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Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Mon Sep 09, 2002 8:16 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2245505.stm

Leading defence anaylsts confirm this:

Iraq could produce a nuclear bomb within a matter of months if it were able to obtain supplies of radioactive material, according to an assessment of Saddam Hussein's weapons programme.

A wide-ranging report by the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) in London concludes Iraq has probably been successful in hiding large stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons from United Nations inspectors, as well as a small number of long-range missiles.

"Were he able to obtain fissile material... we certainly believe that he has the ability to put together a nuclear weapon very quickly"

Dr John Chipman

The report will fuel the debate about possible military action against Iraq, as pressure grows on UK Prime Minister Tony Blair and US President George W Bush to publish their own dossiers setting out the case against Baghdad.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Mon Sep 09, 2002 8:23 pm

Okay. I'd say this is fairly credible proof that Hussein has access or will have access to Weapons of mass destruction. But do we have proof of his desire to use them against Western countries or their interests?

Anyone have anything they wish to contribute along those lines, statements from the Iraqi leader. Because although he may well have the bomb, has he made threats about who (if anyone) he wishes to use it on. Its all well and good to say he has these weapons but without intent, what difference will it all make. The USA, China, UK, India, Pakistan all have WMD, so why dont we invade them? If he has the intent to use them against Western nations and/or their international interests, lets go to war.

Regards,

QANTASforever
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Mon Sep 09, 2002 8:31 pm

Qantas, he does have the intent because hes used them before against IRAN, the kurds and his own people. He also has the well know desire to be a second saladin and start a crusade, saddam hussien actually thinks he is saladin, his books which the whole iraqi nation are forced to read out of fear depict him as such.

"The USA, China, UK, India, Pakistan all have WMD"

Good point but they will use them as a detterant, even pakistan and india with the tensions over kashmir have both said they wont use them first, china, the us, uk, israel, russia, france are all the same. Look at 1967 and the cuban missle crisis, both the usa and russia could ahve pressed the trigger but they didnt because they knew the consquences.

The problem is that saddam doesnt care about the consquences, he wants to be a hero, to him he had a victory in the gulf war because the un didnt get rid of him and because he inflicted death on the un troops, especially the americans, he also managed to bomb israel even though it was a piss poor performace to him it doesnt matter.

Victory for thim is the death of westerners, thats the problem.
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KROC
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Mon Sep 09, 2002 8:34 pm

Okay. I'd say this is fairly credible proof that Hussein has access or will have access to Weapons of mass destruction. But do we have proof of his desire to use them against Western countries or their interests?

Saddam has used destructive weapons on his own people. So with his disdain for the West, why would he not use these weapons against Western nations? Especially Israel? As for why we would stop him from having these weapons, is because of the realness in which he would use nuclear and or biological weapons. India and Pakistan, while being nuclear powers, and have been able to avoid the use of nukes in a war with each other. Why? Because they know. Saddam would have no problem sending a nuclear weapon to Israel.
 
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Mon Sep 09, 2002 8:52 pm

Qantas Power, here is further proof of his intent,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2174293.stm

"Izzat Ibrahim was reported by the New York Times to have warned the Kurds in January 1991 not to cause trouble during the Gulf War.

He reminded them of the chemical attack on Halabja with the words: "I would like to remind you that we are ready to repeat the operation."

He is vice president of the Revolution Command Council and has been used in 2002 to try to woo Iraq's neighbours.

He has exchanged an embrace with Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and has promised to respect the "territorial integrity" of Kuwait.

He narrowly escaped arrest on a war crimes warrant in Austria once while being treated for suspected cancer."

here is further proof tat iraq has WMDs
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1853860.stm

"A UN report released in March last year suggested that Iraq still had chemical and biological weapons - as well as the rockets to deliver them to targets in other countries. Iraq denies this.

And, on Wednesday, US diplomats said photographs taken by spy satellites show that trucks imported by Baghdad for civilian purposes have been converted into mobile missile launchers. "

from the same source-"After its withdrawal, Unscom was replaced by Unmovic (UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission) which has not been allowed into the country.

Baghdad has allowed limited inspections to be carried out by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). But the group says it is not enough to determine whether Iraq may be engaged in a secret nuclear weapons programme.

Sanctions against Iraq will be lifted if it complies fully with international inspections of its weapons industry, the UN says. "

Iraqi Exiles and refugees want a strike against saddam themselves
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1951039.stm

http://209.50.252.70/p_en/inc/index.shtmlIraqi national congress site.


