EGGD
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Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Sun Sep 01, 2002 8:14 pm

Hi folks,

Again and again and again I see this stupid pattern emerging. It seems the best explanation that alot of people can come up with to justify some of the USA's actions, or the actions THEY believe that the US should take, is they same old story. It seems that, the USA is now 'allowed' to do anything it wants, because their countrymen were killed in a terrorist attack. Sometimes I feel as if we are losing control of democracy because its ok to do something that was previously unacceptable, because someone attacked the USA.

What did the UK do when the Omagh bomb killed people in Northern Ireland? We sure didn't handle it in the way that the US with the WTC attacks. Granted its not on the same scale, but that shouldn't make a difference. I don't know the intimate details about the NI conflicts, but from what i've heard, American's and American businesses have helped fund the IRA at times, but what have we done about that?

I just think that, if you want to justify what you want doing, or what your country wants doing, you can't just fall back under the same excuse. Its wearing a bit thin and I don't think that everything is ok to do just because your country was attacked by terrorists.

Yup, I did write this just because of the German expedite story recently posted, and Alpha 1's reply. I still respect Alpha 1 because he sometimes has good ideas, and I can see his way of thinking. But I don't see why Europeans should have to follow everything that the USA wants or says just because we are allies and the USA lost their citizens to terrorism.

grrr.
 
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Sun Sep 01, 2002 8:26 pm

Oh Great another thread on how much better you people are than us. Please less than 50 a day!
 
galaxy5
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Sun Sep 01, 2002 8:30 pm

right. we should just sit back and take it like a man i guess. then when it happens again we should just sit back and complain to the UN. then when it happens again we should whine a little more right?
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
go canada!
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Sun Sep 01, 2002 8:40 pm

"What did the UK do when the Omagh bomb killed people in Northern Ireland? We sure didn't handle it in the way that the US with the WTC attacks. Granted its not on the same scale, but that shouldn't make a difference. I don't know the intimate details about the NI conflicts, but from what i've heard, American's and American businesses have helped fund the IRA at times, but what have we done about that?"

No clearly you dont. the usa has clamped down on fundraising. as ive said before the problem is that you get collectors in boston asking people in the street for money for a poor irish war widow whos husband has been killed by the british army. Americans have realised that this isnt the case.

You cant equate the omagh bombing to an al-queda attack. It was done by a fringe group, the real ira. We didnt need the same response because its a small group, instead we hunted them down because northern ireland is under british control and we have good relations with ireland.We didnt laucnh a military attack on ireland because its not their fault, they didnt aid the terrorists, they hunt them down just as much as we do.

Al-queda is different, the taliban refused, totally refused to hand over bin laden or any member of al-queda. Al-queda has terrorists training camps, well had, they are now destroyed throughout afghanistan.

The real ira doesnt.

when an american launched a terrorist attack, he was arrested ant tried, because he was one person. when a small republican group attacks, we hunt them down, but its different when you have a world wide organisation plotting the down fall of the western way of life.

if a person operating on his own devices came from say, france or china or jordan and went to america and blew up a building, you wouldnt see america suddendly bombing france would you?

It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
EGGD
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Mon Sep 02, 2002 12:41 am

Uh ok, seems the 3 people who replied to the thread misunderstood what I was trying to say. I agree with the war on terrorism, I agree with alot of things that the USA does, but it seems that some people think that everything can be justified because of the loss of life on sept. 11th. I don't think thats right...
 
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Mon Sep 02, 2002 12:49 am

such as what? if your talking about the action against al-queda and the taliban of course its justified, everyone says that. If your talking about iraq then action is justified against saddam hussien, not the iraqi people not because of 9/11 but because he is in breach of 12 un security council resoltuions and has brokern the terms of the gulf war ceasefire. Action against saddam has been going on for a decade, bombing raids on baghdad have happened under repubilican and democrat presidents.

America hasnt just decided to take action all of a sudden, it took action in kosovo and the balklans, ever since the cold war its always taken action to protect itself and the western world.

with or without 9/11, action against iraq would happen, 9/11 is serving as a reminder that if u dont do anything u will get hit.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Mon Sep 02, 2002 1:01 am

I agree with the war on terrorism, I agree with alot of things that the USA does, but it seems that some people think that everything can be justified because of the loss of life on sept. 11th. I don't think thats right...

