jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 9:57 am

I am so tired of hearing whiny greens, social dems, socialists, and liberals in Europe whine about their nation's support for the U.S.. Seriously, all things considered if it wasnt for U.S. action in Europe in WWII and especially in protecting Britain and France, you guys would have been goose-stepping into the 50's. The entire Jewish population of Europe would have been destroyed, and Europe definitely would not be the same today. Dont give the same old crap that it was an "allied" effort, sure it was, but without American involvement there is no doubt that London and eventually all of England would have eventually been taken by the Nazis. Not only that but the Marshall Plan effectively rebuilt Europe using American money. What would have happened if the U.S. had not instituted the Marshall Plan, well its fairly simple, Europe would still be 20 years behind. The Americans did the hard stuff in WW2...invading Italy, having to go through the most difficult beach heads in Normandie, not to mention pushing the Nazis all the way back to Berlin. Is there a reason why we had to do all the hard, death-defying tasks in Europe, yeah, because we knew that Britain and France wouldnt have been able to pull it off. Next time, you want to criticize the U.S.'s war policies in the present just imagine the extinction of an entire religion and a Western Europe that is 20 years behind everyone else. I dont care that individuals are against the U.S., I'm just pissed that these governments are still asking "What have you done for me?" Of course there are nations in Europe that actually value and like Americans, Norway, Greece, Poland, to name a few, but Europe has to realize that the U.S. bailed them out and that they still owe us for it, and the least the could do is at least support us as we try to dispose of a leader that has used chemical and biological weapons against his own people.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
Rai
Posts: 1697
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:12 pm

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 10:07 am

Of course there are nations in Europe that actually value and like Americans, Norway, Greece, Poland, to name a few

Actually, Greece has always had sour relations with the U.S. This is mostly because of the U.S.'s close relationship with Turkey.
 
kolobokman
Posts: 1112
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 5:32 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 10:07 am

Give me a date or a number, for how many more years MUST Europe support American war policies? What does it say in the contract?

I can neither confirm, nor deny above post
 
Westjet_737
Posts: 845
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 8:42 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 10:08 am

I dont want to start a huge war here, but the soviets did more to end WWII than the allies. The soviets got to berlin before the allies did, why do you think the country was divided up for so long?

The war in Western Europe, did nothing but take some of Hitlers troops away from the Eastern Front (Where the Nazis were defeated the hardest.

Im not going to even touch on the topic brought up. I just wish to provide the real historical facts.
 
Barcode
Posts: 666
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2001 10:20 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 10:08 am

Have you ever heard of paragraphs ? I'm told they make posts much easier to read and avoid the notion that you posess the grammatical capabilities of 50 monkeys banging away in a random fashion at 50 typewriters.

Now, simply because you guys were of assistance in a war that happened FIFTY odd years ago does not mean *I* ( who was not even born until 1981 ) should remain forever in your debt. The analogy is quite ridiculous - no one should be " obliged " to support someone if they fundementally disagree with the policy employed to carry something out.

I'm also in awe of your ability to predict what would have happened - " without a doubt " ... yes, I'm certain that you have an insight into an alternative timeline that us mere mortals evidently do not posess.

You wonder why some of us don't support you ? Well it is in your face opinions like this that get our backs up. Some of us don't care for this bragging and " your owe us " attitude ... it comes off as supercilious and entirely unecessary.

You also do not appear to be able to make the logical distinction between disagreeing with American POLICY and American PEOPLE. This may be difficult for you to comprehend, but try listening very carefully. I dislike the policies George Bush is implementing over Iraq and other things such as the environmental summit in South Africa. This is NOT a reflection on Americans personally, American culture or anything else. Yet, I am sick to death of people yelling " you're anti American !! " because I dared to express an opinion against a POLITICAL IDEALOGY.

Meanwhile, the tone that is apparent in your post just serves to reinforce the opinions of those you are protesting against ...
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 10:11 am

While I do agree with Jcs to some extent, I am not going to touch this thread anymore than I already have, because it is a ticking time bomb.

RUN!
 
JAT
Posts: 1064
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 4:45 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 10:25 am

What amazes me is the belief that the US aided Europe in the defeat of Hitler and after that the rebuilding, because they wanted something in return! I would think you would help a friend in need without any expectations, or not help him at all. Certainly, the US wasn't expecting a "gift" in return, were they?!?!?

It is much more honorable to help and not request anything in return. The way the ones you helped act, on their own, without pressure, after you have helped them, speaks volumes. If you pressure them it's cheap and petty, you are implying that the help in liberating Europe was just a business deal from which the US could reap benefits later, certainly that's what the idea appears to be here...

