tbar220
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Atheist Gone Bad?

Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:08 pm

Ok, last week, a guy on our floor who is an atheist posted on his door a bible which he burned. This upset many, many people, understandably. After a couple of days, somebody took it down. This led to a prompt response by him in the form of a letter posted on his door, which follows.

***

to whom it may concern:

never, never, never steal an atheist’s bible. there are many reasons for this and for never interfering with an atheist in any way: the first of these is that you risk angering one of us to the point of active rebellion. i’ve been at this point my whole life and tonight i write against your doctrines of stupidity. you consistently refuse to leave the disciplines of thought alone, and if you take an atheist’s bible, it is only in the deepest irony, as we have learned infinitely more from your gospel than you have. we were done with it, and now we’ve learned you couldn’t tolerate our statement, you who learn always from a book and never from experience. your illusions of love and justice, of an invisible big brother who’s ready to fight for you, you bring your petty minds to the front of our door and are capable only of theft. if you want to fight, to combat the “forces of darkness,” before i gather them to fight against the gods of all ages, then walk inside my room and let’s have it out. i will fight with the elite armies of philosophers and the deep arsenal of rhetoric. i live by the pen, while you live by the sword, and you will one day be removed from the earth. all you will have left is the prayer that when religion is defeated, it is only by the pen. there will be thinkers that will grow too weary with your ignorance and choose bloodier ends. hopefully you’re not afraid, for you may realize that if you choose to fight to defend religion you will have no help from your miserable gods, that you will need the balls to stand up, on your own, and fight me.

goodnight, and fuck you.

michael jacques

p.s. i support unrelentingly your right to your belief, but at the same instant i seize my right to my rebellion and wage war on your pitiful religions. pit the great theologians of time against a true mind and i will show you an intellectual violence against doctrine unrivaled in history

***

I have two complaints with this guy. One, is as an atheist, I respect his beliefs, but he doesn't respect mine or anybody else's that has a religion. And he displays this by burning a holy item and putting it up on his door. Now, I'm Jewish, and I don't believe in the New Testament, but I still respect it and was very disturbed by seeing it burned like that. If he put up a burnt torah or burnt Jewish star on his door, I would have been even more infuriated.

Secondly, I find that fact that he burned a book awful. Books are something precious, they are words, they are thoughts, and to some people, books are life. When you burn a book, you destroy all that. When you burn a book, you stoop the level of the Nazis. And since this guy says he lives by the pen, it disturbs me even more that he burned a book.

So please, tell me what you think about this.
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We're Nuts
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:11 pm

I think your place of employment needs a boss. Sounds like a zoo!
Dear moderators: No.
 
dragogoalie
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:11 pm

Damnit T, I told you. Pee on his door.  Big grin

--dragogoalie-#88--
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tbar220
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:13 pm

Sadly, my place of employment is a college dorm.

Do you guys think he was justified in doing this?
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We're Nuts
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:14 pm

So in other words, it IS a zoo. Okay, my mistake.

In any event, just leave the guy alone. He might be a sniper.
Dear moderators: No.
 
cfalk
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:17 pm

I think that you should take him out to the back of the dorm (I assume you live in a dorm) and beat the crap out of him. Bring a couple of friends that were also offended by this asshole. Beat him up, and then piss on him.

I'm not joking. This guy is so wrapped up in his "rights" to "rebel" and be an atheist, that he has forgotten what common decentcy is - to not going around offending people on purpose. Getting a broken nose and covered in piss will cure this problem.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
lehpron
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:29 pm

This seems like a tale of two extremists, the religious nutcase and the atheistic nutcase.

Both feel they have the 'right ' to do what they do and both feel the other does not have that same 'right' to do the same. Eventually both sides will kill each other off as if each other is more right and the situation will create exaggeration as well as more ignorance on both sides as well as any audience member.

A most unfortunate situation; but unless it is against school rules, then who's problem is it? How easy is it to simply ignore? The stress levels of the general public would at the very least quarter if they just ignored the argument altogether.

Which ever side you're on, there's bound to be overly sensitve people who react oddly to things.


Keep in mind: Not all Atheists/Religionists are brought up equally.

Heck there are neither-ists and either-ists as well.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
tbar220
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:35 pm

Lehpron,

Where is this a case of a religious nutcase? Somebody was upset and took a burnt bible off his door. Agreed, he shouldn't have done that because the door is on his property, but the guy shouldn't be labeled a religious extremist for doing that.
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tbar220
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:40 pm

We're Nuts,

That's why college dorms are so much fun  Laugh out loud

Oh, and should I report this guy for being unpatriotic? Sounds like the thing to do now  Big grin
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Guest

RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Mon Oct 14, 2002 4:02 pm

Tzvika,

Either you have a rather disturbed individual on your hands or he is just taking the piss out of you all.

