jessman
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Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 7:02 am

This is inspired by the "Teens: Pot easier to get than cigaretts or beer" thread. The war on drugs is obviously not working. Drugs are just as easy to get as anything else on the free market. Pot is a plant; Jimson weed is a plant; opium comes from a plant, extacy is easily made with legal chemicals. With several drugs they are essentially trying to make a plant illegal, but the plant is going to grow anyway.

To compound that no program is going to make someone not want to get high. People in general want to get high, jail or no jail.

Finally programs like Dare are not working as they wanted them to because the kids go home to their parents who are toking up.

I don't do drugs, drugs are not a smart idea, IMHO. I also don't smoke and I don't drink alcohol, however I don't feel there is a need to limit people's ability to drink or smoke. Prohibition failed miserably, and I think it's time to make the war on drugs go the way of prohibition. Tax the heck out of them, set age limits, whatever; but don't send people to jail to suck tax dollars and become harder criminals. What do you all think?
 
Superfly
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 7:25 am

I agree with you about this.
The so-called 'War On Drugs' tramples over the 4th Amendment and has over-crowed prisons with non-violent people. Prisons have become modern day plantations. Look at those incarcerated now. Most are ancestors of slaves.
The prison lobby is a powerful and growing organization that has tremendous amount of influence on state legislatures nationwide. Prison labor has replaced many jobs here in the U.S.
They make furniture, school supplies and many other products.
This is another example of how governments control and take away it's own peoples civil liberties.
This whole 'war on drugs' is just something to scare people and harden people’s attitudes to elect politicians who want to facilitate this evil policy.

What's in it for the government to have a drug-free society any way?
Absolutely nothing!
There is no money to be made in peaceful and law-abiding society.
Bring back the Concorde
 
jessman
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:02 am

Yes Superfly;
I forgot all about the race issue, but it is true. I believe the fact that laws against crack cocaine are more stringent than laws against powder cocaine is huge evidence of racism on the institutional level in the United States of America. Most folks know full well that crack, the cheaper of the two, is known as an inner city and therefore black drug, whereas powder cocaine is more expensive and is often used by celebrities and suburban folks, who are overwhelmingly white. As well as the fact that the police really only target the drug dealers in the inner city who generally happen to be black, but they usually turn the other way as the suburban white folk drive back to their homes to get high in relative peace. The only real exception to this is when the bust the suburban growers whose basements are almost glowing from the heat lamps and such, but there are so few of them that it's not really fair anyway.

With race in the picture this is not only a trampling of the 4th amendment, but a de-facto trampling of the 13th; 14th and 15th amendments.

By the way, I've been agreeing with you more often lately, Superfly. Maybe I should check my blood sugar  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
Superfly
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:15 am

Jessmen:
Maybe I should check my blood sugar

Funny, very funny!  Laugh out loud

I am glad others see this as a problem. I didn't even think about the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendment.
Good observation.
Bring back the Concorde
 
dripstick
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:16 am

No, I don't think we should stop the war on drugs. The fact remains some people will progress from pot to needles and crack and associated crimes to support their habit. The easier you make the access to these drugs to these week people, the more problems you'll see and have to fund...



Sometimes it seems futile, but I think it's a good fight.
What's another word for thesaurus?
 
Superfly
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:25 am

Dripstick:
What ever happened to individual responsibility?
Is someone is stupid enough to sniff there brains out to oblivion, go right ahead and do it away from everyone else.
There are plenty of people that want to get ahead and succeed in life.
I see no need for this paranoid state to rid the world of drugs.

Maybe if you were stopped by police, handcuffed, held up for an hour and had your car completely searched because the police had a 'suspicion'  Yeah sure that you may had drugs in your car, then I am sure you will see this argument in a different light.
Bring back the Concorde
 
KROC
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:29 am

What ever happened to individual responsibility?
Is someone is stupid enough to sniff there brains out to oblivion, go right ahead and do it away from everyone else.


