mirrodie
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Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 7:06 am

Don't overreact to the title please.

It was mentioned in another thread that if given the chance to meet Jesus face to face, the user would ask him, "See how many jews died because of what you started?"

Now I persoanlly think that is a rather course view. As a raised Catholic who loves to dissect the very matrix of world religion, the person known as Jesus was a Jew who was exalted and hated.

It is my understanding that his peers, other Jews, asked that he be crucified.

But I do not see how he caused the death of other Jews.
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Marco
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 7:11 am

It's a ridiculous statement by someone who obviously who knows NOTHING about Christianity. God chose the Jews as His people, and Jesus was born a Jew. So that accusation is wrong and it's very provocative.

I'd like to see Lubcha pull out a verse from the Bible to justify that accusation. We live in a civil society and everyone should have the common decency to respect other people's beliefs(yes as surprising as it sounds even those people called Christians), not generalize . That's disgusting.

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Marco
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 7:17 am

By the way even the Muslims think of Jesus as a great person. We Christians believe He's the son of God and they don't, but they still consider Jesus as one of the most important, if not the most important of their prophets (I as a Christian think He's the son of God, but anyway). History tells us Jesus was an awesome peace maker (He could have easily fought with the guards who were taking Him to Calvary, but He chose not to fight). So no Jesus is not blame and He should be respected more, unless some of you people oppose a message of peace and love. You don't have to believe in it to respect it by the way so no I'm not forcing my ideas on any of you.
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777236ER
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 7:18 am

Consider how many people have died in the name of religion. Bet its more than all the non-religious wars combined. WW2? Forget it.

Yeah, way to go Jesus/God/Allah etc etc.
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heavymetal
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 7:18 am

Marco it has been my experience on these forums that you get offended by practically any scholarly debate about the merits or (YES!) lack thereof of the life of Christ, the Faith he gave birth to and the myriad of seperate directions that faith has taken since it started. Is your faith so fragile that it cannot withstand even that which you find distasteful?

There is NOTHING in this original post that is flame bait and disrespectful.

As to the question of the original post, the words and life of Christ seemed to blame behavior and value rather than any one structure that they sat within. So, no. I don't think Jesus was to blame for anything beyond the last minute of his mortal life on the cross.
 
heavymetal
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 7:23 am

Marco

Having re-read the thread I can see now that you didnt intend this comment for the original post, but for one that was obviously deleted. I stand corrected and apologize, but I do stand by my statement that you get a little overly touchy on this subject of Faith.
 
Marco
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 7:24 am

Heavymetal there is nothing wrong with questioning one's beliefs, but making a generalization like that is insulting. If someone said that Islam is all about terrorism because of Sept 11th wouldn't you disagree with that? Using the same logic, one shouldn't make provocative generalizations about Christianity. I'm surprised there are people who actually think this way in North America. I hope we can reach a day when everyone respects each other...
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Marco
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 7:26 am

Heavymetal yes that's correct to clear things up, this thread is in response to lubcha's comments in another thread. I am touchy because these are my beliefs that are being attacked and they're so wrong. When I'm in Church we are never taught this kind of garbage. It's totally wrong and to me it's very personal.
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777236ER
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 7:44 am

When I'm in Church we are never taught this kind of garbage

>>whoop whoop<< biased teaching alert!!
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Marco
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 7:46 am

777236ER,

What my beliefs are is none of your business. In fact you're showing bias towards me in your statement. Chew on that for a while...
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us330
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 7:47 am

The original post that brought this thread to light, "given the chance to meet Jesus face to face, the user would ask him, "See how many jews died because of what you started?"" does have some historical merit to it. Granted, while it is true that Christianity didn't "burst" onto the scene, the path to its establishment as a globally-worshipped religion is strewn with anti-Semitism.
For one, a early radical belief of Christianity (check this week's Time article on "Abraham: Father of Three Faiths) is that it was supposed to replace Judaism, and thus sparked such things as the Spanish Inquisition, persecution of, and general mistreatment of the Jews, including the forming of some totally bogus but widespread myths believed to be fact by the relatively uneducated population of Europe, like that the Jews were Christkillers, which formed the base of centuries of anti-Semitism.
Thus, an argument can be made that Jesus was responsible for the death of many Jews, albeit a fairly indirect one and one based on the actions of radical Christians, butt those who followed the original purpose of Christianity, cannot be held responsible for the radicals actions other than having the knowledge that misinterpretation of their faith led to the death of many Jews as well as other minorities.
 
