ryanb741
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Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Mon Aug 19, 2002 5:45 pm

It seems that a deal has been brokered by the Israelis and Palestinians which will result in Israel removing its troops from the West Bank and other Palestinian territories.

Already Hamas has threatened the peace, saying that the Israeli withdrawal is 'nothing more than an attempt to disrupt the legitimate Palestinian Intifada'. It has warned that it will continue attacks on Israelis. Israel has urged Arafat and co to rein in these activists.

When the inevitable happens, and the Israelis are attacked by a suicide bomber, Israel must do what it did during the Gulf War when attacked by Saddam, and not retaliate. It must do this for at least 3 months, giving the Arafat time to try and control the activists. If after the 3 month period the attacks are continuing and it seems Arafat is doing little to deter them, then Israel has full moral right to reoccupy those areas in order to safeguard its own safety. The main difference from the present is that currently Israel does not seem to be holding the moral high ground, as its presence in Palestine is viewed as unlawful occupation. However, by waiting and putting the ball firmly in the Palestinians court, Israel has an excellent opportunity to determine whether peace really is possible, or if it needs to take out Hamas and co once and for all.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Mon Aug 19, 2002 7:43 pm

Ryanb741: I would tend to agree. Though it is a bashing of Israeli ego, I think they will think it's worth the wait.

On a related matter, why don't Israel just build walls round their land? Palestinians shouldn't go into Israeli land, and Israelis dont want to go into Palestinaian land. This would be much more useful than having guards placed everywhere, which has quite fankly seemed to have failed.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
galaxy5
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Mon Aug 19, 2002 8:33 pm

soo, how many people should they wait to be killed until "they hold the higher moral ground". When Hamas decides to start killing innocent civilians again how much do you think you would take until you do something about it?
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
ryanb741
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Mon Aug 19, 2002 8:40 pm

You miss the point. Hamas kill these people because they view it as a legitimate struggle against Israeli occupation. So if Israel removes the reasons for Hamas' grievances (i.e. the occupation and brutalisation of Palestinian territory), and then Hamas continue their attacks, then the Israelis could then say that Hamas is purely a terrorist organisation and not the freedom-fighters that Hamas claims they are. At the moment the Palestinians have the moral high ground (to a degree) because they are fighting occupation. I say remove their reason to fight, and see what they are really made of.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
galaxy5
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Mon Aug 19, 2002 8:44 pm

I get your point but, how much is too much. You cant expect them to wait three months no matter what. What if the start killing civilians with suicide bombing at say 1 or more a day. How many people do you think could be killed in 3 months. I'm saying don't place a specific time limit on it.
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
777236ER
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Mon Aug 19, 2002 8:51 pm

So what do you want to do, Galaxy5? The policy of retaliation DOES NOT WORK! You retaliate, they retaliate, you retaliate, they retaliate.....at least this way has SOME hope of a peaceful outcome.

However, you can't expect Israel to sit back and do nothing if its civilians are being killed. It's quite within their right to retaliate, AS LONG as it's legal and doesn't affect civilians significantly. Hopefully Israel withdrawing from Palestinian towns (completly) could be the sign of a new wave of talks and hopefully something positive.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
go canada!
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Mon Aug 19, 2002 8:59 pm

ryan you raise good points, however, this has happened in the past and the terror didnt stop. Israel has withdraw from the palestinain lands and the attacks continued. The pro-palestinian camp has never been able to justify why the terror attacks continued even though israel did what it was asked and withdrew, its been here before. Its offered peace deals, its withdrawn but the terror continued. the attacks happened before the occupation in 1967, they happened after wards, they happened before the peace process, during it and afterwards(though we are now told that they are only bombing and maiming because there is no peace deal!) and when a peace plan presents itself in any shape or form, the terrorists step up their attacks and its a shame that some people cant grasp the fact that no matter what happens hamas and its friends wont stop. The only way to end terror is to fight them and destroy them.

Its now upto Yasser Arafat to clamp down on the terrorists, we are told often that arafat would if israel didnt occupy palestinian land. Now its withdrawing in some quarters and is also giving the palestinians the next installment of their tax dollars, arafat has a chance to act. The peace process now rests on the PA, if they fail to act then the world will see again that israel has a legitimate right to go into palestinian areas and smash these groups. the problem is that it will be clear to you me and many others but the pro-palestinians will still bleat on and moan and find a way to justify and excuse the terror campaigns.

Regarding the moral high ground, israel cant win. Before the 6 day war, the wolrd was aghast that the arabs were about to attack israel again, everyone feared for israel. Israel launched a strike first, defeated 4 armies in 6 days and then was accussed of being a bully. the israelis are so sick and tired of being killed, they are so sick and tired of these groups trying to destroy them that they no longer care about world opinion. World opinion doesnt have its survival at stake and many now have an attitude that the UN etc can go hang themselves.

As we can see from part of the BBC report, the palestinian militants have no intention of ending the violence which they started.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2201814.stm

"Israel has reached agreement with the Palestinians to begin reducing its military presence in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank town of Bethlehem in exchange for Palestinian efforts to reduce militant attacks.

But the deal was thrown into doubt almost as soon as it was made, with Palestinian militant groups saying they would not halt their attacks on Israel.

Palestinian officials said the two sides had agreed that Israel would withdraw its forces from Gaza and Bethlehem within 48 hours.

But Israeli officials indicated much a looser schedule to allow the Palestinian agencies the opportunity to calm the situation and quell anti-Israeli violence.

Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesperson Yafa Ben Ari told the BBC: "At the moment we have a high level of warnings of future terror activity and that level of warning must cease."

BBC correspondent James Reynolds in Jerusalem says this deal is very much seen as a first step.

A similar agreement was reached earlier in August but it came to nothing.

Palestinian opposition

The militant Palestinian group Hamas has said it would not support the plan.

"Hamas and the Palestinian people reject any agreement which aims at destroying our resistance and ending the intifada, which is what this agreement is aimed at," a spokesman told the AFP news agency.

"Israel... would do everything in order to ease conditions on the Palestinian population; the Palestinian side takes responsibility to calm the security situation and reduce violence" Israeli Defence Ministry

And Islamic Jihad, another militant organisation, said it would step up attacks on militant targets.

"The Palestinian people's answer will be to escalate the resistance to foil [Israeli Defence Minister Binyamin] Ben-Eliezer's plan," said Khalid al-Batsh, a Gaza Strip leader for the group.

"We in Islamic Jihad reject this agreement because it will consecrate the Israeli occupation of our land," he told AFP.

The BBC's Barbara Plett says that the leftist Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) has also rejected the agreement and that strong reservations have been expressed within Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement.

The armed wing of Fatah, the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, has also warned the Palestinian leadership against endorsing the deal.

'Confidence-building'

The agreement to ease the military clampdown was reached by Mr Ben-Eliezer with Palestinian Interior Minister Abdel Razaq al-Yahya.

Mr Ben-Eliezer said the deal was a "confidence-building measure", essential to future progress.

A senior Palestinian official, Nabil Abu Rudeina, said the withdrawals would "prepare the atmosphere" for more pullbacks.

It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
avi
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Mon Aug 19, 2002 9:32 pm

Ryanb741,

You say that Israel should wait 3 months before it retaliate any attack (and I promise you there will be).
I say that Israel already waited 7 (yes, seven) years.
The first agreement with the PA was signed in 1993. Then Israel started to withdraw from the GZ and WB. All that time Israel was suffering from Hamas suicide bombers and in fact more than 400 Israelis were killed between 1993 and September 2000 (when the Intifada started) without any Israeli retaliation (people tend to forget that number).

From Hamas point of view even Tel-Aviv is an occupied territory and if no one does anything to stop them, they won’t stop.

The PA must stop the terror first of anything else and to start acting against Hamas (and the rest of the terror groups). This is the only way they can get anyhing from Israel.
It isn’t Israel on test here, it is the PA.


Long live the B747
 
go canada!
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Mon Aug 19, 2002 9:34 pm

avi is correct to state its upto the PA now, there can be no excuses, israels doing what the PA wanted, its also releasing much needs funds to the palestinians, if they dont clamp down on terror then israel will be back.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
LY744
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Mon Aug 19, 2002 11:20 pm

I agree with Ryan on this one, but I have to say that realistically, this is probably not going to work out, especially not with Israel's current leadership (not to mention the Palestinians). Since many Palestinian radicals (as well as key leaders) admit that their true goal is to establish control over all of Israel, they will easily find an excuse to continue their attacks not matter what, while still being portrayed as "freedom fighters". That is also the reason why the wall thing Singapore_Air mentioned is not going to work (politically anyways). Another reason is that the two countries depend on each other, whether they like to admit it or not, so total separation is never going to be practical.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Guest

RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Tue Aug 20, 2002 12:00 am

Gee ryan,

Your proposal sounds suspiciously similar to one stated by a certain WN700Driver, (as in the one who is usually associated with THI)... last week.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/268893/

I certainly agree that it is a good idea, but it looks a lot as if you are trying to credit yourself with someone else's idea. I know this is the internet & all & what we say doesn't count for much, but please do cite your sources.  Big grin Anyways, here's what it said for the record....


"oh wait for it alpha one, any minute someone will accuse you of starting a flame war...i agree with most of your points except ariel sharon, not because i think the mans a hero but i prefer him to ben net, if ben net was elected i dont think peace would move forward."


Canada, I know old Bibi wasn't the best for peace in the region, but surely he cannot be worse than Sharon. Sharon is basically what Saddam would be if he had a United States on his side. Also, there were far less suicide attacks from the Palastinians & less attacks into the WB by the IDF under Netinyahu(sp) as well. Like I said, not the best, but better than te current offerings...

As for indulging Palastine. I say do it for three months. During this time, it doesn't matter what the PA says or does to Isreal. No attacks into the WB or Gaza, PA gets full statehood & all Arab and/or Palastinians living in Isreal propper get full citizenship & are NOT subject to profiling whatsoever. Add to this whatever other benefits any citizen of a soverign nation gets & that's what they get.

If in these first three months the PA does not stop with the bombings & grow the f*ck up allready, than I say Isreal does what it wants to them. With the caveat that whatever they do WILL settle the issue once & for all. Whatever their gov't has done to Palastine, I do agree that Isreali citizens really ddon't deserve to get bombed every other day.

Anyways, don't get me wrong, I haven't had that much of a change of heart; I still sympathise greatly with the Palastinian people. But lately, the PA is starting to remind me of that ornery old uncle that every family has. You know the one I am talking about. Lives in your basement, borrows money all the damned time, runs up huuuuuuuuuge utilities, smokes weed, & then has the nerve to talk shit about you to all his friends, whom he is also borrowing a lot of money from. I am sick of it. There is real potential for Palastine, but they are being robbed blind by these drama-queens.

