lehpron
Posts: 6846
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:42 am

How Is US Stealth Compared To French Stealth...

Tue Nov 26, 2002 11:47 am

...with regards to their naval vessels?

I read this article recently, I don't know how long it was out but it is new to me. I am not worried but it is not something I expected, it was somewhat disturbing. The title of the article is "Saudi Navy Take Delivery Of First 'Stealth Frigate'". Pertaining to the french La Fayette class of stealth frigates, do we have any besides the experimental Sea Shadow?

http://www.rense.com/general28/stealth.htm
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13173
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: How Is US Stealth Compared To French Stealth...

Tue Nov 26, 2002 12:04 pm

It might be stealth to surface ships/ aircraft, but not to US attack subs below.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: How Is US Stealth Compared To French Stealth...

Tue Nov 26, 2002 12:30 pm

Incorrect STT757

As far as a large vessel can be stealthy (and that is a strictly limited distance) it would be far more successful at it versus submarines dependant on sonar/sound for detection rather than aircraft/other ships depenedant on radar or visual. You cannot really compare the concept of a stealth plane and a stealth ship, they are 2 different beasts

Non-metallic composite hull materials, back-up electric or aqua-jet engines and ever improving passive sonar have been around for some time and just keep getting better.

Since these ships would be ASW vessels anyway I doubt a US or any submarine would get too close, they have other fish to fry !

Lephron - You cannot really compare the concept of a stealth plane and a stealth ship, they are 2 different beasts. with the ships it is much more a case of sound and radar signature reduction than of being stealthy. Perhaps in the future but not yet.

I have always wanted to be the guy who 'suggests' a different forum for a post but since this about ships not aircraft this is as good a place as any I suppose.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: How Is US Stealth Compared To French Stealth...

Tue Nov 26, 2002 9:24 pm

Having read that article again I think a far more interesting question is why the Saudi's would want ships like these at all ?

The need for advanced AAW ships and internal systems I can easily understand but the emphasis placed in the article on these ships range and seaworthiness are odd.

The Saudi navy operates in the Persian Gulf and Red Sea. Like any military equipment what is bought (hopefully) coincides with the particular needs of the user. What need of long range open ocean vessels does SA have ? Previous naval equipment they have bought concentrated putting the most bang on the smallest and cheapest hull and this was appropriate to where they would be operating having no need to waste space and expense on unnecessary range or sea going ability.

Anyone know what the motivation behind this latest purchase might be ?
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
GDB
Posts: 12652
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: How Is US Stealth Compared To French Stealth...

Wed Nov 27, 2002 1:54 am

If you do a websearch, you'll find that this class of Frigate, fairly lightly armed, were designed for the French Navy for 'out of area' patrolling, they've been exported to Taiwan and Saudi Arabia.
Calling them 'stealthy' is a stretch, they have features designed to make them less observable to IR and radar, but not invisible or anywhere near.
So they are a bit like the Royal Navy's Type 23 frigates, maybe taking the idea a bit further on the newer, smaller French ship.
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: How Is US Stealth Compared To French Stealth...

Wed Nov 27, 2002 12:35 pm

I believe you are all referring to the LaFayette Class Frigates of the French Navy.

More info can be found at Navaltechnology.com...

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/lafayette/index.html

Enjoy!

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: How Is US Stealth Compared To French Stealth...

Wed Nov 27, 2002 12:41 pm

Oh yes, France did deliver LaFayette class frigates to Taiwan, but over there, they are called Kang Ding Class...

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/fayette/index.html

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: How Is US Stealth Compared To French Stealth...

Wed Nov 27, 2002 12:50 pm

Still waiting for theories on why the Saudi's are buying new ships with

'out of area' patrolling

capability ?
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: How Is US Stealth Compared To French Stealth...

Wed Nov 27, 2002 1:01 pm

Current political tensions perhaps. I wouldn't be surprised to find one of those backstabbing Middle Eastern countries building armadas to duel with the USN. We all know of China's new J10 fighter-jet, courtesy of Israel, with US technology.  Insane

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
Omegous
Posts: 285
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:09 pm

RE: How Is US Stealth Compared To French Stealth...

Wed Nov 27, 2002 1:21 pm

I don't hace much faith in French Naval technology.

Last I heard the new $3 billion carrier (I think it was??) they built suffers a power drain when launching aircraft AND that the aircraft they designed it for CAN'T LAND on the damn thing!

Hmm...

 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: How Is US Stealth Compared To French Stealth...