777236ER
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 7:48 am

That's not my point. Your statement that you're not taught about this "garbage" in church (!) is a bit rediculous. Do you think the church is going to tell you how many people have died in the name of Jesus/God/Allah etc etc? Of course not. They're going to tell you how great god is and how you have to say 100 lord's prayers a day or go to HELL etc etc.

Can you not see how your view might be biased?
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Marco
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 8:03 am

That's not my point. Your statement that you're not taught about this "garbage" in church (!) is a bit rediculous.

So basically what you're saying is that you want Christians to be taught this kind of garbage in Church?

Do you think the church is going to tell you how many people have died in the name of Jesus/God/ etc etc? Of course not.

If those people knew Jesus in the first place they wouldn't have committed those atrocities so we do not consider them as Christians, and no we do not think they died in the name of God. Also at a Christian youth conference in Abu Dhabi we discussed all of these issues and how we have to set an example for people and tell them that as Christians we too think they were wrong and that they weren't doing God's work. At Church we regularly have these kind of discussions, many of these issues were actually discussed by Jesus in the Bible. I'm glad you're showing us your prejudices 77236ER, is this being "open-minded"?

They're going to tell you how great god is and how you have to say 100 lord's prayers a day or go to HELL etc etc.

777236ER, you obviously don't have a clue what Christianity is about. So if that's what you think Church is about then fine, but if that was it I wouldn't be a Christian, just keep that in mind.

Can you not see how your view might be biased?

Nope I'm not biased at all, I have the world's view and the Christian view and I can defend myself using what I know. You, on the other hand, have no knowledge on Christianity so you're making all of these comments from one angle. Do you see how you're biased?
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777236ER
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 8:10 am

You STILL miss my point! Learning about religion from inside the church is like learning about communist Russia back in 50s America! Or about Nazi Germany in 40s Britain. The view is biased. Will the church EVER admit to its failings?! Not to the level that someone independant will.

So basically what you're saying is that you want Christians to be taught this kind of garbage in Church?

You just dismissing it as garbage straight off it pretty telling if you ask me...

Also at a Christian youth conference in Abu Dhabi we discussed all of these issues and how we have to set an example for people and tell them that as Christians we too think they were wrong and that they weren't doing God's work.

Fair enough, but that's not the point I'm making. The church as a whole will never admit that Christianity (whatever that may be) has made mistakes in the past.

At Church we regularly have these kind of discussions, many of these issues were actually discussed by Jesus in the Bible.

Will you ever admit that Christianity and the church has been wrong in these discussions? I doubt that you will. Do you discuss how many people have died as a DIRECT result of the birth of Christ/Jesus? And what's the conclusion? I'm guessing its that these people are not TRUE followers of Christ, or those that killed mis-read what was written in the Bible, right?

Nope I'm not biased at all, I have the world's view and the Christian view and I can defend myself using what I know. You, on the other hand, have no knowledge on Christianity so you're making all of these comments from one angle. Do you see how you're biased?

Maybe I am biased, I'm looking at it from what is (in my eyes) and objective point of view. You can't really claim that my point of view is clouded when you're analysing Christianity and religion in general from WITHIN the church. You're not biased? Will you even admit that "religion" has caused lots and lots of suffering? Will you admit that as a DIRECT result of the birth of Jesus, lots and lots of people have died and suffered?
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Beefmoney
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 8:27 am

Ohhhhhh Mirrodie. Look what you have started Smile We got lucky on the other thread about Islam and Christianity, very little flaming going on there. But, this one seems to have taken a different road. Anywho, the Romans had just as big a part in the crucifixion of Jesus as the Jews if not more so. Also, Jesus did not somehow cause the killing of the Jews. Jesus and Christianity, as I have said before, promotes peace. Just because others have taken the words of Jesus and the Bible, twisted them to fit their own perverted ways, and then claimed that what they are doing is what God wants them to do, does not, in any way, make Jesus reponsible for that.

Lets say that one day I said "We should not participate in rituals based in other religions, because that may cause us to stray from God." Now, If someone decided to interpret that as "We should try to kill the other religions because they may hurt our religion", that does not make me responsible for the death of whoever the people kill. I did not tell them to go out and slaughter the other religion, they only twisted my words to fit their way of life.

Its the same way with Jesus. Our sin has caused us to corrupt the meaning behind what Jesus taught us and gave to us.

Now, lets all try to calm down and have a thoughtful and respectful discussion, although there is about a 5% chance of that happening Smile

 
777236ER
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 8:32 am

Lets say that one day I said "We should not participate in rituals based in other religions, because that may cause us to stray from God." Now, If someone decided to interpret that as "We should try to kill the other religions because they may hurt our religion", that does not make me responsible for the death of whoever the people kill. I did not tell them to go out and slaughter the other religion, they only twisted my words to fit their way of life.