It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Mon Sep 09, 2002 8:58 pm

And the problem is?

That he has/will soon have the WMD? The US also has access to far more WMD than Saddam can ever hope to.

Intent to use? Well again the US has DEMONSTRATED that intent more than once.

So what? BIG DEAL!!

This is obviously another propaganda initiative by Dubya and his criminal cronies to push the World into another War and prevent the Middle-East from returning to normalcy.

History has been witness to how America has cynically propped up and used tin-pot dictators (including Saddam himself) as instruments of American foreign policy. Would Alpha1 and other self-proclaimed American patriots care to explain how Saddam and his Republican Guards managed to capture power? How they got his hands on the Chemical and Biological Weapons? The silence on that is deafening!

If the US is against Saddam, becuase he is a despotic dictator, then it must also give up supporting other dictators from the dictators in Africa and South America. But your criminal government sets up one dictator one day to turn on him the next! Yesterday it was Ayub Khan, Zia and sundry dictators in South America, today it is Musharraf! These dictators were propped up with American taxpayers money, and once again it is your money that is going to clean up the mess? To whose Benefit? the arms companies!


-Roy
 
L-188
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Mon Sep 09, 2002 9:00 pm

How they got his hands on the Chemical and Biological Weapons? The silence on that is deafening!


They bought them from the French.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Mon Sep 09, 2002 9:07 pm

well of course an indian is going to complain about Musharraf!, as far as im aware though he has commited himslef to resorting democracy in pakistan, is that not the case?

I mentioned america regarding nukes the other day, ill do soon again.

Yes, america has used nuclear weapons, twice. It had NO choice every historian accepts as do those with a military background that a conventional war and invasion against japan would have ended up with far greater civilains and military personal death than the use of two atomic weapons. Japan had a attitude that it would fight to the end, everyone knew that, you only have to look at the case of the japanese general who lived in the jungle in the far east and wouldnt give in until the 1970s!

America made a difficult choice, invade japan or use an a-bomb, i dont like nuclear weapons but it was the best option for the greater good of humanity, or would you rather have tens of milliosn dead in an invasion roy?

heres something some wont like, a un resolution which allows for action against saddam:http://209.50.252.70/p_en/inc/principals.shtml
"UNSC Resolution 688 (1991)

As mandated by Security Council resolution 688 (1991), the international community has the authority and the obligation to compel Saddam Hussein to end the oppression of the Iraqi people and to provide the suffering people with effective humanitarian relief.

Resolution 688 (1991) recognises the enmity that exists between the regime and the Iraqi people and the regional instability that is the inevitable result of the dictatorship's repression.

For this reason, the INC supports international efforts to relieve this oppression and concludes that such action is not prejudicial to the unity, sovereignty and territorial integrity of Iraq, which are threatened only by the continuation of Saddam's oppressive rule."

"your criminal government sets up one dictator one day to turn on him the next" Im not american, i was born in the uk and have an irish father and canadian mother.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Mon Sep 09, 2002 9:20 pm

Okay. I'd say this is fairly credible proof that Hussein has access or will have access to Weapons of mass destruction. But do we have proof of his desire to use them against Western countries or their interests?

He's already used them against his own people, QANTASforever. Isn't that history enough to alarm you? It does me. Meglomaniacs like him usually don't get weapons to just sit on them an look pretty. He'll use them-either physically, or as blackmail to get Israel or the Gulf Arab states to give in to some crazy demand of his.

And, like the good little anti-American you are, Indianguy, you try to shift the argument away from some legitimate proof that this nut could have nukes in a very short time, shrug it off, and start blasting the US again.

Unfortunately, Roy, your reaction is what I will expect from the apologists on this board. Even if concrete, verifiable proof is found, you and a some others will find a way to scoff it off-up until the very moment this madman decides to use such a weapon, either physically or as blackmail.
 
BarfBag
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Mon Sep 09, 2002 9:57 pm

well of course an indian is going to complain about Musharraf!, as far as im aware though he has commited himslef to resorting democracy in pakistan, is that not the case?

What's the difference between an Indian complaining about Mush and an American complaining about Saddam ? They're both despots, notwithstanding Mush's claims that his is a "democratic dictatorship"  Laugh out loud We hate Mush's guts because of his acts in Kargil in 1999, besides cynically using the jehadis in a proxy war against us. You guys hate Saddam for obvious reasons. On the other hand Mush has been cooperative with you, just as Iraq and India have had traditionally good commercial ties.
 