 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 12:14 pm

I do not believe Europe owes the U.S. anymore for World War II. 60 years of alliance and Friendship, and being on the front line in Europe during the Cold War has paid off any debt "owed" to the U.S. I do think, however, with the passing of time, there is not the appreciation of what the U.S. did during-and after-the war, to help Europe. It wasn't just the troops we sent, but the US truly became the "aresenal of democracy", with the armaments that were vital to defeat Hitler and Japan; it wasn't just winning the war that was important, but it was winning the peace afterwards, with the Marshall Plan and stopping the Soviet Union from advancing further west.

I don't believe there is enough historical appreciation by the generations that have come since the late 1960's for what the U.S. did to help Europe, but I can't subscribe to the belief that Europe owes the U.S. still.

I dont want to start a huge war here, but the soviets did more to end WWII than the allies.

I do not agree-it was a shared effort. The Western allies would not have have been able to invade Normandy and plow in from the west had the Red Army not neutralized much of the Wermacht in the East. Conversely, the Red Army probably would not have been able to inflict the damage on the Germans like they did had the the UK and US not bombed the living shit out of the Germans for 24/7 for like 3 years. The other side needed the other to succeed.

Give me a date or a number, for how many more years MUST Europe support American war policies?

What war policies are those, Kolobokman? And if you say Iraq, I'm going to reach through the World Wide Web and punch you in the nose!  Wink/being sarcastic There is no "war" in Iraq right now, so don't even go there?

Explain, will you?
 
lubcha132
Posts: 2642
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2001 10:37 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 12:19 pm

on one hand, we did rebuild a lot of europe (the DC3 i mean marshall plan)

but on the other hand, the people of europe are not the people of america and they have their own ideas.

but on the first hand, they do owe us big.

but on the other hand again, that doesn't necessarily mean full support on everything, money would be nice.
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 12:21 pm

WestJet: At the same time though, the Soviets werent just trying to get the Germans out of their front yard, they had aspirations of gaining land for the Soviet Union in the process of driving the Germans back to Berlin.

Barcode: Correcting grammar mistakes...the cry of the loser! Anyway, I am glad Tony Blair has stood up and done the right thing in supporting his best ally. He's no Margaret Thatcher, but he'll have to do. As for the British citizens themselves, well, they are starting to make the French look like a logical group of people. I could care less about your political beliefs, but now that you mention it, it sounds like you are another just young person of Europe who has been taught to believe that capitalism and "imperialism" is a sin against humanity, and that the U.S. is responsible for all of the ills in the world. Get off your high horse and realize that, in actuality, Britain was the most imperialistic nation (not America!) in the world during the early 1900s. Oh, yeah I forgot to include the fact that Europe couldnt do anything in Yugoslavia either, so the U.S. again had to be called in....Europe certainly wasnt against us then, and sadly when the next problem erupts in Europe the U.S. will most likely have to come in and help out. Europe is like the bratty kid of America, its only polite and friendly when it wants something. P.S.--did you like my use of paragraphs (Oh yeah, sorry, I'm just a dumb American. What would I know?).
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
Barcode
Posts: 666
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2001 10:20 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 12:31 pm

Errrrrr no, I just prefer to read things that are legible. My eyes start to glaze over when the text runs on and on - call it a short attention span.

No, I don't think the USA is responsible for everything that is wrong in the world: I simply disagree with the policy regarding Iraq - why is that an issue ? I'm not the one stating that I am better than anybody else merely because of my place of birth. I have no wish to brow beat others with proclomations of how wonderful Great Britain is, and how the rest of the world should thank us for certain things.

Doesn't that attitude strike you as a little ... condescending ? Whether it is true or not is besides the point - no one likes to hear a braggart.

As for the " dumb American " remark - you clearly have some insecurities, since if you read my post you will see I've not made a reference to such a thing. I suspect my hypothesis is correct as evidenced by your zealous rants on how great America is, and how the rest of the world owes you for events that happened fifty years ago.

If your reasoning is correct and not as fallacious as I suspect ... then you should also be paying slave reparations, as your ancestors had slaves in the early nineteenth century as well. It would be your responsibility to owe something to the descendants.

If you think otherwise, then you should also ask yourself why we need to feel a responsibility for events that happened in the past also. Your argument bears no relevance to the here and now and is logically flawed.

Please, continue ...
 