EGGD, instead of bitching, give some examples? What EXACTLY pisses you off here?

If you're just going to turn this into a "Europe is mature, and the US immature" war, then you can cease it right now. Many Americans think Europe is losing touch with reality when it comes to a lot of things, and obviously Europe is feeling the same way about the US-there have been several stories in newspapers recently about US citizens being verbally abused by people in Europe because they don't like US policies.

In the end, the US is repsonsible for the US, and its citizens-not to how the Socialist Leaning EU feels about it.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Mon Sep 02, 2002 1:18 am

More's the pity.. " and its citizens-not to how the Socialist Leaning EU feels about it", €urope is not socialist leaning. For shame

EGGD, how do you mean about the USA using 11 September 2001 as an excuse? The war on Iraq?
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EGGD
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Mon Sep 02, 2002 1:29 am

I'll reply when I'm feeling better, tonight (hopefully)..

In the meantime, heres something that pisses me off more: Singapore_air - stop saying €urope, thats probably even more annoying!
 
NoUFO
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Mon Sep 02, 2002 3:05 am

EGGD: I agree with the war on terrorism, I agree with alot of things that the USA does, but it seems that some people think that everything can be justified because of the loss of life on sept. 11th. I don't think thats right...

Alpha_1: EGGD, instead of bitching, give some examples? What EXACTLY pisses you off here?

First and foremost: EGGD has never been an U.S.-basher here on the forums nor is he saying the U.S. should just sit back. Rember the UK (as well as France, Canada, Germany and other countries) continue to support U.S. troops in Afghanistan. Some comments are pretty harsh - as if some people here achieve a lower consciousness whenever the U.S. is criticized.
That said, I partially agree with Alpha_1. Maybe EGGD should have come with some examples.
On the other hand: Dan mentioned why he made up his mind to start this topic and it is not very hard to see that this has something to do with the Iraq.

Here are more examples:
A number of journalists said, they could no longer publish critical reports in the U.S. At least one tv-jounalist was fired because of his (still moderate but critical) point of view. Free speech? In terms of what the USSR called "free speech" maybe.

Some people are detained in the U.S. without having access to lawyers or relatives. This clearly violates international (and U.S.) rules.

And then there is another point. The U.S. fed the Taliban to contain Russia during the cold war, they fed Saddam Hussein (and it is likely they even provided the targeting data Hussein used for a poison gas attack against Iran) and a couple of years later they force their european allies to join a war against those despots. Reagan once said: "Saddam Hussein may be a bestial despot, but he is our despot."
(America's heart is big but not clear.)

Regards,
NoUFO
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aa61hvy
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Mon Sep 02, 2002 3:31 am

EGGD hey its a sensitive time right now, just keep some of your opinions to yourself. not everyone voices what they are thinking.
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dc863
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Mon Sep 02, 2002 3:42 am

EGGD I'll spare you my rant that I was going to throw your way. You must like being a punching bag for everyone else son.
 
flight152
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Mon Sep 02, 2002 3:48 am

EGGD hey its a sensitive time right now, just keep some of your opinions to yourself.

Oh Pulease. If that was the case, he shouldn't have started this thread.
 
gkirk
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Mon Sep 02, 2002 5:03 am

Dan, you make some good points.
Some of the immature responses here is funny to read, as they have obviously misinterpreted your points of view.
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apathoid
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Mon Sep 02, 2002 5:26 am

"We shall make no distinction between the terroists and those that harbor them..." GW

Time to bomb EGGD's house I guess.

 Insane
 
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STT757
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Mon Sep 02, 2002 5:51 am

I think claiming US businessneses are funding the IRA is way off the wall, I can make a better argument that European and UK businesses are funding HAMAS, Alqaeda etc. But im not going there.

Our European Allies had no problem twisting President Clinton's arm into sending US troops into Kosovo when there was no UN mandate or iminent threat to the rest of Europe from Milosivic . The majority of US citizens opposed such military participation in domestic European affairs ,which hurt our relationship with Russia and China after a mistaken bombing of their belgrade embassy.

The Country of Afghanistan was not responsible for the 9-11 attacks, International terrorist cells who were being hosted by the Taliban regime commited the 9-11 attacks. The US took down the Taliban leadership and is presently mopping up various cells remaining in Afghanistan.

