galaxy5
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So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 12:53 am

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (AP) - Saudi Arabia warned non-Muslim residents Sunday not to eat, drink or smoke in public during the fasting hours of the Islamic holy month of Ramadan, starting later this week.
A statement by the Ministry of Interior, carried by the official Saudi Press Agency, said violators could face "deterrent measures" that include loosing their jobs and deportation.

The ministry issues similar warnings every year just before the start of Ramadan, which is expected to begin this year around Nov. 6, depending on the sighting of the new crescent moon.

There are seven million foreigners living in Saudi Arabia, of whom two million are non-Muslims. The kingdom has a population of about 19 million.

Fasting during Ramadan - the holiest month of the Islamic calendar- is one of Islam's five pillars. Muslims believe that it was during Ramadan that the Quran, their holy book, was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad some 1,400 years ago. During the month, devout Muslims abstain from eating, drinking, smoking and sex between sunrise and sunset.

Saudi Arabia is the home of Islam's holiest shrines in Mecca and Medina and views itself as the chief protector of the faith.

"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
pacificjourney
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 1:01 am

Other than the fact you actively dislike Saudi Arabia - which we knew anyway - what exactly is your point ?
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Alessandro
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 1:06 am

Well, it´s like threating to expell Muslims non-citizens that wear traditional clothes in public,
then the muslim world would be very upset....
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yyz717
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 1:09 am

As the "home" country of Mecca, I can understand Saudi Arabia wanting to encourage Muslim traditions & rites. However, this act does little to indicate to the world that Islam is a tolerant religion.

Those 2M non-Muslim foreigners in Saudi Arabia are there helping the local economy.....respect by the SA authorities for their non-Muslim traditions should be expected.
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Hamfist
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 2:00 am

I think the point is pretty clear. Why should non-Muslim citizens be forced to follow Muslim customs or traditions?

I think Galaxy5 is just pointing out the unaccomodating nature of the Saudi national leadership. Seems a truly understanding and tolerant religion would recognize that not everyone shares their beliefs.





 
david b.
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 2:09 am

How stupid are you people. SA is ruled by a royal family. They make the rules. Nothing to do with religion. They need to accomadate non-muslims. Again, it has nothing to do with religion but rather the royal family forcing non-muslims to follow the rules of religion. So, if anything blame the government, not the religion.

The person who posted this knows nothing about the ME.
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B747-437B
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 2:09 am

The requirements here are for ALL residents, Muslim and Non-Muslim alike, to refrain from smoking, eating or drinking in public during fasting hours. That is not an unreasonable condition. Heck, most major US cities have NO SMOKING ordinances in public buildings. SINGAPORE does not allow you to eat or drink aboard public transport.

Saudi Arabia still allows all people to smoke, eat or drink in the privacy of their home or hotel whenever they like. It isn't like they are trying to force an unreasonable modification of behavior upon people. They are simply mandating, as every government does, that people keep those actions private.

Sorry, but for all the faults that the Saudi government has, this isn't one of them.
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yyz717
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 2:19 am

Nothing to do with religion. They need to accomadate non-muslims. Again, it has nothing to do with religion but rather the royal family forcing non-muslims to follow the rules of religion.

This is a self-contradictory statement. Of course it's all about religion.....in particular, the suppression of non-Muslim practices....not very enlightening for the "centre" of Islam. And yes, this DOES reflect on the entire Muslim world.

The requirements here are for ALL residents, Muslim and Non-Muslim alike, to refrain from smoking, eating or drinking in public during fasting hours. That is not an unreasonable condition.

Of course it's unreasonable! Since I'm not Muslim, why should I follow ANY Muslim practices???????
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
david b.
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 2:24 am

The ban is similar to the ones the US government issue on smoking and cell phones. Smoking is not allowed in public buildings, cell phones can't be used while driving (in NY). It is similar to what the SA government is doing. They are trying to preserve Muslim traditions. I think the punishment is too harsh but that's not our problem. How about Sunday blues laws? Liquor can't be sold before noon on Sunday? What's up with that? How about all non-Catholics and non-Christians? We cant buy beer? Seems like a truly understanding and tolerant religion would recognize that not everyone shares their beliefs.

Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
B747-437B
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 2:28 am

Since I'm not Muslim, why should I follow ANY Muslim practices

Smoking, eating and drinking in public are hardly "Muslim practices". I see people of every religion, including Muslims, engaging in all three of those activities on a daily basis around the world.

Yes, the motivation for this ban may be religious in its origin, but the ban covers what is strictly speaking a civic issue and does not force religion upon anyone. Its not as if they are forcing non-Muslims to fast or visit the mosques. They are simply requiring them to conduct certain activities in private, which is their absolute right as a sovereign government.
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david b.
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 2:31 am

Its a muslim country and the least you could do is respect their religion. What is wrong with that?

This is a self-contradictory statement. Of course it's all about religion.....in particular, the suppression of non-Muslim practices....not very enlightening for the "centre" of Islam. And yes, this DOES reflect on the entire Muslim world.

It has something to do with religion. It has more to do with the government trying to enforce it. The government is supressing it, not the people. There is a difference. All Israelis are right wing radicals? Do they reflect on the entire Jewish "world"? Some people can tell the difference between the government and the people.
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galaxy5
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 2:33 am

Hey DAVID how many times have you been to the middle east?
"The person who posted this knows nothing about the ME."

well? ive been there to many times to count and go there on a regular basis, have you yet to experience the ME in all its glory. Well i wish you would maybe it would wake you up and open your small mind.
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
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yyz717
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 2:49 am

Its a muslim country and the least you could do is respect their religion. What is wrong with that?

Nothing. But do Muslim immigrants to the UK, Italy or Germany respect Christian norms? Of course not. So why should Westerners be expected to when visiting Muslim countries?

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
777236ER
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 2:57 am

Thing is, I wouldn't call the UK at least a Christian country. Sure it has Christian history but now it's too diverse to be called a Christian country.
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Arsenal@LHR
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:03 am

Muslim bashing is "cool" for certain members here.

However, this act does little to indicate to the world that Islam is a tolerant religion.

Whatever you think, islam is a tolerant religion.

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yyz717
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:03 am

I wouldn't call the UK at least a Christian country. Sure it has Christian history but now it's too diverse to be called a Christian country.

95% of Brits are Christian, albeit the majority are non-practising. All of the UK institutions (rule of law, democracy, private enterprise, private property, freedom of speech, tolerance) were gained during the centuries of Christian enlightenment. It's only the last generation that sizable numbers of Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs & others have migrated to the UK. Hence, the UK is definitely a Christian country.

The question needs to be asked why are Christian-majority countries willing to allow in Muslim immigrants while Muslim countries not only don't allow Christian immigration but actively restrict Christians rites such as Saudi Arabia is doing.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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yyz717
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:05 am

Muslim bashing is "cool" for certain members here......Whatever you think, islam is a tolerant religion.

The actions by the Saudi Arabian government suggest that it is not tolerant.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
B747-437B
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:07 am

do Muslim immigrants to the UK, Italy or Germany respect Christian norms?

Curious what you mean by "Christian norms"?
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B747-437B
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:09 am

The actions by the Saudi Arabian government suggest that it is not tolerant.


No, the actions of the Saudi Arabian government suggest that THEY are not tolerant.
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Marco
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:11 am

I can't believe there are people actually defending Saudi Arabia. What happened to freedom, democracy, etc?

Is shoving your religion down people's throats acceptable?

Arsenal, just out of curiosity have you studied Islam, or read the Koran?
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Arsenal@LHR
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:11 am

The actions by the Saudi Arabian government suggest that it is not tolerant.

The Saudi Arabian government (or royal family) does not, and will not represent the views of islam.

In Arsene we trust!!
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:13 am

Arsenal, just out of curiosity have you studied Islam, or read the Koran?

I am muslim. Does that answer your question?

In Arsene we trust!!
 
Marco
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:14 am

Yes it does.

