heavymetal
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Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Wed Nov 13, 2002 10:49 am

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/12/international/12CND-IRAN.html

Basically, the hardcore Islamist mullahs are going to hang a "reformist scholar" for speaking out against them. Thousands of Iranian students in Tehran and other cities are marching for a fourth straight day in protest...the whole story is provided in the link (free registration required for NYTimes access)...but check out this excerpt:

After their rally in Tehran, students marched through the huge university campus, holding hands and singing "Ey Iran," the national anthem before the 1979 Islamic revolution.

It goes without saying the irony is pooling up in huge lakes here. The mideast's march back to the 11th Century could be stopped in its' tracks by exposing what that trip did to one of the region's largest countrys.

Has the West found allies in (gulp) .....chanting Iranian students?


 
david b.
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Wed Nov 13, 2002 11:08 am

I say this is good news. Maybe they will revolt, take the Islamic mullahs and hang them.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
Marco
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Wed Nov 13, 2002 11:35 am

Iranians are great people. Most of them are open-minded and are against the current fundamentalist government. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a revolution in the next few years!
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Wed Nov 13, 2002 12:52 pm

I think the Iranian people are tired of the "Islamic Revolution" that was brought to them by Mr. Nuts, the Ayatollah Khomeini. They certainly don't want what they "had" under the Shah, but they are tired of these mostly old men telling them how they should live.

Are they ripe for revolution? Remains to be seen. But the seeds are there. And does that mean they'll be an ally of the west? That's problematical-I think most likely, Iran tries to become a strong voice in what used to be called the "non-aligned" countries. I most certainly think an Iran free of the mullah's will probably not side with terrorists. But time will tell.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:00 pm

I think the Iranian people are tired of the "Islamic Revolution"

Well, it certainly impoverished them. Their high-water mark for economic progress was in 78/79 in the last days of the Shah.

Alpha....nice to see you back man.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Rai
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:31 pm

I wouldn’t read too much into these protests. The same thing happened in 1999 of the same, if not bigger magnitude, and only a few “laws” resulted. Nothing’s really changed in Iran since then. I think the mullah’s are letting this thing stand to show the world that they “tolerate” dissent.

A friend of mine recently immigrated from Iran. Super nice guy with an absolutely gorgeous wife (Iranian girls rock!  Big thumbs up). He was saying that he and his relatives are not at all happy with the state of things in their country and that the discontent is growing.

Iranians are very educated, tolerant and very reasonable people. It’s very sad that this regime is in control of things and suffocating this country out of its potential. Iran would be the powerhouse of the Mid East if it had a government that promoted tolerance and progress. An Iran under different leadership would also be a significant blow to terrorism (they are the primary sponsor of Hezbollah) and the Islamic fundamentalist movement. After all, it is the Islamic base of the Iranian government that these fundamentalists try to pattern themselves and their aspirations after.
 
Guest

RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:37 pm

I think the mullah’s are letting this thing stand to show the world that they “tolerate” dissent.

I don't. Khomeini threatened to unleash the "popular foces" (aka "armed forces") to stop the protests if they do not end quickly. Not exactly a sign of tolerance.

I wouldn’t read too much into these protests.

Lou, I think this is one of the best things in the world.

TNNH

 
Rai
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Wed Nov 13, 2002 2:00 pm

Lou, I think this is one of the best things in the world.

I certainly wouldn’t argue against that, Russ. I believe that that the fall of this regime will be the single most important victory in the war on terrorism. As I mentioned before, it abolishes the founding and the foundation of Islamic militancy. The successful reign of this government has been the continuing fuel and inspiration for the fundamentalists; even though they practice a different sect of Islam and that they are Arabs. The fact that such a state exists is motivation enough.

It’s just that we’ve seen this before and it’s produced lackluster results. I do hope that it leads up to something because it would totally benefit the region and maybe spawn a new type of revolution in the Mid East. One with perhaps better consequences.
 
FlyVirgin744
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Thu Nov 14, 2002 4:26 am

Iranian girls rock!

Here ya go Rai:

http://sage-hearts.com/geo/Iran.html
Sometimes I go about in pity for myself and all the while a great wind carries me across the sky.
 
Guest

RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Thu Nov 14, 2002 4:51 am

TNNH says:

"""Just sit tight and wait for the chorus of anti-everything, socialist, hypocrites on here reminding us that America kills Muslims for sport and that at least the Islamic world is better off than sub-Saharan Africa.