Cheers & peace to all.
 
ryanb741
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Tue Aug 20, 2002 12:12 am

Well, forgive me for not reading every single post before posting my observations  Big grin. Anyway, the deal was brokered only today - that's what led me to write it. What is your point???!!!???
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Tue Aug 20, 2002 12:15 am

Damn, I have to go to work, I mean, right now, but when I get back, boy, are there a few things to say to this!  Smile
 
Guest

RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Tue Aug 20, 2002 12:39 am

Memory seems to be SOOOOO short...


"If after the 3 month period the attacks are continuing and it seems Arafat is doing little to deter them, then Israel has full moral right to reoccupy those areas in order to safeguard its own safety. The main difference from the present is that currently Israel does not seem to be holding the moral high ground, as its presence in Palestine is viewed as unlawful occupation."



Do you have the SLIGHTEST idea WHY the Israeli Army is in the territories?

Do you REMEMBER how many horrific suicide bombings took place months BEFORE the military actions began? The Dolphinarium disco on the Tel Aviv sea front, does it say something to you? Or the Sbarro restaurant in downtown Jerusalem? Or the so many busses which were blown up, full of passengers of course? Or the Netanya Park hotel? Or the pedestrian mall in Jerusalem? All these terrible terrorist attacks were NOT "enough" to allow a military intervention???
After the Dolphinarium tragedy, in which more than 20 teenagers were assassinated, the Gvt had (FINALLY) decided to act; but the German Foreign minister Joshka Fisher gave Arafat "the last chance" to prove he is "fighting terror"...Arafat had already been given this "last chance" a thousand times before this horrendous June 1st 2001, and another thousand times since then. But what are you suggesting, RyanB? That, in order for Israel to have the "moral high ground" and to safeguard its own safety, there's a minimal number of 1000 Israelis who have to be killed? Or 10000? Or how many...?



* * * *


So if Israel removes the reasons for Hamas' grievances (i.e. the occupation and brutalisation of Palestinian territory), and then Hamas continue their attacks, then the Israelis could then say that Hamas is purely a terrorist organisation and not the freedom-fighters that Hamas claims they are.

How interesting...ONLY THEN will these bastards appear to be terrorists in your eyes...

And BTW, Hamas' "grievances", as you say, are totally unconnected to the 1967 border dispute...and you know this as well as me; why this hypocrisy? why? I just wonder...
 
Guest

RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Tue Aug 20, 2002 12:43 am

Israel might have been waiting 7 years ... but the Palestinians have been waiting 54 years.

The reality is that both sides are equally to blame here. Both sides have equally valid claims to territory ... but unfortunately hardliners in both camps refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the other's claim.

Until that happens, there will be no peace in the region.
 
ryanb741
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Tue Aug 20, 2002 12:57 am

Toda - you misunderstand.

Those terrorist killings are despicable, but are linked to the fact that the Palestinians have a genuine grievance (israeli occupation). Now, if the Israelis withdraw completely and then the attacks STILL continue - it will have proved to the World that Hamas etc were never fighting a war for 'freedom' - they are just out-and-out terrorists. So rather than terrorist attacks being 'retaliation' for Israeli occupation, they would simply be hate crimes. In this context, Israel could do what it wanted to the Hamas etc and would be entirely on a moral high ground. Currently, we have a situation where Hamas attacks because of Israeli occupation, Israel attacks in retaliation, Hamas attacks because of Israeli occupation, Israel attacks in retaliation and so on. I say, break the loop and see what happens. If the attacks continue, well at least israel genuinely tried for peace and was let down by the Palestinians, and can sort the problem out properly with less international condemnation (apart form the radical Islamists who will never recognise Israel no matter what).


Regards

Ryan
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
us330
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Tue Aug 20, 2002 1:25 am

Ryanb741, while I agree with your points, I must ask this inevitable question: what about the Palestinians who still feel that they have a genuine grievance just because they feel that the Israelis exist in the first place?
 
ryanb741
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Tue Aug 20, 2002 1:39 am

Well, those are the ones which Israel will be able to deal with legitimately, as they will have been able to demonstrate that those people simply aren't interested in peace.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
wn700driver
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Tue Aug 20, 2002 1:48 am

SilverA

Thanx for you post, nice to be noticed.

Ryan,

For what it's worth, I know her (SilverAngel), in person well enough that I don't think it was a flame. But I do have to admit that what you said does bear a stricking resemblance to what I said. Anyways, it is a good idea, (hehehehe, I better think so after that, eh?), but I have been dreadfully out of the loop for the last few days. What are the deatails of this latest agreement?
Also, I should add a few things to what I said before. I think in order for peace to have a real chance there, they will have to remove Sharon & install a more reasonable leader, & as well, the US will need to start investing in the prosperity of the WB & Gaza the same way it did for Isreal. It is a truth that a successfull nation rarely starts fights it does not need to (look at Singapore, Emirates, Qatar, Brunei, Monanco, etc...) I believe this is possible for Palastine as well. In return for co-operation, Isreal will have no interferrance from the USa or EU in it's dealings with HAMAS & others if & only if they have held up their end of the deal for the first three months AND make it clear that they will continue to do so in perpetuity so long as there are no further attacks therafter. At that point, HAMAS & the PA really do have no excuses to continue their intifada.