You'd have to think a "god" would realise this.

Our sin has caused us to corrupt the meaning behind what Jesus taught us and gave to us.

Wouldn't God realise this? Why did he make the Bible so ambiguous? Why, when there are billions of people who aren't Christians, is he not sending angels etc to convert us? Why is all we have a BOOK that was written not by him, but humans?

Yet the Christians among us use the almost excuse-sounding reason "oh, it's OUR sin."

Whether mis-interpreted or not, religion HAS caused the suffering of countless people.
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nonrevman
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 8:55 am

No, Jesus is not to blame. He said that the greatest commandment was to love the LORD God completely. Next after that, He stated that we should love our neighbor. It does not sound like a mandate for violence to me.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 9:13 am

I blame Jesus for everything. What a bastard.
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cedarjet
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 9:16 am

Only kidding. I'm sure he was great. And I also blame some stuff on Dubya, my cat and the Earth Wind & Fire brass section.
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mirrodie
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 9:30 am

Nice save, Cedarjet.

Well, I only posed the question in order to entice scholarly talk about the subject. The other thread was out what you'd say to someone if you met them face to face. That thread began to veer from its topic.

So I extend the invite to Redngold, Marco, Lubcha and anyone else who can stand discussion in a mature manner.

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Beefmoney
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 10:10 am

#1. Mirrodie, I really hope you didnt take offense at any of my playful joking earlier, But I think that I may have offended you. I really only said that because you seemed to be the guy who would be able to understand my joking. But Im just getting a little whiff of annoyance at me from your last post. Again, I really hope you didnt take any offense at anything I said. But then again, its probably just my imagination.


#2. 777236ER, your right. God should have known. And he DID know. But theres nothing he can do about it without violating his rules that he set for us. He gave us free will, He cannot send down angels everywhere to force us to believe Him. He has given us the Bible, which has more than enough information in it to show who He is and His plan. If you cannot trust in that, then you probably will not have enough faith anyway to successfully get through the trials and troubles that you will face as a Christian. The Bible weeds out those who cant accept from those that can. It says in the Bible
"...But a natural man will not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he does not understand it, for it is spiritually appraised..."

We are able to understand the things God has shown us because we have allowed Him to come into our lives and show us. And as it says in that verse, those of you who are not believers will not understand the Bible or God because you do not have the Holy Spirit within you. Thats why we try so hard to show you what God has for you. If you can let God in for a split second, you will start to understand what God is all about.
 
mirrodie
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 11:00 am

Beefmoney, don't worry, I didn't take offense.  Smokin cool It's good.

I just wanted to make sure we can all talk here without stabbing each other, flaming, etc. The remark wasn't meant at any one in particular.


Ahh, got to go. My Jewish fiance awaits her Catholic man.  Wink/being sarcastic
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Marco
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 11:11 am

You STILL miss my point! Learning about religion from inside the church is like learning about communist Russia back in 50s America!

But we live in a secular society so as soon as we leave the Church we're confronted with people like you, so you're example is incorrect.

Or about Nazi Germany in 40s Britain. The view is biased. Will the church EVER admit to its failings?! Not to the level that someone independant will.

It's not about the "Church". The Church is made up of people, and those are the components of the Church. People make mistakes. People are not perfect and some are perverse and ruin the message.

You just dismissing it as garbage straight off it pretty telling if you ask me...

Telling of what? Lubcha claimed that it was because of Jesus that Jews were killed. I replied by saying we are not taught that kind of crap in Church. You're not making any sense.

Fair enough, but that's not the point I'm making. The church as a whole will never admit that Christianity (whatever that may be) has made mistakes in the past.

The Catholic Church apologized to the Jews. Everyone apologized to the Jews. We Christians admit (just like I am now) that some of us have given us a bad name but that is not what Christianity is about.

Will you ever admit that Christianity and the church has been wrong in these discussions?

Not Christianity, churches have made mistakes but thats because they followed their own agenda, not God's. One of the commandments is "thou shalt not kill". That explains itself.

I doubt that you will. Do you discuss how many people have died as a DIRECT result of the birth of Christ/Jesus?

But Christ came to save us, so that we wouldn't have to face eternal separation and whether you're willing to admit it, His sacrifice was and still is an awesome gesture.

And what's the conclusion? I'm guessing its that these people are not TRUE followers of Christ, or those that killed mis-read what was written in the Bible, right?

If you're suggesting that it's in the Bible, back up your accusations with facts, not just hot air. (It's ironic to see you accusing Christianity of preaching hatred, and not while ago you were defending Islam (not that I have anything against Muslims)). My question to you is why do you defend every religion and only mock Christianity?