TNNH""

Why do I finally come to the conlcusion that perhaps you have a real thought in your head? Seriously though, Islam as a religion is incredibly backward and sad for the people that have been brainwashed by it. I don't agree with any organised religion whatsoever, it's supposed to be based on love but is always invariably based on hate (or contrued in that manner). Any religion (inlcuding Catholicism) that makes women second class citizens has to be purged out of modern society.

Hopefully the modern people in Iran will revolt against such things, but I feel for them.

Imagine if the these people of the Middle East took an image of themselves and developed things to the state that Malaysia is today? Not perfect but a hell of a lot better.

The sooner we outlaw religion period, separate from state, the better the world will be.

And now I make my statement of intent.

"""Islam, in it's most fundamental ways is an evil back-water of repression and uncivility. The sooner we stamp it out or modify or drag it into the 21st century the better."""

The strange thing is with all religions, they are driven by men. Think about that.

mb

religion=evil
 
Lindy
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Thu Nov 14, 2002 5:15 am

What was the topic about? hmmm hehehe
Damn you people. I went to that link with women and I spent last 40 minutes searching ladies hehehe
There is one great girl from Liverpool UK and she's willing to relocate to USA.
Well, first I would have to relocate my girlfriend to SC hehehehe

Rafal
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Lindy
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Thu Nov 14, 2002 5:19 am

I forgot to say that Iranian people in general are ok. I've been living with one past 6 years. Never had even one fight with him. Well, because in part he is my brother in law hehehe
And yes, they are very educated. 70% of his iranian friends have Master Degree or PHD.

Rafal
BWIADCA - Nikon D100
 
david b.
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Thu Nov 14, 2002 5:27 am

In-laws do nothing more then take up space Big thumbs up
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
747-451
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Thu Nov 14, 2002 6:22 am

A few months back, 60 Minutes did a story about students in Iran; and how they want Iran to change into a more modern country. One of the points of they brought out is that the students that are marching now were infants or very young when the "revolution" happened and they feel that occurance wasn't really for the best...
 
N79969
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Thu Nov 14, 2002 6:38 am

It is interesting to note that the country with most anti-American government has the most pro-American population in the Middle East. While the most pro-American regimes govern the most anti-American populaces (Saudia Arabia and Egypt). Observation of Thomas Friedman and not my own.

I do not think that there is anything inherently backward or intolerant about Islam. Rather, it has not undergone anything like the Protest Reformation or the Age of Enlightment. I think the Arab-Muslim world of today is like Germany in 1931. A chaotic place with a some really bad people with bad ideas clamoring for power.

I think a day will come when Iran will again become a US ally but the day is a ways off.

I disagree that religion=evil. Some of the most heinous acts ever have been committed by the atheist regimes in the Soviet Union and China.
 
FDXmech
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Thu Nov 14, 2002 7:38 am

>>>The sooner we outlaw religion period, separate from state, the better the world will be.<<<

Ironically, the anti-religious appear to me to be a religion unto themselves. The un-religion fundamentalists are as zealously intolerant toward any and every religion or any psuedo religious symbol (eg. Christmas tree at town hall) no matter how innocuous (sp.). How do you outlaw religion? Do you reeducate or indoctrinate the masses to the un-religious specification, do you pull suspected religious citizens from their homes at midnight. This forum appears to me having several potential candidates for the "thought police", scary.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
747-451
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Thu Nov 14, 2002 7:54 am

Ironically, the anti-religious appear to me to be a religion unto themselves.

How true!

Actually, any "movement" followed with complete devotion is like one. Nazism is a perfect example--Hitler elevated to "god like stauts" and the movement follwed with such zeal. It had nothing to do with a "god", "diety" et al but it practiced "religiously".

With such devotion, any "practice" can be "religious" as far as devotion to their practice; vegitarianism, athieism etc etc.

"The un-religion fundamentalists are as zealously intolerant toward any and every religion or any psuedo religious symbol (eg. Christmas tree at town hall) no matter how innocuous (sp.). How do you outlaw religion? Do you reeducate or indoctrinate the masses to the un-religious specification, do you pull suspected religious citizens from their homes at midnight. This forum appears to me having several potential candidates for the "thought police", scary"

I agree again, it is interesting how intolerant some people are and this sort of "cleansing" public areas of anything spiritual is offensive. And like anything "offensive" just look away and ignore it. I am agnostic, but I respect the fact that people can be comforted in spiritual devotion and wish to have symbols around them or in public, I also respect those symbols because they are meaningful to those people who do practice because I know they are so menaingful to them--and I know that it is not done as an affront to me. I would hope that others would be more accepting of "alternative lifestyles" when it comes to religion among other things...
 