Us330,

I think the answer to that is somewhat obvious. After such an agreement were to occur, theoretically those who would continue the "struggle" on the side of Palastine would quite literally be more damaging than to their people than the IDF ever could be, and would need to be dealt with & removed from the situation by any means neccessary. Where it gets sticky is what do about things like peacful protests (which there will certainly be...even something as resonable as this will be seen as an atrocity by the haters on both sides), & riots. I would not like to see all this progress get thrown away bc some IDF commander sees an inflamitory slogan & reacts to personally, or because some Palastinian kid starts throwing stones at a tank. This does need to be a strong enough agreement to ensure that one little incident won't let all hell break loose. Anyways, yeah I am long winded, so I will stop now,  Smile

Cheers
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
LY744
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Tue Aug 20, 2002 2:02 am

"Gee ryan,

Your proposal sounds suspiciously similar to one stated by a certain WN700Driver, (as in the one who is usually associated with THI)... last week"


Similar ideas have been expressed by numerous members on many occasions for a very long time (and countless other people throughout the world), "credit" would be impossible to determine as we would have to look years back.

"Israel might have been waiting 7 years ... but the Palestinians have been waiting 54 years"

One could argue that both sides have been waiting for centuries... As we've successfully proven, all sides can whine about how miserable they are, so don't go there.  Big grin

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
heavymetal
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Tue Aug 20, 2002 2:20 am

Thomas Friedman had a great column in yesterday's NY Times....it offered the suggestion that the Palestinians are realizing they are getting precisely squat from the latest uprising. A little chatter here & there, some righteous pontifications from certain quarters...bout it though. No grand and glorious Muslim army coming across the horizon to free them. No blessings of nobility from practically anywhere. Just a lot of people saying "if you weren't happy with the proposals on the table, what do you have now?" Over 2,000 dead, simmering contempt from the one party that wanted to see you get most of your demands met...and a decrepit old leader who, as Friedman brilliantly put it, doesn't care if he steers the Palestinians into a ditch, as long as he gets to drive.

Pity too. Ariel Sharon is one of the more detestable world leaders.... peace marches and violence free disobedience after the brutal videotaped murder of the cowering 12 year old would have brought Israel to their public relations knees. Instead the Arabs once again thought with their balls, not their brains. And they're once again as far away from their aspirations as ever.
 
Guest

RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Wed Aug 21, 2002 12:13 am

I would not like to see all this progress get thrown away bc some IDF commander sees an inflamitory slogan & reacts to personally, or because some Palastinian kid starts throwing stones at a tank. This does need to be a strong enough agreement to ensure that one little incident won't let all hell break loose.


- "throwing stones at a tank"...is not the reason why the "progress got thrown away"...Hundreds of Israeli citizens have been murdered and thousands hurt in horrific bombings allover their country, in busses and in restaurants, in synagogues and in dicotheques, in cafés and at university, in the street and in their private cars. THIS is the reason why there is no more "peace process"; these murderous actions were often organized just after "negotiations" had started again.
But of course, these are just "little incidents".

I guess these tragedies are mere "little incidents" as long as they occur in Israel and claim Israeli victims.



* * * * *



Ryan, I very well understood your point, but I just don't agree. I have a friend here in GVA who is studying international law and has the same kind of theories... which make me mad (we had a few weeks ago a huuuuge discussion which ended at 4 am...).

Your reasoning is biased from the start, because you willingly ignore an essential element : in your words (and in your opinion I guess and hope), the notion of "occupation" refers to the post-1967 territories only, i.e the WB and GS. BUT, for the Hamas it is absolutely not the case; they don't make ANY difference between these territories and what most people call "Israel proper", i.e the territory of Israel in its internationnally recognized limits (1949-1967). When Hamas speaks of the "end of the occupation", it refers to the whole territory between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean sea; it just means "the end of the Zionist entity". The PLO has "changed" its position, but Hamas is not even trying to hide its objectives...!

"it will have proved to the World that Hamas etc were never fighting a war for 'freedom' - they are just out-and-out terrorists."

The most fundamentalist extremist terrorists are fighting a "war for FREEDOM"...I think you must have some kind of blindness to be able to write something like that...

BTW, blowing up defenseless civilians in busses, restaurants or discos doesn't fit the definition of WAR, Ryan...And to see that these barbarians are "just out-and-out terrorists"...you should just try to open your eyes - when you see on the TV the mutilated bodies of young women or teens, do you really feel the need of yet another kind of "proof"?

 
go canada!
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Wed Aug 21, 2002 12:26 am

SAS23, its nice to welcome you to a more liberal understanidng of the issues, it would be nice if you supported this motion though.

Do you not agree that the events show that no matter what happens, the terrorists will not stop?

do you not agree that this is a chance for the P.A to clamp down on the terrorists?

Do you not agree that there can be no excuses from the P.A if suicide bombers appear from regions which they control?

Do you not welcome the realse of palestinian tax dollars as well as talks on humanitarian issues between israel and the P.A?

Heavy metal has made some good points. The palestinians have got nothing from these two last years except hurt, pain and misery, they still dont have their palestinian state. Its about time they realised that they wouldnt be in this mess if it wasnt for arafat and his weak leadership. they could have had a state, they could have had aid, they could have had further discussions to iron some points out but instead they got ariel sharon, a hardline israel and an occupation.

It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
wn700driver
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Wed Aug 21, 2002 12:57 am

Toda, either you don't have a firm grasp on the english language, or you are simply as determined as HAMAS or Jihad is to make sure that something like this never happens.

