Cessnapimp
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Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 2:37 am

Last Saturday, Captaingomes and I went to see this movie from a Director/writer I am very fond of, Michael Moore. I thought the film was very clever, with some hilarious segments like this one: http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/media/clips/index.php
...and click on " A brief history of America "

Essentially, the documentary is about the outdatedness of the third amendment, the right to bear arms, and the culture of fear that is being fed by the media in the United States. It is a film that I recommend for everyone to see.

Has anyone else seen it? Your opinions...

Grégoire
 
GDB
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 2:45 am

Not released here in the UK yet, though the filmaker Michael Moore is fairly well known here.
He's also an NRA member, which will surprise shock-jocks and all the other usual suspects lining up to attack him for exercising his right of free speech.
His publishers tried to censor his book last year too, then released it untouched, then it became a best seller.
 
AOMlover
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 3:09 am

I've seen Bowling for Columbine with my class.
It's very very interesting.
 
mika
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 3:18 am

I haven't seen it yet but i will as soon as it hits shelves here in sweden. I'm very excited to see it.
 
Rai
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 3:34 am

I have not seen this movie yet, but I’ve read some of his books and seen a couple of his other movies. I think he’s a lousy author, but a great filmmaker. He often brings up some good points, but goes way overboard on many issues to the point where it’s difficult to take him seriously.

My friend went to this political rally once and Moore was there. She actually got to meet him. She didn’t really say much one way or the other, but he seemed to be a nice guy, but maybe a bit overbearing with his beliefs (and she’s a card carrying Green Party member!).

By the way, Gregoire, it’s the Second Amendment, not the Third.
 
Guest

RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 3:56 am

I'm in the middle of listening to the audio version of his book Stupid White Men. I enjoy it very much.
 
Cessnapimp
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 4:33 am

Whoops! My Bad!

By the way, I failed to mention that this flim is the ONLY documentary to be admitted to Cannes in 46 years, where it received a 13 min standing ovation and flew away with the "palme d'or".
 
teva
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 7:33 am

I have seen this movie in a premiere, in France.
One of my surprises is that a lot of people did applaud DURING the projection (and after ... of course...)
The week of it release in France, even if it was not distributed in a lot of cinemas, it was N° 5 on the box office !!!
And it is only a documentary !!!
I don't ask everyone to agree with M. Moore. But I hope a lot of people will see it (especially Moore's opponents) and that they will think, and use the movie as a tool for an open discussion.

BTW, it didn't receive the palme d'or, but an award especially created for it:
"Prix special du 55eme festival"

Teva
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
teva
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 8:54 am

Cessnapimp, thanks for the link.
But I recommend people to see the introduction too. The stats that are given here are really impressive.
Just try
http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com
after that, look at the pictures, the press comments, etc.
In all the video links, the most surprising for me is the Bank.
You open an account... you choose your free gun. Inside the bank !!!
Maybe I am too Frenchie to understand...
Teva
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
captaingomes
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 9:54 am

Nice 5 star thread happening here!

Bowling for Columbine was in fact a wonderful movie. I don't agree with everything that Michael Moore says in the movie, but all in all he has done a marvelous job. He makes his argument in a very well thought out way.

What I do wonder however is how American viewers react to this movie. It is in fact very much a critique of America itself by using the gun laws as the prime example.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Rai
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 11:27 am

But I recommend people to see the introduction too. The stats that are given here are really impressive.

Actually, the statistics for firearm deaths he gives are dead wrong for the U.S. (can't confirm for the other countries) FBI has completely different (lower) figures. I trust the FBI's stats over Michael Moore's, sorry.
 
AMRAAM
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 1:28 pm

I saw this film at the San Sebastian film festival where it was very well received and won the 1st place public award.

Makes you wonder when you see these red neck hillbilly losers running around with AR-15's.
 
