ronen
Posts: 314
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 1999 9:08 pm

Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Wed Oct 09, 2002 10:32 pm

Who wants to visit them is another story.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2310273.stm
 
manni
Posts: 4049
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Wed Oct 09, 2002 10:39 pm

You can't blame them for that!

And who want to visit them Ronen?
How about a couple million muslim from countrys all over the world (including US) during the Hadj?
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
bravo45
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Wed Oct 09, 2002 10:41 pm

If the US has ANY right to finger print the Arabs even Pakistanis and anyone else comming to their country, every other country has the same right and NO ONE should be pissed about anyone else using that right, WHEATHER SOMEOE WANTS TO GO THERE OR NOT. BTW I think a lot of Americans go to Saudia Arabia.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Wed Oct 09, 2002 10:47 pm

Let them fingerprint Americans-it's their right. I mean, after all, our citizens are blowing up their buildings and hijacking their planes all the time, so I can see the need to do it, you know.
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Wed Oct 09, 2002 11:00 pm

Alpha1 and others,
The Muslim world is facing prejudiced ALL over the western world. The people living in the Muslim countries feel all this more than you can imajine. You can say that the American civilians are no threat to them, but what threat is there to America from millions of Muslims living there, going and comming from there, only 19 men who are dead now cannot be the justification of all the humiliation that is being done. Let finger printing be a normal procedure and Muslims wouldn't feel it either.
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Wed Oct 09, 2002 11:09 pm

Almost all immigration rights and proceedures are reciprocal, you do it to us so we do it to you. It was only a matter of time and americans really haven't a leg to stand on complaining about this.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
ronen
Posts: 314
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 1999 9:08 pm

RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Wed Oct 09, 2002 11:10 pm


I don't have any problem with what they are doing . I think that fingerprinting

is not justified in any case and if I can continue what Manni had said most of

the fingerprint taking will be of American Arabs.



 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Wed Oct 09, 2002 11:13 pm

This is ridiculous. How dare they take an attitude like that with US citizens when they rely on the US to pretty much exist. I think the time is right for a regime change in Saudi Arabia if they continue with this attitude. The United States has been nothing but a friend to Saudi Arabia and this is how they retaliate? What an ungrateful country.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
BarfBag
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Wed Oct 09, 2002 11:15 pm

American computers connected by American cables in a room with probably an American airconditioner being used by pissed off spoiled sheiks to keep track of American fingerprints  Laugh out loud
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Wed Oct 09, 2002 11:21 pm

Sean, that was classic! ROTFL
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Wed Oct 09, 2002 11:53 pm

Time to rake up the profiling debate now the shoe is on the other foot. Sucks doesn't it ?
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Wed Oct 09, 2002 11:58 pm

Time to rake up the profiling debate now the shoe is on the other foot. Sucks doesn't it ?

Slight difference. When was the last time an American went to Saudi Arabia to set off bombs or crash airliners, hmmm?

This is just vindictiveness, but not surprising coming from them.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 12:06 am

It doesn't suck, Pacificjourney, because when you're not guilty of anything, it shouldn't bother you. The fact that the Saudi's get all pissed when they're screened or what is laughable, after 19 of their citizens pulled off that act of war a year ago.

I could care less if they want to be petty and fingerprint me if I go there.
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 12:07 am

The Saudi's believe they have a reason for these measures as does the US and thats what counts. Protests to the US government do no good so tit for tat is the next step. If the Saudis response is vindictiveness then how do we describe the US's, knee-jerk, paranoia, racist perhaps ?

You didn't honestly think you could treat all nationals of a particular nation like common criminals without this kind of thing happening did you ?

How does it feel, not good right ?
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
manni
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 12:07 am

B747-437B,

Great friend! Treating Saoudis like convicts before they're allowed to get in.
Your comment made me laugh for a couple moments, until I realised that you might be serious, I felt a pity for you. How on earth could you be upset about the fact that Americans visiting Saoudi Arabie must fingerprint because Saoudis must do so when visting the US. Sounds very logic IMO.

Ronen,

Perhaps, they'll let American muslims trough without fingerprinting.  Big grin Wouldn't surprise me at all.
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
david b.
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 12:09 am

This is ridiculous. How dare they take an attitude like that with US citizens when they rely on the US to pretty much exist. I think the time is right for a regime change in Saudi Arabia if they continue with this attitude. The United States has been nothing but a friend to Saudi Arabia and this is how they retaliate? What an ungrateful country.

Now I understand why people hate us so much................Glad most Americans don't have that altitude.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 12:13 am

So easy to say it wouldn't bother you Alpha1 since you won't be going but take it from one who has been finger-printed for immigration both in Japan and the US and it isn't nice.