I would not like to see all this progress get thrown away bc some IDF commander sees an inflamitory slogan & reacts too personally, or because some Palastinian kid starts throwing stones at a tank. This does need to be a strong enough agreement to ensure that one little incident won't let all hell break loose.


I guess these tragedies are mere "little incidents" as long as they occur in Israel and claim Israeli victims.


Even in that excerpt, which you clearly tried to take out of context, what I said clearly implies that there would be palastinian casualties to consider as well. My point was that this needs to be given a REAL chance to work, not just token bs that we are used to.
Also, you may want to consider reading someone's entire post before you decide what you are reading. Anyone else here can tell you that what you imply is exactly what I did not say. I'll thank you to stop your flame-baiting now & grow up.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
JetService
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Wed Aug 21, 2002 3:39 am

Of the three groups involved (1. Israelis, 2. Palestinians, 3. Terrorist groups like Hamas, etc.), you all seem to talk a lot about the first two, but ignore the third. How can group 1 and group 2 ever make peace with group 3 in the picture? That is the group that is against any normalized relationship between Israel and Arabs. That is the group that claims to want to eliminate Israel 'from the river to the sea'. THEY are the reason peace is impossible. THEY are what needs eliminated before peace can ever be considered. You really want peace here? I'm mean do you REEEEALLY want peace? Then before ANY debate of negotiations on land or authority or anything like that take place, we should be talking about how that group is going to be stopped and who should stop them. Taking about ANYTHING other than that right now is futile and a COMPLETE waist of time. Maybe we disagree on how much land and authority Palestine or Israel ends up with in a treaty, but NONE of us should disagree that group 3 needs taken out before that can be realized. So let's STOP bitching about land and start talking over how this #3 is to be stopped. Should Israel do it with military force? No? OK, then who and how. Tell us. Palestine? OK, fine, then start demanding they do it. When that's done, then let's talk about peace and who gets what. Think how much easier it will be.
"Shaddap you!"
 
jwenting
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Wed Aug 21, 2002 3:49 am

The PLO (and whatever name they've thought up now for the "independent" terrorist cells) will never stop as long as Israel exists.
For them the goal is not the status quo they officially agreed upon in 1993 (and immediately violated) but the annihilation of Israel and the establishment of a Muslim state in what is now Israel and the Lebanon.
Once that has been achieved, other countries will face the same thing, but this time with the might of a regular army at the side of the agressor. Jordan will probably be first, but Syria won't be far behind.
I wish I were flying
 
Guest

RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Wed Aug 21, 2002 10:01 am

jw,

I believe your statement to be inaccurate. I believe organisations such as the PLO are capable of amending their goal depending on the circumstances. Organisations like the Hamas however, are the ones more likely to continue this action without end.

However, as they make up a minor portion of the Palestinian people it is more than likely that they will lose their support when the situation improves in Palestine.

It helps nobody to be the bearer of doom and gloom. Realism and pessimism are not the same thing.



VH-ADG
 
artsyman
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Wed Aug 21, 2002 10:06 am

Well done ADG, this is the first post of moderation that I have noticed from you, and I commend you for it.

Jer
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Wed Aug 21, 2002 12:08 pm

On a related matter, why don't Israel just build walls round their land? Palestinians shouldn't go into Israeli land, and Israelis dont want to go into Palestinaian land.

They have built a fence separating Israel from parts of the occupied lands. It may be the best idea anyone has had in a conflict where neither side has had any good ideas.

So if Israel removes the reasons for Hamas' grievances (i.e. the occupation and brutalisation of Palestinian territory), and then Hamas continue their attacks, then the Israelis could then say that Hamas is purely a terrorist organisation and not the freedom-fighters that Hamas claims they are.

I agree, Ryan, but only to a point. If it's one or two suicide attacks, Israel needs to grit it's teeth, ignore it, take the high ground, and plod along on the peace talks. But if it becomes a bloodbath writ-large, and the Arab world still stand idly by and doesnt' condemn it, Israel MUST defend its citizens.

The policy of retaliation DOES NOT WORK!

No, it does not, 777236ER, but ANY government cannot allow a wholesale slaughter of its citizens-the U.K., the U.S., Germany-no one. If it comes to the point where Hamas, et al, is just slaughtering Israelis, Israel would respond in a big way-any nation would. But if this plan is to work now, the Arabs (not just the Palestinians), MUST try to make sure this doesn't happen.

Regarding the moral high ground, israel cant win.

Israel CAN win if it shows that it can have some patience, even in the face of some Israeli casualties. Again, short of an all-out Hamas offensive where hundreds or thousands of Israelis are being attacked in a short period of time, Israel can gain some moral respect from the world-even from the Arabs, by just being patient.

The reality is that both sides are equally to blame here. Both sides have equally valid claims to territory ... but unfortunately hardliners in both camps refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the other's claim.

Until that happens, there will be no peace in the region.


I'm heartened, SAS23, to hear you say that Israel has valid claims here, and that both sides are stubborn asses . It's the most reasonable and logical thing you've said on here regarding this ongoing tragedy. I congratulate you. Well done.

I believe organisations such as the PLO are capable of amending their goal depending on the circumstances.

I hope you're right, ADG-I really do, but up till now, neither the PLO nor Israel under Sharon have showed any flexibility on much of anything.

Organisations like the Hamas however, are the ones more likely to continue this action without end.