Cessnapimp
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 1:58 pm

My fav quote from the movie:

"Ya know, ya gotta protect yourself... there's a lot of freaks out there..."
 Laugh out loud
 
KAUSpilot
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 2:13 pm

From what I saw on the link above this film looks like trash. It will obviously appeal to the international crowd because it's a giant criticism of American Culture, and nothing is more popular in the world today than the vilification of America. I certainly wouldn't pay a cent to see it. The last thing I need is some "abused as a child" second rate hollywood reject telling me what's wrong with society.
 
AMRAAM
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 2:21 pm

Hollywood reject won an Oscar.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 2:38 pm

From what I saw on the link above this film looks like trash. It will obviously appeal to the international crowd because it's a giant criticism of American Culture, and nothing is more popular in the world today than the vilification of America.

Ya, whatever Kauspilot. Meanwhile, your fellow innocent Americans continue to die from gunshot. Given any actual thought to the 10 dead DC'ers today KAUSpilot? Betcha haven't. I have though.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
KAUSpilot
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 2:50 pm

Yyz717, you accuse me like I'm the sniper himself. Your personal attacks on me are yet another sign that your weak arguments supporting the prohibition of firearms are hollow, meaningless, and without substance. I've addressed just how irrelevant the DC sniper (and his ILLEGALLY obtained weapon) are to this discussion on other threads with you....try referencing those before you bring that up again here. Fortunately America will never "ban guns" like you so lustfully desire. Ignorance breeds fear, and you are more afraid of guns than anyone I've ever talked to......
 
captaingomes
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 2:51 pm

That's part of the problem KAUSpilot. Like I said, I don't agree with everything that this guy has to say, but his arguments are at least very good for stimulating debate. The gun control issue is a serious problem in the United States. Here in Canada, the laws have changed recently, where all firearms have to be registered. The problem with this is that it's those who use guns in a lawful manner which are being punished, while those who will use them for crime will obviously not use a registered gun.

You and others should watch this movie, because it really isn't trash, and it's basically a very valid opinion on a serious problem which currently exists in the United States. And I don't think I'm bashing America when I say that either.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
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yyz717
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 2:55 pm

weak arguments supporting the prohibition of firearms are hollow, meaningless, and without substance

There are 10 dead Americans in DC Kauspilot, who would still be alive if the US had stricter gun laws....a la Canada. I've been thinking of those 10 dead Americans and their grieving families. You don't appear to have been.

Bans guns now for a safer America.




I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
KAUSpilot
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 3:00 pm

Capt, I agree with you for the most part. I support stricter regulations on gun ownership. It is a prudent step in light of continuing abuse of the second amendment. However, people who call for the outright banishment of firearms altogether are ludicrous in my opinion. It should always be possible for law abiding citizens with a clean record to purchases a firearm.

YYZ, how many times do I have to reiterate: The DC SNIPER OBTAINED HIS WEAPON ILLEGALLY. Gun control laws would not have prevented this pyscho from obtaining his weapons. Honestly, the sooner you come to terms with this fact the better off you will be.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 3:03 pm

The DC SNIPER OBTAINED HIS WEAPON ILLEGALLY

Correct....because of the MASSIVE supply of legal handguns in circulation!

Reduce the LEGAL gun supply ~ you reduce the illegal gun supply ~ you reduce gun crime and murder!

Until you do, every gun-loving American is indirectly responsible for the innocent murder of Americans by gunshot, which is shameful.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
KAUSpilot
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 3:17 pm

Afraid not Yyz717. The proliferation of the illegal drug industry has proven that making something illegal doesn't curb demand, and demand determines supply.

To accuse all gun loving Americans borders on insanity if I may venture to say so. Never have I seen a more shining example of flawed logic.

http://www.fedupcanada.org/Media/media_211.htm


You see, all handguns in Canada have had to be registered since 1934. All handgun owners have had to have special permission to own their guns, special permits to transport them from their homes to their shooting ranges, and have had to abide by especially stringent storage laws.

And yet, the government's own homicide statistics for 1999 show what they have shown every year since 1991, the most common type of firearm used in murders is ... a handgun.