GDB
Posts: 12678
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 1:02 pm

Doh!
The UK is STILL paying off WW2 military aid, will be until 2003, only small now amounts though.
Before the US decided to enter WW2, nothing was for free, we were bankrupted in a matter of months, after that arms were paid for in overseas bases. (who's being 'imperialist' now?)
It was the UK who stood up to Hitler, alone between June 1940 and July 1941-when Russia was attacked.
The only NATO nation prepared to go all the way in Kosovo in 1999 was the UK, it wasn't needed in the end, but rules of engagement insisted by the US, to prevent casualties, made that operation a close run thing for a time.
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 1:24 pm

Basically, all I am saying is that countries such as the UK, should just be a little bit more supportive of U.S. efforts around the Europe. I could care less about European nations committing troops, although it would certainly be a welcome gesture, all I want is for Europe to "grin and bear it" (as Vladimir Putin has done with some of our policies), and just stop hanging the US out to dry.

If I am not mistaken, it was the English who started the slave trade as early as the 1600s. Slavery reparations in the US is actually just a blatantly racist idea and 95% of white Americans are against it. The reason why there is no relevance there is because the last of the slave owners and slaves died around a hundred years ago. Last time I checked, my grandfather, who fought for Europe's freedom is still alive.

As for the USA, its a great country, and in MY PERSONAL OPINION (please note: this is my personal opinion and I do not ask others to share it) the best in the world. I love Europe, all of the countries I have visited there are truly awesome (including Britain), but I dont think that I could ever live there for more than 6 months, it is just way too socialist in most places for my liking.

Just getting back on the soapbox one more time here; I feel that certain groups of Americans go to Europe and think that it will be like visiting Orlando. And they go over to Europe with an arrogant attitude and expect everyone to cater to their every whim. (I once saw a southern lady just bitch out a waiter in London because he didnt put enough ice in her drink...it made me sick). And that is why I have sent letters to my congressman asking that white-trash Americans should not be allowed to leave this country under any circumstances.  Big grin
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
Guest

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 1:37 pm

Whoa JCS, first off, I commend you for what you are saying, it takes balls to say that kind of stuff, but you are wrong when it comes to the UK

Basically, all I am saying is that countries such as the UK, should just be a little bit more supportive of U.S. efforts around the Europe

The UK is our GREATEST ALLY, there is no question about that. They have been supporting us as much as they can without becoming the 51st US State!

Unlike most of do nothing Europe, the UK stands by the US 100%. They were one of the first to send their condolences after 9/11 and they are a major player when it comes to the war on terror.
 
TWAL1011
Posts: 2318
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2003 12:39 pm

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 1:54 pm

Hmmm....I can see some of the logic in your reasoning, but I think this is perhaps a little uncalled for right now.

I'm not too happy with Germany's support of the US...France isn't really a factor (never was). However, GB is a great ally.

Will be interesting to see how this one pans out. Kinda suprised it's got a 3 star rating.
 
ILOVEA340
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 1999 9:49 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 2:46 pm

IMO the russians did much more to end WW2.
The USA could not have done it w/o russia. Russia most liekly could not have done it w/o the US but.... Just look at things like casualties, land taken, duration of fighting... The russians were a driving force... I couldn't imagine what would have happend had the US had to take Berlin.... I don't think they would have, sort of like main-land japan.
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 3:19 pm

Jcs17 - Tony Blair is no Margaret Thatcher.

Well thank God!

The rest of your post in nonsense by the way. Where the hell did you get the idea the UK was anti-US.

By the way, I am absolutely sick and tired of the American people for not recognising the fact that the US basically owes its existence to the UK. If it weren't for us there would be no US, and it is about time you incorporated the Union Jack into the US flag  Big grin
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 3:26 pm

The US still owes Europe, big time...
We paid for building your towns, your road network. We paid for the wagon trains that took people west to explore and settle the continent.
We paid to bring people to the Americas.
And then you betrayed us by declaring independence.
No reparations were ever paid for that...

I wish I were flying
 
Guest

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 3:45 pm

your army was a 100 times bigger and still got it's ass kicked!
 
paulc
Posts: 1440
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2001 10:42 pm

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 4:11 pm

jcs17,

your attitude is why americans get 'bashed' on this forum - you seen unable to view things from a non US point of view and do not like it if people are critical of the USA and its policy.

As for WW2 yes - the USA did give a lot of help but only after the war had been going for some time (lot of behind the scenes support though) but that does not give you the right to dismiss the difficult things the rest of us did during that time - it was not only americans who invaded on D-day - please try and remember that. America was lucky during WW2 in that there was no threat of invasion or bombing raids or V1 (later V2) - unlike the UK who did suffer these things. Please also remember who suffered the most casualties in WW2 - Russia (20million approx I think) - their efforts on the eastern front would have diverted valuable resources away from western europe, making invasion a much better prospect for success.

As for your support during the current situation - i think you will find the UK has been and will continue to be 100% behind you and blair will no doubt play a key role in getting the support of other european nations.