Wed Nov 27, 2002 1:27 pm

You are referring to the Chales De Gaulle nuclear powered carrier. Take a look at the last pic in this link, looks like the Rafale Ms can land on them quite well. I'm not sure about the power drain thing though.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/gaulle/index.html

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
b757300
Posts: 3914
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:27 pm

RE: How Is US Stealth Compared To French Stealth...

Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:20 pm

The Charles De Gaulle is still going through some "teething" problems but it shouldn't be a surprise considering that it is the first of its class and the first French nuclear powered carrier. It is interesting that France is the only nation in the world other than the United States to operate a full deck, conventional carrier. The Russians have one but it rarely leaves port. There are reports the French might build a second carrier and with the name Richelieu being suggested.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: How Is US Stealth Compared To French Stealth...

Wed Nov 27, 2002 4:48 pm

The Saudis want them because the Iranian navy has recently taken delivery of the first of several ex-Soviet Kilo class submarines. Those are the first subs in the region (at least the first owned by countries in the region) and are an obvious threat to free shipping (at least to countries opposed to Iran which is just about anyone).
I wish I were flying
 
GDB
Posts: 12652
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: How Is US Stealth Compared To French Stealth...

Wed Nov 27, 2002 7:10 pm

'Out of area' in a NATO context means general patrolling, unlike say being optimised for anti-sub warfare, so ideal for the Saudis as these vessels are in effect large patrol boats.
I wonder if the crew of the USS Stark still has 'no faith in French naval technology', (the ship was hit by AM-39 Exocet missiles fired from an Iraqi Mirage F1 in 1987).
And unlike the RN in the Falklands war, the US ship had a Phanlax radar guided gun, (which the RN brought after the 1982 conflict).
If the US vessel had been out at sea rather than in the Gulf, near a port, probably it would have sunk.
The new French carrier seems to have been fixed, they certainly need a second one though.
The airgroup is made up of the new Rafale aircraft, later two-seat attack optimised versions will replace the remaining Super Etendards, the carrier also carries E-2C Hawkeys for AEW, and helicopters.
From 2012, the RN will get back in the big carrier business, when the CVF 1 is commissioned, the airgroup will be 24 - 48 F-35Bs, plus 6-12 helicopters for ASW/SAR/AEW. (Though a VSTOL ship, it will have provision for catapult/arrester wire fitment, so E-2C may yet be ordered).
A second will follow in 2015. Orders for both ships will be expected early next year, they will displace 60,000 tons.
It will interesting to see if 'steathly' features will be a part of CVF design, artists impressions seen to indicate they will-but not easy to make a ship of this size a low-observable.
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: How Is US Stealth Compared To French Stealth...

Wed Nov 27, 2002 7:12 pm

Those Phalanx guns tend to work better when they are turned on.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
GDB
Posts: 12652
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: How Is US Stealth Compared To French Stealth...

Thu Nov 28, 2002 12:43 am

They were not on? In a conflict zone?
(The RN nicknamed the Phanlax 'Daleks' after the killer robots in the 1960-70's Sci-Fi series 'Dr Who').
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: How Is US Stealth Compared To French Stealth...

Thu Nov 28, 2002 1:16 am

There´s a Swedish version as well, check out www.kockums.se and look for Visby.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
TWAL1011
Posts: 2317
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2003 12:39 pm

RE: How Is US Stealth Compared To French Stealth...

Thu Nov 28, 2002 3:50 am

I wonder if the crew of the USS Stark still has 'no faith in French naval technology'

Probably a totally different crew by now, don't you think?  Insane
 
GDB
Posts: 12652
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: How Is US Stealth Compared To French Stealth...

Thu Nov 28, 2002 7:01 am

Is the ship still in commission? I know it was repaired after the attack, wouldn't crews be told something their vessel's history?
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: How Is US Stealth Compared To French Stealth...

Thu Nov 28, 2002 12:00 pm

I am sure any subsequent crews where well aware of the ships history.

http://www.usswaddell.com/Memories/uss_stark.htm

According to this database the ship was decommisioned in 1999. It was one of the short hull Perry class ships and most of those have been drummed out of service. I don't belive they are able to accomodate the Seahawk helicopters and only one hanger on board was usuable in recent years on those ships due to some sort of structural issue.

http://www.geocities.com/usshipstark/History_all.htm

http://www.navsource.org/archives/07/0731.htm

Here is a more detailed write up. Note that there is some conterversy on the operational status of the ships phlanx gun. Also note that on the Stark it is mounted over the top of the hanger deck and I wonder if it could be trained far enough forward to engage the missles based on where they hit on the ship.

http://eightiesclub.tripod.com/id280.htm

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 910A, Baidu [Spider] and 30 guests