"Handguns were used in 55 per cent of all firearm homicides,'' according to the official report, "a proportion that has remained relatively constant'' for the past decade. Prior to 1991, also according to an earlier StatsCan report, handguns accounted for around 30 per cent of firearms murders.

In other words, in the past 10 years or so, despite the 66-year-old requirement that all handguns be registered, there has been a near doubling of the use of handguns in murders.

Why? It is surely not because law-abiding owners have upped their use of them. Indeed, lawful handgun ownership has likely declined during the past decade as more and more restrictions have been placed on owners.

No, the reason handguns are more often used in murders now is that more and more criminals prefer them, and no matter what the registration requirements imposed by Ottawa, criminals won't be deterred from the illegal ownership and use of firearms.


 
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yyz717
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 3:31 pm

You're right. Let the NRA win. Let innocent Americans continue to die in the name of the gun-loving American culture. Maybe, perhaps, it will be one of your loved ones who gets gunned down one day. But that's okay, if the criminal who used the gun to kill your relative is caught and held accountable. Yessirree.....the fact that he stole a gun from a legitimate gun owner (or bought it illegally) is okay since he's going to prison.

Man o man.....what a mentality.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
KAUSpilot
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 3:56 pm

It's sad that you actually hope for more innocents to be murdered just so you can add weight to a hopeless argument. You can keep right on hoping my entire family will get murdered this week for all I care. I know that would make your day if it happened. And FYI, I have lost a relative to Gun violence. That experience did not change my stance on this issue at all. Guess what? He was involved in drugs. Random acts of violence like the sniper are the exception rather than the rule, despite the fact that they get 99% of the media attention.

What you don't hear about are the gang bangers that mow each other down by the dozen every weekend......these types incidents get chalked up in the statistics and represent the majority of gun crime, yet the perception of people like you seems to be that you can't go walking down the street of a major American city at night without getting shot....simply not true. There is an element of lifestyle which for some reason does not get considered in the statistics, and those who lead this lifestyle have no regard for the law, weather it be a law about theft, a law about drugs, a law about gun control, or a law about murder.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Tue Oct 29, 2002 10:07 pm

It's sad that you actually hope for more innocents to be murdered just so you can add weight to a hopeless argument.

What an incredible twisting of logic. My interest in banning guns is to save lives. Your interest in not banning guns is to promote the US gun-culture above public safety.

I have lost a relative to Gun violence. That experience did not change my stance on this issue at all. Guess what? He was involved in drugs.

So, in other words.....he got what he deserved?? Maybe he just needed some help.

Just think about those 10 dead DC-ers today KAUSpilot mowed down by that sniper.....just for 5 minutes. Think of how their lives could have been saved.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
KAUSpilot
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Wed Oct 30, 2002 5:13 am

In my opinion, their lives could only have been saved if John Muhammad had elected not to go insane and start killing people, or if law enforcement had gotten lucky earlier and arrested him on something unrelated. I feel Muhammad and Malvo probably would've devised a bomb or something if they couldn't have obtained a gun.
 
L-188
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Wed Oct 30, 2002 8:04 am

I haven't seen it, not planning on seeing it.

But I will be going out and looking for an AR-15 lower in the near future.

Anybody hear anything about that company that is allegedly making an upper that will be chambered in .50 Action Express? That is the same round that is used in the really big Desert Eagle pistols.

I don't know how anybody can afford to keep up with Brady's proposed buy 1 gun a month program. I can't afford it, those things are expensive.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
ILOVEA340
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Wed Oct 30, 2002 8:34 am

Actually I have seen his numbers for gun deaths more often. Personaly I gave the FBI muchg less credibility.
 
Cessnapimp
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Wed Oct 30, 2002 2:06 pm

KAUSpilot,

Your refusal to hear what a documentary has to say about gun control in the United States portrays perfectly the kind of isolationism that the rest of the world loves to feast upon. Not agreeing with another’s philosophy is... well… human, but downright closing your eyes and ears to new trains of thought, that’s plain Texan.