Best to avoid him at all costs. Let him stick a burnt bible on his door. It's not really harming anyone, offensive to some it may be though.

Do he play Marilyn Manson at full volume?

mb

 
saintsman
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Mon Oct 14, 2002 5:41 pm

Tbar,

Would you be happy with books that promote extremist views. Books that proclaim that it is okay to murder people because they have a different view from you. Should anyone who wants to write a book, no matter what the subject, be allowed to print it? I think not, standards have to be set thoght I will agree it is sometimes difficult to define the standard.

As for an athiest zealot, well that is a first. He has said a lot of things that can be considered true but they didn't need to be said. There is no need to offend others, what he did was provocative and he needs to be taken aside and told so.
 
tbar220
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Mon Oct 14, 2002 5:43 pm

Saintsman,

I agree, it is indeed a dillema. I would never burn a book. But what about..oh, say, something called "The Terrorist Handmanual"? I dunno what I would do. It is thought, words, yet very dangerous. Quite a dillema eh?

A bible may be controversial to some, but certainly not burning material, to put it lightly.
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Guest

RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Mon Oct 14, 2002 6:03 pm

I think that you should take him out to the back of the dorm (I assume you live in a dorm) and beat the crap out of him. Bring a couple of friends that were also offended by this asshole. Beat him up, and then piss on him.


Well he is probably looking for this type infantile reaction, pity you weren't there to give it to him hey Charlie? I hope you aren't trying to pass yourself off as a religious type, because clearly you're not.

It would be wise to note that we have only one side of this story, and therefore are not in a position to really make an informed judgement. He seems to be sending a message and his message indicates that he would prefer to protest in a non physical way (ie, burning the bible) whereas the relgious types prefer physical action (ie, removing the bible).

It is his right to burn a bible and to hang it on his door, in much the same way as it's a religious persons right to hang a bible (non burnt) on their door. The adult way of dealing with his protest would have been to hang bibles on your doors, not to steal his bible.

Seems on the surface (without all information) he may have a valid point.

His final comment about coming out from behind the words could be a worry however, because there appears to be an implied threat there. He could be a lunatic about to snap or he could simply be someone sick to death of all the problems in the world caused by religion.

It's difficult to say.

The issue of not burning books isn't valid IMO. Books are burnt/banned/destroyed all the time. If the book was one that defiled your religion would you feel the same way about honouring it and not burning it? To me a book is simply a book, if we were to burn ALL the books i'd get upset, but one book .. well hardly a problem really.

Having said all that, I would have to say that I don't think I would burn a bible and hang it on a door! It reaches a point of offensiveness that I would be reluctant to go to.

Let me say that in order to DEMAND(or expect) a person to honour your beliefs you must be prepared to do the same. As it's a requirement of christianity to go spread the world it's pretty clear that Christianity does not honour the beliefs of others and therefore should not expect others to honour theirs. Obviously this does not relate to every christian, but enough to make it a valid comment.



VH-ADG
 
jwenting
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Mon Oct 14, 2002 6:07 pm

I think your place of employment needs a boss. Sounds like a zoo!

Sadly, my place of employment is a college dorm.

So in other words, it IS a zoo. Okay, my mistake.


Made me laugh a bit reading that.

But back to business...
Burning a bible and openly displaying the results might be illegal because it is designed to hurt people. At the very least check if it constitutes enough reason to get the person thrown out of your dorm.
Don't beat him up, that only gives him reason to take legal action against you (you could get arrested for assault).

Burning books is indeed something I find hard to comprehend. But you have to remember that Christian fanatics in the US and elsewhere do it all the time to material that they find revolting (like the works of Darwin and literature that does not confirm to their strict beliefstructure).
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cfalk
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Mon Oct 14, 2002 6:40 pm

ADG,

If I lived next door to you, and hung pictures in the hallway of your parents, your girlfriend/wife, or your kids, and used it as a dartboard, or sticking knives into it, would that make you upset? It should.

What this guy is doing is attacking something that other people hold dear. You cannot equate this to someone hanging a cross or a star of David on their door. That is not attacking anyone, firstly, and second, to an atheist, such a symbol does not mean anything, so there is no reason for him to feel offended.

He may have the right to express his views on religion. But he does not have the right to subjugate others to that opinion, day in and day out. This is common decency. Everyone in the U.S. has the right to his beliefs and that also means that they have the right to practice their beliefs without being attacked for them.

My statement earlier has nothing to do with beating him up because he is an atheits. That's none of my business. What I would like to see is such a person get a lesson why it's not a good idea to go around insulting other people or their beliefs, because they are none of HIS business, either.

Charles

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Marco
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Mon Oct 14, 2002 10:57 pm


It would be wise to note that we have only one side of this story, and therefore are not in a position to really make an informed judgement. He seems to be sending a message and his message indicates that he would prefer to protest in a non physical way (ie, burning the bible) whereas the relgious types prefer physical action (ie, removing the bible).