This is only a first step, US forces are working in the Philipines and other areas where Alqaeda is know to have operatives. US forces are "island hopping" (to quote a WWII phrase) in persuit of terrorists who threaten US security, and under International law the US has every right to go into "hot persuit" of international criminals.

The debate in the US is whether or not the Iraqi Government presents a "clear and present danger" to US security, and if so how should we respond. It's obvious that Europeans do not feel this danger from Iraq, on the contrary many would like to do business with Iraq. In the US the Ameircan public has voiced it's opinion that they feel the threat of Iraq and their weapons of mass destruction joining forces with criminal groups of such inhumanity like Al Qaeda is real and warrants imediate action

So it's unrealastic to let European views dominate the US debate on Iraq because they obvious have less to lose should Iraq develope into Nuclear state that supports terrorist groups who want war with the US.

The question of Iraq is for the US to decide since we are the ones who are threatened, and would be the ones to act (alone if need be).

No journalists have been fired, no American citizens are being denied due process of the courts. There are many Alqaeda combatants who are being held in various locations, but under International treaty the US is not obligated to do anything with them until the hostilities cease.
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NoUFO
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Mon Sep 02, 2002 6:57 am

STT757: Finally someone who is not drooling and remains to be fair. Thank you.

Our European Allies had no problem twisting President Clinton's arm into sending US troops into Kosovo when there was no UN mandate or iminent threat to the rest of Europe from Milosivic.

Partially true. Before troops were sent there was an UN mandate. It was the first time since WW2 German troops were engaged in war and a mandate was a must-have. It is true that the U.S. hesitated a long time and called a war against the Serbs "not doable". later Mrs Albright was the major force behind sending troops - not that I criticize that. Anyway, there was an UN mandate ..

,which hurt our relationship with Russia and China after a mistaken bombing of their belgrade embassy.

... but not for bombing China's embassy.  Big grin

The US took down the Taliban leadership and is presently mopping up various cells remaining in Afghanistan

It is not only the U.S. and we are not discussing Afghanistan here.

The debate in the US is whether or not the Iraqi Government presents a "clear and present danger" to US security, and if so how should we respond. It's obvious that Europeans do not feel this danger from Iraq,

Everyone sees the danger. The question is: How shall we face this danger. The loud thinking of the U.S. administration is one way but maybe not the best.
And please keep in mind that Europe is closer to the Middle-East. A large number of Muslims and Arabs are living here and it is not unlikely that an armed conflict would affect Europe more than the U.S.

on the contrary many would like to do business with Iraq.

Ahem, to the contrary of American companies of course ...

No journalists have been fired,

Not counting Bill Maher for example. Maher characterized U.S. military actions as "cowardly." I refuse to agree but this opinion should not lead into taking out an office.

no American citizens are being denied due process of the courts.

It is not only judge Damon J. Keith's opinion that secret hearings should be opened. A non-public process may be justified but those arrested should at least be allowed to contact lawyers.

Regards,
NoUFO

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Alpha 1
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Mon Sep 02, 2002 11:52 am

On the other hand: Dan mentioned why he made up his mind to start this topic and it is not very hard to see that this has something to do with the Iraq.

EGGD, how do you mean about the USA using 11 September 2001 as an excuse? The war on Iraq?

Jesus H. Christ-NOTHING IS GOING ON IN IRAQ!!! WHAT "WAR" ARE YOU REFERRING TO?? Amazing!! There is no invasion underway; no carpet-bombing, no missiles flying to Baghdad. It's AMAZING how worked up some quarters of the world are over somthing that hasn't happened to a nation that has, over the last 20 years, started 2 major conflicts!!! Until there's a reason to bitch about an attack on Iraq, stop bitching about nothing!
 
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Mon Sep 02, 2002 6:58 pm

Alpha 1
Well, your president is talking as there is already war going on. If Bush says war is the only solution... But I'm pretty sure that EGGD is talking not only about the way the USA deals with Iraq, there are pretty more examples.

Only 51% of the Americans would support an attack on Iraq, last December 70% would have. Wonder how many of the know where Iraq is and how the people over there are ...
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Mon Sep 02, 2002 7:08 pm

maybe he means the way when anything in the aviation industry gets cut/goes bankrupt it is blamed on the events that happened on the 11th Sept 2001, which I think is not true in many cases & is just used as an umbrella for any blame. Case in point, Ansett going under, but that was nothing to do with Sept 11.
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Alpha 1
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Mon Sep 02, 2002 10:15 pm

But I'm pretty sure that EGGD is talking not only about the way the USA deals with Iraq, there are pretty more examples.