Don't give us that shit about the guilty having nothing to hide either. What about the right to privacy, innocent until proven otherwise and other legal niceties. How long before they also use those fingerprints for other purposes ? Paranoid perhaps but I would rather they didn't start Big Brother experiments with me.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 12:16 am

Oops !

That should read ' the INNOCENT having nothing to hide'.

Freudian slip anyone ?
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4442
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 12:26 am

The Muslim world is facing prejudiced ALL over the western world. The people living in the Muslim countries feel all this more than you can imajine.

Good!

Because they are it, baby. They are the best line of defense against the types of people who have PUT THEM in the position of facing prejudice all over the world.

When sane, reasonable Muslims...and as an American I'll volunteer the idea that that's most of them.....the world over decide enough is enough, that this extremist zealotry on their fringes is giving them two black eyes and a sore groin in the eyes of the rest of the world, they will be able to stop the al Qaedas and the bin Ladens and the Omars and the al Aqsa Martyrs faster, better, more efficiently then all the Western forces put together.

As to the fingerprinting, I was trying to come up with an appropriate opinion when I read through the posts and saw BarfBag's. Yeah! That!
 
manni
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 12:28 am

Hi Pacificjourney,

That reminds me about something.
When I got mugged in Japan last July (by foreigners), I made a declaration at the police station (Roppongi, Tokyo). After they had everything written down on a paper I had to fingerprint it. It did feel weird indeed.

SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3233
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 1:16 am

Go ahead let them fingerprint US citizens. If this childish ploy makes them feel better about themselves and what some of their fellow countrymen have done thats their hangup.

It doen't bother me, I have no plans to go to the Middle East, and don't WANT to go to the Middle East. I find the "Tit for Tat" very amusing. Instead of a SERIOUS attempt to find and control terrorists and terrorism Saudi Arabia resorts to fingerprinting Americans.

However, if it works and they find some terrorists who are American citizens, after all John Walker Lindh is an American, then Kudos to Saudi Arabia.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
Rai
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 1:27 am

I think the nature of their policy is innane and immature, but think about it. If every country adopted a fingerprinting policy, the world would probably be a safer place. I'm for equal discrimination.  Big grin
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 2:15 am

Typical Saudi peevishness.
They'd be better off loosening control over the nasty society they've helped create.

But as usual we will continue to let the Saudis do whatever they like, from forcing American service women to wear the hijab to coddling and exporting Islamic fundamentalism. If it weren't for 9-11 we'd still be kissing their Royal Arab heinies and singing their praises.

Frankly, I don't know what the big deal is about being finger printed as you enter the US. Even the demeaning aspect of it can be avoided if you provide your fingerprints as you present your passport and Immigration forms to the INS officer at the booth. Currently prior issued visas (which are pretty hard to obtain) are required of those visitors from countries that are major sources of immigrants (India, South Korea, China, Russia, etc), while most visitors from First World nations (the EU, Japan etc) can get one automatically stamped as they enter. Is this discriminatory? Perhaps, but its also based in a sound policy rationale.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 2:39 am

This is ridiculous. How dare they take an attitude like that with US citizens when they rely on the US to pretty much exist.
So you see why its important?? Other than the matters of security, the Americans should know that they are nothing as super humans or that no one else is anything less than a human and that all are same. Its CANNOT be that fingerprinting of Muslims comming to the US cannot be held in terms of humiliation when you say things like these when someone fingerprints an American.
As for Alpha1's comment that Saudis should be fingerprinted because of the actions of their 19 people, you can't even blame all Saudis for this let alone all Muslims and that the US is fingerprinting NOT ONLY Saudia Arabian people but of other countries as well ALL MUSLIM including Pakistan which is called as their ally when they need it.

If every country adopted a fingerprinting policy, the world would probably be a safer place.
Thats what I said. It should have been done by the US. I mean I never mind taking measures ensuring security but discriminaton is something I can't stand. So it should have been the US that should have said to the entire world to start fingerprinting each other when the forst words of criticism were spoken against the fingerprinting of the US. THAT might have been the ONLY fair case.
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 2:41 am

Even the demeaning aspect of it can be avoided if you provide your fingerprints as you present your passport and Immigration forms to the INS officer at the booth.

Unfortunately the system does not work quite as simple as that. All passengers required to be fingerprinted are taken to detention cells in the "hard secondary" zone where they are held in custody with the immigration violators. The wait for an officer to conduct the fingerprinting (based on personal experience at TOR PFI) usually is between 2-3 hours, followed by an additional 2-3 hours to "process" the prints and approve/deny entry to the US.