It's called intolerance and disrespect. ADG, you always defend Muslims, Palestinians, etc but when it comes to Christians it's suddenly ok to do all of those things to them, so which one is it? Make up your mind and stop being hypocritical on every issue.

It is his right to burn a bible and to hang it on his door, in much the same way as it's a religious persons right to hang a bible (non burnt) on their door.

This is the most ridiculous statement I've heard in a long time. No it's not ok, if he doesn't believe in the Bible he doesn't need to burn, after all he has nothing to worry about right?

The adult way of dealing with his protest would have been to hang bibles on your doors, not to steal his bible.

No, that may be your opinion but we have no place in this world for a nut like that.

Seems on the surface (without all information) he may have a valid point.

ADG you always contradict yourself, you have absolutely no stand on issues, you just use emotions. If this had been the Koran or the Torah, everyone would have been outraged. Shame on you.

His final comment about coming out from behind the words could be a worry however, because there appears to be an implied threat there. He could be a lunatic about to snap or he could simply be someone sick to death of all the problems in the world caused by religion.

The problems in the world are caused by fanatics, athiests, etc...you can't generalize. You're always the one pointing out in Islamic threads that generalizing is wrong but when it comes to a Christian thread you're the first one to generalize.

It's difficult to say.

Not if you have common sense.

The issue of not burning books isn't valid IMO. Books are burnt/banned/destroyed all the time.

This is a Holy book, not just any book, and others should respect it, period.

If the book was one that defiled your religion would you feel the same way about honouring it and not burning it? To me a book is simply a book, if we were to burn ALL the books i'd get upset, but one book .. well hardly a problem really.

That's because you're not a Christian, so you're in no position to answer.

Having said all that, I would have to say that I don't think I would burn a bible and hang it on a door! It reaches a point of offensiveness that I would be reluctant to go to.

My question is if you don't believe in the Bible/God why would you go to such lengths to prove a point???

Let me say that in order to DEMAND(or expect) a person to honour your beliefs you must be prepared to do the same. As it's a requirement of christianity to go spread the world it's pretty clear that Christianity does not honour the beliefs

Twisting our beliefs around yet again eh? We are instructed to tell others about Jesus and our faith, but we are not forced to convert anyone to force anyone to believe in God. That's not disrespecting anybody, and no that's not the equivalent of burning someone's Holy book, so you don't have a point.

of others and therefore should not expect others to honour theirs. Obviously this does not relate to every christian, but enough to make it a valid comment.

So you generalized yet again. ADG your comments on this issue are disgusting.

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tbar220
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 12:40 am

ADG,

I'm not even going to bother picking your post apart, as it practically condraticts itself. But if there's one part I cannot believe you said, here it is.

. As it's a requirement of christianity to go spread the world it's pretty clear that Christianity does not honour the beliefs of others and therefore should not expect others to honour theirs. Obviously this does not relate to every christian, but enough to make it a valid comment.

Look, I'm not Christian, but does that say its ok for me not to resect their religion? Just cause I disagree with some views of Christianity, does not say I go around burning bibles, and the calling it a "valid comment" as you said.

Secondly, have you ever heard of the "Golden Rule"? Treat others as you wish to be treated yourself. Your statement should rather be, "Just because Christianity does not honor the beliefs of others, we should still honor theirs. By your logic above, if somebody at your workplace insults you, you should insult them back. If somebody at a sports game hurts you, you should hurt them back. AND, if an attacker kills somebody, you kill them back, its ok. Don't be such a hypocrite, its terrible.
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tbar220
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 12:43 am

I think for somebody to be an atheist, for people to respect your beliefs as an atheist, you need to respect people's beliefs who have religion. The scary thing about this guy, is that he has his little group of friends that would never speak out against his actions, their his little minions. If he ever did something wrong, they'd just brush it aside. Its men like this who are the next cult leaders and such.

It would be wise to note that we have only one side of this story, and therefore are not in a position to really make an informed judgement.

ADG, what other side of the story do you want me to point out? I'm pretty sure I've covered both.
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heavymetal
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 1:30 am

The fact that he's an atheist is irrelevent. What is relevent is that he's a shameless attention seeker. You might point out to him that his going out of his way to rub the noses of those who disagree with him in sh*t puts him in the very same category of those he despises. And God or lack thereof has nothing to do with it.
 
tbar220
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:03 am

The fact that he's an atheist is irrelevent.

Agreed. His disrespect is the most disturbing thing.
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ExitRow
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:52 am

Like it or not... in America... it's protected free speech.