Then I'd like to hear them. It's all well and good to say there are "pretty more examples", but when you don't elaborate, then it seems pretty hollow.

And Mx_5boy, it tells me something about your character when an airline going out of business distresses you more than the murder of 3000 people.
 
KROC
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Mon Sep 02, 2002 10:38 pm

Please stop acting like 9-11 has become the be all/end all excuse for everything. It's as tiring as those that use the 9-11 events for personal gain.
 
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STT757
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Tue Sep 03, 2002 12:44 am

"Not counting Bill Maher for example. Maher characterized U.S. military actions as "cowardly." I refuse to agree but this opinion should not lead into taking out an office."

Bill Maher is a comedian, not a journalist. His show was not renewed by ABC, he was not cancelled. He went on to do many more shows until the contract with ABC ended, happens all the time in the tv biz.

He was not critisizing the current US response, he was critisizing the response Former President Clinton took in '98 against Al Qaeda by "launching crusie missles into the night" without knowing if they hit UBL.

No one has ever gotten fired for critisizing Bill Clinton, in fact there are many folks who's whole career revolves around critisizing that guy.
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NoUFO
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:12 am

STT757: so, Bill Maher is a comedian. Then a comedian, not a journalist, was fired, because in his comedy he criticized military actions. Sounds much better ..
You said Mahers contract ended. This is - of course - what ABC says. Maybe they are right, maybe not.

As for "true" journalists: they seem to having a hard time getting their critical voices published (sources: American guest writers published in Die Zeit, Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Sueddeutsche Zeitung - definitely no anti-American papers).

No one has ever gotten fired for critisizing Bill Clinton, ...

I didn't even mention the Clinton administration!? Dan said that 9/11 was frequently used as an excuse and I provided some examples. Clinton was before 9/11.

Regards,
NoUFO
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EGGD
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:43 am

Right ok..

It seems obvious that, anything that is said that might just be an opposition opinion of the majority (the vocal majority at least), is obviously going to be jumped upon by many... I would have thought that there could be at least a decent argument to be had here, in fact not an argument at all, just...

In fact, your right. I don't know what I was thinking. I should just keep my opinion to myself, because it is wrong.

I really find it hard to find the effort now, to find some examples to backup my argument (yeah.. thats obviously why my english test scores are so bad right now), its obvious that there are enterpretations to everything that i've misunderstood that would make more sense..

maybe he means the way when anything in the aviation industry gets cut/goes bankrupt it is blamed on the events that happened on the 11th Sept 2001, which I think is not true in many cases & is just used as an umbrella for any blame. Case in point, Ansett going under, but that was nothing to do with Sept 11.

yes... but i'm looking at this broader than just aviation, there is no particular point that I can put my finger on right now. We could blame the downturn in aviation totally on 9/11, but since it was predicted anyway that would be false. But i'm not talking about blaming everything that has happened on 9/11, but what might happen, like that because of those attacks we are morally allowed to something that would be otherwise unacceptable.

"We shall make no distinction between the terroists and those that harbor them..." GW

Time to bomb EGGD's house I guess.


Apathoid - I find it hard (as per bloody usual) to interpret what you are trying to say here. Are you seeing me as a sympathizer to Al Queada and other terrorist organizations? I'm not sympathizing...

What I am trying to say is, and I still haven't thought about this enough... Actions can be justified, but these people, terrorists, whatever, should have been dealt with when a threat first appeared. It seems that only now the USA seem to be taking action against these people just because they hurt them in some way (killing innocent people, destroying a symbol of american pride). What about the situation in Afghanistan? Surely, if the WTC were still standing today, so would the Al Queada empire.

I'm pretty sure what I just said was completely different to what I meant in the original post.. oh well. I'm off to go look more into why there is going to surely be a war against Iraq now..
 
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STT757
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Tue Sep 03, 2002 2:12 am

NoUFO

The comments that Bill Maher made about US military action being "cowardly" was made in reference to President Bill Clinton sending Cruise missles into Afghanistan to kill UBL, Maher was critisizing that act saying if they had done it right and not cowardly then 9-11 would not have happened.
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heavymetal
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Tue Sep 03, 2002 5:30 am

Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

No.

