cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 2:54 am

Usual flaming of anyone who has a pop at America, and it's gov't. Here is my response, which I was going to tack onto the end of a long thread ("To Those Who Bash America") but I want to know what Americans think of what I've said so I'm starting a new topic:

No country browbeats the rest of the world like America does about how much better it is than everyone else. And it really gets annoying. I've been to the US on biz and on holiday a total of about 15 times, and I really like the place and it's people. I love tall buildings, hard-working and friendly people, big portions of food, and cheap consumer goods. So it really is my kind of place, don't get me wrong.

But it's version of democracy stinks, all that TV advertising, big business' vested interest, Supreme Court appointing a president against the wishes of the electorate (or the tiny part thereof that actually bothered to vote), ugh. And I don't rate America's so-called freedom of speech that highly. You can say what you want without arrest, but you will be ostracised by society for a huge range of sentiments, whereas in other countries you can say what you want without fear of arrest OR ostracisation. Good quality of life, good opportunities if you're white, 7/10 for freedom, 4/10 for democracy. Neither the greatest country on earth or the worst.

But here's the other thing: if something can't take a bit of criticism or questioning (be it a religion, nation, whatever), then it's not that great. If you criticised the UK, most Brits (however patriotic) would agree with you. Americans should be more willing to recognise it's own weaknesses (there are a few, contrary to domestic belief), it might learn something. Instead, a critic of the US gov't is accused of "slamming" (what an idiotic term) the country, being an appeaser, god knows what else. It's that whole "with us or against us" thing, well, I'm both, depends on the issue at hand. But the more I get lectured about how American democracy and freedom is superior to anyone else's (which clearly isn't the case), the more I fall into the latter camp, along with the rest of the world, despite there being much to respect, admire and love in the nation that stretches from sea to shining sea.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 3:02 am

PS, to show I really do like the place, I'll add that contrary to worldwide belief, I think America is a very cultural place with the best museums on earth, the best film industry (and I'm not talking about Arnie et al, I mean stuff like Network, Apocalypse Now, Bladerunner, Annie Hall), some excellent writers, the best TV (Larry Sanders, Sex In The City)...OK, and the worst TV as well (everything except Larry & SitC). But still the best museums.

And here's one that'll really upset the Euro Snobs, I think Americans are really intelligent. Even in the sticks where people don't know what continent Vietnam is on (60% of Americans couldn't answer this in a poll), you should listen to a sports talk radio show. These people really know their shit.

So you see I really am a friend, just trying to get a bit of discussion going.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
KAUSpilot
Posts: 1659
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 2:15 pm

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 3:52 am

The US is big enough that we get plenty of critical voices from within. The last thing we need is everyone on the planet telling us how to run our country. That is why you will find resentment when you brasenly criticize us. It's like walking down the street and saying "hey lady, you're fat, go exercise. Hey man you're ugly get plastic surgery. Hey boy your mom's ugly so you suck." It's easy to do this when you have the internet facade or the atlantic ocean to hide behind but in actuality you'd never come here and make a public speach about such things. I dare you to come here as a tourist then get up on your political high horse and tell us how to run our country. I know you wouldn't do it, because it's just not the way decent people behave. I certainly don't do such things when I visit other countries. My suggestion to you: Don't do anything here that you would be afraid to do in person.
 
apathoid
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2001 3:19 pm

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 3:58 am

Nice try, slick. But, America is not a democracy as we try so often to explain to you socialists. We are a republic. A democracy may exist inside of the republic, but they are seperate entities and that was by design. You complain about things you don't understand. The greatest freedom we enjoy in America is the one that allows us to openly criticize our government and our fellow citizens.
 
apathoid
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2001 3:19 pm

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 4:00 am

Oh, and by the way, our Constitution does not require us to care what the rest of the world thinks. Personally, I don't care what you or your pathetic little country thinks or does. If you don't vote here, what you think doesn't matter....another of the great benefits of being a republic.
 
PH-BFA
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:22 pm

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 4:25 am

Cedarjet, I read in your profile that your age is between 75 and 84. If this is true I think it is really amazing that someone of your age learned how to operate a computer and internet! My compliments. Furthermore I think that the US can be quite arrogant at times, but I think that when I would live in the US I would be very proud of it too just like the American citizens nowadays(and I know that a lot of people who do not live in the US would be too). But I must say I am perfectly happy here in the Netherlands.