 
Marco
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:57 am

It's not free speech, it's an attack on people's views. Free speech doesn't mean you can offend millions of people, and be provocative about it! Exitrow...don't twist the concept of free speech around. You can say what's on your mind, but burning the Bible is provocative and stupid!
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tbar220
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 4:04 am

Actually marco, it is free speech. His action is protected by the 1st Amendment.
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Marco
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 4:06 am

For me it's intolerance, prejudice and pure hatred...
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jwenting
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 4:10 am

. As it's a requirement of christianity to go spread the world it's pretty clear that Christianity does not honour the beliefs of others and therefore should not expect others to honour theirs. Obviously this does not relate to every christian, but enough to make it a valid comment.

From all the Christians I've met, only a very few didn't stop trying to convert me when I told them I wasn't interested.
Even the Jehovahs are now getting the message, they promised to remove me from their list of addresses they come knocking after I spoke to them a while back.
The only thing in which Christianity doesn't honour the beliefs of others is that they refuse to accept that their are gods besides theirs, but that is a feature of most of the worlds current religions.
This is quite in contrast to most religions at the time Christianity was founded. The Roman and Greek (and to a lesser degree Egyptian) religions were quite open and would accept gods from other religions that were encountered to become part of their religion if the believers in that god would only accept the Roman/Greek religion in return as at least being valid next to their own.

While there are fanatics in all religions (and yes, atheism is a religion too. These people have a religious belief in the non-existence of gods that is as strong as the belief in his/her god of the strongest believer in any other religion) mostly those people are not accepted by even their own societies as being representative. Societies that not only accept but foster fanaticism like that are fundamentally unhealthy.
This person has obviously crossed the line between being a normal atheist and become a religious fanatic. In the Middle East he would have gone walking into a mosk or synagogue with a few kilos of explosive strapped around his waste, in the US he burns bibles.
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ExitRow
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 4:32 am

Marco,

I find the KKK repulsive. But what they say is protected as free speech in America, as it should be.

Don't let your own hatred, prejudice and intolerance blind you to the inalienable rights of a human to make their ideals known, however distasteful to you they may be.

 
lehpron
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 4:32 am

"Where is this a case of a religious nutcase? Somebody was upset and took a burnt bible off his door. Agreed, he shouldn't have done that because the door is on his property, but the guy shouldn't be labeled a religious extremist for doing that."

Everyone has the option to do or not to do in any situation. That guy choose to put a burnt bible on his door while most atheists probably could care less, he's an extremist. The guy that took the book down did so out of compassion for the meaning of the bible as if he had the right to do so while most others would simply complain about it and not do anything as they know it's his property, that guy was a religious extremist.

Extremists exist on both sides, though they are not always in light (focused as often by most), that doesn't mean they are not there.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
Guest

RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 4:34 am

It just goes to show the arrogance of the "intellectuals." I put the term in quotations, because I find it ironic that for all of their all the intelligence they posses, they are not so smart as to acknowledge the fact that all human reasoning is imperfect. In other words, their main flaw is that they believe that they have no flaws.

'Speed
 
Guest

RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 6:52 am

Charles,

My response to your suggestion about taking him out the back and physically assaulting him stands. I understand the feelings his actions invoked but I don't understand how people can use his action to justify a physical assault. You haven't made me understand that.

I did write a response to you, it wasn't deleted but it's not online.... that's quite strange (and not the first time it's happened ...) weird.

and here comes Marco, guaranteed to pop his head up if I say anything about religion....

etc but when it comes to Christians it's suddenly ok to do all of those things to them, so which one is it? Make up your mind and stop being hypocritical on every issue.

Come on Marco, get back into the real world. What is it suddenly ok to do to these christians? Why the reference to muslims? If you are suggesting it's ok to physically harm a chrisitian then i'd suggest you go and re-read my post. It clearly indicates it is NOT OK to physically harm another person.

You are simply inserting emotive rhetoric into a discussion that it has no place in.

This is the most ridiculous statement I've heard in a long time. No it's not ok, if he doesn't believe in the Bible he doesn't need to burn, after all he has nothing to worry about right?

Is there a law against burning bibles? You have made 2 totally separate statements, it is not ridiculous to suggest it is his right to burn bibles, unless there is a law against it he can do it.

and you are right, if he doesn't believe in the bible he doesn't NEED to burn it. However, those are mutually exclusive issues and one doesn't justify the other. Personally, i've never felt the desire to burn a bible and I can't see myself ever getting to that stage. But I am not him.

No, that may be your opinion but we have no place in this world for a nut like that.

Now you are showing intolerance and hatred, decidedly unchristian traits there Marco. Yes it is my opinion, and I point out that you are simply posting your opinion. My statement stands. Saying there is no place in this world for a "nut like that" isn't a mature response to his actions. He most likely hung the bible there to get a reaction, and he got it.

Your reaction harms your religion far more than his does.

ADG you always contradict yourself, you have absolutely no stand on issues, you just use emotions. If this had been the Koran or the Torah, everyone would have been outraged. Shame on you.