Please stop treating 9/11 like some harmless IRA car bombing in an empty parking lot.

Ask yourself the UK's reaction had at any time over the past 50 years the IRA committed a single act of terrorism that took over three thousand British lives. And you come up with? Some holier-than-thou diatrabe on liberty and democracy? An intellectual step backwards to examine values and relations? A few jailings and some podium-pounding speaches for show?

If you came up with those conclusions, my suggestion is to get out and get some fresh air because your computer monitor is beginning to affect your brain.

Europeans continue to 'not get it.' You walk around wearing "long history with terror acts" like some smug badge of honor, chiding the US for its' reaction to being initiated into a sad club. But you need to be reminded constantly there is no one "peacetime" act that compares to 9/11 in modern European history ... all such acts in Europe have happened in wars between peoples. And that is what we're in, my friend. What you call an "excuse" we call "war". It's our Lusitania.

Count your blessings and sit this one out. That is, until they come for you next.
 
jcxp15
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Tue Sep 03, 2002 7:30 am

The Europeans just don't understand us...

They don't understand that without us, so many things would be so much different for them. For example, we (the US) do not need the oil from the Middle East, yet we continue to buy from there, why?, because if we stopped prices would skyrocket for the European markets.
EGGD, I think I see what you're getting at. You're unhappy that your government hasn't taken the same action the US is taking when it came to IRA bombings and all. How dare you compare an IRA bombing with the attacks that took place on 9/11. The only 9/11 excuses I'm tired of hearing are the ones which seek to gain from the terrorist attacks. War on Iraq would have been inevitable anyway anyway. Europeans just don't understand that they can't have it both ways.
Please don't forget that the US is a hell of a lot bigger than most European countries combined. The US taking one European countries side is a lot different than one European country taking the US' side. Sure, we need them, but they need us a lot more when they want to make a move. Blair has the right idea in this, and I'm happy to see him trying to rally support for the US and an attack on Iraq.
 
kaitakfan
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Tue Sep 03, 2002 8:26 am

Thank god for people like Heavy Metal and Jcxp, that step up and talk since in silly little threads like this. EGGD no offense but I think your thought process is somewhat off regarding 9/11 attacks and some petty IRA car bombings. As Heavy metal pointed out, 4 air planes being hijacked, a massive AMERICAN icon of 220 combined floors, an attack on our nations defense headquaters and nearly 3,000 American souls lost is a bit more catastrophic then a few people getting savagely killed in a car bombing.

Its alarming you think you and your history of small, attacks from IRA thugs is up to par of what happened here in America almost a year ago. Sure they both are a shame, but you fail to see a huge difference between the two disasters. IRA Bombings in your home land really have no place to be compared to September 11th 2001's nightmare. Both terrorist attacks are on a different level.

Now EGGD as you said before, if the desperately missed World Trade Center was still standing, and 3000 American's would still be living strong... So would Bin Laden and his bands of goon's at Al-Qaeda. I think your right. Because the simple concept of the "squeaky wheel gets the grease" really holds true to the case over in the Middle east with Al-Qaeda don't you think? Sadly it was a big lesson to be learned on 9/11. However it is really uncalled for to have other people, ESPECIALLY foreign nationals speak down about what our country is doing for the world and our own good and well being. Some may disagree, but ya know what I say to that... "What is their country doing to help the problems!" Bottom line is give solutions to the problem not excuses.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Tue Sep 03, 2002 10:47 am

Actions can be justified, but these people, terrorists, whatever, should have been dealt with when a threat first appeared.

A monday-morning quarterback, with 20/20 hindsight, is always 100% correct, EGGD.

And JetService, don't concern yourself too much with Swissgabe. He's convinced evey American is an asshole, or dumb, or both; he's convinced most can't find Canada on a map, you know. He's one of these "I'm superior to you" people, who, in essence, is very clueless.

Leave him in his little world.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Tue Sep 03, 2002 7:52 pm

Sometimes some of you yanks are really hard to understand.  Big thumbs up Prices for oil would skyrocket in Europe if the US stopped to import oil? Hello? Since when does higher demand cause lower prices? I thought the U.S. economy would benefit from oil import because they make fuel cheaper in the U.S.