PH-BFA
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 4:40 am

Cedarjet, I've heard a lot of crying from other people that when they critisize the US, they are instantly labelled a 'US-basher' (or whatever). I actually disagree with that. Lots of people have acutely complained about the US, including many Americans themselves. So what. They won't get this label instantly. No, its comes over time. You see, the people around here that do carry the label of 'US-basher' have worked a long time to get it. They go much further than constructive acute critical comments. These people absolutely loathe the USA and its success as a nation. They CONSTANTLY piss on the US at every opportunity and don't so much get mad at US mistakes, but gloat about them. You can tell these people could never bring themselves to say ANYTHING good about the US, minus a few hollow attempts to shake the label. When these people are called on their disproportional hatred, they cry like babies saying they are being labeled because they had the nerve to 'critisize'. Nope. Its a pattern; an obsession. The funny thing is, the motivation behind these people is incredibly transparent, yet they keep crying. They know they loathe the USA and we know they do. But for some reason, they keep crying.

"No country browbeats the rest of the world like America does about how much better it is than everyone else."

I agree with your here. But I don't think that's a bad thing. I guess that's just the way we are. Since you've been here, I'm sure you've noticed that the brow-beating doesn't stop at just pride in the country. Within our borders, we say the same kind of thing to each other based on geographical-region, state, city, sports-team, school, favorite make of car, etc, etc, etc. There's just a lot of pride and competitve spirit in America. I don't know why. Its just the way it is. Most of us really believe this is the best country to live in. We have a lot to be proud of. There are embarrassing issues to, and we generally don't mind discussions about them. But we don't want some whiny envious US-hater to come around and throw it back in our faces in order to keep their charade going that this is such a terrible place. We can smell these clowns a mile away and all the crying in the world won't convince us they simply hate us for who we are and it doesn't matter what we do, they will always hate us.

"And it really gets annoying."

Yeah, I know. Those Ohio people really think their shit doesn't stink Big grin
(referring to the Ohio/Indiana border rivalry)

"I've been to the US on biz and on holiday a total of about 15 times, and I really like the place and it's people. I love tall buildings, hard-working and friendly people, big portions of food, and cheap consumer goods. So it really is my kind of place, don't get me wrong."

I hope every visit is enjoyable for you.

"Shaddap you!"
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4794
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 5:04 am

Apathoid,

The greatest freedom we enjoy in America is the one that allows us to openly criticize our government and our fellow citizens.

And this is different from Europe how?

Personally, I don't care what you or your pathetic little country thinks or does.

Wait... Weren't you one of the crybabies complaining in another thread how all your posts had been deleted and how it was so unfair? Well, when you openly INSULT another nation by calling their homeland a 'PATHETIC little country', you shouldn't be surprised, really. I don't recall the last time anyone calling the US a 'pathetic country' and getting away with it...

If you don't vote here, what you think doesn't matter...

Yeah, that's the attitude... put on the blinkers and close your eyes to the rest of the world.  Yeah sure
 
Guest

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 5:30 am

Apathoid wrote:

>>"Personally, I don't care what you or your pathetic little country thinks or does."



What an embarrassment for your country you are, Apathoid. I have been quick to condemn attacks on the US, so I must condemn your idotic and belittling attack of the UK as well. You should be ashamed of yourself.

To everybody else: Apathoid is a part of a TINY minority of Americans. I call them "brain-dead conservatives." Most conservatives are not like that; in fact, many are reasonable and intelligent people.

Apathoid and his brand of far-right conservatives, however, do not have the mental capability to grasp the concept of a world outside US borders. They are so insecure about their twisted and moronic worldview that they are driven to lash out against people and places they know nothing about. In their perverted little minds, everything different and foreign immediately becomes a threat to their worthless existence. Everyone that does not fit into their simplistic stereotype is a potential danger and must be belittled. They even resort to misinterpreting the Consitition in order to further their backward fundamentalist cause.

They claim to be American patriots, but their views show that they are some of the most un-American people out there.
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 5:38 am

I think what bothers Americans most is that they do a hell of a lot of good for the world, they donate more equipment, they give the most in world aid, they run to everyones rescue when needed, more troops to the UN, to NATO etc, basically America supplies more aid to the world than anyone else by a mile, and get no appreciation for it, so it is hard to stomach the criticism when they don't get it right

Jeremy
 
toady
Posts: 700
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2001 2:36 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 6:12 am

If you don't vote here, what you think doesn't matter...
Problem is, when Cedarjet wrote his words, he wasn't in America. This website may be Swedish owned and used by a large number of Americans but it is, in effect, sitting somewhere in international airspace. Whatever is said by a person of whatever nationality has equal validity. When an American, (or any other national) posts here, he or she is projecting themselves into the international community - he or she is coming into my home and making his or her voice heard here. When we post and read the messages, we may well be physically within our own country's borders but the words themselves do not recognise or respect those borders.
So, if an American poster projects his or her thoughts into Cedarjet's home, he has every right to take umbrage and to pass negative comment. To draw an analogy between doing that and going to America to voice the same opinion is preposterous.