Therin lies the the constant sticking point, ADG. You have, as JetService pointed out, Group 1-Israel, and Group 2-the PA, constantly being thwarted by Group 3-the terrorists. Yet both Group 1 and Group 2 need to grit their teeth for a while, and ignore Group 3, unless Group 3 initiates a bloodbath of 9/11 proportions, and just go forward with the mission of hammering out a peace. If they can do that, Group 3 will become isolated even in the Arab world.

I congratulate everyone on this thread-it's the most civilized, and the most thoughtful thread on this agonizing issue. Those on both sides, finally, may be finding a little common ground. Too bad we can't go en masse to the negotiations and say "look, if this crazy bunch can find common ground, so can you, Goddammit, so get to it!"

Well done everyone. A five-star for this one.
 
Guest

RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Wed Aug 21, 2002 11:21 pm

WN700,
the only "incidents" which have stopped each initiatives to restart the peace negociations are the terror bombings in Israel; you speak of "Palestinian kids throwing stones at tanks" and add that you hope that the reached agreement would be strong enough to ensure that one little incident won't let all hell break loose.

And here is the complete "context":

"I would not like to see all this progress get thrown away bc some IDF commander sees an inflamitory slogan & reacts to personally, or because some Palastinian kid starts throwing stones at a tank. This does need to be a strong enough agreement to ensure that one little incident won't let all hell break loose. Anyways, yeah I am long winded, so I will stop now"

Could you then explain to what the notion of "little incident" is referring...? What kind of "little incidents" are potentially able to "let all hell break loose"..?


* * * *

...or you are simply as determined as HAMAS or Jihad is to make sure that something like this never happens

- really highly spiritual

 
ryanb741
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Wed Aug 21, 2002 11:50 pm

I agree, Ryan, but only to a point. If it's one or two suicide attacks, Israel needs to grit it's teeth, ignore it, take the high ground, and plod along on the peace talks. But if it becomes a bloodbath writ-large, and the Arab world still stand idly by and doesnt' condemn it, Israel MUST defend its citizens.

I agree totally Alpha_1. But the difference would be that Israel would have demonstrated that it was UNCONDITIONALLY trying for piece, and the Arabs had blown it. In this case, any action by Israelis would not be regarded as 'bullying' etc, it would be regarded as a legitimate war against terrorists.

You see, the current situation is very clouded. Yes, Israel has every right to prevent its civilians being murdered, but there is always the opposing argument that the Israelis shouldn't be in Palestine in the first place. So, by withdrawing from palestinian territory unconditionally, Israel shows its determination for peace and removes all charges of being a bully. If the terrorists STILL want to fight, well then it is the terrorists fault for being against peace, and any Israeli action would be viewed far more sympathetically throughout the World.

After all, what has Israel got to lose? Without being blunt, lets face it that some Israelis will be killed soon anyway as part of the Intifada, with claims that the killings were done as part of a freedom fight. If the palestinians are given freedom, and the suicide attacks come, well Israel hasn't lost anything because those civilians would have died anyway in the current climate (I know this sounds awfully matter-of-fact and unfeeling, especially as it concerns people's lives - trust me it does sadden me but lets just look at 'statistics' for now). The difference now is that the Israelis could properly get rid of Hamas and co (which they can't do now because of public opinion), because Hamas can no longer claim to be 'freedom fighters' but terrorists instead. So Israel wins the moral upper hand and also suffers less casualties in the long term compared to the current tit for tat killings.

I also firmly believe that at least some of the more moderate Arab countries would understand that Israel had truly tried for peace. I don't mean that the Israelis should annihilate the Palestinians (after taking out Hamas once and for all the palestinian state should go ahead as planned). Just take out the terrorists.

Once the killings on both sides stop, people will gradually lose the hatred over time as their living conditions improve.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Guest

RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Thu Aug 22, 2002 12:29 am

Ryan, you clearly miss the point.

The whole phenomenon of mass suicide bombings has not started with the occupation...it has begun exactly at the moment when occupation was beginning to end...! These horrible attacks have begun when for the first time in History there was a kind of Palestinian autonomous political form; it has begun when there were Palestinian "policemen" in the streets of Gaza, Jericho, Tulkarem, Nablus, Jenin or Ramallah instead of Turks, British, Israelis or whoever else... 98% of the Palestinian population was living under Palestinian authority; more than 100 000 Palestinians were coming daily in Israel to work and so on... And yet, when a political solution to the conflict was envisioned and when the first signs of a Palestinian statehood were beginning to show, the worst terror also started to transform everyday life in Israel into a kind of perpetual nightmare.


After all, what has Israel got to lose? Without being blunt, lets face it that some Israelis will be killed soon anyway as part of the Intifada, with claims that the killings were done as part of a freedom fight. If the palestinians are given freedom, and the suicide attacks come, well Israel hasn't lost anything because those civilians would have died anyway in the current climate...

- these are statistics, yes; but the stats are also evidently indicating that WHILE the IDF are in the territories, the situation is MUCH more secure in Israel. And that's an essential element...
The facts are crystal clear : BEFORE the Oslo process, before the creation of the Palestinian autonomous zones, the Palestinians were not able to build the heavy terror infrastructure they've built since then. The proof, for anyone who may be spektical about these facts, is that Israel had NEVER experienced attacks of a similar scale before the Oslo accords, never.

* * *

The difference now is that the Israelis could properly get rid of Hamas and co (which they can't do now because of public opinion),

- interesting...but could you tell us HOW the Israelis could properly get rid of Hamas...