Anyway, I'd like to ask everyone here to pause and reflect upon how 9/11 may have changed ... hmm common grounds .. feelings .. all-day life. Please note: No one here said he/she would oppose to war on terror, and no one here started an attempt to playing down what happened in the U.S. last year. Nevertheless, quite a number of responses to Dan's original post show sort of a reflex, some people act like Pavlov's dogs - and unwillingly prove him right.
I see that the trauma of 9/11 continues to affect most Americans (and not 'only' the Americans) but (for most of us Europeans) it is sometimes weird to to see how some Americans are dealing with the trauma. I think it is a combination of national pride, fear, hatred and black/white schemata. Those arrogant allocations of guilt, sentimental patriotic fuss and this be-glad-we-are-around attitude - can get on one's nerves.

Regards,
NoUFO
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paulc
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Tue Sep 03, 2002 8:38 pm

It would be good if people remembered that there were not just americans killed in the 9/11 attacks - people from many nationalities were killed.

9/11 is the biggest act of terrorism in US history - it is also the largest in UK and probably other nations history as wel in terms of lives lost.

The USA will continue to get the political support of the UK but it may not get as much public support.

English First, British Second, european Never!
 
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Tue Sep 03, 2002 10:00 pm

Im sorry, i really dont mean to be rude bu EGGD what is your point, you havent said it yourself-why is 9/11 an excuse and for what??????

"Please stop treating 9/11 like some harmless IRA car bombing in an empty parking lot. "

thats uncalled for, it doesnt matter whether one person is killed in a terror atatck or 3000 thousand its still a terror attack. before you go there, im pro-american but i wont stand for lectures on terrorism to the people of northern ireland, the uk and the irish rebupilic. The different between the ira and al-queda as ive said before is that you dont have a country eg afghanistan backing the ira. Both the irish and the british fight the ira bjut we dont need to bomb a country because we can arrest the subjects. In americas case you cant arrest bin laden nor negiotatet with a terror group hellbent on your destruction, it was the usa only course of action. Just because the british dont bomb dublin doesnt mean to say we arent affected.

harmless ira? get a life.That is an insult to everyone who died in 25 years of the troubles and its an insult to everyone whos ever died from a terror attack.

It is a total cheek to attack your number one ally, the uk, we are the ones who pick up americas rubbish to deal with, we are the ones who sent in troops first to afghanistan, we arethe only who shared intelligence with you, who goverment flew around the world getting support for you when we could ahve stayed at home and rebuilt our health service, but we knew what you have gone through so dont ever dare forget our help because without us, bush would be alone in the world.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Tue Sep 03, 2002 10:14 pm

"Please stop treating 9/11 like some harmless IRA car bombing in an empty parking lot. "

thats uncalled for, it doesnt matter whether one person is killed in a terror atatck or 3000 thousand its still a terror attack. before you go there, im pro-american but i wont stand for lectures on terrorism to the people of northern ireland, the uk and the irish rebupilic. The different between the ira and al-queda as ive said before is that you dont have a country eg afghanistan backing the ira. Both the irish and the british fight the ira bjut we dont need to bomb a country because we can arrest the subjects. In americas case you cant arrest bin laden nor negiotatet with a terror group hellbent on your destruction, it was the usa only course of action. Just because the british dont bomb dublin doesnt mean to say we arent affected.

harmless ira? get a life.That is an insult to everyone who died in 25 years of the troubles and its an insult to everyone whos ever died from a terror attack.

It is a total cheek to attack your number one ally, the uk, we are the ones who pick up americas rubbish to deal with, we are the ones who sent in troops first to afghanistan, we arethe only who shared intelligence with you, who goverment flew around the world getting support for you when we could ahve stayed at home and rebuilt our health service, but we knew what you have gone through so dont ever dare forget our help because without us, bush would be alone in the world.


Thank you Go Canada for that response, how refreshing! You stole it right from my mouth.

Ignorance is rife in this forum.

In Arsene we trust!!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Tue Sep 03, 2002 11:20 pm

Those arrogant allocations of guilt, sentimental patriotic fuss and this be-glad-we-are-around attitude - can get on one's nerves.