Individuals have shown and proven that as a whole, they have no responsibility. And before you say let them rot their brain (which I would agree with), its when there F-ups start affecting other people, that something needs to be done.
 
dripstick
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:35 am

Like I said, the WEEK people are the ones that we all end up being affected by. Both, by having to foot the bill when they need help, and when we're victims of their crimes.

I'm talking about people who progress from pot. Some do, most don't.
What's another word for thesaurus?
 
jessman
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:38 am

Superfly, I'm a white boy and I got my pickup truck searched. I know what you're talking about on that hassle. To give you a little background I was driving at about 1AM home from work on a deserted interstate and I wasn't exactly paying so much attention to my driving. The cop said I was "weaving". I didn't think so, but I was tired. My pickup was about 10 years old, leaked fluids, and generally smelled funny; so my girlfriend burned some incence to make the smell a little better. So here I am and the cop wants to search my truck, so he does. I just have to stand around and wait. Thankfully I wasn't handcuffed, but this was still not a pleasant experience.
 
Superfly
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:40 am

If a crack addict robs a store to feed there habit, there are laws already on the books to deal with this.

It's called burglary.
No need to attact a different name to the crime.

Also drug treatment for those who want it is much cheaper than incarceration.
Bring back the Concorde
 
dripstick
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:40 am



What's another word for thesaurus?
 
dripstick
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:43 am

Crimes involving drug addicts are almost always violent.

Do you want your sister shot dead in a car-jacking by some wacko high on the juice?
What's another word for thesaurus?
 
Superfly
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:49 am

Dripstick:
Do you want your sister shot dead in a car-jacking by some wacko high on the juice?


Of course not!
I am still trying to figure out how this ties in to the war on drugs policy.
The war on drugs in an un-winable war.
If there was treatment programs, they wouldn't need to resort to violent measures to get a fix.
Bring back the Concorde
 
KROC
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:49 am

Superfly, I'm a white boy and I got my pickup truck searched. I know what you're talking about on that hassle.

Hassle maybe, but if you have nothing to worry about, then it should not be a big deal.
 
jessman
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:55 am

Dripstick and KROC; the problem is that those who want to rot their brain are going to rot their brain legal or not.

We end up footing the bill double when the drugs are illegal because those that can't hold a job are on welfare anyway and when they get caught they go to jail where we pay for their room and food. And they often still get drugs in jail!

For better or worse we sit idle when celebrities go in and out of rehab, most of them don't see a day in jail. If it's ok for them how can we tell anyone it's not OK.

Finally you admit that the vast majority of pot smokers don't go on to harder drugs. Nicotene is a Drug. Alcohol is a DRUG. Now that they are legal they are HARDER for children to get access to. The reason? they're expensive. You don't see local farmer brown selling contraband cigars from his tobacco patch, why? because it benefiets farmer brown to sell his tobacco to a reputable dealer. The same thing would happen with pot. Heck, the same thing would happen with coke. Why not have the government slap a fat tax on these products and bring in some revenue instead of spending so much time and money catching, prosecuting, and incarcerating those that use them.
 
KROC
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:55 am

The war on drugs may be unwinable, but with no effort to curtail drugs in the first place, society would be over run by them, because people for the most part have shown how irresponsible they can be.
 
KROC
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:58 am

Jessman. Cocaine is highly addicting. Slap all the taxes you want on it, and the recreational user will most likely turn into a daily user doing whatever it takes to get that hit.
 
Superfly
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 9:04 am

KROC:
Hassle maybe, but if you have nothing to worry about, then it should not be a big deal.

What if your in a rush and have a flight to catch?
Any way you look at it, it's still a huge unnecessary inconvience.
I assume this has never happened to you.



Jessman:
You also raise another good point about tobacco and alcohal.

Other addictive drugs are being marketed LEAGALLY on TV as if it's a candy of some sort. I am talking about Paxil, Prilosec and other LEGAL mind-altering drugs that have tremendous negative side-effects.
This stuff is way more dangerous and addictive than pot.
Also Prosac, Ritalin (sp) are other over-perscribed drugs than many people (especially women) rush out and buy. These are the same people would totally scoff or turn there nose up at someone that occasionally smokes a joint.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Superfly
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 9:06 am

KROC:
The war on drugs may be unwinable, but with no effort to curtail drugs in the first place, society would be over run by them, because people for the most part have shown how irresponsible they can be.