Just because europe is full of whiney greens, social dems, socialists and liberals (your words) (it is not really but as you said you are a dumb american  Smile does not mean you will not get support where justified.

As for the bratty kid of america remark - bratty kids eventually grow up and mature - i hope that someday america will mature sufficienty to realise that there are other people whose opinions are worth listening to and respecting.

ps - have visited the usa many times and found the people to be great - unfortunatley this does not mean we have to agree with everthing america says or does.

English First, British Second, european Never!
 
Guest

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 4:19 pm

I think someone has a very thin skin ...

:D

Using the same theory, America as we know it wouldn't exist except for Europe so not only does America owe Europe, the debt is older.

What a silly topic to start ..................




VH-ADG
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 4:56 pm

You know what I think.

Europe does owe the US a lot.

But a good neighbor doesn't need to shove it down their throats constantly.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
gkirk
Posts: 23349
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 5:13 pm

Well, we've found the reason of the Euro-US bashing recently, with comments like this made by some arrogant American who thinks that he/she is above everyone else. Europe does not owe US anything, and US doesnt owe Europe anything.
So no Europe bashing, and no US bashing!  Angry
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Guest

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 5:22 pm

Ryanb747 - obviously you've never seen the Hawaii State Flag!  Big grin

Boeing_in_PDX - you're forgetting the fact that the American forces were completely useless ... a rag-tag citizen force ... that actually relied on Prussian and French mercenaries to do their fighting for them!  Big grin
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 5:28 pm

Damm SAS23,

Still can't live down the fact that Cornwallis got is arse kicked???

As far as the mercinaries go, The Hessians(Prussians) where actually in the employ of the King and got slaughters after a secret christmas day attack, They made a very famous painting of the General in Charge crossing the Delaware River during the night for the attack.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
BCal Dc10
Posts: 696
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2001 9:47 pm

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 6:02 pm


The Americans did the hard stuff in WW2...invading Italy, having to go through the most difficult beach heads in Normandie, not to mention pushing the Nazis all the way back to Berlin.

So you're saying that the taking of Gold, Juno & Sword was easy are you mr jcs17? If my grandfather was alive today, he'd probably come over to the USA, and after giving you a good hard slap, he'd give you a proper education about WWII and how it was won by the Allies, and tell you about his company and the beach landings in 1944. I doubt he'd dare suggest that the yanks had a "hard time" of it compared to us.

Don't know where you get your facts from, but you're talking utter BOLLOCKS, as the "Allies" would say... I think you should toddle back to your college and sack your history teacher.
 
airsicknessbag
Posts: 4626
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2000 2:45 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 6:06 pm


What do you expect in a MUTUAL partnership - one side always saying "Sir, yes sir, you´re so right, sir!" ? It´s part of partnership and friendship to tell the other in a nice and civilised way when one doesn´t agree with him.


And about Europe still "owing" the US for the Marshall Plan: has it ever occurred to you that the Marshall Plan might have been propelled by not completely altruistic motivations? Like preventing the Soviets from getting all of Europe and becoming dangerous for the US? Think about it for a moment. And keep in mind the Morgenthau Plan which was gladly not implemented.

Regarding WW II, in a way the US paid dearly for the mistakes they made following WW I: T. Woodrow Wilson giving in to the French and not incorporating his "19 points" into the Versailles Treaty laid the seed for WW II.

Daniel Smile
 
Krushny
Posts: 756
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2000 4:22 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 6:20 pm

Jcs17, as for WWII, do you know the meaning of the word TEAMWORK? The USA would not have been able to win the war alone... And it did not exactly take the initiative to come to Europe to save my neighbour's butts, US got into the war because the Japanese attacked them first, and just afterwards Germany declared the war to you.
And speaking about my country Spain, following your logic I could say that we helped you in the Independence war, and also amicably sold you some territory (Florida). And what have we received in return? Supporting a Fascist Dictatorship here for 40 years wasn't exactly nice...
 
teva
Posts: 1764
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 12:31 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 7:11 pm

Do you know that withou France, the USA would maybe still be a Brittish colony?
La Fayette came to help your independance.
And later, Napoleon sold the Louisianne.
Because of this history, we want to be partners, not a new type of colony.
Teva
(PS: without europeans, you would probably not have the atomic weapons, and if you have been the first in the moon, it is thanks to Werne Von Braun)
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 7:40 pm

Well, USA was founded by Europeans, so who owes who is hard to tell? I think
without a healthy economy in Europe and US the living standards on both continents will go down. As for WW2, it was because of WW1 which US was involved in and dictated (together with France and the UK) which lead to the
WW2.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 8:12 pm

Dont give the same old crap that it was an "allied" effort, sure it was, but without American involvement there is no doubt that London and eventually all of England would have eventually been taken by the Nazis

We will always be grateful for what america did during WW2.