Grégoire

 
KAUSpilot
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Wed Oct 30, 2002 2:17 pm

Ha! I watched all four of the free segments that were provided and saw nothing that would compel me to spend money. So, despite your accusations, I am willing to hear these arguments, however absurd they may be. Just don't expect me to come back with praise for the promotion of stupidity. There's nothing new about the flawed philosophy of oppressive governmental control of civil liberties.....Marxism, socialism, totalitarianism have been around for centuries.

Not agreeing with another’s philosophy is... well… human, but downright closing your eyes and ears to new trains of thought, that’s plain Texan.

Keep trying. I'll stay here. You can keep the People's Repulik of Kanada.
 
radarbeam
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Wed Oct 30, 2002 2:42 pm

KAUSpilot,

Your refusal to see the other side of the argument is appalling. I have never almost agreed with Yyz717, but IMHO this time Neil is right. Guns are simply a tool to kill people, it cannot mow the lawn nor cook a roast beef, it's only utility is to kill people. That being said I can't understand why so many people enjoy having such a dangerous thing at home, especially with children. Guns kill, simple. Now if you use a bit of logic, you would understand that if the number of firearms are lower then their use would be lowered thus effectively reducing the number of gun-related deaths. I wonder how many more dead Americans are needed to open the eyes of the gun-loving, NRA-cult members Americans.

Radarbeam
 
captaingomes
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Wed Oct 30, 2002 2:46 pm

I was able to find some compelling statistics, which I brought up for the sake of good debate, but nobody seems to be adressing them. One of the interesting statistics shows that more Americans in the year of the study died as a result of firearms than motorvehicles!
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
KAUSpilot
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Wed Oct 30, 2002 2:47 pm

Guns aren't simply a tool to kill people. They are used for sport, they are used to hunt, they are used for protection. Hell, there's even an olympic sport that uses guns. Get real.
 
L-188
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Wed Oct 30, 2002 5:00 pm

I hunt.

There are several Olympic sports that uses rifles and pistols

I have some doubts about those statistics. Are deaths by drunk drives counted as alcohol or automobiles or both. I have a feeling that they may have been manipulated to produce a certain outcome.


I can't believe somebody just called a Department of Justice number false. The fact that Moore has a different number just shows the shoddy nature of his filmography
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
mika
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Thu Oct 31, 2002 9:01 am

Michael Moore, the director of Bowling for Columbine appeared on the Donahue show this monday. I didn't have the opportunity to see it myself but i read a transcript from the show and found it very insightfull. Here's a good part from it:

When I moved to New York City a decade ago, there were 2,100 murders that year. New York then enacted very strong gun laws. You cannot really-you can’t buy a gun in New York City. Last year there were 600 and some murders, down from 2,100. This will reduce a lot of it. But it’s not the full solution.
And that’s why I agree with the NRA in part, when they say guns don’t kill people, people kill people. Because it really is the people. But I’d like to define people the as-you know, I’d like to say guns don’t kill people, Americans kill people. Because I think that’s what’s really at the core of this.
And we need ask ourselves, why do we, as Americans, do this? And the French don’t do it, the Germans don’t do it, the Canadians don’t do it. They’re not any better than us. They’re not any less violent as a people. They’re humans, they have the same responses as we have. Why don’t they go for the gun and kill at the rate that we do?



What's your comment's on that statement? (And to state the obvious, i am NOT trying to make the US look bad or bash it in any way. I just think this is an interesting and nescesary debate.)

The full transcript can be found at: http://www.msnbc.com/news/827637.asp?cp1=1
 
Rai
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Thu Oct 31, 2002 9:18 am

Based on the full transcript, he seems to want the U.S. to beccome part of Canada!
 