Maybe I am biased, I'm looking at it from what is (in my eyes) and objective point of view.

But I thought you implied I was biased and you weren't...so according to your logic your wrong...

You can't really claim that my point of view is clouded when you're analysing Christianity and religion in general from WITHIN the church.

You're putting too much emphasis on the Church. Christianity isn't about the church, it's a lifestyle which you choose and Church is just a once-a-week thing. It's a time of worship and fellowship but it's not necessarily the only thing Christianity is about. Please explain your point of view because I'm not sure I understand what you're going on about.

You're not biased?

Who isn't?

Will you even admit that "religion" has caused lots and lots of suffering?

Which is why religion means nothing to me. To me it's not about religion or being religious, I have a Christian lifestyle and a relationship with God. I don't view it as a set of rules or a religion. I believe in Christ and God only. Religion has caused alot of deaths over the years but that still doesn't mean it's bad. Religion has saved millions from starving. Religion has given hope to millions. Religion has given us morals and laws (yes I know, you don't think so, but I do).

Will you admit that as a DIRECT result of the birth of Jesus, lots and lots of people have died and suffered?

And till this day every year 150,000 Christians are killed because they believe in Him. A Biblical prophesy (by the way). Till this day millions are starving in Southern Sudan because they believe in Jesus. They are persecuted in China, India, Indonesia, etc...

What's ironic is Jesus came to prevent bloodshed, to promote peace and human values. Now people like you are claiming that it's because of Him that people suffer. It just goes to show how the devil has taken control, eh?

Good night triple seven Big grin
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Beefmoney
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 11:21 am

Good to hear Mirrodie. I just get upset with myself if I make anyone angry. Its somthing that I really try not to do,and when I do I get pretty down on myself for it. I really dont know why, but it seems to keeps me up at night Smile

And congrats about your recent engagement Big thumbs up
 
BarfBag
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 11:25 am

Till this day millions are starving in Southern Sudan because they believe in Jesus. They are persecuted in China, India, Indonesia, etc...

Christians persecuted in India ? You must be nuts  Smile They're (along with the much smaller Parsi community) probably the most well-to-do communities in India.
 
Marco
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 11:28 am

persecuted in India ? You must be nuts They're (along with the much smaller Parsi community) probably the most well-to-do communities in India.

What about the Christian missionaries that were burnt to death? What about the Churches that were burnt down?

In general Christians are treated well in India (it's a democracy) but there are outbreaks sometimes, and it was just an example I was using!
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mirrodie
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 11:32 am

Thanks  Smokin cool

OK, so what if I said this: Jesus may not exist.

I mean, my g/f, wait, FIANCE, (still takes getting used to) and I discuss this all the time. Religion and faith are man-made inventions. Judaism and Christianity hold many virtues in common.

But in Judaism, a messiah never came right? And in Christianity, he did. So aren't Christians really just impatient Jews? Maybe I am being funny, but its a thought.

Maybe these impatient Jews really wanted to believe a Messiah had come. And who was J.C.? The very living, breathing form of God's word made flesh. Think about it: J.C. was the father the son and the holy spirit, that's what I learned.

But He is God's word made flesh. Wow, isn;t that one really impressive way for religion to teach people how to live? Take all great virtues and place it into one human and build a religion around it.

Christianity and Judaism shares so many virtues and Jews are God's chosen loved ones. Does that mean the impatient Jews (Christians) aren't chosen?

So isn't JC really an ideal of how to live?

I do love religious discussion. It boasts such a realm of excitement.

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Beefmoney
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 11:48 am

OK Mirrodie, Im a Christian and I believe that the Messiah was Jesus Christ. I believe this based on one simple fact......Jesus said he was the Messiah. The Jews had a totally different vision of what the Messiah would be when he came. The Jews were confident that the Messiah would be a king ruling on earth, and lead a military revolution against the Jews oppressors. In reality, at least what I believe is reality, Jesus was/is a king, but is a king ruling in Heaven and not a "military messiah" as the Jews believe. The Jews still hold to that way of thought today, that the Messiah still has not come. While the Jews wait for the first appearance of the Messiah, we are in preparation for the 2nd and final coming of the Messiah, who we believe is Jesus, and he said that himself.
 
BarfBag
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 12:09 pm

What about the Christian missionaries that were burnt to death? What about the Churches that were burnt down?

The murder of Graham Staines was certainly a despicable act. I can't remember the last time I ever heard of any church being vandalized in India in recent years, though you might have your sources. However, neither amounts to persecution of their faith at large, I'm afraid. There have been far more church bombings in the US, for example. More importantly, your statement sees such acts in complete isolation.