Thanks for backing up my point.  Smile
although I don't think it was intentional on your part


TREATMENT is what's needed.
Bring back the Concorde
 
KROC
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 9:07 am

I assume this has never happened to you.

You know what happens when you ASSume Superfly. Actually it has happened to me. Most notably late at night in South Central L.A. A White Boy rollin' in the hood...must be looking for drugs. Cops fucked with me for an hour, but I understood why.
 
KROC
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 9:10 am

Other addictive drugs are being marketed LEAGALLY on TV as if it's a candy of some sort. I am talking about Paxil, Prilosec and other LEGAL mind-altering drugs that have tremendous negative side-effects.

LMAO. Whatever. Last time I checked, I just couldn't get Paxil on the corner (easily), and I needed a prescription to get it. Also, drugs like that are for people with a certain need. let me guess Superfly...you have cataracs?
 
Superfly
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 9:13 am

KROC:
Actually I have 20/20 vision.

Also you totally missed my point.

I'll be back later when I get in from work.
Bring back the Concorde
 
jessman
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 9:17 am

Whatever. Last time I checked, I just couldn't get Paxil on the corner (easily), and I needed a prescription to get it
Actually I can go to the local dealers and put in an order for about any prescription drug you can think of; Oxy-Contin, Paxil; Ritalin, whatever you want. It's fairly easy to get these drugs because you just have to get the right contacts, people with that prescription will sell you their pills, that's how Oxy-Contin got huge, and when the law cracked down the hooked turned to heroin. Nice.
If you don't know someone with the prescription you can steal a doctor's prescription pad, or just print your own. Or even easier you can make the pharmicist an offer he can't refuse. Harder things are done every day.

Point being, it's not hard.
 
learpilot
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 9:47 am

What if your in a rush and have a flight to catch?
Any way you look at it, it's still a huge unnecessary inconvience.
I assume this has never happened to you.

You should have left earlier.

I hate to jump in the middle of an argument, but here it goes. If you are upset that the police are suspicious, maybe you should take that up with the people who give them reason to be suspicious. If it's an inconvenience to be looked at by the authorities, you need to separate yourself from that environment. If you don't want to go somewhere else, then you need to do something to clean up said area. Don't blame the police for inconveniencing you if you're willing to let other people run down your area.

If I fit a profile of someone the police are suspicious about, let them search me. I've got nothing to hide. If you're not hiding anything, you shouldn't be concerned either. If they think they need to continuously stop and search, me, then common sense says that I probably shouldn't go there any more.

There's no way they should legalize drugs or discontinue the war on drugs. I'm not ready to be mugged by some welfare idiot who doesn't have enough money to buy his own fix. If they legalize drugs, that's exactly what we'll have. You know, since it's always everyone else's fault. I can hear the court case now: "It wasn't my fault. If drugs weren't so easy to get I wouldn't have turned into a junkie, and I wouldn't have had to rob and kill that guy to support my habit. Society turned me this way. It wasn't my fault."

Heed our warnings or your future will be underpant free!
 
jessman
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 10:19 am

Don't blame the police for inconveniencing you if you're willing to let other people run down your area.

If I fit a profile of someone the police are suspicious about, let them search me. I've got nothing to hide. If you're not hiding anything, you shouldn't be concerned either.


You're thinking in terms of a perfect world, we don't live in a perfect world. Most police officers are honest citizens. Some are not. There have been cases where police officers have planted evidence. Actually some police officers will justify this action in their minds. In their minds you have done something wrong. Just because they can't prove it there doesn't mean you should go free in their mind, so oh, what's this, a bag of coke under the seat...You're under arrest for possesion with the intent to distribute. As sad as it is, things happen. Then the jury you're assigned decides that if the cop took the time to arrest you, you must be guilty. Worse things have happened. When I was pulled over the cop told me "I think it smells like you have been smoking marijuana." In hindsight that could have been interpreted as a threat.
 