Right, having got that out of the way, I'll make my own comment on the US. I openly wear my 'pro' USA feelings on my sleeve and when all's said and done, I have to say that at the present time America is the better place to live in - compared to my own country, Britain.
However, there is one (and only one) aspect of American culture that grates with me. Yes, it's the implied suggestion that the US is the only country worthy of respect. I guess I could sum it up with this example "The land of the free and the home of the brave". Whether or not Americans take those words at face value (and I really don't know if they do or do not), they imply to the world at large that America, and only America, is free and brave. A more accurate (if somewhat more clumsy!) version would be "One of the lands of some of the free and one of the homes of some of the brave". Seriously, if there's any Western nation that is less free and less brave than America, I've yet to hear of it. I feel that any country that has any measure of international presence should be mindful of how they are perceived by other nations. After all, even a country as large and mighty as the USA is a weak minority when compared to all the rest of the world.

In closing, I must say that this one reservation of mine doesn't lessen my liking of America or my love for my American friends; it just makes me sometimes feel like saying "Oh come on guys, get real...."
 
OO-AOG
Posts: 1395
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 1:24 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 6:43 am

Apathoid

You are typically the kind of person that gives a so bad image of your great country to the rest of the world. Luckily, not all of your compatriots have this bad behavior.
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 6:45 am

"Yes, it's the implied suggestion that the US is the only country worthy of respect. I guess I could sum it up with this example "The land of the free and the home of the brave""

Toady, for what its worth, I've always taken that line to imply that America and Americans are free and brave with no implications either way toward any other citizens.
"Shaddap you!"
 
toady
Posts: 700
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2001 2:36 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 7:33 am

JetService, if truth be told, of the 30+ Americans with whom I have close personal friendships, there's but 1 who fits the stereotype of the brash boastful Yank. All the others share your well-balanced and measured viewpoint.
The crux of the matter (US bashing) is whether the foreigner truly knows America. If I knew only this 1 friend, I too would probably bash America. However, I do have close ties to America and I consider myself to be relatively well-informed about your country and its people. It's this knowledge and intimacy that imparts to me the same well-balanced and measured viewpoint as you have.
I suspect, too, that the few stereotypical Yanks are that way because they don't know anything other than America.

It causes me genuine sadness that so many non-Americans do not display any desire to acquaint themselves with the US. If they were to do so, I think we'd see a lot less of the obnoxious and childish bashing.
On the other hand, it would be nice if more of you guys would come over here once in a while  Smile
 
We're Nuts
Posts: 4723
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2000 6:12 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 7:33 am

The greatest freedom we enjoy in America is the one that allows us to openly criticize our government and our fellow citizens

Seems to me like you and your Gestapo crowd only like to criticize fellow citizens when they criticize our government.
Dear moderators: No.
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 8:10 am

Personally, I don't care what you or your pathetic little country thinks or does

It's a real shame that a great nation like America has people like you with those type of attitudes.

Simply breathtaking ignorance.

In Arsene we trust!!
 
lehpron
Posts: 6846
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:42 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 8:22 am

"The last thing we need is everyone on the planet telling us how to run our country..."

"That is why you will find resentment when you brasenly criticize us"

Some tell me how do these equate? You cannot because they do not. No one on the world is "telling the USA how to run this country", it is just criticism, a natural part of intelligent beings as we realize that we are not the only one's around here!

Perhaps we need to review the definision of Criticize:

Main Entry: crit·i·cize
Pronunciation: 'kri-tuh-"sIz
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -cized; -ciz·ing
Date: 1649
intransitive senses : to act as a critic
transitive senses
1 : to consider the merits and demerits of and judge accordingly : EVALUATE
2 : to find fault with : point out the faults of
- crit·i·ciz·able /-"sI-z&-b&l/ adjective
- crit·i·ciz·er noun
synonyms CRITICIZE, REPREHEND, CENSURE, REPROBATE, CONDEMN, DENOUNCE mean to find fault with openly. CRITICIZE implies finding fault especially with methods or policies or intentions (criticized the police for using violence). REPREHEND implies both criticism and severe rebuking (reprehends the self-centeredness of today's students). CENSURE carries a strong suggestion of authority and of reprimanding (a Senator formally censured by his peers). REPROBATE implies strong disapproval or firm refusal to sanction (reprobated his son's unconventional lifestyle). CONDEMN usually suggests an unqualified and final unfavorable judgment (condemned the government's racial policies). DENOUNCE adds to CONDEMN the implication of a public declaration (a pastoral letter denouncing abortion).