Attempts to proselytize Hindus, especially those from poorer backgrounds, leads to resentment. This is particularly so because Hinduism does not advocate organized proselytization; while conversion to Hinduism occurs, it is not mandated or encouraged the way Christian missionaries propagate their belief. Such attempts are often as in-your-face as distributing Christian pamphlets outside a temple during a festival gathering, as I have seen myself on more than one occasion.

While no one denies their right to propagate their religion in any way they wish, such activities don't exactly gain admiration. Further, Christian organizations in India (as a minority religion) do not have their income audited/taxed by the Government, and very generous support from outside means that in numerous documented instances, especially in the case of mass-conversion of tribals, faith in Christianity was practically bought. To then judge acts against Christians in isolation as persecution is just plain wrong. This is in no way an apology for any acts against any religion, but just serves to indicate that a picture of Christianity in India as a small minority religion on the sidelines against an overbearing Hindu faith, is grossly distorted.

In general Christians are treated well in India (it's a democracy) but there are outbreaks sometimes, and it was just an example I was using!

Oh please. They're not merely "well treated" in India, as if they're some guests we deign to have around; they're full-fledged citizens with a history dating back to the time St.Thomas came to India nearly 2 millennia ago, fully free to propagate their beliefs, and with a very strong presence in various fields, from business and government (Defence Minister George Fernandes and Election Commissioner James Michael Lyngdoh, to quote two examples) to arts and entertainment.
 
lehpron
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 12:13 pm

Marco, tell me something, you said this:

"Heavymetal there is nothing wrong with questioning one's beliefs, but making a generalization like that is insulting."

Then you go off contradicting yourself with this:

"I'm surprised there are people who actually think this way in North America..."

This generalization is insulting (!!) as you assume that Northern America is only of Christian faith!  Angry



Dude, this is why your arguments have a tendency to tick people off, you think one-sidedly and only consider your side of the issue. When asked about the "otherside", you yourself generalize yet attack others for generalizing you.

What makes it so difficult to put yourself acurately into someone elses shoes?
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
Marco
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 12:30 pm

Marco, tell me something, you said this:

"Heavymetal there is nothing wrong with questioning one's beliefs, but making a generalization like that is insulting."

Then you go off contradicting yourself with this:

"I'm surprised there are people who actually think this way in North America..."

This generalization is insulting (!!) as you assume that Northern America is only of Christian faith!


No actually that wasn't my point. Do I have to say in very simple terms so people like you can understand? Don't take what I said out of context. I was talking about respecting other people's beliefs. I was condemning those who weren't respecting my faith, because we live in a civilized and democratic society, where everyone should be respected. Read my posts more carefully next time.

Dude, this is why your arguments have a tendency to tick people off,

"Dube", I just proved you wrong and I don't care if I tick people off, these are my beliefs.

you think one-sidedly and only consider your side of the issue.

So in order for me to be a normal person I have to throw away my culture, my faith and my beliefs and conform to your idea of being normal. That's not being one-sided now, is it?  Insane

When asked about the "otherside", you yourself generalize yet attack others for generalizing you.

Where have I generalized?



What makes it so difficult to put yourself acurately into someone elses shoes?


Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
Marco
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 12:35 pm

Barfbag,

First of all a couple of years ago there were alot of Churches burnt down, and alot of Christians WERE persecuted in India. That's why there were demostrations for peace in Bombay and Delhi.

Secondly, the Hindus that converted weren't forced to do so, they made this decision out of their own free will. Your point is not really valid.

Don't take this too personally but India is a democratic country that respects human rights but there has been persecution, albeit to a lesser extent, and you cannot deny that. Obviously the majority of the Indian population is very tolerant, also it was just one example, don't get too technical.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
Beefmoney
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 12:40 pm

Commenting on your other thoughts, Mirrodie, Yes, Jesus really is an ideal representation of how to live. But thats was not his primary reason for existance. His primary goal, obviously, was to bear the sins of everyone past and future, so they would not be condemned to Hell automatically. He was just so perfect because he was God, but he also had fears and worries, just like a human, because he was also a real person. He prayed constantly in the days before he was crucified, praying that this extreme trial he was about to go through would be relieved from him. He prayed many times in the hope that he would not have to go through it. But he understood that It was Gods will for him to go through it, and He did go through it.

And yeah, these religious discussions are very intruiging, just as long as everyone keeps their cool and discusses in a mature manner. I look forward to some nice discussion on religion most every time I log on to A.Net. Either that or some thread about In-N-Out Burger. They are both inviting topics Smile
 
lubcha132
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 12:46 pm

Lubcha speaks.