Leftypilot79
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 10:29 am

Ok...it seems the Netherlands has made it work right? Can anyone explain how it works there? Im not super familiar with it. Some hard drugs shouldn't be made legal....crack cocaine, heroin, the HARD chemical crap. But come on....Pot? I think booze screw you up more. And how many STONERS go out and hold people up to puff one more bowl? LOL...not many. They might want to get a bite of your burger....but they aren't gonna jack you up.

On another note...both of my parents (dad and step mom) work in a Methadone clinic, and have been there since I was born. I've been raised around it and have seen the horrible things that people do to get high. How about shooting up in your eye, in between your toes, perenium, right between your testies, and the base of your penis. I have to say....people do get pretty desperate sometimes. Hard drugs for the most part should be kept illegal...but soft drugs should just be taxed or something along those lines.


aaron
 
Superfly
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 10:30 am

Learpilot:
What on earth are you talking about?  Confused

If it's an inconvenience to be looked at by the authorities, you need to separate yourself from that environment

In my own neighborhood that was lilly white?  Confused

Oh I get it it, Blacks should stay out of White neighborhoods? Is that what your saying?

If I fit a profile of someone the police are suspicious about, let them search me

What if there was no profile in the first place?


When I was pulled over by LAPD I would do a follow up and never was there any profile or reports of a shaddy character that looked like me.


You should have left earlier.
What if they do leave plenty of time to get to ware they need to go and still get delayed.




maybe you should take that up with the people who give them reason to be suspicious

Have you done that to those who are criminals that fit YOUR profile Learpilot?  Insane

Bring back the Concorde
 
Hepkat
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 10:37 am

While still in the U.S. I shared many of your views, that drug use should remain illegal and offenders carted off to jail for a long time. Since living in Europe however, I've noticed that they have a different approach, which seems to be working, at least according to a Times article I read a couple weeks ago.

While the U.S. has been slowly strengthening its drug laws, Europe has been laxing theirs. The results? Europe now has MUCH lower drug use, drug related violence and incarceration is way down, and at least the Netherlands is raking in untold millions in marijuana taxes.

It's a fact that the war on drugs is a losing battle. I graduated from college just 5 years ago, and I can tell you STORIES of drug use no parent has ever heard about. If you guys think we're winning this war, you're obviously living a life of grand delusion. The war keeps the demand for drugs at a very high level, which in turns keeps the prices high, which makes it a very valuable and illegal commodity worth cultivating, shipping and fighting over.

Now if drugs were legalized and easily available in a controlled environment (like alcohol or cigarettes), I guarantee you the price and demand would plummet overnight. Drug cartels would be ruined in the blinking of an eye. Drug warfare and violence would disappear overnight, as the goods could be easily bought over a store counter. This would also have a huge impact on crimes involving weapons (hand guns). U.S. Custom agents could channel resources to more worthwhile causes and save hundreds of millions in the process since it would no longer be profitable to smuggle drugs. Cities and states could dismantle their drug programs, saving millions of tax payers money. Children and young adults won't be so anxious to try drugs since it's no longer forbidden. Sure, there will be those that make a mess of themselves no matter what you do, but sending these individuals to drug treatment programs instead of to jail, like they do in the Netherlands, would still save the state hundreds of millions of dollars. It would be the lesser of two evils and absolutely no different from what we currently do to cigarette and alcohol abusers today.

But as usual, in the U.S. conservative minded individuals have to bring their morals into everything. I'm only glad that in a few years, eventually, as always, we'll realize that we're heading in the wrong direction and change.
 
AerLingus
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 10:43 am

Jessman, I agree that evidence planting is a very real threat. Some police officers pull over people and plant evidence just for the sake of making themselves look good when they can claim to have handed in a ton of dealers and users.

Back to the topic, now. The war on drugs, in my opinion has destroyed more lives than it has saved. Militantism runs rampant in Colombia, Mexico's public officials are corrupted by money gotten from the drug trade or are too afraid to do anything for fear of being mowed down in a hail of bullets and on the streets. People live and die by the lifestyle of the illegal drug dealer.