747-451
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Thu Oct 31, 2002 9:23 am

"When I moved to New York City a decade ago, there were 2,100 murders that year. New York then enacted very strong gun laws. You cannot really-you can’t buy a gun in New York City. Last year there were 600 and some murders, down from 2,100. "

How interesting that during this time that the inept, racist, disgusting and incompetent Dinkins was elected out of office and Giulianni was elected in, and not the gun laws--since crime in general went down during this time as well and laws were "actually enforced".....

how appropriate Moore on Donahue  Yeah sure
 
mika
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Thu Oct 31, 2002 9:30 am

Why don’t they go for the gun and kill at the rate that we do?


Admit that this is a good question at least. Does anyone have the answer to this?
 
Rai
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Thu Oct 31, 2002 9:43 am

Yes, 747-451. I agree.

I should also add that Moore’s correlation of NYC crime statistics with gun control is simplistic and not entirely true. I used to work with a law enforcement agency here in NYC and I did research on NYC’s falling crime rate. There are many other factors involved as well: vastly improving economy, much, much larger police force (Peter Vallone’s “Safe Streets, Safe City” initiative), a more aggressive police force, a new approach on tackling crime (broken windows theory), the quality of life crime initiative, changing demographics, a good economy, tougher sentencing and a mayor who made it his mission to improve the situation and standing of the city. Gun regulation probably did have some effect, but it was a combination of many, many factors that improved NY’s fortune.

NY had an ineffective mayor during the high-crime years. Dinkins never really acknowledged that there was a problem and when he finally did, he did little to stop it. In fact, he openly criticized the NYPD, which destroyed morale among the cops. Yes, crime did start to decrease towards the end of the Dinkins administration, BUT it really plummeted with the more aggressive policing that the Giuliani administration brought in.

Sorry for going off topic, but it is important to have that clarification.
 
747-451
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Rai

Thu Oct 31, 2002 10:04 am

Actually, you haven't gone off the topic. You clarify my statement and also demonstrate that there is more to crime control than "simplistic gun banning" arguements--note this can be applied to any city as well.
 
mika
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Thu Oct 31, 2002 10:09 am

And if you read the transcript carefully Moore says that he doesn't believe that it's all about gun control and tighter laws. He makes an excelent example with the 6 year old that shot another 6 year old in Flint, Michigan.
 
747-451
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Thu Oct 31, 2002 2:23 pm

"Why don’t they go for the gun and kill at the rate that we do?"

Micahel Moore makes the mistake of using Japan as an example of contrast to the US. There are too many differences between Japan, for example, and the United States to draw simple correlations, among them the religious, income levels, racial and educational make ups as well as densities of the populations. Unfortunately, these are issues. Same goes for Germany, France and all the other countries he mentions.

Secondly, there are other issues which also cannot be discounted such as the disparity of law enforcement between individual states in the US and the laws that govern those states.

Michael Moore states :"It’s the country I live in, the violence and everything." I don't know what he is talking about; I have sepnt most of my life in very densely populated cities and don't see the levels of violence he talks about (mostly NY and not in a suburb either)...One of the most violent things I ever saw were the Crown Heights here in '92--riots that resulted in several deaths, astounding amounts of proerty damage and suprisingly NO guns. The weapons were a knife and an automobile ( a registered and insured one operated by a licensed driver), and the spark was a car accident. All of this occurred under the watch of gun laws and and a liberal mayor (who even retricted the police actions to quell the riots for several hours). I wonder if Mr. Moore was here at that time (he says he was here a decade ago, but I don't know which NY he was in apparently). (Actually, I live in the cradle of violence, one of the worst acts in the history of Earth, mainly 9/11 and that wasn't a "gun" that did it either...)

Michael Moore more also tries to juxtapose Lockheed Martin being in Littleton and the violence in Columbine--if his theory was correct, then Renton, Long Beach and Kansas City (Boeing), Marietta (Martin Marrietta), Coronado (Convair), Long Island (Grumman) should all be bathed in blood as well  Yeah sure

Michael Moore does nothing to truly elaborate and disseminate the real reasons behind Columbine, He even admits that even by removing the guns, it doesn't cure the other issues (in this case listless, unguided youth and parental complacency among others). His solutions are as simplistic as cheap socialist theory and by "throwing money at it".