It still doesn't change my views on Islam though.
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Arsenal@LHR
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:16 am

You can have your beliefs, but the facts don't change.
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Marco
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:17 am

but the facts don't change

Exactly Big grin
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777236ER
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:18 am

Yyz, I live in the UK and it's definatly not a Christian country, as you can call Saudia Arabia a muslim country. Like the US and Canada, there's total seperation of state and church (religion). Not so in the case of other countries. To say 95% of Britains are Christian is absurd. In London there are 1.6 million ethnic minorities. Throughout the UK there's 6-10% ethnic minorities (at which point do they stop being minorities?). From those that aren't ethnic minorities, not much above half are Christian - Christian implying following the Bible, going to church etc. The UK is too diverse to be caleld a Christian country, much like the US is too diverse to call it a Christian country either.
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Marco
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:21 am

But the majority of the population is Christian. These countries were built on Christian foundations. Although I tend to agree that these countries aren't so much Christian anymore, unfortunately, they have Christian history and traditions and that should not be forgotten.
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Hepkat
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:35 am

Here in Austria, a staunchly Roman Catholic country, all businesses are closed on Sundays, the Sabbath, by law. No one, whether Muslim, Christian, Jew or Whatever, is allowed to transact business on this day. Is this fair to the non-Christian percentage of the population? Are they being forced to abide by Christian ideals? Is this much different from what the Saudi Arabian government is doing?
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:36 am

The UK is one of the most multicultural countries on earth with many nationalities and faiths living together (much to your dissapointment).

In Arsene we trust!!
 
777236ER
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:43 am

So what Marco? It's not a Christian country. You may think it is, but I live here and it's not.
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avt007
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:44 am

Look, it's very simple- those 2 million foreigners are there to work. Essentially, the Saudi government is their boss, since they only have a job at the governments pleasure. If your boss says do this or that, you do, if you want to keep your job. Anything more is just whining.
 
mandala499
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:44 am

D'oh...
This Saudi decree applies to RESIDENT'S ONLY... whatever their religion. Tourists and visitors need not comply (but be considerate...)

But, at least in Indonesia (the world's biggest Muslim population), no such laws exist... However it is considered rude to smoke, drink, eat in public during fasting hours outside restaurants, cafes and foodcourts.

Tolerance, courtesy and consideration is the word... *Thank God I don't live in Saudi Arabia*

Mandala499
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Guest

RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:53 am

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you guys because I'm views on the subject are fairly clear, but I'll say this - I am not surprised at all by the Saudi decision which is fine because I wouldn't have expected anything better from them.

I think the question the original poster is raising is: Why is the US a strategic ally of a country with such limited freedoms as this?

TNNH
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:54 am

Why is the US a strategic ally of a country with such limited freedoms as this?

Oil.

In Arsene we trust!!
 
Marco
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 4:06 am

777 read my post carefully and think about what you wrote.
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777236ER
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 4:08 am

I'm not talking about forgetting Christian histories and traditions. That's not the point. Yyz said Britain was a Christian country, which it isn't.
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Marco
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 4:17 am

But did I say it was?

The majority of the population considers itself as Christian...that should matter.
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777236ER
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 4:21 am

You didn't say it was, Yyz did. The majority of the population considers itself Christian, true. However, the majority of the population is white. The majority of the population doesn't have heart disease. The majority of the population are female. The majority of the population are not of child bearing age.

Just because a group is the majority means nothing.
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yyz717
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 4:45 am

Just because a group is the majority means nothing.

Errr...no. It means quite a lot. It means they are the predominant group, and their rites & customs invariably will prevail.

Why is the US a strategic ally of a country with such limited freedoms as this?

Oil.


For once, I agree with Arsenal.

The Saudi Arabian government (or royal family) does not, and will not represent the views of islam.

Oh yes, it absolutely does. Saudi Arabia is arguably the "centre" of Islam, much as Italy/Rome is (or was) the centre of Christianity. Saudi Arabia plays a large role in setting the moral tone of the entire Muslim world.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ryanb741
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 6:11 am

Arsenal@LHR - are you by any chance ethnically Bangladeshi? It's just that Hoque is a surname you sometimes see in Bangladesh.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 7:38 am

It means they are the predominant group, and their rites & customs invariably will prevail.

and

The majority of the population doesn't have heart disease. The majority of the population are not of child bearing age.

I would just LOVE to know what "rites and customs" 777236ER thinks people with "heart disease" all share or those of "child bearing age" commonly have? Thanks pal.

 Big thumbs up Hahaha. Idiotic response dude. You can do much better than this.

Tongue firmly in cheek,
TNNH
 
777236ER
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 7:55 am

Yeah I know I can TNNH. Hey, it's pretty late and I got pretty damn drunk last night. Big grin Anyway...