Now you are posting absolute rubbish. If it were the Qu'ran the muslims would have been outrages, if it was the Torah the jews would have been outrages. I wouldn't have been. I think what he did was silly and inflamatory, but I wouldn't have been outrages. You need to think a little more about your statements Marco, shame on YOU.

The problems in the world are caused by fanatics, athiests, etc...you can't generalize.

Which fanatical athiests are these? I can generalise, we all know that it's the fanatics who hijack and use a religion that cause the problems, not the people who live their lives as peaceful god loving people (of any religion), or those who peacefully live their lives without religion. We've had this discussion before.

Not if you have common sense.

I'm not seeing common sense from you Marco. You appear to hate quickly and comprehend slowly. That is NOT a christian trait Marco.

This is a Holy book, not just any book, and others should respect it, period.

They should, but there is no law forcing them to. It's not THEIR Holy book, it is YOUR holy book. You don't respect the beliefs of others, how dare you demand others to respect your beliefs. You are quite hypocritical.

That's because you're not a Christian, so you're in no position to answer.

Really? How interesting. Are you assuming because a person is an athiest then they know nothing of christianity or are you simply being intolerant and saying i'm ignorant because I *choose* to be an athiest?

I'm sorry, but I think you should be very careful when making assumptions. Don't assume I know nothing about christianity because I made a choice not to believe Marco. Before doing that, ask a person about their background.

My question is if you don't believe in the Bible/God why would you go to such lengths to prove a point???

Which point is that?

Twisting our beliefs around yet again eh? We are instructed to tell others about Jesus and our faith, but we are not forced to convert anyone to force anyone to believe in God. That's not disrespecting anybody, and no that's not the equivalent of burning someone's Holy book, so you don't have a point.

What you really mean is that you don't agree with me therefore you think it's invalid. Go tell those who knock on my door on a sunday that I don't have a point. Knowing that i'm not a christian they now have a mission, the only way to stop them is to have them arrested for tresspassing.

So you generalized yet again. ADG your comments on this issue are disgusting.

do you really need me to explain the term "obviously that doesn't apply to all Christians" Marco? Come on now son, put a little thought into your responses or do us the courtesy of not responding at all.




VH-ADG
 
Guest

RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 7:15 am

Look, I'm not Christian, but does that say its ok for me not to resect their religion?

Certainly not.

Just cause I disagree with some views of Christianity, does not say I go around burning bibles, and the calling it a "valid comment" as you said.

People disrespect others in a number of ways, burning books, burning flags, calling them abusive names. It happens all the time, and in the big scheme of things burning a book rates much lower in the disprespect scale than calling someone a "sand nigger" for instance. ( a term that has been levelled at me ).

Secondly, have you ever heard of the "Golden Rule"? Treat others as you wish to be treated yourself.

I also agree with this. Thus my response if they didn't like the burnt bible they should have hung bibles on their doors. Burning a bible may be insulting, but it's not harmful. It hurt no-one, his protest (if that's what he is going) was a passive and peaceful one. some of the reactions in here were not. So how do you respond to Charles above who suggest we take him out the back and beat the living cr.p out of him? Is that treating others as you would wish to be treated?

Your statement should rather be, "Just because Christianity does not honor the beliefs of others, we should still honor theirs.

Why?

By your logic above, if somebody at your workplace insults you, you should insult them back. If somebody at a sports game hurts you, you should hurt them back. AND, if an attacker kills somebody, you kill them back, its ok. Don't be such a hypocrite, its terrible.

Actually, my statement above did no such thing. I do not agree with a violent response to a non violent action. Indeed, in most occasions I do not agree with a violent response to a violent reaction.

Why is it that religious people have so much difficulty understanding and respecting Athiests yet they demand that Athiests respect them? Marco tells me it's highly disrespectful to call the bible a work of fiction, yet that is my belief which has been jusitifed by the US court, is he not disrespecting my belief in his response? Isn't he demanding respect for his beliefs whilst refusing to respect mine?

I think for somebody to be an atheist, for people to respect your beliefs as an atheist, you need to respect people's beliefs who have religion.

I dont' disagree with you, but as an athiest I have to say that people do NOT respect my beliefs, they expect me to respect theirs but won't give me the same respect. It is quite difficult to respect the beliefs of people like that.

The scary thing about this guy, is that he has his little group of friends that would never speak out against his actions, their his little minions. If he ever did something wrong, they'd just brush it aside. Its men like this who are the next cult leaders and such.

Yes, whilst I believe he has a right to take the action he did, a part of me also worries about his motivation in doing so. I do think that the people at that school need to be wary of him and that they should report his actions to the authorities at the school.

You do realise they may not speak up against him because they agree with him? If I saw a burnt bible on the wall i'd think it was pretty silly, but I wouldnt' be offended by it. Others feel the same way I do.

ADG, what other side of the story do you want me to point out? I'm pretty sure I've covered both.