Guest

RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Mon Sep 09, 2002 10:24 pm

Israel also has chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. It has medium range missiles capable of hitting targets in Europe ... their range is too great just to target their 'natural enemies'.

They have stated on many occasions that they are prepared to use them, and indeed during 1973 aircraft were actually loaded with nuclear weapons to use against Syrian targets.

Israel has attacked a number of its neighbours, including Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon; and has been responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians since 1948.

It has used its nuclear, chemical and biological weapons to blackmail the US into continue to provide billions of dollars a year in sophisticated weaponry, much of which is used on civilians under its control in the Occupied Territories.

There are numerous UN Resolutions in force against Israel - all of which are completely ignored by them - and Israel also routinely bars UN inspectors from its territory.

It has also consistently called for an attack on Iraq and the removal of Saddam.

Given such aggression, is it not understandable that the Iraqis would want to defend themselves with similar weapons? This is no more (or less) than the Soviets did against the US ... or the US against the Soviets. If Iraq had wanted to use WMDs on Israel, its best opportunity to have done so would have been during the Gulf War when they were firing Scuds at Israel with the hope of getting them to attack Iraq, which in turn would have lead to the collapse of the Coalition. They had the capability - almost all of which was destroyed subsequently by Coalition attacks or the UN inpectors.

It is easy to say that Iraq would have the ability to 'go nuclear' within a matter of months ... if they get hold of the appropriate nuclear material. Just about any nation (or terrorist group) could do so if it could get hold of the material. The hard part isn't the material - it's the manufacturing of it and especially the Kryton switches that ensure uniform detonation. Those are not exactly offered for sale on EBay!  Insane
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Mon Sep 09, 2002 10:41 pm

Israel also has chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. It has medium range missiles capable of hitting targets in Europe ... their range is too great just to target their 'natural enemies'.

Goddammit, SAS23, STOP BRINGING UP ISRAEL WHEN IT'S NOT THE SUBJECT! THIS ISN'T ABOUT ISRAEL!!!

This is about Iraq, and, unlike Israel, Iraq is not surrounded by mortal enemies, is it? Stick with the subject matter, Neil, or confine your comments to a new or running thread ABOUT Israel.

They have stated on many occasions that they are prepared to use them, and indeed during 1973 aircraft were actually loaded with nuclear weapons to use against Syrian targets.

And, did it slip your mind to tell the readers WHY Israel had done so? It was because Syrian troops had breached Israel's last line of defense in the north, and the whole heartleand was open to an attack by the Syrians, which could have meant the destruction of Israel. Fortunately, the Syrian Commander wasn't smart enough to see the situation, and the crisis passed. Again-their existence was mortally threatened. Iraq's isn't. They want the weapons for armed blackmail, or to use to take out Israel, if they can.

Israel has attacked a number of its neighbours, including Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon; and has been responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians since 1948.

Iraq has attacked two of it's neighbors in the past 20 years-Iran and Kuwait, and has been responsible for over a million deaths in that time, most during the Iran-Iraq war, and in his killing his own people. What's your point, Neil? Again-stop changing the subject matter. This is about Iraq, not Israel.

It has also consistently called for an attack on Iraq and the removal of Saddam.

Iraq has continually called for the DESTRUCTION of Israel-not just an attack and removal of a government there.

Now, Neil, you basically justify Iraq's claim for wanting these weapons, yet you deny Israel has any claim to them, even though they're surrounded by enemies on all sides. It shows two things: one, you're just a sad apologist for Saddam Hussein, the biggest butcher in the region, and secondly, it shows again your ultimate goal is the destruction of Israel, not just the removal of it's government. You bitch about Israel's aresenal, and you want the world to dismantle it, but you get upset because the US wants to stop this nut from even having them?

So much for your continued lack of credibility.
 
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Mon Sep 09, 2002 11:02 pm

This is indeed about Israel - because double standards are being used here. You're also well aware of that - hence your desire to block the inclusion of anything that shows Israel to be breaching UN resolutions; blocking UN inspectors and in possession of WMDs and the will to use them. They are using their WMDs to blackmail the US.

What is the difference between Israel and Iraq?

Both countries present a clear and present danger to global security. Both countries should be deprived of their WMDs and their ability to ever produce such weapons again.

Any argument with that?
 
KROC
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Mon Sep 09, 2002 11:05 pm

SAS23. Forgive my ignorance, but how is Israel using WMD to "blackmail" the U.S.?
 
