears, but the Magazine AUTO PLUS who tested OBJECTIVELY French, Italian, German and Japanese cars (the 4 better countries) The four BETTER countries?! Hahahahaha! American cars are FAR superior to ANY of these countries' carmakers!

AMERICAN CARS RULE!!!!!  Big thumbs up

-GD727
Mmmm forbidden donut.
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

N312RC

Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:21 am

Was it this one the ugly Renault ?









 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

GD727

Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:22 am

You're right, American cars rules the economy of oil companies. They are far from the best.
 
Guest

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:24 am

GD727,

They already have like 3 forums for American cars. I think this one will be filled with import junkies. By the Way, I've seen a lot of your posts. I am curious, what do you drive?

~~Lori
 
GD727
Posts: 899
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2002 7:33 am

RE:Sebolino

Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:26 am

Oh right. American cars suck because they don't get excellant gas mileage. Did it ever occur to you that a car does not have to have good gas mileage to be a good car?

-GD727
Mmmm forbidden donut.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 2:19 am

It isn't very often that I agree with N312RC & GD727 but I just can't imagine a French car coming ahead of Britain, Germany and the U.S.

I still will say the United States makes the best cars & trucks. I think the French DO make some interesting designs and I would gladly buy one over a German car. I am really sick of German cars and there owners. Extreme arrogance and just plain stupid drivers at least here in San Francisco drive those things. I see nothing special or anything that stands out on the bmw & mercedes. especially the newer ones . They (drivers) run the most red lights and drive down the wrong way on a one-way street. It's funny watching how they still cop an attitude when they are busted by the police or have their cars towed for parking in a 'no parking zone'. I swear, they must think the world revolves around them and are exempt from the laws that everyone else has to follow.
At least the British cars evoq some class & prestige with there attention to detail designs. I'll take a Jaguar over a bmw/mercedes in a second!

I am a big fan of diesel-powered engines and I think more cars should come with available diesel engines. I think it should be the only engine available for SUVs.




These Citroën SM looks neat and makes a stronger statement than some cliche bmw.

Bring back the Concorde
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 2:22 am

What objective measures do you have that would support the argument that American cars are far superior, other than personal opinion or quarter mile times, or the fact that you claim to have smoked many "rice" cars? Because from objective measures, at least here in North America, the best cars are predominantly Japanese cars, due to their recorded reliability, and how they combine size, features, price, etc all into one package.

For some people, American cars are better suited, for me German cars satisfy me more, but for most, the Japanese trully provide the most logical choices here in North America, and it might very well be that in Europe, the best designed cars for their purposes are French cars.

Sobelino, that Renault isn't too bad (is that the Megane?), but try the Avantissimo. What a nasty thing that is!
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 2:57 am

Superfly, why are you showing a 30 years old French car ? In case you don't know, they have changed since that time.


CaptainGomes, the car you're talking about is the Avantime. It's ugly indeed. I don't like especially Renault cars, I prefer Peugeot and also VW.

Have a look at this:










 

 




 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

CaptainGomes

Thu Jul 25, 2002 2:59 am

That is the Laguna 2.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 3:08 am

Sebolino:
I like those 30 year old cars.  Smile
Those new pictures you posted were nice too.

I am sure French cars are better than Russian/Soviet cars.
Bring back the Concorde
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 3:11 am

"I am sure French cars are better than Russian/Soviet cars"

I was close to pour my coffee on my knees when I read that.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:57 pm

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 3:11 am

Sebolino....

"It isn't very often that I agree with N312RC & GD727 but I just can't imagine a French car coming ahead of Britain, Germany and the U.S."

I agree with the 3 of you and its not often that I agree with Jason on cars......

It makes me laugh that a Peugot, Renault and Citroen make better cars than BMW, Mercedes and Audi........
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 3:14 am

Depends on what you call better.
The journalists that rated the cars are professionals.

Mercedes won the category "road cars" (big cars).
If you don't see small cars, Monospace, compact cars as cars, then of course you can't understand the test.
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 3:27 am

Oh no !! My mistake. Renault won the category.