Yes Jesus was a Jew, but he went about things in his own way. He misused powers such as using certain names of G-d to do stuff (like fly or walk on water) that was not necessary. The great Rabbis, who knew a lot more than he did about spritual stuff like this didn't use that. It was kinda like the kid in the classroom showing off something while the teacher was trying to teach something important.

If Jesus was the messiah, all the jews would be in the land of Israel, we would have the 3rd Temple, and the Sanhedrin. According to some people, if the Messiah came 2000 yrs ago the world wouldn't be here anymore. But i'm sitting here in New Jersey the world is in disorder and as far as i know the Messiah is not here. we would know.

OK back to the point-

I am sorry for offending everyone by making that comment. The reason i posted it was because someone (well i won't mention names we can all figure it out) was posting how great Jesus was etc. and the first thing that popped into my mind was the crusades and the inquisition.

I have nothing wrong with any religion; not even the people in India that sacrifice people. I also don"t have any problems with Muslims because i know its not the entire religion that's causing them to kill my people. I have a lot of friends who are Christians and i don't even think about any of this stuff when i'm with them.

what it seems from history is that Jesus is great only if you're on the inside. The Crusades showed how nice "his followers" were to Jews and Muslims (who from what i understand were respectful of Jesus). What about the Inquisition? And the fact that there are several stories of people in 20th century America that still think that Jews have horns? Now i understand that not every Anti-semitic rally in history was backed by the Church (Hitler for instance) but it hasn't always been a love relationship.

I'm sorry to have offended anyone, and if you have any questions about Judaism please contact me.

Lubcha
 
BarfBag
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 1:00 pm

First of all a couple of years ago there were alot of Churches burnt down, and alot of Christians WERE persecuted in India. That's why there were demostrations for peace in Bombay and Delhi.

Again, I must disagree. While communal tension is nothing new to India (note the terrorist attack on a temple just yesterday, killing 30, followed by a Government-imposed strike to cool tempers), your statement is greatly exaggerated. Nor can I, as an Indian who reads more than half a dozen local news sources along with foreign ones on a daily basis, corroborate your statement of any significant event where India's Christian population ever came close to persecution, much less to an extent where they had to hold 'peace demonstrations'.

Secondly, the Hindus that converted weren't forced to do so, they made this decision out of their own free will. Your point is not really valid.

Wrong. That is the very point I tried to make - that it was not as much a case of free will or desire to embrace Christianity for spiritual reasons as much as monetary inducement, that raises resentment. When this happens on a significant scale, it is not hard to realise that there'd be opposition. There's enough sh1t happening on the basis of religion all over the world - N.Ireland, the Middle-East, India&Pakistan and even the Chinese going after Falun Gong - to know that it's not exactly a subject that brings out unbiased, impartial judgement from people.

No one argues with an individual's right to practice a religion of his choice in India, but taking advantage of the poverty to proselytize is hardly something a faith like Christianity needs to do. Note, from your own examples, both the killing of the missionary and the church vandalization occured in isolated rural areas, not anywhere near urban metropolises. India more often than not goes out of its way to accomodate its minorities, such as by allowing the Christian institutions to operate without audit of their finances, or subsidizing Hajj pilgrimages of something like 50-75000 Muslims every year, something no Islamic nation, including those poorer than India, does. Hinduism receives no such special treatment, and I would argue that neither should any other. The Government's brief extends only to providing people freedom to practice their religion, not to encourage one, often to the detriment of another. To take incidents against minorities in isolation and brand it as persecution is a very misleading argument.
 
lehpron
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 1:11 pm

Marco, you proved your point and I bought it, all the way to this statement:

"So in order for me to be a normal person I have to throw away my culture, my faith and my beliefs and conform to your idea of being normal. That's not being one-sided now, is it? "

What am I supposed to say to this? Where in what I said did I ask you to throw away your being? Accepting of others DOES NOT IMPLY throwing away yours, simply incorporate into yours! It is called "reducing one's ignorance."
 Smile/happy/getting dizzy

C'mon man, I thought you were smarter than that, but you assumed I implied something that I did not, there could not be any other interpretation than the one you just missed. Again, what am I supposed to say about that, you assume too much without even asking what's up with me!

Go ahead ask. (You had better not give me the indication that you already know before hand; that will simply prove that you are not interested and therefore still ignorant since you'd still be arguing blindly with me.) Be sure to make it specific so I do not miss your point; also keep it within topic too. Big grin

I'm waiting...
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
Beefmoney
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 1:24 pm

Ohhhhh why do people keep using the actions of twisted and corrupted people to show how God and Jesus are bad? Look, Just because, like I have said quite a few times before, a handful of corrupt and horribly sinful people have done absolutley horrible things does not in any way reflect the nature or personality of God or Jesus. I have heard people say that they have proof God doesnt exist, and their proof is the Crusades. THOSE TWO THINGS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER!!! Using the actions of men to show the character of God doesnt make sense. Thats like saying the founder of Gateway computers is evil because some people who bought Gateway computers decided to smash some Dell computers. They are not interelated!