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Mon Sep 09, 2002 11:10 pm

Israel has told the US on a number of occasions that if the multi-billion dollar subsidies and supplies of sophisticated weaponry was to be cut off, they "would be forced" to use their WMDs on a pre-emptive strike basis.
 
AC320
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Mon Sep 09, 2002 11:11 pm

The will to use them? Israel hasn't nuked the arab world yet to turn into a radioactive paradise for the zionist fanatics, eh? That shows considerable restraint and sensibility considering the hostility their neighbours have shown in the past. Plus, are you seriously suggesting Israel has a nuclear arsenal to blackmail Europe, seeing as their range is too great for mere "natural enemies"?

I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you. Comes with a free fallout shelter.
fuddle duddle
 
Rai
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Mon Sep 09, 2002 11:17 pm

Israel has told the US on a number of occasions that if the multi-billion dollar subsidies and supplies of sophisticated weaponry was to be cut off, they "would be forced" to use their WMDs on a pre-emptive strike basis.

I've actually heard that arguement too. U.S. gives Israel money to keep them in check. I don't know if they WMD was ever brought up and there really hasn't been anything to prove this arguement. But you mustn't forget where Israel got the WMD from to begin with.

How did Israel come into this topic, BTW?  Insane
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Mon Sep 09, 2002 11:19 pm

This is indeed about Israel - because double standards are being used here.

ROTFL. The man who is protected to death because of double-standards, is complaining about one now. If you don't like this "double standard" Neil, why don't you bitch to the United Nations? After all, it is THEIR resolutions you're talking about being enforced, after all. But don't go on here saying Iraq has every right to these weapons which he does NOT want for defense, and has no legitimate use for if, as you say, he's no threat to his neighbors.

What is the difference between Israel and Iraq?

Israel wants to survive as a nation; Iraq wants to use these weapons to conquer others.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Mon Sep 09, 2002 11:22 pm

How did Israel come into this topic, BTW?

Easy, because SAS23 has to find some way to interject Israel into just about every debate on here. He's obsessed and paranoid with the subject. If he just dropped off the internet today, the debates over this subject would be cut by 7/8th.
 
AC320
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Mon Sep 09, 2002 11:23 pm

"Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction"

Nope, Don't see anything about Israel in there, so stop hijacking the topic for your conspiracy theories and Israel is evil obsession. You want to talk that, go start another thread so we can b*tch at each other there instaed of crapping this topic up.
fuddle duddle
 
KROC
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Mon Sep 09, 2002 11:27 pm

So let me get this straight. We pay the Israeli's not to nuke their Arb neighbors, but these Arab neighbors hate us, and are planning and doing terrorist attacks on the U.S.?

I'm all for saving my tax dollars. Cut the funding, and let Israel have fun.
 
tbar220
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 12:30 am

ROFL KROC! Morbid yet sadly true twist of logic there.
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AC320
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 12:39 am

KROC, we could turn that into a new hit reality show. Survivor: The Middle East . They aren't joking when they say there will be only one survivor.
fuddle duddle
 
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:26 am

SAS23, as i said before Israel is actually working towards the last Un resoltuion which compelled the palestinians and the israels to workf or peace, it stated israel must withdraw to pre-1967 borders and the P.A must clamp down on the terror attacks.the resolution stated that it SUPERCEDED all resolutions previous to it, the arab representative, syria refused to vote for it. Now since both sides are moving it that direction, eg israel is withdrawing from some areas, is beginning to dismantle settlements and since the terror attacks are declining, i would say both sides have some work to do, but they are on their way.

Iraq however is in breach of 12 un resolutions and hasnt made the effort on any of them.

Israel does have wmd, we all know that BUT it has never used them and has said it will do in self defence, it hasnt used them in warfare, iraq has.

Iraq has started two regional wars, now you could say israel started the six day war in 1967, after all it attacked first but what you seem to have glossed over is that it was threaterned by four armies and four countries, the world was quaking at the thought of the destruction of israel, when israel destroyed the arabs in six days suddenly it became the agressor.

im tired of this sas23, so for those who didnt read it the first time
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/277129/6/

Iraq didnt have a good reason for attacking iran nor did it have a good reason for the attack on kuwait, it attacked kuwait because it couldnt afford to repay their loans and thought it could get debt relief through military pressure, even iraq as you have trumpeted in the past has apparently given up any claim on kuwait, therefore if it had a really good reason to invade, surely it wouldnt have done that???????