When people can legally swallow handfuls of mind-altering medications like trail mix for depression and other people can't go home, smoke a joint and be a law-abiding citizen, then it's a sad social commentary on how political posturing has let our society suffer. Illegal drug money pays for terrorism. In our own way, the more we fight them, the more coffins we nail shut.

The logic suggests that criminalizing certain narcotics leads to a lucrative business for those who do it. That leads to violence on the streets. When was the last time you heard of NICOTINE money fueling terrorism in certain countries? When was the last time you heard of nicotine causing street wars between gangs who supplement their income with the money made from sales of the stuff? Prohibition was no different than the war on drugs of today.
Get your patchouli stink outta my store!
 
GD727
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 10:53 am

We cannot stop the War On Drugs. Yes, they are fairly easy to get these days, but we must have control over them. We don't have complete control over them, but we have some, and some is better than none. Drugs cause crime and violence, so if we let go of the amount of control we have now, crime would skyrocket! We just have to try harder to stop them!

-GD727
Mmmm forbidden donut.
 
roguetrader
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 10:32 pm

The drug laws should be relaxed. The war is unwinnable and, even worse, it gives the police state more power to do things in the name of fighting drugs. All the police have to do is mention drugs and many will give them a virtual blank check to act however they please.

Its exactly like the prohibition of alcohol in the US during the 1920s - we can thank that well-intended legislation for giving organized crime a permanent and powerful foothold in the country as it provided mostly what people wanted but were unable to get from legal sources.

I have heard some talk over the years that the biggest support for the 'war on drugs' comes from the drug lords themselves. Keeping drugs illegal keeps both the police and dealers in business. Its like dentists and tooth decay - what incentive do they have to ever find a cure? Yet, simultaneously we must constantly be reminded of its danger. Take drugs away and the police would be left to fight crime, which they hate, they'd rather fight people.

This is purely subjective of course, but the places I've been in Europe where the drug laws are relaxed, especially Amsterdam, are safer and less violent than any major American city. I believe the culture of breaking the law and the high profits that comes with dealing in contraband creates a backwards, underground sub-society in America that solves problems via violence and is often kept outside the view or concerns of 'mainstream' America.

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
Hepkat
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Wed Aug 21, 2002 11:28 pm

Drugs cause crime and violence, so if we let go of the amount of control we have now, crime would skyrocket!

GD727, what are you saying? Do you have research to back up this assertion? There's absolutely NO evidence that legalizing drugs will cause crime to skyrocket. Evidence in Europe has shown the exact OPPOSITE. Decriminalizing drugs causes the demand to disappear, which immediately dissipates any violence associated with it. When was the last time you heard of a gang war over alcohol or cigarettes?

Drugs cause crime and violence ONLY because it's illegal. No my friend, crime would NOT skyrocket. Rather it would plunge.
 
us330
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Thu Aug 22, 2002 12:27 am

I discussed this idea with my parents after watching John Stossel's (For those of you who do not know, Stossel is probably the #3 guy on 20/20) special report with the same title as this thread.
My theory is this: the US should legalize the "harder drugs" such as Heroin, Crack, etc. while still making Marijuana illegal. Why? Because the real money for the drug dealers is in heroin and crack, which they can charge extremely high prices for because of supply and demand. Now, if they are legalized, the prices will bottom out and suddenly it becomes more economically feasible for the poverty stricken farmers in Colombia to raise bananas and sugar instead of the coca plants, thus destroying the cartels in the process.
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Thu Aug 22, 2002 2:35 am

Look how far we've come:

The War On Poverty - is that still on?

The War On Drugs - if I was so inclined I could pick up a phone now and have
a nice selection DELIVERED to my home, like a pizza.

The War On Terrorism - as winnable as the previous 2, and has the potential to escalate into World War III, thus turning it into....

The War On Human Existance

...let the roaches take over  Yeah sure
Next up: STL-OAK-RNO-LAS-ICT-STL
 
mbmbos
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Thu Aug 22, 2002 2:45 am

"The fact remains some people will progress from pot to needles and crack and associated crimes to support their habit..."