* * *

compared to the current tit for tat killings.

- What are you calling "tit for tat killings"???
How many Palestinian restaurants have been blown up after a carnage in an Israeli one? - How many Palestinian busses have exploded with dozens of innocent travellers inside? And so on...THAT would be "tit for tat".
 
go canada!
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Thu Aug 22, 2002 12:43 am

ADG,

Do you not agree that the events show that no matter what happens, the terrorists will not stop?

do you not agree that this is a chance for the P.A to clamp down on the terrorists?

Do you not agree that there can be no excuses from the P.A if suicide bombers appear from regions which they control?

Do you not welcome the realse of palestinian tax dollars as well as talks on humanitarian issues between israel and the P.A?


the fact is jetservice has made very vaild points, for all our disagreements on israel-palestine, the terrorist point is glossed over. We all agree that Palestine should exist, that israel should withdraw to pre-1967 borders, that the settlements need to be dismantled etc, however none of this can happen until yasser arafat and the P.A clamp down on the terrorists.

its interesting to see a developement, the number of people who were in the centre regarding israel-palestine(eg jetservice, ryan etc) as well as in a wider context can all see that peace in the middle east rests on yasser arafat and the P.A.they might disgaree on some points of israeli actions but everyone is recongising that its down to the palestinians.

Its quite simple, if they dont clamp down on the terrorists, Israel will exterminate the terrorists(not the innocent civilians) and will get rid of yasser arafat, regards of screaming from arabs, pressure groups etc, it will simply do it.

The bbc made the point on monday night that the palestinians know this is their last chance, if terrorists come from regions the palestinians control then israel will be back and twice as mighty.

The fact is the terror attacks were happening when the PA had majority control of the west bank and control of the gaza strip, they happened before during and after the peace process, they happened before israel exist, after it was created and before the six day war, they happened afterwards as well and until people realise this we wont get anywhere.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
wn700driver
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Thu Aug 22, 2002 12:52 am

Toda,

I don't know how to make my position more clear. It's a delicate yet important process, this peace. You really can't let a few skirmishes & bombings (which hopefully fade & dissapear with a few weeks time), derail that by way of causing a reversion to the status quo ante. Obviously for some reason, either you can't tell or cannot believe that this would actually apply to both sides.

All hell breaking loose: The obvious. IDF & Hamas resume fighting & bombings. I can't understand how you wouldn't know what that means. Hope you do now.

Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
go canada!
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Thu Aug 22, 2002 12:54 am

wn, what toda is trying to say is that israels already done this in the past. an example, a few months back it withdrew from the west bank for three weeks, did the attacks stop? no they increased.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Guest

RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Thu Aug 22, 2002 1:26 am

IDF & Hamas resume fighting & bombings

Well...this sentence alone says it all, WN700.

You need no further efforts to "make your position more clear".
 
777236ER
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Thu Aug 22, 2002 2:09 am

CHING CHING CHING!!! And the terrorist card is brought out by Toda. Much later than I thought, to be honest.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Guest

RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Thu Aug 22, 2002 2:12 am

Yes 777236...it is not even worth mentionning these little incidents...



...until the al-Qaida "urban jihad" arrives in London, perhaps? Have a look on cnn.com, it's worth
 
wn700driver
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Thu Aug 22, 2002 2:43 am

Canada,

wn, what toda is trying to say is that israels already done this in the past. an example, a few months back it withdrew from the west bank for three weeks, did the attacks stop? no they increased.


I understand that completely. All I said is that if the Isrealis withdraw completely from WB & Gaza, & Hamas & PLO & whatnot stops with the bombings, then that's that; the end of the story & life goes on. The P's get a new state, & godwilling the I's get a lot more respect in the world for "doing the right thing". What a nightmare this would be for Al-Q, Saddam, & pretty much anyone else in the region who's only expertise is mayhem.

If however,after a few months, Isreal is still sustaining attacks (but NOT retaliating), they now have the moral authority to do what ever the hell they please to Palastine as a whole, not just HAMAS & PLO. In that situation, I very much doubt that any Western Nation would look down upon them. You see what I am driving at here?

It seems that nearly everyone here, with the noted exception of Toda, is in favour of this. My frustration with this is that he feels the need to take literally everything I say out of context, and try to make it seem as though I think this is a bad idea. Perhaps because I am not a zionist (how dare I agree with something that blatently favours Isreal in that case, the nerve of me!)? Who knows. Anyways, this is just another example that there will always be people on both sides who are determined to dereail all such endevours in the future. It's a damned shame...
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
Guest

RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Thu Aug 22, 2002 4:14 am

...or you are simply as determined as HAMAS or Jihad is to make sure that something like this never happens


It seems that nearly everyone here, with the noted exception of Toda, is in favour of this. My frustration with this is that he feels the need to take literally everything I say out of context, and try to make it seem as though I think this is a bad idea. Perhaps because I am not a zionist (how dare I agree with something that blatently favours Isreal in that case, the nerve of me!)? Who knows. Anyways, this is just another example that there will always be people on both sides who are determined to dereail all such endevours in the future. It's a damned shame...


I see BTW that it is an obsession for you to put me in the same category as evil murderers which are Hamas, Islamic jihad & co.


Or did I take the quotations "out of their context"...?