But let me tell you, if it wasn't for the great leadership and skills of the legendary Sir Winston Churchill and the resilience of the British people, then Europe would have been nazi occupied. It is no exaggeration to say Britain saved most of europe from the nazi's, we saved a lof of people's butts.

But for you come in and say this, smacks of ignorance and arrogance, you have taken these words to new levels. And it's ironic you choose this day to claim your greatness.  Yeah sure

The day Tony Blair anounces Britain will pay "Blood price" for the americans.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2239887.stm
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 8:29 pm

But let me tell you, if it wasn't for the great leadership and skills of the legendary Sir Winston Churchill and the resilience of the British people, then Europe would have been nazi occupied. It is no exaggeration to say Britain saved most of europe from the nazi's, we saved a lof of people's butts.

What Britian did during the Blitz was truly amazing, and may have been the overwhelming factor in public opinion in the US to support the British any it could, short of entering the war. The Edward R. Murrow nightly broadcasts starting with the famous line "This Is London", rivited Americans, has he his eyewitness accounts of actual attacks on the Capital.

But having said that, the cold, hard reality, Arsenal, is that Britian could NOT have forced the Nazi's out of Europe by itself. I DO, with all respect, think it IS an exaggeration to say that Britian saved most of Europe's butts from the Nazis. Britian played an indespensable role in that task-becoming a virtual aircraft carrier and military base for the millions of American servicemen and women who were stationed there prior to, and even after, Operation Overlord. Without the British Isles as a launching pad for bombing runs into Europe, and as the jump-off point for Overlord, there's no doubt that taking back Europe-probably thorugh Africa, would have been much harder.

Theoretically, could the U.S. have beaten Hitler without a free, independent Britian? Probably, yes. The US would have lost a lot more men doing so than they did, but the US had the industrial capacity and the manpower capacity to slug it out with Hitler in other ways. Can the same be said for Britian-going at it alone without the US? I don't think they could have done it.
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 8:33 pm

You see Jcs17, even Alpha 1 agrees with us to a certain extent. Big grin
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Fri Sep 06, 2002 8:57 pm

And Aresenal, that assessment was NOT a put-down of Britian, I hope you know.  Smile Just an unbiased appraisal looking back 60 years now.
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 1:01 am

Put it this way - the UK witheld the Germans for a heck of a long time. BUT, if the Germans hadn't screwed up against the Russians or if the US hadn't got involved, we would in all probability most likely have succombed.

But JCS's assertion that the European Allies were basically arsing around until the brave, mighty US came in 'to save our butts' is waaaaay wide of the mark. And also deeply insulting to millions of Allied servicemen (US, UK, European) who gave their lives.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 1:07 am

BCal: I dont care what gramps says about Normandy, consult most history books or watch a documentary about it and it usually documented that the U.S. entered the most dangerous beaches and left the Brits to take care of the easier ones.

Arsenal@LHR: I think that Winston Churchill was the greatest European of the 20th century, I have all the respect in the world for Sir Churchill. And there is no way that Britain alone could have beaten back the German war machine. Think about it, only until the after U.S. joined the war, were the Germans significantly pushed back. The UK just didnt have the troop strength or numbers to push them back. There is no doubt that England would have eventually been taken by the Nazis. JUST BECAUSE I LOVE MY COUNTRY AND THINK THAT WE ARE MISTREATED BY THE REST OF THE WORLD, DOES THAT MAKE ME ARROGANT? NO, ITS MY OWN OPINION.
---
I have been accused of writing from a U.S. 1st point of view and not seeing the rest of the picture. Sorry, but most of your posts arent exactly unbiased either and written by strictly European points of view.

Many Europeans are angry the way that American society and institutions have infiltrated their nations (it is understandable though), and the way that the American way of life now dominate their societies to a certain extent. Yet, these are the same people who would stop at McDonalds get back in their car and pop in a (insert your favorite American band here) CD in their CD players. As I said before though, I really like Europe, but would never live there. I have actually found that Europeans are friendly until they find out that you are American (this occurs in most of the countries I have visited).

Just be nice to us, there are certain people who go over to Europe and act like jackasses and wonder why we get treated poorly. Americans are friendly to Europeans when they visit our nation, even though they might not have a friendly attitude. Its a shame that a few idiots ruin things in Europe for all Americans.