Too friggin' bad for you, then. Maybe if you were actually over here that day, and felt the almost physical presence of danger and horror that was so palpable in the air and on the streets, you're nerves would be a little more understanding.
 
heavymetal
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Tue Sep 03, 2002 11:42 pm

So now I'm getting lectured for lecturing a lecturer.

Let me repeat a fact: No one single event in the battle between Brits and Irish compares to 9/11. Not one. And yes, the numbers do matter. To say they don't would be to suggest the response would be uniform regardless of what had happened. I didn't see us invading Lebanon after the TWA hijacking. I certainly didnt see us taking over Libya after Pan Am 103.

It was not my intention to slight the Northern Ireland troubles. My response was based on my perception, not just on this forum but throughout the media, that Europeans have this opinion that because they've dealt with terrorism longer than the US, we should just butch up and not over react to the events of last year. And I'll say it again....you've had airport massacres, airplane bombings, car bombings, assasinations, train derailments, and any assorted variety of cowardly injuries visited upon you by terrorists. You have NOT had a day like 9/11.

I seem to recall an IRA bombing ten years or so ago in the office buildings in the Docklands of East London. If I remember correctly there was a warning phone call an hour or so beforehand, and yet still several people were killed. Suppose those bombings had brought down the office buildings filled with thousands of people? Would the story of Northern Ireland's troubles read much the same way today as it actually does?

And secondly, calm your dander regarding any insults I may have intended for the UK as a whole. Nowhere in my post does one exist. Your nation's response and loyalty to her ornrey offspring over the Atlantic in the days and weeks following the events of a year ago will go down in legend. Indeed, any cursory study of the perilous hours following the collapse of the last WTC towers will show that your Prime Minister became a defacto member of George Bush's inner circle. In the early hours Bush's hawkish advisors were screaming for immeadiate retribution....yet as a Washington Post expose' showed, he spent much of that first day on the phone with senior statesman Blair, who urged a thought out, less emotional pursuit of justice. His arguments won the day. So you see, we do have a history of taking at least some of your worldly advice.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Wed Sep 04, 2002 1:36 am

So you see, we do have a history of taking at least some of your worldly advice

Hmmm.......indeed you might do, but not some of your fellow countrymen on a.net they don't.

In Arsene we trust!!
 
kaitakfan
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Wed Sep 04, 2002 1:45 am

Arsenal, I agree with you that some of our "countrymen" on A.net dont seem to take much advice from Europe. But come on, has it not been a fact that its not the countrymen to worry about when taking advice from another nation? its our Nations leaders you should care about. After all those people in leadership are all you need to worry about. not hot headed people who take advice as a slap on the face. thats gonna happen from any nation from every walk of life.
 
Guest

RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Wed Sep 04, 2002 2:26 am

Apparently "9.11" has become a new word that equivalents to "Terrorism". So I'm not sure if this is an excuse.
 
GDB
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Wed Sep 04, 2002 3:51 am

The IRA exploded massive bombs in London in 1992/3, only good fortune prevented a massacre, also the case with the Manchester bomb in 1996.
Some 4000 killed since 1969, but that's misleading, in the early 70's the death rate was far higher, full-scale firefights were very common, with the IRA having their brand new US supplied M-16's.
They came close to wiping out the UK cabinet in the 1984 Brighton bomb.
But they avoided for the most part attacks on commercial aviation, cannot kill some Americans after all, the weapon/money supply might dry up. (There was a dip in support when an American was one of 6 killed in the 1983 Harrods bomb).
With a large Irish population in the UK, an attack likely to kill 1000's was a non-starter too.
Though home-made mortars fired from an abandoned vehicle with a timer mechanism was used against LHR's runways in 1994.
They were not into suicide attacks though, though the 1981 hunger strikers could be called that.
But still, rather more than 'harmless carpark bombs'. Idiot.
So no, not on the scale of Sept 11th, but we had to put up with the then NY mayor Ed Koch, some US politicians and Hollywood stars being pro-IRA.
But then an American once asked me 'is that Braveheart thing with the Scots still going on?'

 
heavymetal
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Wed Sep 04, 2002 3:59 am

Once again: You've never had a 9/11.

I'm not keen on getting into some morbid "my terror event's better than your terror event" pissing match, but look, GDB, how bitter you are after listing off only a decade of murderous terror action.

Roll that decade up into a couple of hours. And voila! You've got the present American psyche.