The united states will not allow israel to sue wMD unless it is struck first, it may be fiction but try reading Total war 2006 sas, in it israel is attacked by the arabs with WMD, it responds and the usa nukes israel to stop further bloodshead.

sas23, i notice you havent actually addressed the issues which the IISS raised,typical really.
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:32 am

i think people we have got to ignore sas23 on this thread if he continues with the 'lets attack israel not iraq' style otherwise we risk this thread being wrecked by someone who cant address the issues that were stated and has single handely tried to change the direction of the thread simpy because he doesnt like what it reveals, that iraq does HAVE WMDS!
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Guest

RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:01 am

Go Canada! - I am simply stating that Israel poses a similar level of threat as Iraq. I note that you neglected to mention their invasion of Lebanon ... I suppose that the Lebanese army was about to invade Israel as well?  Yeah sure There is no proof that Jordan, Egypt or Syria were about to attack Israel - rather, there is ample proof that Israel were very much the aggressors in that war; hoping to be able to wipe out their enemies for once and for all.

Iraq used chemical weapons during its war with Iran - but then the Iranians did the same thing.

To date, no one has been able to provide a 'smoking gun' - evidence that Iraq does indeed currently have WMDs or the capability to produce them.
 
KROC
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:10 am

To date, no one has been able to provide a 'smoking gun' - evidence that Iraq does indeed currently have WMDs or the capability to produce them.

Sure there is. Not only do you have his ex-mistress who says he moved his Chem weapons around at night so the inspectors would never find them, you also have this fact.....

Why would Saddam not comply with the U.N. resolutions and allow the U.N. Weapons Inspectors in his country? If he has nothing to hide, he should have no provlem letting them look wherever they want too.

Oh wait, just for you SAS...  Yeah sure
 
JetService
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destructio

Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:23 am

SAS, its not just about who has WMD, but also the intent of their use. Why are you so blinded that you can't see that????
"Shaddap you!"
 
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mbmbos
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:36 am

Proof of WMD = justification to attack?

Sorry, but that kind of reasoning is just plain weak. There are plenty of nations with WMD and plenty more that can obtain it overnight (a 767 loaded with fuel is considered a WMD by the attorney general's office).

History of badness = justification to attack?

Well, perhaps you're getting a wee bit warmer, but not by much. The U.S. has allowed many regimes to get by with atrocities. Yet we haven't declared war on them and they haven't attacked us.

Here's the critria that I suggest: A threat must be credible and iminent in order to justify attack.

Credible: it's not enough to build a bomb, or even possess the raw materials to do so. Does Iraq have a credible method for delivering a payload of chemicals or explosives? In a way that would create mass destruction? Can they do so under the nose of Western intelligence? All the experts whom I have read/watched say that it's one thing to develop a crude bomb or spawn a batch of Anthrax, but it's a much greater challenge to use them in an effective way.

Iminnent: do we have any indications that Iraq is on the brink of using such weapons? Any intelligence reports that supports this? There's no doubt that Saddam is a bad dude, but looking over his past history, I don't see a straight line of progress, an organized plan as it were, that supports the notion that his ambitions have grown. In the past, it appeared that his ambitions were directed toward creating a super Arab state through his own brand of annexation. There have been anecdotal tales of Saddam supporting terrorist activities directed toward the U.S., but do we have any indication that he's got something big worked out for us?

I don't see the Bush Administration addressing this criteria, and I'm not inclined to support a war until they do.

"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
- R.M. Rilke
 
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:57 am

Mbmbos - you're spot on.

If proof of WMD = justification to attack, then Israel falls down.

If a "history of badness" = justification to attack, then Israel falls there, as well.

Iraq does not have any credible delivery methods - the missiles they used against Israel were actually two cobbled-together Scuds with a miniscule payload. And they actually expect people to believe that Saddam has been developing long range missiles capable of hitting Europe ... without being spotted and destroyed by the E3As and other reconnaisance aircraft? Yeah, right!  Yeah sure

Saddam has never attacked UK or even US interests except in retaliation for his humilating defeat in Desert Storm when he tried to have Bush Sr taken out; or in response to US support of Israel and its continued oppression of his fellow Arabs.
 
david b.
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 3:00 am

Disarm all WMD is all ME countries and stop funding Israel. Let them do battle with conventional weapons.
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david b.
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 3:06 am

Correct KROC:
I'm all for saving my tax dollars. Cut the funding to ISRAEL, and let IRAQ have fun.