America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
Guest

RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 1:13 am

Rather more interesting would have been the scenario of what would the Americans had done if Britain had fallen in Operation Sealion in 1940. They would not have had a foothold in Europe, so any attack would have been all but impossible. They would have had to have fought single-handed against the Japanese, and of course the Germans had developed long range bombers capable of striking the east coast of the US ... whereas the Americans had nothing that could have hit Berlin from the States. The Japanese would have attacked the Soviets from the rear, taking pressure off the Germans, and pretty soon they would have been rolled up. A German nuclear attack - probably on New York - would have brought the Americans to their knees.
 
GDB
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RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 2:06 am

The ultimate key to WW2 was atomic weapons, guess where many Manhattan Project scientists came from?
You've got it, the UK-and many of the scientists fled to the UK as Nazi Germany spread it's influence before WW2.
After WW2, despite promises, the UK was excluded from atomic programmes, until the late 50's after the UK had developed it's own deterrent.

Hitler really gave up on the idea of invading the UK in 1940, when it became clear that air superiority was unlikely, he would face extremely determined resistance and anyway, a German invasion force would have to cross the English Channel in converted river barges, even without full air cover the Royal Navy would have made mincemeat of them, even if the RN had sustained very heavy losses doing so, imagine even just a bunch of Destroyers getting amongst the invasion force!
For good reason the German army were very lukewarm about Operation Sealion.

Hitler could not be dislodged without a US supported invasion, but without the UK there could be no invasion, without us still in the battle, more resources could have meant a Nazi victory in Russia.

So the US had a rough time of Omaha beach, the luck of the draw I'm afraid, it wasn't thought to be the toughest, combat operations are inherently chaotic and plans rarely survive contact with the enemy.
The techniques for assaulting the French coast were learnt in the most painful way in the Dieppe raid in 1942, not heard of it? Well it's outside the remit of 'Hollywood' history as Brits and Canadians did the op.

After D-Day, a French resistance army arose, as planned, Eisenhower said they were worth '12 Divisions'.

Yes Britain started the slave trade, and was the first to ban it too, don't transfer you're national guilt on to us, the US had appalling segregation and other racial oppression just 35 years ago.
And what happened to the Native Americans? No nation has a totally clean history, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 
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sebolino
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RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 4:04 am

I guess nobody is denying the importance of US help for Europe during WWII.
But I still don't see why Europe should always agree with US now. And it's the freedom that they allowed us to keep which allows us to criticize.
I don't see the problem.
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 4:52 am

SAS23 describes an interesting scenario: "the scenario of what would the Americans had done if Britain had fallen in Operation Sealion in 1940."

True, Britain wouldn´t have been the stepstone she was. But how about Malta? The emphasis of the allied invasion into Europe could have been on Italy like this. The troops would have reached Germany later, hence the Soviets would have advanced farther to the west.

Add to that the missing support by the RAF from the air, the war would have taken quite a bit longer in Europe. The atomic bomb might have been ready in time to use it there.

Both consequences - Soviet troops at the Atlantic and the bomb at, say, Essen and Cologne - would be rather unpleasant.

Daniel Smile
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 5:25 am

Sorry, but most of your posts arent exactly unbiased either and written by strictly European points of view.

How ironic? This whole thread is from an american's point of view, and you say my view is strictly european? Tit for tat dude.

In Arsene we trust!!
 
bravo45
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RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 5:53 am

Alpha1!"I do not believe Europe owes the U.S. anymore for World War II. 60 years of alliance and Friendship, and being on the front line in Europe during the Cold War has paid off any debt "owed" to the U.S. I do think, however, with the passing of time, there is not the appreciation of what the U.S. did during-and after-the war, to help Europe. It wasn't just the troops we sent, but the US truly became the "aresenal of democracy", with the armaments that were vital to defeat Hitler and Japan; it wasn't just winning the war that was important, but it was winning the peace afterwards, with the Marshall Plan and stopping the Soviet Union from advancing further west.

I don't believe there is enough historical appreciation by the generations that have come since the late 1960's for what the U.S. did to help Europe, but I can't subscribe to the belief that Europe owes the U.S. still."


I would agree with you Alpha1 and I think that the reason behind the fact that there hasn't been any or enought appreciation since 60's or so is because most of the repair work was done fast and though this was a very distructive war but still the rebuilding was fast and the new generations didn't saw much suffering or the after effects of it around them. So to them it had happened but they were alrite. So they don't have the true idea of the extent of the work that had been done before them and thus because of their current affairs, they don't really think much on that.

The ultimate key to WW2 was atomic weapons, guess where many Manhattan Project scientists came from?
You've got it, the UK-and many of the scientists fled to the UK as Nazi Germany spread it's influence before WW2.
After WW2, despite promises, the UK was excluded from atomic programmes, until the late 50's after the UK had developed it's own deterrent.