* * * * * *

BTW...try to go a little further in your plans, and to imagine what would happen in a few months or even years; during the last decade, the PLO has (of course...!) done NOTHING to prevent terror activity against Israel from within the territory which was handed over to it. Why should this suddenly change? Arafat has been given already 1000 times a "last chance to show he is fighting terror"... In December 2001, after yet another serie of suicide bombings (11 teenagers killed in downtown Jerusalem, 15 people killed in the first suicide bombing in Haifa, among other atrocities), Arafat declared a "cease-fire" to avoid a massive Israeli operation. BUT, in the MEANTIME, he was going to receive a ship loaded with 50 tons of terror arsenal from Iran...in order to fully implement his "cease-fire"...
So, there is no reason to believe that this will change; in a few months or years, the Palestinians are able to organize terror attacks of still a greater scale. For instance, they can EASILY shoot down a big plane landing at BGN airport, or they can continue to send suicide bombers everywhere, or they can try to blow up some chemical or military installation and that kind of horrors; the last few years have sadly demonstrated that there are no limits to these evil ideas.
AND WHAT?? What is your plan at that time? Israel will gloriously re-enter these territories (losing dozens or hundreds of soldiers) with the approval of the entire world...? Sure...

Now I have to go, I'll come back to my computer only tomorrow. Good night everybody.
 
wn700driver
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Thu Aug 22, 2002 4:20 am

It would be interesting to see what becomes of jerusalem. It would be the 1st major city since Berlin to be situated in two nations. Ryan or Canada, or Alpha, or SAS or anyone actually, what do you all think is the best way to go about partitioning off that particular location? Ideas?
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Thu Aug 22, 2002 11:43 am

Ryan or Canada, or Alpha, or SAS or anyone actually, what do you all think is the best way to go about partitioning off that particular location? Ideas?

Honestly, I like the idea that was in the Clancy book "The Sum of All Fears": Make it an Open International City, which neither side can claim as their capital, under the auspices of a neutral party like The Vatican, administered by a Trioka of religious clerics from each of the three Religions "Of The Book"-Judiasim, Islam and Christianity, and using peacekeepers, such as the Swiss Guard (According to Clancy, the Swiss Guard are the guards used in the Vatican), or some other neutral force.

But I think it HAS to be declared a neutral, open city-a true Holy Ground that is home to the three religions I've mentioned.
 
LY744
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Thu Aug 22, 2002 9:08 pm

The Eastern part of the city needs to have a special status making it easily accessible for both Israelis and Palestinians, as well as silly religious people from all over the world. The Western part has absolutely no value to anyone but the Israelis (no holy sites or anything, built mostly in the 20th century).

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Thu Aug 22, 2002 9:11 pm

LY744, either all of Jeruselem is declared an open city, or it wouldn't fly in the world community. THE CITY HAS VALUE TO THE WORLD AS THE HOME OF THE THREE FAITHS OF THE BOOK! You can't cordon off one end and make it Israeli simply because "it has no value" to anyone else. If the Arab sections are made an Open City, so must the Jewish and Christian sections. That's the only fair and equitable solution.
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Thu Aug 22, 2002 9:19 pm

Well, hello! Judaism's only holy site in the world is located in East Jerusalem. That sounds like a fair share to give as compared to Islam's 3rd or 4th most important holy site, built on top of the former Jewish #1. I don't think anyone has any interest in a bunch of houses, apartment buildings and shopping malls.  Big grin

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Thu Aug 22, 2002 9:23 pm

Well, hello! Judaism's only holy site in the world is located in East Jerusalem. That sounds like a fair share to give as compared to Islam's 3rd or 4th most important holy site, built on top of the former Jewish #1. I don't think anyone has any interest in a bunch of houses, apartment buildings and shopping malls.

Again, it's either all open, or I know I wouldn't agree to the deal, even as an American that is a strong supporter of Israel. And therin lies the problem-BOTH SIDES put in little caveats like this, instead of swallowing their stubborn pride and making a deal that will end the violence!!

And remember-the holiest site of Christianity is in Jeruselem, too. But it, too, should be part of this Open City.
 
qatarairways
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:06 pm

"Well, hello! Judaism's only holy site in the world is located in East Jerusalem. That sounds like a fair share to give as compared to Islam's 3rd or 4th most important holy site, built on top of the former Jewish #1"

Al-Aqsa mosque is currently the 2nd holiest place but will be the 1st holiest site after Mecca is destroyed.
 
LY744
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Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:28 pm

"-the holiest site of Christianity is in Jeruselem, too"

Yeah, East Jerusalem.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:33 pm

Yeah, East Jerusalem.

STOP DIVIDING JERSUALEM UP!!! You're putting roadblocks where none should be. Either ALL of Jerselem is declared an Open City-owned by neither Israel not Palestine, or you don't have a deal, and you keep a major stumbling block to end the bloodshed!! It's obvious that neither the Palestinians or the Israelis-as seen in your stance, LY744, wants to give up all or a portion of the Holy City, so let's make it a part of a broad international settlement to this decades-old conflict.

Under this scenario, Israel WILL NOT keep ANY portion of Jeruselem-neither will the Palestinains. It will be an International City.
 
wn700driver
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RE: Time To Test Israel's Resolve

Thu Aug 22, 2002 11:17 pm

I have read that too alpha (Muuuuuuuuch better than the movie btw), & think it is a good idea. However, I think it may be difficult, particularly among the eastern christtian sects, to fairly delegate authority. I do belive that after the WB & Gaza issues, once this one is solved, that will pretty much end non-random violence in the region...
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear

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