Here are the results, I let you judge:

- City cars (small cars) : France with the Renault Clio (121 pts), the Ford fiesta has 120 points
- Compact cars (medium cars) : France with the Peugeot 307.
- Compact monospaces (untranslatable) : Japan with the Toyota Corolla Verso.
- Family cars : Germany (!!) with the Ford Mondeo (Ford is seen as German in Europe).
- Road cars : France with the Renault Vel Satis 3,5 l 245 HP (126 pts). The Mercedes E320 is second with 124 points. Its main problem is the price (52000 Euros vs 47000).
- Monospaces : France with the Peugeot 807.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 3:30 am

I am sure the build quality of the German cars are better, they just look so ordinary.
At least the French cars stand out like a sore thumb in some cases , now if the French can get them to run without problems then there may be some competition.

French cars are just a little better than Russian cars.
Bring back the Concorde
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 3:34 am

You're right Superfly on 1 point:

The German cars are better for the details quality and overall quality. But they are too expensive (German salaries).

The second point is .... hmmm .... arguable.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 3:41 am

Sebolino:
I was giving credit to the British for 'detail'.
The German cars are build well but are just waaaaaaaaaaay over-priced and don't look all that impressive.

For European cars, look at the Jaguar Vanden Plas.
Now that is pure elegance and power.  Smokin cool
Bring back the Concorde
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 3:48 am

Jaguar makes beautiful cars, that's true. Unfortunately, you don't have many occasions to drive it, as it is always at the repair shop or whatever you call a 'garage'. (that's true).
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 4:46 am

It's one of the quality of German cars. They don't scream out at people and yell "hey look at me!" Unfortunately, some of the owners of those cars, especially the BMW 3 series do that themselves. Too bad, because the car is exceptional.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Staffan
Posts: 3879
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:21 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 10:19 am

So what is best? best value? best quality? best price? best reliability? best looks?

The newer French cars have proven to be great value for the money. They aren't as good engineered as their german counterparts, but they also cost far from the same.
 
lubcha132
Posts: 2642
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2001 10:37 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 10:25 am

peugeots are nice, and damn i love those old Citroens. Renault- some cars are ok.
 
SophieMaltese
Posts: 2023
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:08 pm

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 12:11 pm

I don't even know which French cars are available here. Also, a lot of cars may be reliable in France but not here because nobody knows how to service them. I remember hearing that Saabs were very reliable in Sweden but here they can be total crap. I like the Peugot up there, I've never even seen one before here though.
 
KFRG
Posts: 353
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2002 10:37 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:16 pm

Yeah, Sebolino, explain to me why Peugeot pulled out of America in 1992? Yeah, superior my ass. Although, I have to give the Peugeot 206 credit in being a cute girls car.

-Tommy
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 7982
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:31 pm

Sebolino,

I think the French term monospace translates to what we call a van.

The best definition of the small monospace vehicle is the Renault Megané Scenic and the larger monospace vehicle is the Peugeot 807 van. The Honda Stream would probably qualify in the small monospace category.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 2:09 pm

I drive daily the Citroën DS (Superfly´s 2nd pic) and its nice. PSA (Peugeot-Citroën) is the 2nd car manufacturer (VW group biggest) in europe and 9th biggest globally (if I remember right?). PSA have currently the cleanest diesel
engines around the globe used in the Peugeot 607 and Citroën still makes cars with hydraulic suspension, currently Citroën C5
which you can rise and sink depending on the road. The reason Peugeot-Citroën no longer export cars to North America is that so few buy them (some people still love them check out www.carsurvey.org and look for US peugeot owners).
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Notar520AC
Posts: 1517
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2001 6:53 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 2:42 pm

It's also very interesting to look at the American Consumer Reports- very interesting...