If you do not adhiere to this, you may be flamed, note that I may not be the one doing it. Big grin

How hard it is to ignore criticism and go on with your lives? Some, if not all of you, are so damned hell insecure!
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
Guest

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 8:27 am

Arsenal@LHR wrote:

>>"It's a real shame that a great nation like America has people like you with those type of attitudes."



Agreed. As I've mentioned, while people like Apathoid claim to be patriots, they are some of the most un-American people out there. Fortunately, they represent just a tiny (but despicable) minority of all Americans. True Americans are as disturbed by such displays of brain-dead ignorance as you are.
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 8:32 am

Refreshing to know that it's only a tiny percentage of people that have apathoids views like PHX-LJU mentioned. All the americans i've met in London and the US itself were awesome people, relaxed, gentle, outgoing and a great sense of humour.

I remember he bad-mouthed the whole of the UK in another thread, how ironic is that in the post september 11th days?

In Arsene we trust!!
 
toady
Posts: 700
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2001 2:36 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 8:36 am

He only bad-mouths Britain because he's jealous of this country  Smile Smile
 
N312RC
Posts: 2584
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2000 10:58 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:17 am

Im American, I absolutely love Europe (UK especially), and everything about it (cars, cultures, history, did I mention the cars?, and food (except the UK Big grin ). It is hard for me to take criticism... especially when its senseless blind US bashing that isnt constructive in any way. I really really loathe those people that take it upon themselves to point out every teeny weeny weakness in our country, and just LOVE pointing it out.. I mean, its the biggest form of insecurity I think Ive EVER seen. Their so-called "criticism" isnt even constructive.. They dont offer solutions, and when they actually DO, theyre what most of us would consider fundamentalist crazy stuff. America does do alot of good for the world, but nobody EVER talks about it. Sadly enough, Europe's media has given George Bush a worse reputation than Saddam Insane. Select people here just have this thing about them where they constantly go on and on about how Bush is a moron. All the while Saddam is gassing the Kurds and setting up rape-camps in Kuwait.. Nobody says anything about him. It takes alot to say that youre gonna "go it alone" and attack another country all by yourself, but if thats what has to be done than so be it. I dont wanna be vaporized by Saddam's nukes, if he has any. And if he DIDNT have nukes or chem weapons, why would he object to inspectors? Please, folks.. Heads out of the sand.

George Bush may be plain spoken, but I like it. It brings him down to the level of the common man, the man whos opinion matters most. It makes me proud when George Bush gets choked up or gets watery eyes when September 11th is mentioned. It tells me that he's...well... just like me. A common man with feelings. But to some "other" people, this display would be considered childish.. He's just like us, folks. He has that "childs patriotism", just like most of us do. Tell me you dont get all excited and proud when you see flags and hear bands playing patriotic tunes? I know I do, my spine tingles with pride. But, oh no, I cant say this because some people would consider it "in your face" US imperialism. Since when was I not allowed to be proud? Im not bashing your country, let me be proud of mine.

And one other thing, we havent heard the end of the Pretzel incident yet. Havent YOU ever choked on anything? Havent you ever been eating something and it just happens to "go down the wrong pipe"?? Remind me and I wont let you hear the end of it. Give the guy a break, he's trying to run this superpower and doing a damn good job of it, I think. He's recorded THE highest approval ratings ever attained by a president. That should say SOMETHING..

Oh, and By the way, we dont need any baseless US-bashing from people around the world, we have Berkeley, California, the place where the National Anthem is banned.