And mind your tounge...the "US" never supplied a goddamned thing to the IRA. If you have issues with a bunch of quacks frolicking in the Irish pubs of South Boston passing the hat for weapons, you're not alone. As a native Bostonian, I can tell you most of us think they're quacks too.
 
JetService
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Wed Sep 04, 2002 4:01 am

Arsenal, most of the 'advice' thrown our way is coming from people that despise us and our country. I'm not talking about you of course, but would you really expect us to listen to some of these folks? There's a big difference between friendly advice and utter contempt.

Alpha, Swissgabe amuses me more than bothers me. What DOES bothers me is having a post that was responding to a flamebait cheapshot deleted for being flamebait while the instigating post continues to sit there. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.............
"Shaddap you!"
 
747-451
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Wed Sep 04, 2002 4:34 am

Intersting how people forget it was not "just 9/11". First, It was 3000 murdered people creamated under my window. I wonder if you would feel the same if it under your window. Don't trivialize something which does not affect you in a way it affects us. It is nteresting how the EUers have the unmitigated gall to moralize us since it didn't happen to them.Secondly, EU appeasement won't stop terrorism, you actually need a "will" and a "spine" do do something about it as opposed to "live with it".

But then again, this is what I expect from a 13-15 year old who has no knowledge of what the real world is.



 
GDB
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Wed Sep 04, 2002 7:23 am

I'm afraid there were a lot of those 'quacks', and nothing was ever done about the NORAID fund raisers, almost no one believed they were 'raising money for the families of IRA prisoners'.
The IRA's standard weapon until Libya supplied AK-47s in the 90's was the M-16, the IRA were proud of the modern weapons brought for them by US citizens, not to mention M-60 machine guns stolen from a Boston National Guard Armoury, they were traced as they were all eventually captured.
Worse was the setting free of IRA suspects by US courts.
So maybe people should think before chucking insults when courts overseas don't break their own laws to suit the US, especially when the same nations are providing intelligence support, troops for the war on terrorism, as well as arresting seemingly genuine, important suspects.
It's not about comparing attacks, but terrorism is terrorism.
Go to Northern Ireland or to victims of bombs on the mainland and say it was just a few harmless car-park bombs.
I guess the Spanish are fortunate there is not a significant American-Basque community.
 
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STT757
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Wed Sep 04, 2002 7:34 am

" stolen from a Boston National Guard Armoury"

And how does this support the notion of US support for the IRA, Boston's full of Irish immigrants, some legal others are not. Anyone could have stolen those weapons.

You want supporters of Terrorism, go check out London and especially Hamburg. Terrorists have been operating from Hamburg since the bombing of Pan Am flight 103.

LA street gangs kill more in one year than the IRA has killed in 25, who cries for their families?

Where's the Jerry Adams of South Central Los Angeles?.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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STT757
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Wed Sep 04, 2002 7:36 am

I think the IRA and Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc are all the crap of the Earth.

Yet many of the folks posting on these boards slam one and are sympathetic to another, there should not be a double standard.

Israel needs to get out of the occupied territories and Britain should get out of Northern Ireland.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
toady
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Wed Sep 04, 2002 7:39 am

"Britain should get out of Northern Ireland."
Maybe you don't understand that Northern Ireland is part of Britain. Saying that Britain should get out of NI is as ludicrous as saying that America should get out of Hawaii.
 
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STT757
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:00 am

I don't see Hawaiins spitting on little Catholic girls on their way to school, and I don't see them car bombing LA either.

If you want to make a US-UK comparison you should use Puerto Rico, Puerto Rico is a part of the US but there's a group of terrorists there who want Puerto Rican independence. They tried to kill President Truman on a sidwalk in Washington DC (killing several Secret service agents), they bombed Laguardia airport, they've murder US sailors based in Puerto Rico and tried to force their way into Congress with bombs.

There's a good comparison between the IRA and Puerto Rican Nationalists, and a good argument for the US and Puerto Rico to go their separate ways as many feel the UK and Northern Ireland should.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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STT757
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:03 am

Funny you should mention Hawaii, ever notice the Union Jack is their flag (well almost).

Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
heavymetal
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RE: Please Stop Using 9/11 As An Excuse.

Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:04 am

The only Puerto Rican terrorist I know is Ron Bacardi.....whenever here's around I get bo.....

Never mind.

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