Rai
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:09 am

Ironically, the anti-religious appear to me to be a religion unto themselves.

Actually, I think the most ironic thing of all is that it is the anti-religious who are the first to step up and defend religious-based violence (in this case, Islamic-based terrorism). Just look at this forum!  Laugh out loud
 
Guest

RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:49 am

It is interesting to note that the country with most anti-American government has the most pro-American population in the Middle East. While the most pro-American regimes govern the most anti-American populaces (Saudia Arabia and Egypt). Observation of Thomas Friedman and not my own.

Isn't he brilliant?

Tom Friedman for president
 
david b.
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Thu Nov 14, 2002 9:27 am

LOL  Big thumbs up

He'll never win.....
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
KRIC777
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Thu Nov 14, 2002 9:30 am

The growing discontent among the youth of Iran (who significantly make up a huge proportion of the population there) is a great thing for nearly everyone.

If the fundamentalist regime could be toppled someday, a friendly, relatively secular (compared to now, anyway) Iran would be an invaluable ally for the USA/UK in particular, and the West in general. Unlike trying to rebuild say, Iraq or Afghanistan, Iran already has a large, well-educated professional-class of doctors, engineers, etc. living abroad right now that could help to lead the country. And their petroleum reserves would mean some income for the country while a competetive industrial base is established.
I'm not an expert on the Middle East, but my understanding is that on an ethnic level, there has traditionally been little love lost between the pro-Western, Farsi-speaking Iranians and the Arab countries (e.g. Saudi, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, etc)...Not much that bonds them culturally except for Islam and petroleum. An allied, progressive Iran would be an invaluable partner in stabilizing the Middle East...at the very least a far better "ally" than the House of Saud, and could quickly become by far the wealthiest and most powerful nation in the region. The Iranians have always been more tolerant of non-Muslims than the Arab states. Even now, I believe there are sizable communities of Christians and Jews in Iran who are quietly tolerated.

Also, I think I have read that even though the current regime supports Hezbollah and spouts the requisite anti-Zionist rhetoric, the Iranians historically have even had much better relations with Israel than the Arab countries.

If the Iranian people are able to cast off the cabal that are in power now, the West should embrace that country like a long lost lover. But the key would be to help the Iranians set up a democratic, progressive government..not simply another Shah. It is against the Pahlavi (sp?) regime, after all, that fundamentalist Islam appeared an attractive alternative  Sad
I think a Middle East with two friendly, regionally strong, relatively democratic countries like Turkey and potentially Iran, which were cordial with Israel, would be much more stable than it is today. That's not to say the same problems wouldn't exist, but progressive, democratic interests would have considerably more leverage.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Thu Nov 14, 2002 12:19 pm

religion=evil

Wrong, Mx5_boy. Perversion of religion=evil. There's nothing basically evil about religion.

 
Guest

RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Thu Nov 14, 2002 12:38 pm

Welcome back Alpha.

Great to see you again.
 
Guest

RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:57 pm

What has to be noted with Iran today, is that it has a reformist government (led by Khatami). His government was elected under promises to reform the economy of the country. However, he hasn't been able to do this. And it isn't the Ayatollah who is stopping it; it is the even more hardline judiciary which is stopping reforms from going thru.

The Ayatollah has stated that if both parties can't break the current impasse, that steps will be taken. What these steps are are not known, but it is assumed that both the government and the judiciary will be sacked. Ayatollah Khamenei (NOT Khomenei...he died years ago) seems to realise that Iran is going forward; their economy is expanding and are taking to the international stage again, even with the Islamic Republic currently in place. Reforms are able to be introduced within the framework of the Islamic Republic, and he seems committed to this.

But he does need to reign in the hardline judiciary if future reforms are to work for the good of the Iranian people.

Why is everyone so against the idea of an Islamic Republic in Iran? They are far from perfect, yes, but the people have a right to vote for the government. And it was a popular revolution which swept the Islamic clergy into power in Iran, anything would be better than living under the Shah and his murderous SAVAK, where human rights were even less than in present day Iran. People bitch about the Islamic Republic, and that the people have no freedoms and are ruled by religion. Couldn't the same thing be said about the Vatican? The pope isn't popularly elected; the people are forced to live their lives under strict religious rules; etc. I think it is just biase against the Islamic religion which gets some people going.