Sorry that my argument is kinda all over the charts.. this all flowed into my head as I wrote it.
N/A
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:57 pm

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:27 am

I agree with you Bob

Speaking as a European and a American  Smile
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:34 am

I think Artsyman stated it best. I don't see other countries running around the world helping anyone out. We do it all the time and we don't get JACK SHIT in return, except for the rest of the world dumping on us. That's why we get pissed off about it. I think our government is run by incompetants, and so do most of my friends, and I agree with other countries that think the same thing. But when you rag on us about a screwup, or wanting to do something FOR OURSELF for once, that just irritates me. Bin Laden blew up New York, who came jumping to our aid? What's that? I can't hear you? Oh, nobody? We want to go blow up the terrorists, justifiable, but then we get slammed for being trigger happy. We want to kick Saddam into last week, oh, you don't want us to do that because you want to trade with the dickhole. Granted invasion isn't the way to go, that's just G-Double-Ya trying to look good and failing like the idiot he is.

I think this letter (from a Canadian) put it best (posted here shortly after 9-11-01).

This is from a Canadian newspaper.

AMERICA : THE GOOD NEIGHBOR

Widespread, but only partial news coverage was given recently
to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon
Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator.

What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed
in the Congressional record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans
as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people
on all the Earth. Germany, Japan, and to a lesser extent, Britain and
Italy were lifted out of the debris of War by the Americans who pour-
ed in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of
these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining
debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans
who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled
on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When the earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that
hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened
by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing
about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of
those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States
dollar build its own airplane.

Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing
Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC-10? If so, why
don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia
fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider
putting a man or woman on the moon?

You talk about the Japanese technocracy, and you get radios.

You talk about the German technocracy, and you get automobiles.

You talk about the American technocracy, and you find men on the moon.
Not once, but several times and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs in the store
window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not
pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them,
unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars
from Ma and Pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down
through age, it was Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania
and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose.
Both are still broke.

I can name you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else
raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help
even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I am one Canadian who is damned
tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this
thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to
thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present
troubles.

I hope Canada is not one of those.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 12:01 pm

I think some people are WAY too insecure and sensitive. Living in Europe, I get a daily serving of harsh criticism against the U.S. and its government (favorite topics include GWB II and big cars that guzzle a lot of gas). From my experience, most of these people don't fully understand the U.S. and take the simplier route to judge instead of investigate. But what can you do about this? Why should I get upset and all bent out of shape? To what end?

Carry on. It matters very little to me what anyone thinks of the U.S. Hearing the anthem played does not stir patriotic feelings within my breast and seeing the flag does not make me want to salute. Someone badmouthing the U.S. has absolutely no effect on me. If you wish to engage me in some patriotic brainless dribble you're wasting your time. People are people, no matter where you go. We all have our burdens to bear. Your country of birth has absolutely no bearing in the grand scheme of things as we're all simply trying to do the best with what we have. Anyone who believes their country of birth makes them somehow more "equal" than others are to be pitied and left in isolation.

In the end I'd much rather focus my attention on my goals in life and on those I love.
 
apathoid
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2001 3:19 pm

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 12:10 pm

"...those I love..."

Yourself chief among them, eh Hepkat?

 Insane
 
Skyway1
Posts: 977
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 12:15 pm

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 12:18 pm

Who gives a damn what people say about the United States....just let it roll right off your back.

Just don't call anybody a p**pstain or pig, that's highly offensive!
KNUK, KNUK, KNUK woowoowoo
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 1:13 pm

Looks like we're all a little sensitive. Maybe Americans are quick to take exception to critisism, but on the same token, a lot of you folks get real bent out of shape when we express pride in our country.

Hepkat, it doesn't really matter to me that you don't have patriotic feelings toward America. But you seem to talk as if you're 'above' that; as if you are smarter than the rest of us. I beg to differ. I sense you feel pride fills a vacuum of wisdom and by admitting you refuse to show it, you have some sort of higher ground than the rest of us. On the contrary; your words tell me you lack something I (and suspect others from different countries) have. Pride can be a terrific attribute of a human-being if its genuine.
"Shaddap you!"
 
Guest

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 3:02 pm

It matters very little to me what anyone thinks of the U.S.

This is a very frightening statment. The 10th-grade textbook for one of the five required religion classes taught in all Saudi public schools states: "It is compulsory for the Muslims to be loyal to each other and to consider the infidels their enemy." This hostile view of non-Muslims, which is particularly pronounced in the strict Saudi Wahhabi brand of Islam, is reinforced through Saudi sermons, TV shows and the Internet.

In the early 90s, we learned that another country's faulty financial software can wipe out our Wall Street pportfolios, on Tuesday september 11th, we learned that another country's faulty education software can wipe out Wall Street.

Since Sept. 11, the president of the United States has given numerous speeches about how Islam is a tolerant religion, with no core hostility to the West. But the leader of Saudi Arabia, the keeper of the Muslim Holy places, hasn't given one.