And Lubcha, find me any evidence to support any of the claims you have made against Jesus. Show me where it says that the Rabbis knew more about spiritual things than Jesus. After all, the Rabbis and other "spiritual leaders" back during Jesus' time were using the temples as marketplaces! That does not show me any evidence to support your claims.
 
lubcha132
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 1:29 pm

After all, the Rabbis and other "spiritual leaders" back during Jesus' time were using the temples as marketplaces!

where did you hear that?
 
lubcha132
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 1:31 pm

i'm staying out of this. everybody gets their own sides of the story and its just gonna turn into a J vs. C vs. M battle.
 
Beefmoney
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 1:49 pm

Lubcha, have you read where Jesus sees the temple being used by the priests as a place to sell animals, and Jesus become furious with them for ruining the temple in this way, and Jesus goes through the temple releasing the animals, overturning the moneychangers tables and moving everyone out of the temple? The Rabbis and Priests were using the temple to take advantage of people, because the people needed sacrifices, so they essentially set up shop inside the temple and desacrated it beyond belief. Jesus had a very good right to be furious wth them.
 
ctbarnes
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 1:52 pm

I can't know for sure, but I would imagine Jesus answering with a wry smile:

"Don't blame me, I was the first one who got killed..."

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
tbar220
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 2:41 pm

Hrmm....what an odd debate. Maybe I should read this book called the...oh...um....New Commandment? Appears that this book causes quite a lot of controversy among peers.
NO URLS in signature
 
cfalk
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 3:45 pm

Hey Ctbarnes, nice to see (read) you again. Good quote.

First off, regarding 777236ER:

You STILL miss my point! Learning about religion from inside the church is like learning about communist Russia back in 50s America! Or about Nazi Germany in 40s Britain. The view is biased. Will the church EVER admit to its failings?! Not to the level that someone independent will.

What a screwed up statement. Have you ever taken logic courses? Where I went to school it was mandatory, but apparently that is not the case any more.

But the main point is that the Church (the Roman Catholic Church, anyway) HAS expressly and publicly admitted their fault in the past, in particular the, shall we say, "excessive zeal" of its missionaries. Pope John Paul II has been particularly forthcoming about the Church's failings.

The Church is not perfect. Nobody says it is. The Church is an institution built by human beings - inspired by God, but built by humans, who are not perfect. So the Church and its faithful must understand that relationship, and understand that mistakes (sins) happen, but that the whole point of Christianity is to learn from mistakes so that they are not repeated. This is the whole idea of the forgiveness of sin. The idea is that you realize that you've done wrong, you admit it, you sincerely express remorse for it, and it is forgiven. The remorse part is the important one. If you confess to cheating on your wife, and then afterwards go to your girlfriend's place for a little fun, then the remorse was not sincere, so the sin is unforgiven.

Like men, the Church as an institution also makes mistakes. The Inquisition, for instance. But if the Pope, representing the Church, admits the sin, and asks for forgiveness, the Christian response must be, "Go forth, and sin no more"

BarfBag:

You claim that Christians in India are not the target of repression. My wife is an Indian Christian, and her (Christian) family all live there. I spent 2 years working in India, plus all the time I've spent with my In-Laws.

I recall practically every day opening the newspaper and reading of some Christian priest being attacked or killed. The Christians must keep a low profile. All my in-laws have 2 given names, one Christian name, like James, and a more indigenous name, like Vijay. At work, he will only be known as Vijay, although at home he is James, because they will often be discriminated against if it known in professional circles that they are Christian, especially in the government. My father in law was the only Chief Secretary to the Indian Government to be a Christian, but he kept his religion secret until his retirement. And all the Christians I met there were far from reluctant convertees. They are generally far more devout Christians than European and American Christians.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Hepkat
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 7:03 pm

Don't you all realize you're perpetuating exactly that ignorance which has kept humanity in the dark all these centuries? If there's an all-loving God, wouldn't it stand to reason that he's thinking of EVERYONE, not just Jews, or Christians, or Indians?