If I was buying a car my largest issue would be- is it going to hold together for another 10 years? Looks come after. My family replaced our old Buick with a 2000 Honda Oddessy Minivan, although it really isn't "mini," because it's the largest "mini" van on the market. We've had it two years now, and have already logged about 54,000 miles on it, w/o any problems. We had a small issue with the thing that holds the engine in place- it had a few cracks in it, but that was probably only from my mom hitting speed bumps to hard, or flooring the gas- she thinks it's a Corvette.  Nuts

It's a great car for our needs. If our destination is within the region, we usually drive instead of fly, so we can take all the "necesities" with. The van seats 7 extremely comfortably, with plenty of leg-room, and the backseat actually folds INTO the floor for easy loading of large cargo, etc., and the pax bucket seats and the forward passenger (the one to the right of the driver) seat can all be detatched and folded in half for even more room. We get pretty good gas mileage too- over 16 in town, and over 20 per gallon on the free-way.

Looks like I got carried away- back to French cars. Big grin And don't forget- CONSUMER REPORTS!!!
BMW - The Ultimate Driving Machine
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 4:35 pm

Peugeot is now the 6th manufacturer I think.
Why they don't sell in the US ? Simple: bad reputation and I guess a bit of anti-French sentiment. It will probably change in the near/middle future.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 5:20 pm

Thats the same reason US cars sales slump in many parts of the world, bad reputation (high prize, poor quality, expensive parts and high fuel consumption) and anti-US sentiment.
PSA is perhaps the 6th biggest, GM, Ford, Toyota, VW (and who else?) are bigger in number of cars.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Thu Jul 25, 2002 5:26 pm

The reason why American cars are even not available in Europe is mainly their size and their fuel consumption.
How can you own a 5+ meters car in Europe ? There's no place to park.
 
KFRG
Posts: 353
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2002 10:37 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Fri Jul 26, 2002 12:13 am

Seblolino, BS, the Explorer, Jeep Cherokee, Voayager/Caravan, are all available as regular build models in Europe. I have even seen a Chevy Z73 Pickup and a Chevy Tahoe/Denali too.

-Tommy
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Fri Jul 26, 2002 12:30 am

You can't really do a test or a review of a car, it's too much personal preference. French cars have improved over the last years, but they still have no chance against a German car. Very often little details decide if a car is a winner or not. And German cars just appear as the best "package" to me, and for me the way it feels to drive a car is very important. And in that category, German cars are superior to anything else imho.

About the looks: In Germany, that is called "Understatement". The cars don't have to look like super-sportscars or like in a Science Fiction movie, they can look cool without "screaming" (I like that word Captaingomes) at you.

About the price: Quality costs, sorry. Better invest a little bit more money when buying a car instead of having to buy a new one 3 years earlier.

And German cars have a high resell-value, they don't lose worth as fast as others. The Top 10 of the least-worth-losing cars is completly filled with German cars! For example, a Mercedes SLK 200 has only lost 15% of it's worth after 2 years. At the opposite, there is only 1 German car in the Top 10 of the most-worth-losing cars - and that's the old BMW 7 because a new model was introduced recently.
 
airsicknessbag
Posts: 4626
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2000 2:45 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Fri Jul 26, 2002 12:33 am

Aaah, the Goddess...  Love  Love  Love

French cars were always stylish and very avantgarde - you´re going to love them or hate them, it´s pretty much impossible to be indifferent towards a French car.

Daniel Smile
 
EGGD
Posts: 11880
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:01 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Fri Jul 26, 2002 12:38 am

For flare I'd say Italy, and for Excellent all round ... just great cars i'd say Germany.

What the fcuk? some sort of biased test saying that French cars are best, and thats BS!!! Especially the pictures you posted, ugly ugly ugly  Acting devilish
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Fri Jul 26, 2002 12:44 am

That about Italian cars. Their sports cars look great, but they have a horribly unreliable.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Fri Jul 26, 2002 3:32 am

German cars had their fair share of problems here in Sweden, first the VW Passat had brakes that didn´t work good in damp, slushy,snowy weather
and the rear window broke because of faulty design. Mercedes had huge problems with their A-klasse and reacted with anger when people pointed them out. Many German cars are made of the same parts as French and Italian cars and companies like BMW make many engines in the UK, so
to say Germans make really good cars and French, Italian and UK don´t isn´t true. Personally I don´t like the look of BMW and their RWD image, very unpractical in my point of view....
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:42 am

And the winners are ......
