TNNH
 
v jet
Posts: 757
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 9:04 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 3:36 pm

"I think Artsyman stated it best. I don't see other countries running around the world helping anyone out. We do it all the time and we don't get JACK SHIT in return, except for the rest of the world dumping on us."

don't forget all the Australian firefighters who went to the US this year and last year to help you guys fight the Calif and Oregon fires. Didn't see anyone on here falling over themselves to say thanks!

Maybe you don't see other countries running around the world helping anyone out because maybe you don't read online newspapers and stuff about other countries?

Many many countries around the world have very large foreign aid programs, Australia included.
 
Nik
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:58 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 5:04 pm

Ralgha,
"I don't see other countries running around the world helping anyone out."

How arrogant is that??

All Western European countries have soldiers around the world "helping out".
When the Europeans offered soldiers to help the US in Afghanistan, the US didn't want them.
All Western European countries give MORE in foreign aid than the US relative to size.
For many years, Denmark has given ten times as much foreign aid (as a percentage of GDP) as the US, and I don't see anybody on their knees saying thank you.  Insane
Do I care? NO!

Please, educate yourself. Then we can take you seriously.
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 6:37 pm

To be fair Nik Denmark only appears to be so genorous (rather than simply genorous) is because most of it's money goes to Greenland which is only a nominally independent state. Your point about other countries more than pulling their weight though is spot on. Canada, Pakistan, Nigeria and Australia to name just 4 countries, all have more soldiers depolyed with the UN than the US and they are so much smaller.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 6:52 pm

Apathoid: Well, considering that 8 years ago I was an immature and sensitive individual who didn't love himself too much, then yeah. I am proud to say that I now fully love myself and because of this love, I no longer have any issues with insecurity; it's now almost impossible to put me down or cause me to lose sight of the important things in life. You're looking for a weakness where a weakness no longer exists.

JetService: Fair observation, but the truth is, I do not value my existence or country of birth above any other. Being proud of something suggests you've worked hard for it, that you've put in some measure of diligence and energy to see it come to past. I did not work hard to be born in the U.S., at least not any harder than I worked to be born a black American. I am proud of the GOOD that the U.S. does, but I cannot be proud of something I had no hand in achieving. Rather, I ACCEPT that I'm American, there's a distinct difference. What I value above all else is the good works and love in others - that's the only thing that matters in life; not your country of birth, not the color of your skin, not the things you are powerless to affect. I propose that this has nothing to do with lack of pride and everything to do with realizing that it is certain beliefs of pride and close-mindedness that have contributed to the ills of this world.

TNNH: I find it more alarming that any child should be unfortunate enough to have his mind filled with such dribble. In my opinion, THAT is a capital offense! Perhaps if we had less insecurity and more open-mindedness than pride and loyalty, then the World Trade Towers would still be standing and 6 million Jews would not have had to die in vain, among others.
 
Nik
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:58 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 8:11 pm

"To be fair Nik Denmark only appears to be so genorous (rather than simply genorous) is because most of it's money goes to Greenland which is only a nominally independent state."

Money to Greenland isn't foreign aid and therefore not included in the calculations that lead the figures I mentioned in my post.
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 8:51 pm

In the tables I see (mainly in The Economist publications) Denmark always has an * noting the anomaly of Greenland but Denmark is still one of the most generous donor nations even without that. I am sure that money to Greenland is counted as foreign aid by the OECD and such just as British money to Gibraltar or US money to American Samoa is counted that way. Could be wrong but I don't believe so.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 9:54 pm

"Being proud of something suggests you've worked hard for it, that you've put in some measure of diligence and energy to see it come to past."

I see pride coming from people that see themselves having a mutual bond with each other within a group and knowing they can come together to achieve larger goals. Its about being part of a large entity that is strong. Americans are quite good at rallying together for whatever reason. VERY GOOD! I'm sure others are too, and they should be proud as well. You mention Black-Americans; another group that seems to share a mutual bond with each other who can rally together for their interests. You see a lot of pride among blacks. Some groups simply can't or won't do that.