I wonder if there was an incident or series of incidents that prompted him to burn the bible. You did not cover that. Did he simply choose to put the bible there like that or did something drive him to it ... that could make a lot of difference to how people react to his behaviour. If there was no incident then he is more likely to be someone you should worry about, but if he is reacting to something else then maybe he's just being childish.

It's not free speech, it's an attack on people's views.

and isn't the removal of the bible an attack on HIS views?

Free speech doesn't mean you can offend millions of people, and be provocative about it!

Actually that statement is incorrect. I offended you when I told you I believed the bible to be a work of fiction, I have every right to say that both here and in America. I cannot be held responsible for the fact that you find that offensive. Sure there are some things that should never be said, but the fact that some may find it offensive isnt' good enough.

jtw

I don't believe that Athiesm is a religion, I think it is a belief.









 
We're Nuts
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 7:25 am

If he had put a glorified Bible on his door, would it have been disrespectful to the many who don't follow his god?
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redngold
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 7:26 am

Maybe if I got a book of Madalyn Murray O'Hair's writings and burned it, then put it on my door...

redngold
Up, up and away!
 
Marco
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 7:44 am

and here comes Marco, guaranteed to pop his head up if I say anything about religion....

This is a discussion forum, you can always choose not to participate.

Come on Marco, get back into the real world. What is it suddenly ok to do to these christians? Why the reference to muslims? If you are suggesting it's ok to physically harm a chrisitian then i'd suggest you go and re-read my post. It clearly indicates it is NOT OK to physically harm another person.

No what I'm saying is that you have absolutely no stand on any issue in this world. Your judgement is always clouded by your emotions, and so if you have a grudge against a particular faith it's ok to mock it, but it's "intolerant" to mock other faiths. That's hypocrisy and the reference to Muslims was brought in to prove my point.

You are simply inserting emotive rhetoric into a discussion that it has no place in.

You're the one using emotional rhetoric, not me.

Is there a law against burning bibles? You have made 2 totally separate statements, it is not ridiculous to suggest it is his right to burn bibles, unless there is a law against it he can do it.

I believe there is a law against discrimination, racism and intolerance. I believe that free speech is there so that we can voice our opinions, not so that we can mock other people and faiths.

and you are right, if he doesn't believe in the bible he doesn't NEED to burn it. However, those are mutually exclusive issues and one doesn't justify the other.

You start of by saying i'm right then you say that they are exclusive issues, so that's a contradiction on your part ADG. If he doesn't believe in the Bible, then why did he actually buy one and burn it and hang it...what kind of low life does that?

Personally, i've never felt the desire to burn a bible and I can't see myself ever getting to that stage. But I am not him.

It doesn't matter what you feel towards the Bible. I believe in it, I believe it contains the word of God which is sacred to me. If you cannot respect that then you don't belong in a civilized society.

Now you are showing intolerance and hatred, decidedly unchristian traits there Marco.

No I'm not. The Bible contains my beliefs, my faith and I'm standing up for them. You don't need to worry since you have no beliefs.

Yes it is my opinion, and I point out that you are simply posting your opinion. My statement stands. Saying there is no place in this world for a "nut like that" isn't a mature response to his actions.

And burning the Bible is mature? I don't think it's mature of you to accept such an intolerant idiot in our civilized society.

He most likely hung the bible there to get a reaction, and he got it.

Oh he'll definately get a reaction. Just like you always say in the Israel VS Palestine threads, there's a reaction for every action Big grin.

Your reaction harms your religion far more than his does.

Defending your ideas is harmful? I can remember a time when it was admirable to defend your beliefs, but I guess in today's world it's the thing to do.

Now you are posting absolute rubbish.

Is that always how you start off an argument?

If it were the Qu'ran the muslims would have been outrages, if it was the Torah the jews would have been outrages. I wouldn't have been.

You're not a Christian, I am. According to this argument I have the right to be outraged, thanks for proving my point.

I think what he did was silly and inflamatory, but I wouldn't have been outrages.

...because you're not a Christian.

You need to think a little more about your statements Marco, shame on YOU.

Shame on YOU for defending such intlerance and hatred.

Which fanatical athiests are these?

So athiests are perfect? Not one athiest has committed a crime?

I can generalise,

like you always do.

we all know that it's the fanatics who hijack and use a religion that cause the problems, not the people who live their lives as peaceful god loving people (of any religion), or those who peacefully live their lives without religion. We've had this discussion before.

And i've never disagreed with you on this point. This isn't the issue at hand, please stop jumping to different topics.

I'm not seeing common sense from you Marco.

Coming from someone who continuously contradicts herself I'll take this as a compliment. ADG you have no real stands, just emotional judgements.

You appear to hate quickly and comprehend slowly.

Nope, I defend my beliefs.

That is NOT a christian trait Marco.

Ok, what is not a Christian trait? The right to defend my own beliefs?

They should, but there is no law forcing them to. It's not THEIR Holy book, it is YOUR holy book.