Kric777....Iran already is by far the richest and most powerful nation in the Middle East. The economy is twice as large as Saudi Arabia. 4 times as large as Israel. It is also the most powerful military force in the Middle East, particularly in terms of manpower.
 
cfalk
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Thu Nov 14, 2002 9:19 pm

And it isn't the Ayatollah who is stopping it; it is the even more hardline judiciary which is stopping reforms from going thru.

And who do you think is behind the judiciary? They are mullahs and ayatollahs themselves.

How would you feel if in your home country you had to behave as a Muslim, even if you were not? Your wife must wear a veil, and cannot leave the house unescorted by a family member. Your taxes are used to fund bombs to blow up people in restaurants and cafés. You have to stop whatever you are doing 5 or 6 times per day to pray in the prescribed manner. If you fail in any of these and other duties, you can be imprisoned or executed as an apostate. You would not like that, would you?

The "popular revolution", similarly with many revolutions in history, was less pro-religious extremism but more a rejection of the previously existing order. Sure, maybe the Ayatollahs are better than the Shah for many people, but it's like comparing Hitler and Kaiser Wilhelm II. Both were utter bastards intent on power.

Couldn't the same thing be said about the Vatican? The pope isn't popularly elected; the people are forced to live their lives under strict religious rules; etc.

What a lot of horsecrap! If you don't like living in the Vatican, just move across the street! Nothing prevents anyone from not living according to canon law, if they don't feel like it. Nobody forces women into nun's outfits. In fact, I'm pretty sure that rent and other costs are probably cheaper outside the Vatican. In the end, all the people who live at the Vatican are there because they WANT to be. It's just a city block, with no border controls.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Thu Nov 14, 2002 10:39 pm

Iran already is by far the richest and most powerful nation in the Middle East. The economy is ....... 4 times as large as Israel.

more horseshit. Firstoff, like Saudi Arabia, Iran's national wealth is derived from one source, oil. When the Iranians learn to tap the talents of their people rather than their sand dunes - then they can rightfully hold the title "richest and most powerful nation in the Middle East".

Until then they're nothing because politics in countries dependent on oil (like Iran and Saudi Arabia) becomes totally focused on who controls the oil revenues -- rather than on how to improve the skills and education of both their men and women, how to build a rule of law and a legitimate state in which people feel some ownership, and how to build an honest economy that is open and attractive to investors.

In short, Iran can survive as long as it just drills a hole in the right sand dune. Israel (GDP Per capita over 3 times Iran's) survives and prospers by drilling it's people's minds and unlocking their creative energies with the keys of freedom.

TNNH
 
Marco
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Thu Nov 14, 2002 11:47 pm

Iran already is by far the richest and most powerful nation in the Middle East. The economy is ....... 4 times as large as Israel

Iran is a very poor country with a very small middle class, which is why so many Iranians have immigrated over the years (600,000 alone live in the LA area).

The economy may be bigger than that of Israel but you have to take into considersation the population of the country. It is probably 10/12 times as big as Israel! So in the end Israel is a richer country. The UAE is richer. Qatar is richer. Bahrain is richer.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Thu Nov 14, 2002 11:49 pm

Has anyone noticed that no matter what the subject Rai always manages to give his opinion on the desirability of the local ladies in question ? Someone needs action me thinks ...

TNNH you are amazing. Any thing bad happens to jews and you blame it on inherent anti-semitism the world over, anything positive they achieve though is due solely to their innate characteristics as a people.

If it were not for US government help, outright theft of others land and livelyhoods and remittances from abroad Israel would be just another banana republic !

PS the subject is Iran ! Start another thread about the miracle in the desert and I can safely ignore it.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
Guest

RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Fri Nov 15, 2002 12:01 am

TNNH

Whether Iran has 1 million or 100 million people it is still the richest country in the Middle East. Why is it that America is the richest country in the world, when in fact on a per capita basis Luxembourg is richer. Based on actual GDP, Iran is the richest in the Middle East. And 85% of Iranian exports are made up of oil, but 50% of their economy is based on either agriculture or service related industries. Whether the Iranians are tapping into the intellect or not (which they are actually) is not relevant. There is no country in the Middle East which comes as close to the scale of the Iranian economy or military.

Cfalk

Well obviously mate, but my comment was not meant as a wide-ranging assumption. But remember, the people of Iran chose the Islamic Republic thru the Revolution in 1979.