Twist of Faith
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
AC320
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 3:09 am

SAS23 and friends, you sound like a combination of a borken record and violin in a trash compactor: The same bad crap over and over and over again.
fuddle duddle
 
david b.
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 3:16 am

AC320 and friends.............you and your people sound like that.....same anti-muslim anti-arab shit over and over and over again. So we say something bad about Israel. You hate muslims and arabs. So eye for a eye, hate for hate. What is wrong with that?
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
kaitakfan
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 4:02 am

David you are such a mess its not even funny! The majority of Americans dont hate muslims and arabs. We dislike those muslim and arabs that want all of us dead! There is a big difference. I hate those people! Many people in America and myself have no reservations to offer friendship to those from the middle east with good intentions and who have not been warped by the sick wave of islamic funadmentalists. Get a grip on reality before blurting out how all Americans hate Muslims and Arabs, because you are wrong!

I say we all start requesting deletion of the posts which SAS mentions Israel when it is irrelevant to the topic! I for one think its not right for a certain topic such as this one to be pulled through the mud of a totally different issue as SAS ALWAYS DOES!! After all isnt that a forum rule to stick to the topic??
 
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 4:27 am

Brian, if you actually read the posts then you would see that the point being made is that Israel is doing (or has done) exactly the same as Iraq ... yet there is no attack against it being threatened by the US.

Clearly, there must be other reasons beyond those being given by Dubya and his hawks ... and those of us who have extensive knowledge and experience in international affairs, especially those in the Middle East, are confident that the underlying desire on the part of the US is to steal control of Iraq's - and Saudi Arabia's, if at all possible - oil.

Given the rate at which global oil resources are running out; and the far higher proportionate consumption than the rest of the world by the US, it is to America's advantage to do this.

Whether Blair is aware of this and hopes for a few scraps from Dubya's table; or whether he is being used as a cat's paw, I don't know.
 
go canada!
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 4:37 am

ignore sas23 people, its the only way.

"Downing Street has described as "highly significant" a report from an independent think tank saying Iraq could produce a nuclear bomb within months.

The International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) says Saddam Hussein would first need to obtain supplies of radioactive material.

"We are obviously not talking about washing powder here"
Downing Street on Iraq's biological weapons

The IISS in London also concludes Iraq has probably been successful in hiding large stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons from United Nations inspectors, as well as a small number of long-range missiles.

Iraq's official press have dismissed the suggestion the country has weapons of mass destruction (WMD) as "a Zionist-inspired pack of lies".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2245505.stm

Heres the proof sas23, the cold hard proof. The IISS has stated that they find it incredible to think that saddam hasnt got wmds.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2245505.stm

Here are the key findings, broken down so that no-one can miss them:"These findings are in line with other reports, including a recently updated assessment by the Washington-based Centre for Strategic and International Studies. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2246156.stm

Heres the IISS weblink
http://www.iiss.org/news-more.php?itemID=88
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
AC320
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 4:39 am

David B. Youre attempt at taunting has no basis. I have never said anything against Muslims, or anytihng anti-arab. I do not hate them, i nfact I have many muslim friends from the Caribbean, and one Syrian. Care to try again?
fuddle duddle
 
go canada!
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 5:20 am

"So we say something bad about Israel. You hate muslims and arabs. So eye for a eye, hate for hate. What is wrong with that?"

errm no, i never have blamed the islamic faith for sept 11, in fact if you do a bit of research i said these terror groups are blackening the good name of islam and that islamic mainstream leaders have condemmed the acts of terror and that innocent muslims shouldnt be targetted, however some havent done the same when talking about jews or israel, further more i have always said that innocent palestinians civilains shouldnt be killed by the israelis and thats theres no excuse of war crimes.

hate for hate? your admitting you hate every jew??????
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
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mbmbos
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 5:32 am

Be very careful what you say, Go Canada!.

You are very close to making an unfair accusation against another member of this group - and you're very close to getting this thread deleted.

I think that SAS23 has made some valid comments. Let me paraphrase, leaving the Israel part out: How do you make the distinction between friends and enemies? How do you justify initiating a war? Because they have historically been involved in agression? Because they possess weapons of mass destruction?

On this point, I think that SAS23 has you in a pickle and you've failed to reason your way out.

Perhaps that's why you've become so emotional in your postings. Why not try a rational, reasoned response? I think that most members of the group respect postings that are reasonable and respectful.