Is that a fact? I don't think you will find that the evidence supports that "fact." And if, perchance, you can prove a causal relationship between marijuana use and hard drug use, then you have all the more reason to remove pot sales from hard drug dealers by legalizing it and devising a regulated distribution system for it.
 
GDB
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Thu Aug 22, 2002 2:50 am

Prohibition gave you the Mafia, so lessons haven't been learned, though I'll admit it's a difficult subject.
I never saw them, but I've heard that it's fairly normal to have an anti-drug advert on US television followed by;

"It's Miller time"
Or
"This Bud's for you"

Anyone care to dwell on the irony?
 
lehpron
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Thu Aug 22, 2002 3:31 am

YES, YES, Legalize it all! All the drugs and alcohols and porno -- everything.

Seriously, studies of children who have there candy rations severely restricted have shown that, given the opportunity, will stuff their faces until they get sick. Those children who eat moderately were given the same opportunity and more or less ignored the candy on the table. Adults are instinctually, the same.

The reason we have a war on drugs is because we have restricted it to the point where a black market has been created. Lifting most of the restrictions will put the black markets out of business -- hence the war has been one. Once this has been done, those who end up abusing themselves in a free-for-all will die off and the smart ones who do things in moderation will survive.

I thank Darwin for helping me with this response. Big grin
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
GD727
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Thu Aug 22, 2002 6:00 am

Hepkat: Decriminalizing drugs causes the demand to disappear, which immediately dissipates any violence associated with it. How do you know demand will disapear? Do you think people buy drugs because they want to break the law? Of course not, they buy them to get high. Most drug dealers are crazy bastards that will gun down anyone who rips them off, so drugs DO cause crime. Europe is completley different from the US, what works there does not necissarily work here.

-GD727
Mmmm forbidden donut.
 
ExitRow
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Thu Aug 22, 2002 6:10 am

Prisons in the US are overcrowded. One way of alleviating the problem is to stop incarcerating petty pot smokers and pot dealers on "Three Strikes" laws. Save jail cells for "real" criminals (like Kenneth Lay). A pot dealer goes into prison a hippie, comes out a jaded, hardened criminal. Yeah, real smart policy.

The war on "drugs" is one instigated and stroked by hypocritical puritans that only affects the middle and lower class. (Do you think the wealthy have trouble getting weed?)

A pot dealer is morally equivalent to Spuds MacKenzie and Camel Joe as far as I am concerned. Why is one okay and not the other? They are both shilling a narcotic. Is pot more addictive and more harmful than cigarettes? Does pot kill untold tens of thousands due to violence and intoxicated driving? No. Pot makes you lazy and fat. God forbid!

Legislators, drop the leash and legalize recreational pot use you morons!
 
jessman
Posts: 1457
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Thu Aug 22, 2002 6:51 am

Europe is completley different from the US, what works there does not necissarily work here.

Not really; people are people no matter where you go. Human nature does not change.

Legalizing drugs would put the street dealer out of business by making the afore-mentioned drugs easily available in coffee shops, speciality and liquor stores, and corner markets around the country; instead of every street corner, intersection, and High School in the country. The price to manufacture the product would go down, but if we attached some nice big taxes to the product the street price could stay relatively unchanged. Smart folks wouldn't start; and normal folks would try to quit, the taxes on the products could go toward treatment centers, health care, and 12 step programs like taxes on cigarettes and beer already do.

For several years of my life I watched my father slowly destroy himself with one particular drug. When he used this drug he got mean, and paranoid. Once while under the influence he had to be restrained by my mom and his friends before he picked a fight with a police officer who was outside. When he used more of this drug his speech became slurred, and he would sometimes do crazy things like urinate on the street in public. The drug would make him forget the things that he did. When he was clean he knew in his mind that the drug would destroy him by rotting his internal organs and his brain, but he was hooked. The drug? Alcohol.

He was lucky; in our society this is behavior that is tolerated, and when he came to the point that he was going to lose his family and his job, he got help. He's been clean and sober going on 8 years now. He doesn't want to see a return of prohibition, and neither do I. It doesn't help anything.