We will realize in the future, most unfortunately, that every religion is the same. Each religion has their Messiah, their Bible, their version of "God", but in the end, they're all saying the same thing. Don't you guys realize that one religion can NOT work for everyone? Each culture is different, each language is different, each country is different. One religion cannot possibly reach out to every individual in this world. In his unfathomable Love, God has seen to it that each person has a chance, that each person has a version of religion to fit their cultural understanding. Insisting that YOUR religion is the best, or THE one is blasphemy, and is in direct contradiction to the will of God.

There is no need to argue between Judaism or Christianity. The two cannot be reconciled. They were "invented" for different peoples living in different circumstances at different times. Comparing Judaism with Christianity, or with Hinduism or with Islam is like comparing cats and dogs to see which is better. Each religion emphasizes a specific nature of God, but none is better or worse than the other.

In the future, as humanity becomes even more enlightened, high priests of all religions will begin to realize this, and will begin to unify their voices and reconcile their differences. This will be a great day, for all the pieces of the puzzle will come together and we'll finally see the true face of God. The knowledge and power derived from this worldwide combined effort will herald in an unparalleled era of peace and tranquility. Could this be the great Temple, or the Second Coming or the Nirvana that we're all waiting for?
 
jm-airbus320
Posts: 294
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 9:54 pm

I find it often ridiculous and humourous how people always tend to lay blame at God's feet. Did God ever give a directive to anyone to annihilate anyone in his name? (note that line carefully.) I think not, so lets stop trying to blame God for what our own selfish agenda's are pushing.

Jm-airbus320
 
heavymetal
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 10:57 pm

Did God ever give a directive to anyone to annihilate anyone in his name?

Sorry to have to do this to ya. JM-, but......from the Christian Bible alone:


“And when the Lord thy God hath delivered [a city] into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself” (Deuteronomy 20:13-14).

“And David commanded his young men, and they slew them, and cut off their hands and their feet, and hanged them up over the pool in Hebron” (2 Samuel 4:12).

"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass” (1 Samuel 15:3).

"And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them” (Deuteronomy 7:2). "

“But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against his people, till there was no remedy. Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand” (2 Chronicles 36:16-17).

“And Amaziah said to the man of God, But what shall we do for the hundred talents which I have given to the army of Israel? And the man of God answered, The Lord is able to give thee much more than this. . . . And Amaziah strengthened himself . . . and smote the children of Seir ten thousand. And other ten thousand left alive did the children of Judah carry away captive, and brought them unto the top of the rock, and cast them down from the top of the rock, that they all were broken in pieces” (2 Chronicles 25:9-12).

Just a few of many...so the answer, if the God of the Bible is your God, is yes.


 
cfalk
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 11:19 pm

Heavymetal,

Just to clarify, those are all passages from the Old Testament. The New Testament overruled many of the Old Testament's practices, including the treatment of those not of the same religion. The New Testament is what differentiates Christianity and Judaism.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
heavymetal
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 11:49 pm

Cfalk...

Therein lies the problem doesn't it? Since Christ's last gasp, it's been nothing but "just to clarify"...... from a whole helluva lotta people who aren't Jesus Christ.
 
Jan Mogren
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Sat Sep 28, 2002 12:17 am

Heavy,
about 2000 years to adjust to the new rules ain't enough for you?
/JM
AeroPresentation - Airline DVD's filmed in High Definition
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6789
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RE: Is Jesus To Blame?

Sat Sep 28, 2002 12:29 am

"-Good Morning my neighbors!
-Hey, F%&$ you!
-Yes! Yes! F%* you too!! " -eddie murphy in coming to america, LOL
one of the funniest scenes Ive seen. Was just watching it. LOL

He was just so perfect because he was God, but he also had fears and worries, just like a human, because he was also a real person Right, I find that SO profound! I am trying to speak about religion here on a conceptual level. I find Christianity to be excellent in that God is given to the world as the model man, about how to live.

to do stuff (like fly or walk on water) that was not necessary Lubcha, perhaps it was necessary. Perhaps this Jew named Jesus wanted to give people hope in that world. Regardless, he did not cause people to be killed nor am I inferring that you mean that Josh.

What I am saying, somewhat like Hepkat did, is that when people take religion/ous ideals and interpret them, this is where most disagreements occur.

I am still Catholic and yet have my issues with the Church. To this day, I debate with my friends aobut Jesus and Catholicism.

To this day, I still find that Jesus is a marvelous concept. I hope no one takes that the wrong way, however, when discussing religion, it is often useful to part with "what I learned and hold dear to me" and more effective to dissect "the ideal." Each religion has virtues and ideals that converge upon similar principles. However, interpretation yields much debate.

Josh, please don't leave this discussion. It's been a model of how I hope most threads would go. We are all intelligently discussing, respecting views and not bashing. Guys, I am impressed.  Smokin cool


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