"I did not work hard to be born in the U.S., at least not any harder than I worked to be born a black American."
Of course you can't control where and what you're born as. I feel more fortunate than proud to be born in the US. Its what you do after that and how you're willing to contribute as part of a large body that brings the pride in.
"Shaddap you!"
 
go canada!
Posts: 2886
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2001 1:33 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 10:13 pm

"When the Europeans offered soldiers to help the US in Afghanistan, the US didn't want them."

sorry, nik thats wrong, britain was the first to send troops into afghanistan and as far as im aware troops from italy and france as well as support from germany was forthcoming.

theres a difference from saying something along the lines of "i disagree with the us over koyto,its a bad error since tis the worlds biggest polluter2, you have stated your opinion and backed it up with a fact, everyone know nows your postition, nothing wrong with that.

However when you constantly moan and complain at the usa then thats america bashing, such as stating that the usa faked 9/11 or saying all americans are arrogant etc or saying americas imperialistic and too over controlling.

you have people who complain when the usa is involved in forgein countries, yet whens theres a crisis like yugoslavia they are the same people to complain when the usa doesnt act straight away.

you have people complainging america is imperialistic when it was the european nations with large colonies, further more it was the mongols who ahd an empire, as did the arabs and the turk, yet americas always complained at, even though the prime example of history proves america isnt.

eg World War two, america controlled western europe in 1945, what did it do, restore democracy, it saved france, belguim, holland and western germany as well as italy and north africa and it withdraws, giving these countries aid to rebuild themselves and it also gives aid to japan, yets the chiense get on with it and begins to retreat in its sheel, except for berlin until troops are airlifted, it had ample opportunity to goto war withthe ussr but it didnt and yes i becomes in minor wars because no-oen else will get involved and everyone expects america to pick up the pieces.

When america needs a little packback, its umming and ahhing, only britain has fully come out in support for the usa along with australia over iraq.spain and italy will support and france is changing postition but the same moaning people who expected the usa to save their butts dont want to help when the us and the uk tell the world that theres a madman who will kill them all unless they act.

these people then find every excuse from the world summit to koyto to deflecting attention in an attempt to hid the fact that america helps out other nations and is one, if the not the largest contributer to the un and does deserve our support now and again.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 10:48 pm

Bin Laden blew up New York, who came jumping to our aid? What's that? I can't hear you? Oh, nobody?

Here is another person with a very short memory.

Have you ever heard of a country called "United Kingdon"?

Have you ever heard of Tony Blair?

Have you ever heard his speech about us standing "shoulder to shoulder" with our American friends?

Did you hear about the British emergency and rescue services who went to New York immediately in the aftermath of the attacks?

Do you rememeber we were the first to commit our soldiers into Afghanistan?

Did you see the memorial service held at the US embassy in London on wednesday?

Did you hear or see the minutes silence observed around the UK by millions on wednesday?

Have you heard of our support for a regime change in Iraq lately?

I'd be interested what you think of these acts of solidarity by "oh nobody"  Yeah sure
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sat Sep 14, 2002 10:56 pm

i suppose you didn't read this thread either, in the same forum.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/279195/  Sleepy
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Guest

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sun Sep 15, 2002 1:31 pm

Bin Laden blew up New York, who came jumping to our aid? What's that? I can't hear you? Oh, nobody

1. Bin Laden DID NOT blow up New York.

2. Nobody?

Someone has answered for the United Kingdom and most can tell you that on the 12th September 2001 the Prime Minister of Australia addressed Congress and offered UNCONDITIONAL SUPPORT, which America has had since in Afghanistan. Indeed the Commander in Chief in Afghanistan named the Australian diggers the "best of the best" or something like that.

This attitude is why people react so negatively against Americans in these forums and why we appear to be so anti-american. Some of you claim that you are the most underappreciated people in the world. Well take a close look at the statement this guy has made, Nobody there to support you? Well, i'm hard pressed to think of any country (except a few in the deep ME) who didn't get up and express immediate sympathy and offers of assistance. Indeed, most of the countries have been supporting the Afghanistan offensive either by direct troops or by taking over other operations (Australia is currently commanding the military in the gulf dealing with the embargo of Iraq), or by some other support.

Wouldn't it be right to suggest that the rest of the world is underappreciated by Ralgha? Surely you cannot expect any more than negative responses from countries who have put in a lot to assist. America boasts great wealth, well they're not funding our assistance of their plight, we are .. at great expense to our country who does not enjoy the wealth of the USA. I'm not suggesting that the US should pay as I don't believe that, but certainly countries that offer support should not be so blindly ignored?

No wonder people appear negative.

Additionally to this I want to add some more thoughts...

Americans are a very patriotic bunch. We see them, hand over heart during the anthem, we see them pledging alleigence to the flag. That's great, patriotism is very important and commendable. Unfortunately, like ALL other countries they have a vocal minority who cannot differentiate between patriotism and zealousness. In a country of 285 million a vocal minority can be very large.