Well I would suggest you to read about a German Submarine, the U-234 and its mission and its significance in the Manhattan Project. Also a lot of scientists were germans as well.

 
BWIrwy4
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RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 6:16 am

SAS23: "Boeing_in_PDX - you're forgetting the fact that the American forces were completely useless ... a rag-tag citizen force ... that actually relied on Prussian and French mercenaries to do their fighting for them! "

So what's more embarrassing, SAS? Did you get your arse kicked by the froggies or the continentals? Big grin
 
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RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 6:23 am

BCal: I dont care what gramps says about Normandy, consult most history books or watch a documentary about it and it usually documented that the U.S. entered the most dangerous beaches and left the Brits to take care of the easier ones.

You have to love those American documentaries now don't you?

JUST BECAUSE I LOVE MY COUNTRY AND THINK THAT WE ARE MISTREATED BY THE REST OF THE WORLD, DOES THAT MAKE ME ARROGANT?

Hell yes.

I have been accused of writing from a U.S. 1st point of view and not seeing the rest of the picture. Sorry, but most of your posts arent exactly unbiased either and written by strictly European points of view.

The two issues are mutually exclusive. The fact remains that nobody but the allies won the war, this stupid pissing competition gets really tiresome after a while. It's also hugely offensive to the countries you put down when your ego writes it's cheques.

Many Europeans are angry the way that American society and institutions have infiltrated their nations (it is understandable though), and the way that the American way of life now dominate their societies to a certain extent.

Are they really angry about that? Or are they angry at the constant reminder from ignorant, arrogant people about how they owe America for their very existance?

Yet, these are the same people who would stop at McDonalds get back in their car and pop in a (insert your favorite American band here) CD in their CD players.

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy .. and eat that locally grown/manufactured food that McDonalds uses and listen to that locally manufactured CD as they went. Although, the chances of them using an American band would be about 50% as there is a multitude of fantastic music coming out of other countries.

As I said before though, I really like Europe, but would never live there.

Hey, lucky for them Big grin.

I have actually found that Europeans are friendly until they find out that you are American (this occurs in most of the countries I have visited).

Do you really believe it's because they've found out that you are American or is it that they don't like your attitude to the world? As someone who deals with Americans all the time I find they come in two groups .. the sort you like and the wankers ... pretty typical of ANY COUNTRY REALLY.

Just be nice to us, there are certain people who go over to Europe and act like jackasses and wonder why we get treated poorly.

and there are those who start threads like this one... embarrasing the majority of your countrymen.

Americans are friendly to Europeans when they visit our nation,

Do you think you're friendly to them? If so, go read your initial post.

even though they might not have a friendly attitude. Its a shame that a few idiots ruin things in Europe for all Americans. ..

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy it's funny that you should say that ......................

By the way, it's not just in Europe, it's in most countries and it's in public forums like this one. Imagine suggesting Europe owed America for their assistance in a war that America didn't even join until their own country was attacked!!!!! Then imagine trying to blame everyone else for the bad behaviour!!!!!!

LMFAO.

I think the war could not have been won without the US, but I dont' think the US won the war. I think all to often some people tend to forget that when the US fights, it usually fights with Allies and those Allies assist in a postive way to the result that is gained. They deserve your respect because all to often these Allies are fighting a war of little relevance to themselves (ie Vietnam). Perhaps you should show a little more respect to other countries and you may find that these people show you a little more respect back. It's highly possible that their reaction to you is because of your attitude and not your country of birth.





VH-ADG
 
donder10
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RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 6:27 am

Of course there are nations in Europe that actually value and like Americans, Norway, Greece, Poland, to name a few, but Europe has to realize that the U.S. bailed them out and that they still owe us for it, and the least the could do is at least support us as we try to dispose of a leader that has used chemical and biological weapons against his own people.

OK for a scenario say all European leaders supported a US-led attack on Iraq.It still probabrly wouldn't change opinions of Russia and the Middle East etc.Greece supports the US?You don't seem to know too much about US-European state relations.
Get off your high horse and realize that, in actuality, Britain was the most imperialistic nation (not America!) in the world during the early 1900s
And realise that a lot of countries that Britain coloniesed experienced their economic,social and infastructual peaks under British rule.

Its a shame that a few idiots ruin things in Europe for all Americans.
What over-generalised crap.There are also dickhead Americans surprisingly.








 
Klaus
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Jcs17

Sat Sep 07, 2002 7:12 am

Jcs17: Many Europeans are angry the way that American society and institutions have infiltrated their nations (it is understandable though), and the way that the American way of life now dominate their societies to a certain extent.

That´s looking for simple explanations for a much more complex relationship. Sorry, there are no such simple explanations.