That does give them the right not to believe, but that doesn't give them the right to commit such acts of intolerance and hatred towards their neighbors, friends,etc...

You don't respect the beliefs of others, how dare you demand others to respect your beliefs. You are quite hypocritical.

Have you seen me buring Korans or Torahs or any other holy books? Have you seen me making generalizations about athiests?

You have done alot of those things ADG, stop and think for a minute.

Really? How interesting. Are you assuming because a person is an athiest then they know nothing of christianity or are you simply being intolerant and saying i'm ignorant because I *choose* to be an athiest?

Don't turn this into an Athiest VS Christianity thread, i'm very aware of the tactics you use ADG. Back to the issue at hand. You cannot make assumptions on how a Christian would feel, because you're not a christian. You just said that Muslims would be outraged if he had burnt the koran, so even according to your argument it's us Christians who should be outraged, not non-Christians. Why? Becuase you don't believe in the Bible, can it get any simpler?

I'm sorry, but I think you should be very careful when making assumptions. Don't assume I know nothing about christianity because I made a choice not to believe Marco.

ADG you're free to believe in whatever you want. I'm not making assumptions about your knowledge of the Bible, stop twisting my words around and stop avoiding the issue at hand. I'm not even going to get into this argument with you ADG.

Before doing that, ask a person about their background.

Read my post more carefully next time before making assumptions ADG. I applaud your attempt to try to make me digress from the issue at hand Big grin.

My question is if you don't believe in the Bible/God why would you go to such lengths to prove a point???

Which point is that?


I don't know why don't you tell me? What exactly is he trying to prove by burning the Bible?

What you really mean is that you don't agree with me therefore you think it's invalid. Go tell those who knock on my door on a sunday that I don't have a point. Knowing that i'm not a christian they now have a mission, the only way to stop them is to have them arrested for tresspassing.

Ok you still didn't adress my argument. How is that intolerance. We tell you about our religion, we don't force you to convert. How is that intolerance?

do you really need me to explain the term "obviously that doesn't apply to all Christians" Marco?

explain : but enough to make it a valid comment which you wrote right after what you took out of context above. Explain that please. It's a generalization.

Come on now son, put a little thought into your responses or do us the courtesy of not responding at all.

I, on the other hand, believe that all opinions count, even yours so keep posting ADG.
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Marco
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 7:55 am

Marco tells me it's highly disrespectful to call the bible a work of fiction,

And it is, because you are insulting me, another human being.

yet that is my belief which has been jusitifed by the US court, is he not disrespecting my belief in his response? Isn't he demanding respect for his beliefs whilst refusing to respect mine?

That's a lie and you know it. I respect your beliefs, you don't respect mine which is why you're always doing the insulting/attacking/etc and I'm doing the defending.

Nuts,

You don't even have a point so I'm not even gonna bother answering your post.
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ExitRow
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 9:04 am

Marco: The problems in the world are caused by fanatics, athiests, etc...you can't generalize.

fa·nat·ic
n. A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause.

I'd say that's a pretty accurate description of you Marco.



 
GDB
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 9:22 am

Sounds like an intense person, (not another 'Trenchcoat Mafia' type I hope).
Maybe he's been compulsively watching Swaggart, Falwell etc.....drive any reasonable person a bit around the twist!
Or worse......reading Marco's postings!!!!!!
Being serious now, he might just have a very very dark or odd sense of humour, or just craves attention.
 
We're Nuts
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 10:22 am

Running away from my post, Marco? C'mon, answer!
Dear moderators: No.
 
Marco
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 12:28 pm

Exitrow,

A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause.

I'd say that's a pretty accurate description of you Marco.


I'm a fanatic? If that's what you think so then I don't care. You have never met me and you make such judgements, I hope you're never judged like that by anyone else. If you have something worth debating about, go ahead but if you want to insult me, then it reflects badly on you.

GDB,

Sounds like an intense person, (not another 'Trenchcoat Mafia' type I hope).
Maybe he's been compulsively watching Swaggart, Falwell etc....
drive any reasonable person a bit around the twist!
Or worse......reading Marco's postings!!!!!!


GDB you always resort to insults. You never discuss the topic, rather you resort to personal insults. What have I said to be called a fanatic. I respect others, and I want the same from others. I don't want someone burning my Holy book, that is my RIGHT. You, on the other hand, claim to be tolerant yet that only applies to situations with non-Christians. When it comes to Christians, all of you start throwing generalizations like "Hitler, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc"....I'm just going to laugh it off because if you knew any better you wouldn't say all of that. If you have more personal attacks (with someone you haven't met in person) then don't bother posting, I'm not going to sink to your level. Also I think it's cowardly to throw insults and hide behind a username.