All other countries in the world also have their zealous bunch, and their patriotic bunch and their bunch that really doesn't care either way. They go about their lives quite happily until they start hearing comments about how irrelevant they are, their country is or how fantastic America is. When they try and express their patriotism they are told they are anti-american.

When they express their disappointment about foriegn policies that adversely affects others they are told that the powerful rule the world. They are told they are petty, hateful and jealous for not accepting that.

Well, I apologise to all Americans who believe that I am anti-american but I don't believe I am. I am against any policies that adversely affect other nations. I am against action without thought. I am against anyone who tells me that I cannot proudly say that my country is the best in the world.

In addition to that, some people lack in sense of humour at all. The "my country is best" issue is one of country pride but also one of competition. The citizens of many countries often partake in the my country is better pissing competition, generally digging up multitudes of mostly irrelevant facts to prove their points, which are generally countered by the people from the other country with more irrelevant facts. It's usually all in good fun.

Not so with some in here, they hit the delete message button, and they abuse you and call you names. Well, competitiveness is a part of life and addressing it in a mature manner will result in friendly rivalry. Abuse and threats simply peg you for the schoolyard bullies that you are. It is a sign of maturity that you can love your country warts and all, and it's a ludicrous to think that the only person who can criticise a country is it's citizens. America, for instance, was the biggest criticiser during the Australian Tampa issue and when we won the Americas Cup! Obviously there are certain instances when people feel very strongly about things, and that's fine too .. but discussion is healthy as if you let it, it can teach you a lot about the rest of the world.





VH-ADG
 
Guest

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Sun Sep 15, 2002 1:41 pm

Are you trying to say that criticizing American's policy is equal to Bashing America?
 
Staffan
Posts: 3879
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:21 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Mon Sep 16, 2002 2:33 am

"I don't see other countries running around the world helping anyone out. We do it all the time and we don't get JACK SHIT in return, except for the rest of the world dumping on us"

Maybe you are looking in the wrong place? Who is everyone looking up to as the biggest super power in the world? China, Russia or USA? What is the difference between the three?

And other countries do help too, but considering they aren't as big as the US, the size of their actions obviously can't compare to the one's of the US.

Staffan
 
lehpron
Posts: 6846
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:42 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Mon Sep 16, 2002 7:57 am

Ralgha: "I don't see other countries running around the world helping anyone out"

That is only because US newsmedia will only show anything related to the US. If you wanna see world events, watch world news, ignorance is not an excuse for that comment.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Mon Sep 16, 2002 12:11 pm

No country browbeats the rest of the world like America does about how much better it is than everyone else.

Nobody is ACCUSED of this more than anybody. I don't tink Americans in general browbeat other people over this. I honestly think its more a figment of others imagination.

But it's version of democracy stinks..

Your opinion. It's served Americans just fine for 230 years now. That's all that matters.

Supreme Court appointing a president against the wishes of the electorate..

Wrong. George Bush, whether you, or I or anybody likes it or not, won Florida, and it's electoral votes, and with it, the election. Maybe the Supreme Court acted improperly on how it concluded matters, but, as every independtly verified recount has shown, the outcome was the same-Bush won Florida, hence the election, for the millionth time, already.

And I don't rate America's so-called freedom of speech that highly. You can say what you want without arrest, but you will be ostracised by society for a huge range of sentiments, whereas in other countries you can say what you want without fear of arrest OR ostracisation.

So? There is no law saying that anyone here has to accept, without prejudice, anything someone else believes. If you're a open memeber of the KKK, or the Nazi movement, or a sympathizer of Al Qaeda and the like, sure you'll get ostrasized. That's life. Deal with it.

But here's the other thing: if something can't take a bit of criticism or questioning (be it a religion, nation, whatever), then it's not that great.

Tells us volumns about France and the EU, then.

"And it really gets annoying."

Yeah, I know. Those Ohio people really think their shit doesn't stink..


JetService, were those U. of Indiana Cheerleaders I saw the other day grazing on the grass in Indiana?  Big grin
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: From Someone Who (Occasionally) Bashes America

Mon Sep 16, 2002 12:43 pm

1. Bin Laden DID NOT blow up New York.

No, his henchmen hijacked four airliners and knocked down 2 of New Yorks tallest skyscrapers, killing 3000 people.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Gemuser, Hillis and 17 guests