Jcs17: I have actually found that Europeans are friendly until they find out that you are American (this occurs in most of the countries I have visited).

There are some morons here as well as anywhere else; But I have yet to witness an american being harassed for being who he or she is. Whenever I´ve met americans in social situations over here they were treated decently and like anybody else (except from the usual curiosity).

Jcs17: Just be nice to us,

Maybe it would help if you toned down the "...or else!" part a little...  Wink/being sarcastic


When you get right down to it, what your initial post seemed to demand would amount to eternal submission to every whim of your respective president - whether he´s elected or not, whether the USA have just screwed their allies (again) or not, and whether the issue at hand is a great or a stupid idea.

I just can´t see any way grown-up and responsible people could ever agree to something as silly as that.


When there are things about the USA that are inspiring to people all over the world, it´s certainly not "might makes right" as at least a part of the current administration appears to believe.
 
BCal Dc10
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RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 9:42 am

BCal: I dont care what gramps says about Normandy, consult most history books or watch a documentary about it and it usually documented that the U.S. entered the most dangerous beaches and left the Brits to take care of the easier ones.

Missed that in "most history books", sorry. Please document it here jcs17 as you seem to know more than the rest of us - I think we'd all like to read about how "the US entered the most dangerous beaches and left the Brits to take care of the easier ones" for ourselves.
 
jcs17
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RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 9:57 am

ADG, your personal attacks are very distasteful and in fact makes you look like the jackasses that I described above. The fact that you even mention Vietnam is in the sense that you did is disgusting, the US lost apx. 58,000 soilders in Vietnam, more than 116 times the amount that Australia lost. Looking back on it, the Vietnam War probably wasnt a good idea, especially the way that the doves back in the U.S. had us fighting it. My attitude for US-Europe relations is that people ought to treat others with respect, especially those nations who have helped out others in a time of need.

I also appreciate the UKs work in WW2, they helped us out in certain aspects tremendously.

Donder, I meant Turkey in my previous post, but Greece has shown some willingness to support the US. Even though the UK did improve societies in Africa and Asia during the Age of Imperialism, you cannot say that things left all the better. Now, thanks to British Imperialism, we have to read about white farmers are getting run off their farms and murdered in Africa, due to the poor treatment of the natives while Imperialist rule was in place. As for my "over-generalized" posts, sorry. Next time I will be sure to type a hundred page post just to get my points across for you.

Klaus, I respect your opinions and the fact that you didnt have to attack in a negative tone to get your point across. I just think that certain Americans go to Europe expecting Orlando, Florida, which is really a shame. Bad Americans give the rest of us really bad names, and as a result we may not be treated too well. Of course, I have met people Europe who have been extremely friendly to me, as an American, strangely enough, this happened a lot in Paris, a place that has a reputation for being rude to Americans. In my experience the Germans (I have only been to Frankfurt), the Irish (Dublin), the Belgians (Brussels and Ghent), and the Swiss (Geneva and Zurich) have been pretty friendly too. On the other side of the coin, Ive found that England (London), Italy (Rome, Milan), and Spain (Madrid) havent been too friendly to an American, like myself.

America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 11:53 am

Rather more interesting would have been the scenario of what would the Americans had done if Britain had fallen in Operation Sealion in 1940. They would not have had a foothold in Europe, so any attack would have been all but impossible.

Not impossible, Neil, but definitely a longer, harder, and bloodier time of it. I think the US would have, along with Free-British, Free-French, Canadian, Aussie, etc troops, would have had to drive through North Africa some how, and into what mistakently called "the soft underbelly of Europe", i.e, Italy, and probably Neutral Spain as well.
 
L-188
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RE: Europe Still Owes The U.S.

Sat Sep 07, 2002 5:12 pm

of course the Germans had developed long range bombers capable of striking the east coast of the US ... Whereas the Americans had nothing that could have hit Berlin from the States

Excuse me, SAS23....

But what heavy bombers did the Germans have? The lack of heavy bombers is one of the reason why the Battle of Britain came out the way it did, they where not able to hit any of the major industrial centers in the north of GB. That meant they where not able to significantly affect British combat aircraft production.

Likewise on the Russian Front. Stalin had all of their factories moved west of the Ural Mountains out of the range of the German advance and it's supporting bombers during the first winter. Again, since those factories weren't pressured they where able to churn out material like crazy during the war.

What few German bomber designs there where not brought to fruition because of technical defects in the design or because the German High Command, with a WWI corporal leading it did not see aviation as it's own separate body, that had it's own independent goals. They saw it as a support arm of a rapidly advancing land army, with a goal of supporting army activities.

The Germans had some excellent medium bomber designs because of this, but their heavy long range bomber capacity was seriously lacking.
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