My rather muddled point was that the majority doesn't reign supreme. I was trying to put across that just because the majority doesn't have heart disease means to say that the UK is a country without heart disease, or that money shouldn't be spent on combatting heart disease. Admittedly, the link between that and religion is extremely tenuous.

Nevertheless, just because the majority are Christian doesn't mean Britain is Christian. Britain is VERY diverse, any most other British people would disagree with Yyz's view that Britain is Christian. To call Saudia Arabia muslim is a lot more realistic as there is a lot less sepearation of church and state, not to mention laws and customs based heavily on Islam. Whereas a lot of Western laws are based on Christian beliefs, you'll also find that these beliefs are the core beliefs of most religions and cultures (murder is wrong etc etc) and in the West laws and customs don't go to the religious extent that they do in other countries.

I've forgotten the point of all this or how this really started, I really should get some sleep.  Sad
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Arsenal@LHR
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 9:44 am

Arsenal@LHR - are you by any chance ethnically Bangladeshi? It's just that Hoque is a surname you sometimes see in Bangladesh.

How did you guess? Big grin
In Arsene we trust!!
 
jaysit
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 11:12 am

Saudi Arabia is a Muslim monarchy and a theocracy. Those foreigners who live and work there know the rules of the game before they arrive. For all their inherent stupidity, intolerance and venality (Yes, I have been to Saudi Arabia and I've never been to any other place on God's green earth that I've wanted to leave sooner) this regulation is not a basis by which to condemn them. Non-Muslims can eat all the food they want in the privacy of their own homes, and in any case, they're not exactly munching pizza as they sashay down the streets. If the Pope asked women not to wear mini-skirts in the Vatican - or eat hot dogs on a friday in public - would you condemn him for his edicts?
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WorldVoyager
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 11:22 am

The argument that a foreigner should not have to follow these rules because Saudi Arabians do not have to follow any such rules in other (ie Western)countries is irrelevant.

Western countries are based on principles of equality and freedom; Saudi Arabia is not. Therefore, if you decide to live in Saudi Arabia, you follow its rules, whether you agree with them or not. Westerners should not take for granted that the whole world should think and act in the same way as them.

This doesn't mean I agree with the rules - but if a foreigner decides to live in a country with different values from him/herself, he/she has no right to complain when he/she is requested to obey regulations.
 
david b.
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 11:37 am

Most Americans think that when they travel to other countries, their customs, ideas travel with them. This is not true. When traveling to foreign countries, rather it be canada, SA, Mexico, England, Russia, you must respect their laws, customs, ideas and religions. IMHO, people do not understand that their country's idiology does not travel with them. You should show respect rather you like it or not.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
Guest

RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 1:48 pm

David...

thats not the issue. The issue is not that Americans are bitter over following "local customs".

The issue is that these "local customs" demonstrate that Saudi Arabia is an inward, closed-minded intolerant regime that deprives its women of equality, its people of freedom, and its children of adequate education.

Somehow, I'm not surprised you didn't catch that the first time around.

TNNH
 
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yyz717
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 1:53 pm

The issue is that these "local customs" demonstrate that Saudi Arabia is an inward, closed-minded intolerant regime that deprives its women of equality, its people of freedom, and its children of adequate education.

TNNH hits it on the head again! Well said!

Islam will continue to have a (deservedly) bad name in the liberal West as long as the standard-bearer Islamic nation (Saudi Arabia) continues to ignore & frown upon the legitimate religious & cultural habits of resident and visiting non-Muslims.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
david b.
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 1:57 pm


Somehow, I'm not surprised you didn't catch that the first time around.


Save the insults. I had enough from you. Anyway, It is their country. People who live there know what they are in for. They know that the government is closed-mined. They know that there is no freedom and everything is government controlled. They know that there is strong religious influence.
They know what they are getting into.

Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
david b.
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RE: So Much For The Peaceful Open Minded Saudi Muslims

Mon Nov 04, 2002 2:00 pm

Islam will continue to have a (deservedly) bad name in the liberal West as long as the standard-bearer Islamic nation (Saudi Arabia) continues to ignore & frown upon the legitimate religious & cultural habits of resident and visiting non-Muslims.

And knowing you, you want this to continue.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight

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