There are already laws against disorderly conduct, public intoxication, theft, murder, driving under the influence of mind altering substances, disturbing the peace, indecent exposure, and any nasty thing you can say that illegal drugs cause. Making more laws restricting the drugs is just redundant and unneccessary.

Finally; the reason I think more politicians aren't against drug laws is because the powerful people make a killing in the drug trade. Prices are sky high. The current fight on drugs profits the highest people on the chain immensely, so they make a few contributions to politicians campaigns to keep the status quo. Beyond that the biggest players in this game won't be caught. Why? Because they have the authorities paid off; They have the best lawyers and judges on their client list; and if they were ever indicted they have all the dirty work done by others, so they can claim ignorance. Most of them have legitimate businesses to launder their money; popular restaurants; apartment complexes; real estate. They're the influential people in your community.

Sorry, guys, the war on drugs is a farce. In Amsterdam you can go into a coffee shop and buy marijuana as easy as buying a french roast. It's not a big deal because they don't make it a big deal.

BTW Caffeine is a drug too  Smile
 
Hepkat
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Thu Aug 22, 2002 7:12 am

How do you know demand will disapear?

Because most people start drugs because they're not allowed to. When I started college, I and other freshmen drank ourselves silly from Thursday night all the way through Sunday morning. Why? Because it was bad. Because we weren't supposed to. The minute I turned 21 I had absolutely no more desire to get wasted just for the fun of it. Indeed, turning 21 took all the thrill out of getting wasted. It's the exact same with illegal drugs. The minute they become legal and easily available over the counter, I guarantee we'll see a decrease in usage.

Do you think people buy drugs because they want to break the law? Of course not, they buy them to get high.

See the above response. Your arguments don't fit what we know about human psychology.

Most drug dealers are crazy bastards that will gun down anyone who rips them off, so drugs DO cause crime.

These black and white views benefit absolutely no one and are so far from the truth. First of all, most drug dealers are trying to make money in a lucrative business kept in place by soaring prices and high demand as a result of prohibition. Crime is a natural consequence of this. If drugs were to be legalized and sold in a controlled environment, drug dealers would go out of business overnight. There would be no more wars to fight as anyone could easily go to the store and buy what they need. So you see GD727, it is prohibition that's indirectly responsible for drugs crime, not the drugs itself.

Europe is completley different from the US, what works there does not necissarily work here.

As someone pointed out before, people are people. The Europeans are just smarter as they've realized fighting this war is a losing battle. In the Netherlands there's no corner drug dealings, their jails aren't crowded with drug offenders, because they've all been put out of business. The taxes the state makes from the sale of drugs are used to pay for treatment centers for the few that overdo it, JUST as we currently do with cigarettes and alcohol.

 
ExitRow
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Thu Aug 22, 2002 7:22 am

There are already laws against disorderly conduct, public intoxication, theft, murder, driving under the influence of mind altering substances, disturbing the peace, indecent exposure, and any nasty thing you can say that illegal drugs cause. Making more laws restricting the drugs is just redundant and unneccessary.

EXACTLY Jessman. That is a point most people forget to consider. All marijuana laws do is punish responsible users. Irresponsible users that commit the crimes above should be convicted. Why is it okay to responsibly use alcohol and not pot? I just don't get it. Good, responsible people are having their lives ruined over such archaic legislation. Need a good example? Read this
 
jessman
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Thu Aug 22, 2002 11:49 am

That article made me want to make a new thread on a different subject. I think I will.
 
KAL_LM
Posts: 492
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Thu Aug 22, 2002 4:49 pm

Just to inject my 2 cents worth...

The War on Drugs has proven itself to be more a war on people. It has led to the massive militarism of police forces (SWAT teams and other paramilitary units in law enforcement), the imprisonment of thousands of minor offenders who need treatment rather than jail time, the destruction of our inner cities, police brutality, drive-by shootings, institutionalized racism, overcrowded prisons and on and on. The worst of it is that those that are prosecuting this war are knee deep in it (anyone remember Iran-Contra and CIA drug operations in South/Central America and Southeast Asia?). Has this reduced the flow or use of drugs? Not in the least, and now we find that it is easier for teens to get pot than cigarettes or alcohol(that took a rocket scientist to figure out...).