It is also interesting to note that the film was apparently funded by Canadian film makers and we know how neutral and ambivelent they are in this issue  Yeah sure

Actually, his constant comparisons between the US and Canada are galling as well. We are not Canada; and for better or worse we have different points of view on many issues. We are diffeent countries with differing cultures and attitudes. We also have different solutions for our problems. If Mr. Moore feels that other countries have the solutions and is displeased with ours, he can leave, since he offers no "compelling" or "new" solutiuons for us to embrace with his one sided film..
 
Rai
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Thu Oct 31, 2002 2:53 pm

Took the words right out of my mouth, 747-451!  Big thumbs up I probably couldn't have stated any better than you.

Anyways, I'm off on vacation tomorrow. Have fun debating guys!
 
mika
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RE: Bowling For Columbine

Thu Oct 31, 2002 6:31 pm

747,


I will agree with the comparing to Canada part. It got a little beat up in that transcript at least. I haven't seen the movie itself yet so i wouldn't know about that.


About the true reasons behind columbine, again, this is not a anti gun movie and he several times admits that banning handguns would not make it all alright. His solution is not to ban all handguns but it's a part of the solution. In case you didn't catch that, read my previous post. I will never try to convince anyone that columbine happened because of there is guns in the US. It happened because of 2 individuals being treated as s*it for 4 years in their high school and eventually became sick of life and everything about it an then choose to exit it with a blast. This is, in my mind, the most tragic event in US history. Maybe it would have been avoided with tighter gun laws maybe not but one has to take everything into considaration.
 
747-451
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Mika

Fri Nov 01, 2002 5:32 am

However, Mika, this movie and all the press relating to it and a majority of posts on this board make it a "gun" issue.

My major complaint with Mr. Moore and his ilk is that they offer NO SOLUTIONS to the problems (other than banning guns); anyone and everyone who watches news programs or reads papers knows that crime is a problem and that guns are used. However, making "guns" the scapegoat is easy. (Columbine, though tragic was not 9/11, the worst act ever on US soil.)

It also galls me and many others that we are constantly compared to Europe, Canada, Asia etc. We are not those countries, we are the US and just as everyother country has its own set of values, allow us to have the same; no one society is better than anyone else here, since I can cite chapter and verse the evils of other societies, and many more worse than handgun use (eg, Germany and Nazism, Japan and the Death March of Bataan, Iran for for being a despotic theocracy) come to mind since those events were more than just guns and so completely vicious)).

And quite shocking on the part of this liberal mindset of Which Mr. Moore plays among others, it that for all the moralizing about how great other societies are, they leave out the "multicultre" aspect of it--a card liberals play with ease when pusing their agendas on other subjects. They also leave out all the other "so called" hotspots on their agenda like "education", "family structure" and other social issues which distinguish the US from other societies (and those also seem to be factors they ignore when they negatively impact their point of view).

No, banning guns is not and will not be the issue, because if not guns then something else.

As far as Canada, our neighbor to the north, we are more alike than they wish to admit.  Yeah sure
 
teva
Posts: 1764
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 12:31 am

RE: Bowling For Columbine

Fri Nov 01, 2002 6:18 am

747-451
You are right. He doesn't give solution in this movie.
The objective is that people watching the movie will think about problems, start discussion, and build their possible solutions . He also hopes that people will be more open minded, and accept that there is not only ONE way of life.
This is a documentary. And the USA are something special.
The only reason for doing the comparison is to study the possible solution and make sure no aspect of the problem is forgotten, no shortcut is taken. He never says Canada or Europe is better than the US. He never says the opposite too.
He really loves his country. When you watch movie, you have no doubt. He only says the USA have a problem. But what is this problem.
The start point is the US have the highest crime rate by firearm. Why?
He just say what a lot of American say:
"There is violence in the US because violence has been a part of our history"
Then he says that if you look at the history of Europe, we had quite a lot of violence, even in our recent history (in Ireland, in Germany with Hitler, in France with the colonial war in Algeria) . Then, look at the crime rate in those countries. It is lower than in the States. Conclusion: this violence is not the cause.
Other example: US citizen have the constitutional right to have guns. In Switzerland, citizens have to have gun, as part as the defense of the country. What is the crime rate in Switzerland ???
Conclusion, having firearms is not the cause.
And he does the same with a lot of hypothesis.