- M
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
- R.M. Rilke
 
kaitakfan
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 5:37 am

SAS, There is no doubt what you are saying raises some eyebrows for sure. The facts of what is going on outside of our shores is alarming. However, Israel and Iraq are not the same cases. Although as you pointed out there are some disturbing similarities between the two nations, that arguement can only be pushed so far. As what has been said before, Iraq is a loose canon and they want their weapons of mass destruction for other reasons then the Israeli's. Because of this reason, That is why I feel it is not appropriate for you to try and compare Israel with Iraq. As I said before, You raise some good points, but when you go off on a different tangent from the main disucssion, it takes alot of attention away from the main focus. SAS, just one question. Can you honestly say you are more worried about what Sharon is doing in Israel then what Hussein is up to in Iraq? Do you seriously see that Hussein is not up to any wrong doings, and desires as of late?

Cheers!
 
AC320
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 6:16 am

Mbmbos,

Too late one member of that group already made unfair accusations. This thread should have been deleted already, or had all these off-topic posts removed, because we all know what path this is taking.
fuddle duddle
 
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 6:20 am

KaiTakFan, I wholeheartedly agree that Saddam is a despot and is not exactly in the running for the Nobel Prize. That said, there are many leaders who treat their citizens and neighbours in an even worse manner - Mugabe comes to mind here.

I strongly believe that it is essential for a permanent solution to the Israeli/Palestinian problem to be arrived at before we can look at other nations in the region. Saddam has a legitimate concern - and therefore justification for his weapons - with Israel having the full gamut of WMDs. He is also able to point to Israel as being a country which also flouts UN Resolutions and bars UN inspectors from its territory ... thereby fatally weakening the demands of the US and the UK to permit them entry to Iraq.

My view is that Israel should be forced to give up its WMDs in exchange for a Mutual Defence Pact with the US and/or NATO as a whole - meaning that an attack on Israel is treated as an attack on the treaty nation. With that in place, their security would be assured - and there would be no need for the WMDs.

Then, if Israel has no WMDs, there is no reason for any other Arab nation to have them either - indeed, all the other nations in the region (with the exception of Israel) have already signed non-proliferation treaties. Any nation that does try to develop or acquire such capability would clearly have hostile intentions and would be treated accordingly.

This might be simplistic, but I can't see why it shouldn't work.
 
AC320
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 6:32 am

My view is that Israel should be forced to give up its WMDs in exchange for a Mutual defense Pact with the US and/or NATO as a whole - meaning that an attack on Israel is treated as an attack on the treaty nation. With that in place, their security would be assured - and there would be no need for the WMDs.

Wow that's actually some semblance of a good idea, I will give you that SAS23. However, that may step up American involvement in a volatile region a bit hire than most people are comfortable with. We've seen what mutual-defense pacts have caused in the past: mainly the World Wars. Don't know about you, but I'm not anxious for WW3.
fuddle duddle
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 6:37 am

Lol, BTW GoCanada!, My name isnt actually 'QANTASpower', it is QANTASforever --the original. Please don't make the same mistake again, I'm likely to take offence. lol


QANTASforever,
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 6:48 am

(no copyright has been infringed in this post)


Over 1.5 million Iraqis have died because of the Western(US) imposed embargo, 41% of them children under 5.

Most of the deaths have been caused by diarrhoea, pneumonia and respiratory problems, as well as malnutrition, all conditions which were treatable in pre-sanctions Iraq, it said.

Wherever you go in Iraq's southern city of Basra, there is dust. It gets in your eyes and nose and throat. It swirls in school playgrounds and consumes children kicking a plastic ball. "It carries death," said Dr Jawad Al-Ali, a cancer specialist and member of Britain's Royal College of Physicians. "Our own studies indicate that more than 40 per cent of the population in this area will get cancer: in five years' time to begin with, then long afterwards. Most of my own family now have cancer, and we have no history of the disease. It has spread to the medical staff of this hospital. We don't know the precise source of the contamination, because we are not allowed to get the equipment to conduct a proper scientific survey, or even to test the excess level of radiation in our bodies. We suspect depleted uranium, which was used by the Americans and British in the Gulf War right across the southern battlefields."

http://www.zmag.org/CrisesCurEvts/Iraq/pilger.htm

GENEVA - A U.N. human rights body called on Friday for the lifting of 10-year-old sanctions on Iraq, saying they had ``condemned an innocent people to hunger, disease, ignorance and even death.''