The INS does not have a clue about how to treat foreign nationals arriving on legitimate business. Their idea of "determining intent" for visitors sometimes involves locking them in a cell and physically abusing them until they sign false "confession statements". Compared to that, the Saudis are being positively benign.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 2:50 am

The INS does not have a clue about how to treat foreign nationals arriving on legitimate business. Their idea of "determining intent" for visitors sometimes involves locking them in a cell and physically abusing them until they sign false "confession statements".

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!! IS THIS TRUE??????
IS THIS THE HELL YOU DO TO PEOPLE THAT ARE "SUSPECTED" TO BE SUSPECTS???????????
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4442
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 3:02 am

It must be true Bravo, you read it on the Internet.

 
jaysit
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 3:15 am

B747-437B:

You're right about the fact that the INS often treat legitimate visitors like they are thugs. I guess I should have stated explicitly that my statement was more of a proposal of how things could and should work rather than how they do now. The recent treatment of an Iranian dissident film maker is proof of how clueless these people are.

I just can't imagine taking a whole 747 complement of passengers with valid visas arriving on PIA or Saudia and subjecting them to very real intimidation at a port of entry.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
OO-AOG
Posts: 1395
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 3:23 am

Normal reaction after obvious US discrimination for Muslim's/middle-east travellers. I don't blame the US for that, it's probably improving their own safety, but I do understand the frustration of the Saudi Arabians.
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
LH423
Posts: 5868
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 3:24 am

It doesn't suck, Pacificjourney, because when you're not guilty of anything, it shouldn't bother you

Exactly! In my job, I have to deal with having to stand next to people while they go through the indignation of having their bags rummaged through. Most of the time they're woman and children travelling home to Syria on their Syrian passport that have to have this done. Only one time did I actually think someone fit the "profile" of someone who could be capable of something, such as the overpowering of an aircraft. It's not a part of the job I like, but you do what you must. And when faced with this, all the people say is (with a smile on their face), "It's okay. We've got nothing to hide." So, I think with the same positive attitude, American's can get over it and do the same, and not let it bother them. Anyways, the way I see it is, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
B747-437B
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 3:38 am

Bravo - I can assure you that it is true, having suffered through that process myself. Email me if you would like more details.

Jaysit - Go down to JFK one of these days when the Saudia flight has arrived and ask random passengers about their immigration experiences.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
kaitakfan
Posts: 1475
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 3:56 am

Can someone who is more familiar with the entrance procedures for Americans into Saudi Arabia expand on it a bit more. I was under the impression that Americans could not visit Saudi Arabia unless there was family or business in the Kingdom. This is what I learned from my old girlfriend who's father worked with Aramco in Dhahran (sp)? So it seems not that many Americans will be visiting the Kingdom to be bothered by the fingerprinting. Now what is the stipulation for Saudi's coming to America? Can they just come over as tourists like any other foreigners?
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:04 am

Americans can visit Saudi Arabia for personal reasons, business reasons, religious reasons, transit or employment. All of these require different paperwork to be completed, a list of which can be found at the Saudi Embassy website.

Saudi's may visit the United States for a variety of reasons as well, once again with varying levels of documentation required. More details can be found at the US State Department website.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
Guest

RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:09 am

Jaysit - Go down to JFK one of these days when the Saudia flight has arrived and ask random passengers about their immigration experiences.

Holy Christ, Sean, I think I'm going to do that! And I'm going to film it! Make a little documentary!!!. Graet idea... great great idea. Want to come up to the city next week and help me??

We could book tickets to Caclutta while we're at it!

No joke, I'll be in the city this Thursday through Tuesday and I definately want to to interview some Saudis about the immigration officers. that'll be exciting.

TNNH - russ
 
Rai
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:19 am

Russ: maybe we can go for a beer then? I'm thinking of checking out JFK as well. I'll also ask a few people I know who work there if this is true.
 
tbar220
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:34 am

I think the nature of their policy is innane and immature, but think about it. If every country adopted a fingerprinting policy, the world would probably be a safer place. I'm for equal discrimination.  Big grin

Couldn't have said it better myself  Big thumbs up
NO URLS in signature
 
Marco
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:51 am

Manni, why don't you do us all a favor and go to Saudi Arabia?

Anyway this is ridiculous, considering Saudi wouldn't exist today if it wasn't for the USA. I'm glad Bush decided to fight Iraq and kill 2 million Iraqi's for grateful Saudi's/Kuwaiti's Insane.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
Marcus
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 5:32 am

I wouldn't be surprised if Saudi Arabia turned to be the Iran of the next decade with a Sha/Ayatollah (sp?) scenario.
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
david b.
Posts: 2894
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 5:33 am

Bush loves oil. SA has lots of oil.