Being serious now,

Something you rarely do...

he might just have a very very dark or odd sense of humour,

I don't see anything funny about this. If you cannot see what's wrong with the situation, then you're a hypocrite. Secondly, don't judge me or insult me, you don't know me. Stick to the topic at hand and stop resorting to cheap personal insults.

or just craves attention.

From a bunch of people online...right Insane.

I will always stand up for my right and my beliefs. I'll never stop if that's your intention. I respect your right not to believe but you MUST respect my right to practise my FAITH. There's no place for intolerance and mockery of my faith, or any other faith in a CIVILIZED society.

Nuts,

Running away from my post, Marco? C'mon, answer

Your post is not even worth answering. You're the one who does the running away. I always defend my faith and have done so on numerous occassions, which you have also participated in. Until you have a valid question/criticism rather than a flamebait, I won't answer you.



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We're Nuts
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 12:55 pm

What was my flaimbait?? It was an honest question! One which you, as of yet, cannot answer.
Dear moderators: No.
 
Marco
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 1:14 pm

Ok, how can you even begin to compare someone trying to tell you about their faith (in your example) to someone blatantly disrespecting another person's faith. Don't read it and move on with your life, that person is simply telling you about their faith, they're not forcing you to convert. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

If you disagree with the Bible, don't read it and don't buy it, period. I find it sad that someone would go to such lengths to prove a dumb point.
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tbar220
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 1:37 pm

ADG,

Ok, nobody can force this guy to respect our beliefs. He can disrespect them for all I care. It may upset me, but I suppose he can. But he crosses the line when he insults us, attacks us, and trods on our religion like that. Since when was it ok to insult people, attack their views, and do such activities?

Instead of putting up a burnt bible on his door, which myself and almost everybody on our floor saw as a hateful statement, he could have put a letter up on his door, or even started a debate or discussion group. Hell, I would have still thought he was aggressive and idiotic, but it would have been a much more sane way of doing it and a much less hurtful and disrespectful way of doing something.

Tell me, in doing what he did, he hurt a lot of people and insulted dozens. Is it ok for him to do that since he has that right? Well he has that right (free speech), but when communicating opinions, one must draw a line. Just look at his words in the letter, so full of violent words and anger. And the symbol of a burnt bible is bad enough.

And lastly, I will go back to my original point. He should not have burnt a bible! If an item is holy to somebody, do not destroy it. If it means so much to so many people, and burning it would cause so much grief and insult to so many people, don't do it! There's a way to tell somebody your opinion, and he did it wrong.
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We're Nuts
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:54 pm

Marco, that's a blatant double-standard. Couldn't a lack of faith be a faith itself? You can't respect his right to attack Christianity, but you don't mind attacking atheism. What's up?
Dear moderators: No.
 
Marco
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:57 pm

It's not double standard at all. How is my telling him about Christianity attacking his beliefs? Burning a Bible is not the equivalent of telling someone about Christ.
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tbar220
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:02 pm

Marco & We're Nuts,

Marco, you should respect his right to atheism, and sadly, he does have a right to free speech. Yet We're Nuts, he shouldn't attack religion the way he did, by posting a burnt bible up on his door in plain view for everyone to see and for many to get insulted by. He has to draw a line.
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We're Nuts
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:05 pm

I didn't say I agreed with him, but I'll die for his right to do it. Marco should too.
Dear moderators: No.
 
tbar220
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:13 pm

You'd die for his right specifically, or more so the bill of rights?
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We're Nuts
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:17 pm

You take away even his right, you might as well take them all away. So, at least in my thinking, you can't have one without the other.
Dear moderators: No.
 
cfalk
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:27 pm

Nuts,

Then I suppose that you would "die for his right to do it" if he planted a burning cross in front of some black people's houses? There is absolutely no difference. It's inflammatory.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
tbar220
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:40 pm

Cfalk,

I'm not sure if he would be allowed to burn a cross on somebody elses yard. I don't know if that's legal.

Just like I don't think he would have been allowed to tack up the burnt bible on my door. I think he could have gotten in serious trouble for doing that. I don't think that free speech applies to attacks on others, which I believe the previous two examples mentioned above are.
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jcs17
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RE: Atheist Gone Bad?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 4:07 pm

I cant believe people are actually sitting here and defending this guy. Listen, I am probably pretty darn close to being an athiest although I do hold Christian values. This is just a blatantly wrong action, is it free speech...I guess. Is it the right thing to do...no. I hardly consider myself Christian and I really would have belted the kid across the face (harder than I would hit Steven from the Dell commercial). It is highly offensive to the Christians of your residence hall and I would probably hit the kid. This kid needs to realize that rational people in society do not do these sorts of things. People can disagree, but to deface something that sacred to certain people is just wrong. Say he does that...oh, anywhere in America...someone will stop him and someone will probably hurt him. I doubt the college would do anything, except for ask him not to burn things inside the building. However, if he burned a Koran the administration would be up in arms...trust me.
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