Items Banned by the Sanctions

agricultural pesticides
all electrical equipment
all other building materials ambulances
baby food
badminton rackets
bandages
blankets
boots
cannulas for intravenous drips catheters for babies
children's bicycles
children's clothes
chlorine and other water
purification chemicals
cleaning agents
cobalt sources for X-ray
machines
deodorants
dialysis equipment
disposable surgical gloves
drugs for angina
ECG monitors
erasers
glue for textbooks
incubators
leather material for shoes lipsticks
medical gauze
medical journals
medical swabs
medical syringes
medication for epilepsy
nail polish
nasogastric tubes
notebooks
nylon cloth for filtering flour
other adult clothes
oxygen tents
paper
pencil sharpeners
pencils
ping-pong balls
polyester & acrylic yarn rice rubber tubes
school books
school handicraft equipment
shampoo
shirts
shoe laces
shroud material
soap
sanitary towels
specific granite shipments
specific umbilical catheters
steel plate stethoscopes
suction catheters for blockages surgical instruments
textile plant equipment
thread for children's clothes
tissues
toilet paper
tooth brushes
toothpaste
various other foodstuffs
wool felt for thermal insulation
X-ray equipment
X-ray film



Remind me again why the Iraqi people hate the United States?







VH-ADG
 
AC320
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 6:52 am

Remind me again what that has to do with WMDS? That's a different subject entirely.

fuddle duddle
 
KROC
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 6:52 am

My view is that Israel should be forced to give up its WMDs in exchange for a Mutual Defence Pact with the US and/or NATO as a whole - meaning that an attack on Israel is treated as an attack on the treaty nation. With that in place, their security would be assured - and there would be no need for the WMDs.

This idea is nothing short of terrible. Why should the U.S. now be responsible for the Ultimate defense of Israel, or even NATO? Further more, the fact that the U.S. would be in a Mutual Defense Pact, whould only ENRAGE damn near every Arab nation, and make the U.S. an even greater terrorist target. or would that be your aim SAS?

Not for nothing, but more than enough of my tax dollars are already going to Israel. They do not need anymore, and they certainly do not need U.S. Soldiers over there fighting for them.
 
tbar220
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 6:53 am

AC320,

Its an interesting thought, but then one major problem arises in my opinion. Sure, Israel would give up its right to have WMD, but then what about say..Iraq? Iraq would jump at the opportunity and nuke the brains out of Israel, or some terrorists would bring a nuke into Israel and detonate it, etc. Once the Arab world sees that Israel has nothing to deterr them from using their own WMD against Israel, they basically will see themselves as having a green light to attack Israel.

I believe they would carry out such an attack against Israel even if the rest of the world says that they would defend Israel. An opportunity for them like this would be rare indeed and they have so much hate for Israel that they would jump at the chance.



Concerning Iraq, people say that intention and actually having WMD is not enough to attack the country. Let's take then the Israeli's destroying the Iraqi nuclear plant. We should be extremely thankful that this was done, and the Israeli's made a very strong strategic move. Iraq is hostile towards Israel, and if they were to have a nuclear arsenal say ten years ago, it would be very bad for Israel. Just to propose a scenario to you. Saddam Hussein attacks Kuwait during the gulf war, but instead of dropping Scuds on Israel, he uses nuclear weapons. So you see why Israel did the right thing in destroying the nuclear plant? Its a preventive measure.

The way I view it, to stop terrorism, actions have to be preventive not reactive. The whole fight against terrorism is useless if we see another attack like we did on 9-11 or something of even greater scale, because it shows us that we did not prevent terrorist attacks.

History has shown that appeasement is a very poor process in achieving the goal. Perfect example, WWII attempt at appeasement with Hitler. So what's stopping Hussein from using WMD against the Western World even after the embargo's have been dropped and his 'demands' granted? Why should we follow his whim, when his reputation has shown that we should not?

The worst thing that could happen is if we decided not to attack Iraq and then Iraq ends up using WMD against its own people, Iran, Israel, Europe, or the United States. Now while this is a "what if" situation and we don't know if he would do something like this or not, I sure as hell wouldn't want to take that chance.
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AC320
Posts: 2809
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RE: Proof That Iraq Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Tue Sep 10, 2002 6:57 am

Tbar220,

Do not worry, I have my reservations about SAS23's statement that parellel yours. I was merely pointing out it was one of the first, non-propagande, sem-sensible things I've read of his in a while. There are too many "what ifs" that arise from his proposal such as the one you mentioned for it to be really viable.
fuddle duddle

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