Oil=good
WMD=bad

If we can do it, why cant SA? Are Americans super-human?
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 5:47 am

Want to come up to the city next week and help me??

I'd love to Russ, but unfortunately I'd rather not subject myself to another round of being kicked and beaten by the INS thugs. I'll be keeping myself outside the United States in the real free world until further notice.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
airmale
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 6:36 am

List of Muslim countries whose nationals (males only) will have to be registered, photographed and fingerprinted (computerised and not with ink):

South East Asia

Indonesia and Malaysia

South Asia

Afghanistan and Pakistan

Middle East/Persian Gulf Region

Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Oman, Yemen, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon

North and East Africa

Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Sudan, Eritria and Djibouti.


Pakistani's have been included in another category of people who will have to be registered, which includes Saudi Arabia and Yemen.
.....up there with the best!
 
manni
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 6:44 am

Marco,

Sure no problem, atleast they wouldn't ask me my fingerprints.  Big grin
BTW, They've got internet aswell in Saoudi Arabia.  Big thumbs up
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
bravo45
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 7:18 am

So Muslims from these countries going to the US would be HELD FOR TENS OF HOURS IN LOCKUPS, BE HUMILIATED PHYSICALLY AND THE WORST THAT ONE CAN IMAGINE AND THEN PROBABLY BE LABELED AS TERRORISTS??????????????
I THOUGH THIS WAS A JOKE OR SOMETHING. WONDER A 747 FULL OF PASSENGERS OF PIA LANDING AT JFK, THE LAST PASSENGER WOULD HAVE TO WAIT FOR....?????
 
Marco
Posts: 4005
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 12:06 pm

Sure no problem, atleast they wouldn't ask me my fingerprints.
BTW, They've got internet aswell in Saoudi Arabia.


By the way three quarters of web sites are blocked in Saudi. Make sure this isn't one of them before going... Wink/being sarcastic

Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 12:09 pm

If the Saudis response is vindictiveness then how do we describe the US's, knee-jerk, paranoia, racist perhaps ?

KNEE-JERK? 3000 dead, buildings and planes blown up, with 19 Saudi's among the culprits, and you call that knee-jerk? God, you're naive.
 
jaysit
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 12:22 pm

Well, it may not be a knee jerk reaction by the US, but the execution of these policies leave much to be desired especially by a superpower that needs all the goodwill it can garner from the Middle East - and the world - right now. INS agents acting like the proverbial Sheriff in Jim Crow America without cause leaves an ugly impression of America by perfectly bonafide visitors entering the US.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 12:49 pm

Yes knee-jerk, the appearance of copmbating the problem rather than actually combating the problem. Precisely how would the taking of fingerprints prevent a recurence of 9/11 ?

I know you turned 41 the other week Alpha1 but stop being such a know-it-all old geezer, it is tiresome. People who disagree with you are not naive just because they disagree with you, open your mind to divergent opinions and get yourself a new adjective please.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 12:59 pm

Pacificjourney, your remarks sway me not at all. You can call me any idiotic names you want, but it doesn't change my opinion one iota. And so sorry if you don't like that I think certain people are naive in what they believe on here. Again, I don't have to "open my mind" to opinions I don't think are valid, and you're name-calling won't change my mind on that, my friend.

When you are ready to discuss the issues, instead of calling me names, as you always seem to do, maybe we can discuss that. But you won't sway me with talk like that.
 
docpepz
Posts: 1706
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 12:59 pm

So are all citizens of the above 15 'terrorist risk' countries subject to photographing and finger printing on arrival in the USA or is all done at the sole discretion of the Immigration officer?

Why is The Philippines not on the list? Heaps of terrorists have been found there. And why can Singaporeans enter the USA without even having to apply for a visa, while neighbouring Malaysia and Indonesia are subject to totally different rules? The kind of nonsense that goes on in the south of the Philippines is comparable to the senseless violence that takes place in Indonesia.

I suppose it's cos The Philippines is majority Roman Catholic and Singapore is not a Muslim country. By definition, Catholics can't be terrorists I guess. (I'm catholic by the way.. hehe)
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
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RE: Riyadh 'to Fingerprint US Visitors'

Thu Oct 10, 2002 1:08 pm

Alpha1

Did not expect for a moment to shift someone of your entrenched nature but before getting on your high-horse about name calling (BTW you think 'old geezer is name calling) be so kind as to scroll upward and see who threw adjectives first, no don't bother here it is,

"God, you're naive." From you to me, I thank you.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "

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