There seems to be a solution to it all, it isn't pretty but it could address the issues and symptoms of the problem.

1. Treat drug addiction as a public health problem and wield the proper resources to treat it as such. Get the people off the junk and cure them of the addiction. This will never happen because it is far easier to throw people in jail than to help them deal with their demons. And besides, with more people in jail, those prison industries just keep on going (aren't a substantial sector of Chinese factories run by convict labor? Is that where we are headed?) Yeah, there is a large risk of relapses but a main reason of that is that there is no alternative or support for those in the healing process. This leads to the second idea.

2. Spread the wealth. What I mean is that there needs to be adequate well paying jobs that allow for people to live a decent life, giving them the opportunities that are so often withheld from those who are on the road to recovery. Address the economic concerns where a person believes that dealing drugs is the only way out by giving them resources and education to realize a life beyond selling drugs.

3. Prosecute the "management". Law enforcement seems to only go after low-tier, nickel and dime dealers, not the ones that are at the root of the operations. Cut off the head and the body will die, take out the suppliers and "management" and while it will not fix the problem it is a step away from the current situation.

4. Legalize some drugs. Some drugs should not be legalized, ever. They are too dangerous, too destructive, too addictive to be played with. For those using them, we have treatment (see above). For drugs like pot, legalize it. Grow it, sell it, and tax the hell out of it to pay for the rest of programs. Put it where it belongs, in the same restricted ideals as nicotine and alcohol. And if it comes down to legalizing other drugs, tax the hell out of them as well. Make it so hard to get ahold of them that it is not worth it.

Before the Harrison Act of 1937, there wasn't a drug problem in America. Of course there wasn't crack and multi-national drug cartels, but people weren't high all the time. The War on Drugs does not have 1 easy solution. It will take time, money and effort to fix the drug problem. The problem is that many with the power to affect positive change are too concerned with being "soft on crime" or "too liberal" or "easy on druggies" to work together with groups who want a positive change. It doesn't help that our conservative government, beholden to big business, law enforcement and the conservative right would rather imprison that treat. It's a big problem sin;t going to go away until the attitude changes from punishment to healing.

Sorry for the soapbox, but I had to get it out.

regards,
Tom
is that a light at the end of the tunnel or just a train?
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Fri Aug 23, 2002 12:39 pm

Food for thought: Alcohol was relegalized with the fall of prohibition. Drunk Driving is one of the leading causes of death for drivers.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
jessman
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 1:11 pm

RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Sun Aug 25, 2002 6:16 am

Drunk driving has been a problem since before the automobile. People still drove drunk during prohibition with bathtub gin or bootleg whiskey. My great grandfather was a bootlegger; he ran a still in central Kentucky.

People currently also drive while under the influence of marijuana, crack, speed, or cold medicine. There are already laws prohibiting driving under the influence of these substances.
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Sun Aug 25, 2002 12:24 pm

The point is, Alcohol causes problems. From drunk driving, to violence. Allowing drugs that make you hyper-aggressive would be just as bad. Taxes already have to pay for the effects of alcohol. Why add other drugs to the mix?

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
jessman
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 1:11 pm

RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Sun Aug 25, 2002 12:49 pm

So would you be an advocate of reinstating prohibition?
 
AMRAAM
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 6:02 pm

RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Sun Aug 25, 2002 1:04 pm

The war on drugs is a complete joke I don't care what anyone says! This so called war....... we've been getting our ass kicked from the very beginning. About time for a major change.
 
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STT757
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RE: Should We Stop The 'War On Drugs'?

Sun Aug 25, 2002 1:21 pm

Lets clear a big myth,

Prisons are not full of Pot smokers or minor Marajuana dealers, possesion of Marajuana is not a fealony but a mis-demeanor. When you get into huge quantities with the clear intent to distribute (ie lots and lots of pot divided up into many bags of the exact same weight).

When people start selling the huge amounts of Marajuana that would require jail they are usually also packing guns, also many folks sell marajuana just to support their cocaine and heroin habits.
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