And you are right. The Ayatollah and the Shah are the same. The only difference is that one had the support (military and economic) of certain countries, the other didn't.
 
david b.
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Fri Nov 15, 2002 12:41 am

Has anyone noticed that no matter what the subject Rai always manages to give his opinion on the desirability of the local ladies in question ? Someone needs action me thinks ...

What is wrong with that Big grin

TNNH you are amazing. Any thing bad happens to jews and you blame it on inherent anti-semitism the world over, anything positive they achieve though is due solely to their innate characteristics as a people.

If it were not for US government help, outright theft of others land and livelyhoods and remittances from abroad Israel would be just another banana republic !


DAMN RIGHT  Big thumbs up 3 billion dollars a year. 1 billion more then Egypt.

Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
Guest

RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Fri Nov 15, 2002 2:11 am

Whether the Iranians are tapping into the intellect or not is not relevant.

Oh how wrong you are! It is everything relevant.
 
cfalk
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Fri Nov 15, 2002 2:55 am

But remember, the people of Iran chose the Islamic Republic thru the Revolution in 1979.

No they didn't! They revolted AGAINST the Shah, not necessarily for an Islamic dictatorship. They would have followed Bozo the Clown if he would have stood up to the Shah. That was my point. The revolution was hijacked, just as the Bolsheviks hijacked the Russian Revolution in 1917.

Charles

The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
jaysit
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:25 am

TNNH:

Actually, Iran is not just a desert scape with sand dunes running across the country as some Americans would like to believe. And while the Mullahs are doing everything they can to stymie the creativity of their people, lets not forget that Iran is a modern remnant of Greater Persia which was one of the world's greatest civilizations. Persian architecture, literature, music, and art are evidence to that claim. To that effect, Iran still churns out millions of incredibly well-educated people every year, in spite of the Mullahs craven mind control rules.

I bet if the mullahs were locked up, and Iran received the same level of financial assistance that Israel does per capita, you would see one of the most flourishing nations in the world.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
david b.
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:57 am

Actually, Iran is not just a desert scape with sand dunes running across the country as some Americans would like to believe. And while the Mullahs are doing everything they can to stymie the creativity of their people, lets not forget that Iran is a modern remnant of Greater Persia which was one of the world's greatest civilizations. Persian architecture, literature, music, and art are evidence to that claim. To that effect, Iran still churns out millions of incredibly well-educated people every year, in spite of the Mullahs craven mind control rules.

I bet if the mullahs were locked up, and Iran received the same level of financial assistance that Israel does per capita, you would see one of the most flourishing nations in the world.


DAMN STRAIGHT  Big thumbs up
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
Guest

RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Fri Nov 15, 2002 11:06 am

I bet if the mullahs were locked up, and Iran received the same level of financial assistance that Israel does per capita, you would see one of the most flourishing nations in the world.

IF IF IF IF.

Your comments would suggest that the Israelis were just handed their success on a silver platter - that the American aide was just an automatic handout that Israel had to do nothing but ask kindly for. Hardly. The fact is that like all realities in the middle east- Israel struggled as much as anyone (if not more) to build what it's built and to achieve what it's achieved -- including persuading the world's sole superpower to support her.

For whatever reason or excuse you may come up with, Iran has completely failed to achieve a similar outcome - completely incapable of building a similar if not more succesful society. Who created the mullahs? Who installed them in power? Who allowed them to rule for 20 years? When Iran was doing that - Israel was building most sucessful high-tech society the middle east has ever seen in whichever way it could.

Iran has no one to blame other than herself.

TNNH
 
cfalk
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RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Fri Nov 15, 2002 10:52 pm

Your comments would suggest that the Israelis were just handed their success on a silver platter - that the American aide was just an automatic handout that Israel had to do nothing but ask kindly for. Hardly. The fact is that like all realities in the middle east- Israel struggled as much as anyone (if not more) to build what it's built and to achieve what it's achieved -- including persuading the world's sole superpower to support her.

Also, I don't think that the U.S. started giving a lot of assistance to Israel until AFTER the local Arab countries had started to attack Israel -several times. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think U.S. aid really started around the time of the 1967 war, and the rationale was that Israel was a beseiged democratic state with enemies on all sides.

So if that's the case, that the traditional complaint by Arabs that Islam must fight America because of its support for Israel is bollocks, because it was Arab hostility to Israel that created American support for Israel in the first place.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: Protests Growing In Iran. Guess Why?

Sat Nov 16, 2002 7:11 am

Absolutely Charles. In fact in 1967, the US demanded Israel not take any corrective steps after Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping (an act of war according to the 1956 armistice).

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