I hope that those examples (even if I do not report them perfectly because of my English) will make some of the forum members revise their opinion and that a lot of people will watch the movie.
Teva
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
mika
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2000 7:53 am

RE: Bowling For Columbine

Fri Nov 01, 2002 7:11 am

I agree with Teva, The movie is supposed to spark a debate not nescessarily give answers.
 
747-451
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 5:50 am

Teva

Fri Nov 01, 2002 7:54 am

You make too many incorrect assumptions, here is where you are "wrong":

1) US citizens are debating the issue regarding crime and law since long before Columbine or 9/11.

2) We are open minded and as just the fact that this film exists, demonstrates that there are many views to this issue being discussed. (The US is not entirely made up of "right wing gun fanatics"). We already are open minded, and more so than most tother places because the US is so diverse bioth ethnically and cultureal- don't loose site of that please and population statistics bare that out.

3) Read the link Mika put showing Moore apppearance on Donahue's show; since it is there that Moore makes his indictments...and how many people here on this forum compare the US to other countries. Secondly, Moore cheapens the US by trying to compare us to inconguous other cultures. "Other example: US citizen have the constitutional right to have guns. In Switzerland, citizens have to have gun, as part as the defense of the country. What is the crime rate in Switzerland ??" Once again, we are not Switzerland...or anyplace else.

4)"There is violence in the US because violence has been a part of our history"
Then he says that if you look at the history of Europe, we had quite a lot of violence, even in our recent history (in Ireland, in Germany with Hitler, in France with the colonial war in Algeria) . Then, look at the crime rate in those countries. It is lower than in the States. Conclusion: this violence is not the cause." --Teva, re read my posts and I describe exactly why guns are not the issue and the societal cultural issues that are the issue. Violence has been part of every "culture" since the cavemen were throwing stones.

5) what is is that people cannot understand that what may be right for France, Germany or Switzerland will NOT neccessarily be right for the US.

6) Europeans/others should also cease the shrillness about "openmindedness" or the lack there of. That is presumptuousness since we will proably come up with solutions which do not fit their point of view and that the US is more than Bill clinton, Phil Donahue, Barbra Streisand or CNN.

My real complaint about a movie like this is that it presents a problem poorly and one sidedly by some "sidewalk social scientist" and offeres no new solutuions or ideas. All it succeeds in doing is portraying and feeding negative stereotypes about the US and it's so called radical right wing/NRA/gun culture.

 
747-451
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Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 5:50 am

Mika

Fri Nov 01, 2002 8:16 am

See above, we have been debating this issue since way before 9/11, Columbine or anywhere else. And we didn't need a faulted movie to do it either..

Secondly, I offered some insights into your question "Why don’t they go for the gun and kill at the rate that we do?"

 
mika
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2000 7:53 am

747

Fri Nov 01, 2002 8:46 am

See above, we have been debating this issue since way before 9/11, Columbine or anywhere else. And we didn't need a faulted movie to do it either..


Obviously you haven't discussed it good enough since only last week did a guy go postal at a US University killing 4 including himself. And a week ago 2 snipers kept Washington in terror. This shows that movies like these have a perfect need in american society.



Secondly, I offered some insights into your question "Why don’t they go for the gun and kill at the rate that we do?"


Actually, i still don't get it. What is it that differs america from the rest of the world in this case? If it's not the amount of "loose" fire arms or the lack of good gun laws then what is it?


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