 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:54 am

Racko:
That last car you posted reminded me of the AMC Pacer (1975-1980). Big grin

Bring back the Concorde
 
Skystar
Posts: 1339
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2000 3:58 pm

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Fri Jul 26, 2002 9:01 am

I don't know whether I'd say France makes the best cars, but they do make very good value cars. They have probably been the only country to most consistently develop the best suspension in the world in standard, affordable cars. Engine wise, they haven't been much to write home about, but they are certainly improving in this area (Renault has some excellent petrol engines now, and PSA (Peugeot & Citroen) have one of the best diesel engines with the HDi. Quality wise, they're improving - especially at Renault. Peugeot is improving with the 307 (607 feels great), but it doesn't yet have the same feel of a upper Euro car like a Benz or Volvo. They do have their flaws, but they are becoming less wierd  Smile

They also design some interesting cars. It used to be that Citroen was the manufacturer of the weird & wonderful, now Renault seems to want to take that tag.








The interior looks good though, but the exterior will have to grow on me. Love it or hate it, they're doing something else different.

Cheers,

Justin
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Fri Jul 26, 2002 9:55 am

Skystar, is that thing for real ? Does Renault really sell such an ugly car ? The back looks like they merged two totally different cars ...

About interiors : Nothing beats the new Mercedes E-Class.



Closely followed by the BMW 7 with the great I-Drive





 
lubcha132
Posts: 2642
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2001 10:37 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Fri Jul 26, 2002 10:04 am

egads! its worse than the back of the new BMW 7 series!


the new 7 isn't that bad except for the back. it looks like they forgot about it until the end of design.

and i like the old meganes more.
 
Skystar
Posts: 1339
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2000 3:58 pm

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Fri Jul 26, 2002 11:42 am

The 7 series is just hopeless, nothing breathtaking, just in my opinion, poorly proportioned, fat, overweight looking walrus like styling  Smile

The Megane is also crazy, but it's probably better looking than the 7 Series (that really says something). It just doesn't have the badge, which is as good enough an excuse for most people to get the 7, hahah. It looks more innovative than the 7 series. The problem with the 7 is that it's not sure whether it wants to look futuristic or conservative, rather it's a dog's breakfast. Just loke the AU Ford Falcon - couldn't decide whether it was going to be conservative or modern. Half way between, just looks confused, and it's been a disaster for Ford Australia. Had they tried to make it look modern, ala Focus or Mondeo, they'd've done much better!

And the i-drive. Why bother? It's so hard to use, that BMW Australia has had to run training courses for hotel and parking operators, because noone can figure out how to work that thing! Sometimes, you wonder whether they've just put in technology, for technology's sake.

I think the S-Class, inside & out, looks far better than the 7 series. At least it has class.

And yeah, that is the new Renault Megane II. It's very real.

Cheers,

Justin
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Fri Jul 26, 2002 12:04 pm

I'll give the French some credit for making there cars look different.
If I was in Europe I would get one just for the novelty of driveing a European car I couldn't get here in the states.


Skystar:
Those look like fun cars to go out in on Halloween!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy  Laugh out loud


Bring back the Concorde
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Fri Jul 26, 2002 12:09 pm

I-Drive is definitely not wonderful. Now instead of having a function operated by a button, you have to work your way down a menu down a computer screen. Is that progress??? Why all this technocrap is being put into the "best" cars these days is beyond me. If people want all that stuff in their cars, put it in the back seat and get a chauffer. Otherwise, you're driving, so concentrate on what you're supposed to be doing! And that, from the ultimate driving machine? I think it's more like the ultimate interfacing machine. I love BMW's for the way they drive, but if this is what they are going after, I know I wont be one of their customers if I'm ever in the proper income bracket.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Best Cars : Facts

Fri Jul 26, 2002 4:19 pm

If you speak in "absolute" quality, of course French cars are not the best. You'll always find a Mercedes or an Audi which is better.
But one of the criteria was the price (for 25 % of the grade). That's why (but not only) German cars were not considered as better.

It sounds fair to me: the price is very important for me, as well as the reliability.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Kiwirob and 32 guests